No excuses for Ken Dorsey this year

[Rich Stadium Original]

Without doing a deep dive analysis of Dorseys play calling, I think the offense was strapped by poor execution of the offensive line. When runs were called on first and second down it was usually for minimal gain, leaving the team in 3rd and long, limiting what was available from the playbook.

When passes were called, I think Allen experienced one of the highest pressure rates in the league. He was rarley comfortable in the pocket getting through all his progressions, and was either throwing it sooner than he wanted, or took off running. I think we all remember games where Brown looked like a turnstile out there.

In some games, Diggs would be double covered, particularly over the top, and NOBODY else was getting open...do I even need to bring up drops??

There is a lot that really needs to be cleaned up before you can criticize the play calling specifically.

[Taro Nimbus]

And to think.  The Bills went 13-3 under Dorsey’s first year as OC, and statistically had one of the best years in Bills history Offensively.   Yeah, sure they had a couple of off games, but just imagine what they can do in year 2.  

[Meatloaf63]

On 4/28/2023 at 3:51 PM, Rc2catch said:

Knox was open quite a bit. Doesn’t matter if he’s not targeted. Same goes for Kincaid or shakir or cook or whoever is running shorter routes within 15 yards of the line that josh doesn’t even look at. Some of those guys are winning their matchups but josh is 30 yards downfield hunting the big play. I have to believe as they go over footage Josh is seeing all these easy plays he gave away looking for the big ones. 

I certainly hope so. Fixing that problem alone will have a great impact on this team.

[Coldfronts]

On 4/28/2023 at 3:08 PM, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

Dorkey ?

yes

[hondo in seattle]

This is what Lil Dirty said about the Cinci game...

 

“The Bengals ran basic routes, maybe we should’ve did that, ran basic routes.  Like out routes, go balls, you know, instead of running routes that you have to be going lateral or coming back to the football, or turning and running curls and things like that. If we were in a dome it would have been a totally different game.”

 

Doesn't speak highly of Dorsey's game-planning and play-calling. 

[AuntieEm]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:57 PM, Bangarang said:

This reminds me, we need a nickname for Dorsey. 

 

I say the nickname has to begin with the letter K to tie In with having to develop plays for  2 te sets with out DK tes.  Dawson Knox, Duncan Kincaid and Dorsey K....   I guess his nickname shall be Kenny.  But they also need to change Billy Buffalo to the nickname Frosty.  Then if Dorsey can't get the offense over the hump in the playoffs we can all dress up as Southpark characters and march behind Frosty shouting  Frosty Kill Kenny.  Days of protesting with torches and pitchforks is so old school we need to bring the Mafia protests into the modern era.  

 

 

The above is just satire as I do not hold Dorsey responsible for the lack of adjustments with all the distractions that the team dealt with.  It truly was everything but the Kitchen Sink last year.  So that makes me chose 2 nicknames for Dorsey.  If he fails its the above Kenny  but if he succeeds and turns the Bills into the next unstoppable force he gets the nickname Kitchensink  and if he schemes in Cook as well with the 2 tes then it's really a triple dks offense.  

 

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by AuntieEm

[Matt_In_NH]

I remember these same threads every year about Dabol.   

Bills were second in yards and points and first in third down conversion.   Sure there is room for improvement and we can talk about this guy getting more or that guy getting more but expecting a ton more output overall might be unrealistic.  

[AuntieEm]

7 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

This is what Lil Dirty said about the Cinci game...

 

“The Bengals ran basic routes, maybe we should’ve did that, ran basic routes.  Like out routes, go balls, you know, instead of running routes that you have to be going lateral or coming back to the football, or turning and running curls and things like that. If we were in a dome it would have been a totally different game.”

 

Doesn't speak highly of Dorsey's game-planning and play-calling. 

 

What I took out of that quote was doesn't speak highly of the effort a face of the franchise wanna be put in for such an important game.  When you got full effort guys like Diggs and Josh  you better be modifying your play to match the effort of the real faces of the franchise.  The running lateral was needed when the oline couldn't keep the rush away from Josh.  

 

That's me though I tend to place the execution of plays more on the players than on the design because if the player is focused and understands his role then he can adapt in game situations when a play gets blown up.  It's why Gabe and Knox both improved their awareness when Josh extends plays.  Problem was Josh stopped hitting the players open in middle after he injured his throwing arm.  

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

31 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I remember these same threads every year about Dabol.   

Bills were second in yards and points and first in third down conversion.   Sure there is room for improvement and we can talk about this guy getting more or that guy getting more but expecting a ton more output overall might be unrealistic.  

I don’t understand what fans want from the guy? The bar is really high. The whole season counts. Yes they struggled in the 2nd half of the season. There are so many reasons

for the struggles. Dorsey is one of the reasons, but not the reason.

[fergie's ire]

Last year, the Bills had a TE group that consisted of a player with a history of concentration problems who had just suddenly lost his little brother, an undrafted free agent, and a 7th rounder that they eventually let go.  It is shocking that Dorsey could not do more with that group and he should have been fired immediately.

[Fleezoid]

The Bills offense statistically was very good. However, to me, it failed the eye test. It just looked stale compared to Daboll's offense.

 

With that said, I'm hopeful the offseason is what Dorsey needed. They went heavy offense in the draft. Between the draft and signings, they focused on size at nearly every position, which, IMO was absolutely needed; bigger receivers, bigger RBs, bigger interior linemen. I think the running game is gonna get a big boost.

 

“If they want you to cook the dinner, at least they ought to let you shop for some of the groceries.”

— Bill Parcells

 

My hope is that a lot of these offseason moves has Dorsey's fingerprints all over 'em.  I'm counting on a better balanced and more creative scheme.  Time will tell, but yeah, if the offense flops this year then the Bills should start looking elsewhere. 

[Fan in Chicago]

10 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

This is what Lil Dirty said about the Cinci game...

 

“The Bengals ran basic routes, maybe we should’ve did that, ran basic routes.  Like out routes, go balls, you know, instead of running routes that you have to be going lateral or coming back to the football, or turning and running curls and things like that. If we were in a dome it would have been a totally different game.”

 

Doesn't speak highly of Dorsey's game-planning and play-calling. 

I dont put much credence on his comments regarding game planning, play design and selection of routes. He should have stuck to describing what he was told to do and then what he actually did/not do. 

 

Overall - the entire team was just off, deflated and unmotivated. I dont think any amount of game planning would have overcome that. In a playoff game, you have to come with everything you got. The Bills did not. It was one of the most baffling games in the McBeane reign. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by Fan in Chicago

[ddaryl]

Allowing a rookie OC to take the reins of team fully in their SB window was a big gamble.... but one Allen endorsed and wanted.

Add in Beanes blatant avoidance of actually finding improvements along the OL and over focusing those resources on D was just as big of a gamble. Especially when you have a rooie OC and a top highly paid QB.

 

lots of gambling last year and we left the casino busted

Edited May 19, 2023 by ddaryl

[C.Biscuit97]

Honestly, what did people expect from a guy who has never been an OC before? Blame McDermott for making him the OC but it’s wild the expectations some have. “I know you have never done this job but you need to be awesome at it right away. “

It’s hindsight, but since he left LC, Bienemy would have been a helluva a hire. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I mean, y’all realize the offense was actually really good last year, right? 

[ddaryl]

5 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I mean, y’all realize the offense was actually really good last year, right? 

 

 

good but inconsistent. If it wasn't for Allen balling out as much as he did we wouldn't be using the word good here. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

17 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

good but inconsistent. If it wasn't for Allen balling out as much as he did we wouldn't be using the word good here. 

He has areas to improve, no question, but this wasn’t a like a 14th rated Offense.

 

They were #1 in DVOA, Dorsey build a phenomenal foundation. Allen is a massive part, but they still did good things. 

[TheWeatherMan]

2 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

Dorsey is a bum. The offense is not at all imaginative and honestly they seem underprepared on Sundays. Daboll was a huge loss. 

 

 

I wouldn’t call him a bum, he looked like an above average first year OC to me.  Problem is, having a first year OC lead a SB caliber offense of a team poised to make a SB run probably wasn’t the brightest idea.  

[Don Otreply]

13 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

This is what Lil Dirty said about the Cinci game...

 

“The Bengals ran basic routes, maybe we should’ve did that, ran basic routes.  Like out routes, go balls, you know, instead of running routes that you have to be going lateral or coming back to the football, or turning and running curls and things like that. If we were in a dome it would have been a totally different game.”

 

Doesn't speak highly of Dorsey's game-planning and play-calling. 

KD had a notion of what he wanted to accomplish, but he was not as is said, reading the room, so to speak, with an O-line under performing as ours was, he needed to adapt, and not pretend that the line was going to be able to execute the plays he was calling. Here’s to KD learning how to read the room in a more effective fashion this upcoming season, 😁👍🍺

[GoBills808]

4 hours ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

good but inconsistent. If it wasn't for Allen balling out as much as he did we wouldn't be using the word good here. 

That's exactly the same as Daboll, except Daboll's offense was more inconsistent and relied on Allen more.

[newcam2012]

5 hours ago, SUNY_amherst said:

Dorsey is a bum. The offense is not at all imaginative and honestly they seem underprepared on Sundays. Daboll was a huge loss. 

 

 

I wouldn't call him a bum. However, his offense was elementary and lacked creativity. He really failed to utilize his weapons and the play calling was too predictable.

 

Of course, it wasn't all his fault but I feel he didn't put the Bills in the best position to excell. Imho, he was learning on the job. This year should tell us a lot. I think the Bills have new and improved weapons and an upgraded oline. He has to step it up. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by newcam2012

[GETTOTHE50]

Please establish plays where Josh is under center and hands off the ball.

 

Im going to lose my mind if I see run calls from the shotgun. 

[ddaryl]

28 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

That's exactly the same as Daboll, except Daboll's offense was more inconsistent and relied on Allen more.

 

 

I wasn't a huge fan of Daboll's O either, but he had a reliable outlet/scheme at slot when Beasley was healthy. He also knew how to set up and utilize McKenzie as a gadet player. 


I'm more of a fan of letting the short passes set up the long ball as well as making up for running game deficiencies. Something I really hoped Dorsey would improve upon. I hope that Kincaid is a difference maker here but it will come down to X's and O's.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

The Guards really limited a lot of what Dorsey could do.  Sure, he needs to improve creativity, but we have some added talent and speed this year.  We’ll see what happens.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

7 hours ago, ddaryl said:

Allowing a rookie OC to take the reins of team fully in their SB window was a big gamble.... but one Allen endorsed and wanted.

Add in Beanes blatant avoidance of actually finding improvements along the OL and over focusing those resources on D was just as big of a gamble. Especially when you have a rooie OC and a top highly paid QB.

 

lots of gambling last year and we left the casino busted

I really think Allen is too nice a guy to have objected.

 

I guess he knew Dorsey from being a QB coach and no way he was going to say anything negative.

[Sierra Foothills]

On 4/28/2023 at 10:55 AM, Logic said:

Crying and moaning and having ill-advised and misinformed kneejerk reactions is my absolute right as an American, darn it!

 

I fixed it for you.

 

On 4/28/2023 at 10:57 AM, Bangarang said:

This reminds me, we need a nickname for Dorsey. 

 

In recognition for him coaching Josh to push the ball downfield and disregard his open receivers underneath, I propose "Forsey."

 

On 4/28/2023 at 11:01 AM, NickelCity said:

He has to get better, and I hope the roster offers no excuses whatsoever, as Logic suggests. 

 

Logic or @Logic?

 

On 4/28/2023 at 11:09 AM, GoBills808 said:

LOL

 

Knox is so overrated by this board

 

he really doesn't do anything at a high level- can't block well, runs sloppy routes, just an average player overall

 

He is not a mismatch in any sense. Defenses aren't gameplanning Dawson Knox

 

Cue Gunner Bill in 5...

 

On 4/28/2023 at 1:07 PM, BillsVet said:

Dorsey's on the hot seat...but McDermott's isn't exactly cold either.  

 

Probably not a good indicator if Dorsey has a bad season because McD hired him with likely input from others.  And, having just fired Frazier, he can't afford to have Dorsey struggle in year 2.

 

All of that is in the future, but glad to see that they're focused on improving the offense and thus supporting Josh.

 

As @JakeFrommStateFarm posited, Josh was a big advocate for promoting Dorsey. Now Josh has the opportunity to make Dorsey look good or not. There's no question Josh is a top 3 QB... can he take the final step and win a Super Bowl? On paper it looks to me that there's enough talent to do so. Can Dorsey and Allen come through?

 

[finn]

Dorsey was doing well until Allen got hurt and the short-passing game was compromised. Meanwhile, he had turnstiles at guard and tackle and unreliable receivers besides Diggs. 

 

If you want to point fingers, point them at Beane for signing Saffold and putting his faith in Brown, McKenzie, and Davis. 

[ganesh]

3 minutes ago, finn said:

Dorsey was doing well until Allen got hurt and the short-passing game was compromised. Meanwhile, he had turnstiles at guard and tackle and unreliable receivers besides Diggs. 

 

If you want to point fingers, point them at Beane for signing Saffold and putting his faith in Brown, McKenzie, and Davis. 

this

[newcam2012]

On 5/19/2023 at 5:55 AM, ddaryl said:

Allowing a rookie OC to take the reins of team fully in their SB window was a big gamble.... but one Allen endorsed and wanted.

Add in Beanes blatant avoidance of actually finding improvements along the OL and over focusing those resources on D was just as big of a gamble. Especially when you have a rooie OC and a top highly paid QB.

 

lots of gambling last year and we left the casino busted

This is a really accurate post. 

[RunTheBall]

1 hour ago, finn said:

Dorsey was doing well until Allen got hurt and the short-passing game was compromised. Meanwhile, he had turnstiles at guard and tackle and unreliable receivers besides Diggs. 

 

If you want to point fingers, point them at Beane for signing Saffold and putting his faith in Brown, McKenzie, and Davis. 

I disagree. I think Dorsey had already been figured out at that point and had yet to adjust. The elbow injury just complicated matters.

 

By that time, teams knew our O-line was a sieve, Davis was a 2 trick pony with no ability to get separation in the short/intermediate areas, McKenize was a failure in the slot, and Dorsey would abandon the running game quick. So what did they do? Defenses knew they only had to jump the first 2 reads because by then someone on the O-line would have lost their individual battle and Josh would be forced into hero mode. They doubled Diggs consistently and just played Davis deeper knowing he wouldn’t get a short ball. The reason the O still produced is because Josh is just so damn good at hero mode that he consistently made things happen off structure. At times it seemed like Dorsey’s whole offense was “Make something happen Josh”. I’m very concerned about Dorsey’s ability to utilize all the weapons we have on this team.

 

 

[newcam2012]

20 minutes ago, RunTheBall said:

I disagree. I think Dorsey had already been figured out at that point and had yet to adjust. The elbow injury just complicated matters.

 

By that time, teams knew our O-line was a sieve, Davis was a 2 trick pony with no ability to get separation in the short/intermediate areas, McKenize was a failure in the slot, and Dorsey would abandon the running game quick. So what did they do? Defenses knew they only had to jump the first 2 reads because by then someone on the O-line would have lost their individual battle and Josh would be forced into hero mode. They doubled Diggs consistently and just played Davis deeper knowing he wouldn’t get a short ball. The reason the O still produced is because Josh is just so damn good at hero mode that he consistently made things happen off structure. At times it seemed like Dorsey’s whole offense was “Make something happen Josh”. I’m very concerned about Dorsey’s ability to utilize all the weapons we have on this team.

 

 

Really really solid post. Great breakdown on Dorsey and the Bills offense. 

[PrimeTime101]

3 hours ago, finn said:

Dorsey was doing well until Allen got hurt and the short-passing game was compromised. Meanwhile, he had turnstiles at guard and tackle and unreliable receivers besides Diggs. 

 

If you want to point fingers, point them at Beane for signing Saffold and putting his faith in Brown, McKenzie, and Davis. 

Hold on Now. Josh Allen hurt his elbow Nov. 6 game to the Jets. It was the Miami Game earlier that season, We lost to Miami do to some interesting play calling when Ken Dorsey threw a fit and tossed his clipboard. There were play call issues going on with Dorsey well before the elbow injury

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

59 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

Hold on Now. Josh Allen hurt his elbow Nov. 6 game to the Jets. It was the Miami Game earlier that season, We lost to Miami do to some interesting play calling when Ken Dorsey threw a fit and tossed his clipboard. There were play call issues going on with Dorsey well before the elbow injury

 

With about 2 minutes left Allen threw a ball in the dirt with a receiver wide open for the go ahead TD. Perfect play design.

 

IIRC, the offense put up over 500 yards in extreme heat and the Bills were greatly undermanned all over the roster. 

[Dr. K]

On 5/19/2023 at 1:59 PM, GoBills808 said:

That's exactly the same as Daboll, except Daboll's offense was more inconsistent and relied on Allen more.

This place was a continual complaint-fest when Daboll was OC. I remember specific goofy playcalls that got blasted. 

On 5/19/2023 at 2:23 PM, GETTOTHE50 said:

Please establish plays where Josh is under center and hands off the ball.

 

Im going to lose my mind if I see run calls from the shotgun. 

Runs from the shotgun were one of the things Daboll did all the time. Dorsey doesn't do it any more than Dabes did. 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Dr. K

[PrimeTime101]

10 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

With about 2 minutes left Allen threw a ball in the dirt with a receiver wide open for the go ahead TD. Perfect play design.

 

IIRC, the offense put up over 500 yards in extreme heat and the Bills were greatly undermanned all over the roster. 

i agree with everything you just said... but the redzone offense play call was horrible.. about 500 yards and only 4 scores . that is what i was referring to

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Just now, PrimeTime101 said:

i agree with everything you just said... but the redzone offense play call was horrible.. about 500 yards and only 4 scores . that is what i was referring to

 

i don't recall all the specifics from the game, but again, they should have had another TD with a perfect play call from Dorsey. For the struggles as a whole it was likely due to the Bills offense working hard to move the ball between the 20's that by the time they got into the redzone, in that heat, they had nothing left. 

 

My opinion has been that Dorsey gets too much blame. The players deserve a big share. The Bills saw a dramatic uptick in turnovers this year, especially fumbles, 13 this past year whereas we only had 6 in 2021. Turnovers are on the players, especially fumbles. 

 

The very next week, the Baltimore game was a good example. I think the Bills had three first half turnovers. Baltimore turns two of them into TD's and the Bills are in a 17-0 hole. Second half comes, players stop turning the ball over and the offense all of a sudden looks good. 

 

The Miami playoff game was another good example. The offense was lighting it up. Very easily would have scored over 40 points if it wasn't for the turnovers and Knox drop in the end zone. But the take-a-away from that game is that the Bills offense struggled because they had three turnovers on the day and it was a 3- point margin at the end. But that really doesn't paint an accurate picture of the game that Dorsey called. 

 

 

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

i don't recall all the specifics from the game, but again, they should have had another TD with a perfect play call from Dorsey. For the struggles as a whole it was likely due to the Bills offense working hard to move the ball between the 20's that by the time they got into the redzone, in that heat, they had nothing left. 

 

My opinion has been that Dorsey gets too much blame. The players deserve a big share. The Bills saw a dramatic uptick in turnovers this year, especially fumbles, 13 this past year whereas we only had 6 in 2021. Turnovers are on the players, especially fumbles. 

 

The very next week, the Baltimore game was a good example. I think the Bills had three first half turnovers. Baltimore turns two of them into TD's and the Bills are in a 17-0 hole. Second half comes, players stop turning the ball over and the offense all of a sudden looks good. 

 

The Miami playoff game was another good example. The offense was lighting it up. Very easily would have scored over 40 points if it wasn't for the turnovers and Knox drop in the end zone. But the take-a-away from that game is that the Bills offense struggled because they had three turnovers on the day and it was a 3- point margin at the end. But that really doesn't paint an accurate picture of the game that Dorsey called. 

 

 

I think Dorsey made plenty of mistakes.. but he did not exactly have talent at WR positions or enough of.. and that line was a mess so yea in part i agree. 

 

Look.. When that season ended... many of us(including me) really wanted Dorsey gone. If our New Lineman are as good as advertised and same with Kincaid? I agree with the premise that there should be no excuses for Dorsey this season. I personally had/have very mixed feelings on Dorsey. All we can do is hope.

 

I also hear yards and wins thrown out there a ton, connected to Dorsey... It was not that we were doing it... it was how we were doing it. but Again, I agree with most of what you said  

 

Cheers

[balln]

Florio spot on. 17 pt loss at home in playoffs is an F

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2023/05/21/happy-27th-josh-allen/

[From Roc to Ky bills fan]

On 4/28/2023 at 1:57 PM, Bangarang said:

This reminds me, we need a nickname for Dorsey. 

I think Dorsey's nickname should be, 

Josh Allen can't do it by himself

Or

We need Josh to be healthy for years to come

 

What do you think? 

[Airseven]

On 5/19/2023 at 11:23 AM, GETTOTHE50 said:

Please establish plays where Josh is under center and hands off the ball.

 

Im going to lose my mind if I see run calls from the shotgun. 

In fairness, Allen is probably more comfortable with an extra second while the OL blows up.