Doctor gives reason for Buffalo abandoning the short to intermediate passing game midseason

[transplantbillsfan]

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

Edited February 24, 2023 by transplantbillsfan

[78thealltimegreat]

4 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

Great find. I have to give credit to Josh there a bunch of guys who would have milked this for everything it’s worth in this league.

He never missed a snap, never missed a game, and never used it as an excuse. When it’s clear he very easily could have. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[Big Blitz]

Herbert

Mahomes 

Burrow

Watson 

Tua 

Hurts

 

They’ve all played with the most talented offenses they’ll ever have I can say that with the utmost confidence.  Oline play.  Weapons.   Elite RBs. 
 

 

Allen hasn’t come close to playing with the talent levels those guys have had.  I’m not as down on Dorsey as most.  I’m actually pretty optimistic with him. 
 

The GM responsible for the talent?  Not so much.  

[LABILLBACKER]

9 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

As long as scrub olineman like Quessenberry don't get him hit again. 

[finn]

So is the pain that limited him gone by now? Is the injury healed? I heard he isn't getting surgery, but are we looking at another season with Allen limited to deep throws?

[transplantbillsfan]

10 minutes ago, finn said:

So is the pain that limited him gone by now? Is the injury healed? I heard he isn't getting surgery, but are we looking at another season with Allen limited to deep throws?

 

Ummm... really?

 

If he doesn't need the surgery my guess is that's because it'll heal 100% with rest. If it were still going to limit him, he'd get the surgery.

[Gugny]

54 minutes ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

[gobills404]

11 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Maybe actually listen to the podcast. He takes plenty of shots at Dorsey’s scheme and play calling.

[mead107]

Ban football 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

It makes sense and I actually thought about that. Allen had less discomfort throwing deep.

 

 

56 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

As long as scrub olineman like Quessenberry don't get him hit again. 

Man they did. I swear he got hit the same way 2 more times as the year went on. We’re so lucky Allen didn’t get hurt worse.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Doc]

From the thread title, I thought a doctor was saying all teams should abandon the short and intermediate throws.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

Bottom line the Buffalo Bills offensive line isn’t good enough. It was very obvious during this years Super Bowl no way does our offensive line match up with neither one of those Super Bowl teams Kansas City Chiefs or the Philadelphia Eagles in my opinion.
 

The Buffalo Bills wouldn’t have won the Super Bowl regardless of QB Josh Allen elbow. One superstar player isn’t going to win Buffalo our first undisputed National Championship we have seen this pattern play out of the past 50 plus years of Buffalo sports college and professional. We saw that with the Bonnies Bob Lanier, the Sabres Gilbert Perrault, the Braves Bob McAdoo, the Bills Jim Kelly, the Sabres Dominik Hasek now the Bills Josh Allen. See the theme Buffalo sports teams relying on one superstar player and then if something happens like a injury the Buffalo sports team is done in regards of winning a undisputed National Championship because our Buffalo teams lack depth.
 

We don’t have well round Buffalo sports teams we rely on one superstar than we get let down when something like a injury or one play happens that cost Buffalo a championship. Our Buffalo sports teams are too thin with not enough depth that does Buffalo sports teams in. Not Buffalo sports teams bad luck or the team is curse or Buffalo is curse why we lose. We don’t have the depth on our roster throughout to win a undisputed National Championship in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[The Red King]

I worried about him playing through that injury, and thinking he maybe should have rested several games.  That I'd be happier seeing them go in as a Wild Card with a healthy Allen then I would a top seed with an injured Allen.

[Richard Noggin]

18 minutes ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

 

The Buffalo Bills wouldn’t have won the Super Bowl regardless of QB Josh Allen elbow. One superstar player isn’t going to win Buffalo our first undisputed National Championship we have seen this pattern play out of the past 50 plus years of Buffalo sports college and professional. We saw that with the Bonnies Bob Lanier, the Sabres Gilbert Perrault, the Braves Bob McAdoo, the Bills Jim Kelly, the Sabres Dominik Hasek now the Bills Josh Allen. See the theme Buffalo sports teams relying on one superstar player and then if something happens like a injury the Buffalo sports team is done in regards of winning a undisputed National Championship because our Buffalo teams lack depth.
 

 

Your screen name is Buffalo Super Fan, yet you characterize the 90s Bills as relying solely on their superstar QB?! That's egregiously wrong. That team was absolutely STACKED.

 

For that first SB run, Kelly was throwing to James Lofton and Andre Reed, and handing off (and throwing to) Thurman Thomas. Gold Jackets errwhere. The defense was loaded. There was a contingent of Bills fans back then who argued that Jim Kelly was often, in fact, holding the team back, at times. There were calls for Reich. One could argue that Kelly's ego didn't always call Thurman's number enough...like, say, in their first Super Bowl appearance where Belichick's gameplan relied on Kelly's aggressive tendencies. Even if you ignore Kelly's alleged bullheadedness, the roster was inarguably ELITE. 

 

And wasn't Gilbert Perrault part of an iconic LINE of forwards?! Weren't the THREE of them celebrated in conjunction? 

 

Hasek and Allen seem like fair examples of your take, but some of these others simply don't. 

[transplantbillsfan]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

From the thread title, I thought a doctor was saying all teams should abandon the short and intermediate throws.

 

My bad! Fixed it!

[DrPJax]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

I agree , and in this case the ‘doctor’  is a doctor of physical therapy ( which is the most common path taken by physical therapists now and should not be confused with the same length of education required to obtain either an MD OR DO degree , and those drs go on to residency or subspecialties for several additional years to obtain broad certification and specialty boards.), and he is just explaining a mechanism without ever actually examining or talking to josh. Please,  Don’t get me wrong , i have seen his work on YouTube and he is very knowledgeable about rehab and PT.  He is a great guy and devout BILLS FAN and I enjoy his work on those YouTube shows.  But he has no special insight into things like joshes pain with certain throws, his pain tolerance etc  , and i am sure Dorsey did not offer up  to him that they had to limit their short game offense. It’s a great mechanism explanation, but there is no objective proof that’s what took place. 

 

     Just saying , there is no direct evidence to support this opinion as far as i am aware and it’s nothing more than a theory regarding the bills offense.  Who knows if the strained ucl had any particular effect on josh; he mentioned on brandts program he got prp injected immediately and he made the decision he was able to play that following Saturday

 

. I don’t think they would favor letting him play if they knew they then had to eliminate vital or large  parts of the offense just for him to be on the field.Seems counter to McD’s philosophy. I think in the past they have stated if you are going to be on the field you are expected to be able to perform your job , or why be out there?

   I don’t know, just an opinion , but josh doesn’t seem like he would avoid throws as he has proven to have a high pain threshold ( i think each other afc east team had at least 3 other qbs play at some point last year due to injury , as josh never missed a snap because of injury), so unless the therapist has insider knowledge (which he has stated on YouTube he does not) regarding Josh and the offense , this is just theoretical , and i agree with Gungy, seems more like an excuse rather than reality.

I think that part of the offense that disappeared was more a reflection on Dorsey, teams having film on his offense as the year progressed, and his inexperience as a coordinator, more so than josh being limited by pain. If I hear that from josh’s mouth, that he removed short throws , then i will believe it.   

[John from Riverside]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

I’m sorry I had to laugh at this
 

It seems plausible, though

[ProcessTruster]

6 hours ago, gobills404 said:

Maybe actually listen to the podcast. He takes plenty of shots at Dorsey’s scheme and play calling.

I'm old enough to the remember all the "fire Daboll" posts in 2021 as well.   Rinse and repeat.   

 

Let it go.  Josh will be healthy in 2023 , Dorsey will have learned and off we go.   Trust the Process.  

[JGMcD2]

4 hours ago, DrPJax said:

I agree , and in this case the ‘doctor’  is a doctor of physical therapy ( which is the most common path taken by physical therapists now and should not be confused with the same length of education required to obtain either an MD OR DO degree , and those drs go on to residency or subspecialties for several additional years to obtain broad certification and specialty boards.), and he is just explaining a mechanism without ever actually examining or talking to josh. Please,  Don’t get me wrong , i have seen his work on YouTube and he is very knowledgeable about rehab and PT.  He is a great guy and devout BILLS FAN and I enjoy his work on those YouTube shows.  But he has no special insight into things like joshes pain with certain throws, his pain tolerance etc  , and i am sure Dorsey did not offer up  to him that they had to limit their short game offense. It’s a great mechanism explanation, but there is no objective proof that’s what took place. 

 

     Just saying , there is no direct evidence to support this opinion as far as i am aware and it’s nothing more than a theory regarding the bills offense.  Who knows if the strained ucl had any particular effect on josh; he mentioned on brandts program he got prp injected immediately and he made the decision he was able to play that following Saturday

 

. I don’t think they would favor letting him play if they knew they then had to eliminate vital or large  parts of the offense just for him to be on the field.Seems counter to McD’s philosophy. I think in the past they have stated if you are going to be on the field you are expected to be able to perform your job , or why be out there?

   I don’t know, just an opinion , but josh doesn’t seem like he would avoid throws as he has proven to have a high pain threshold ( i think each other afc east team had at least 3 other qbs play at some point last year due to injury , as josh never missed a snap because of injury), so unless the therapist has insider knowledge (which he has stated on YouTube he does not) regarding Josh and the offense , this is just theoretical , and i agree with Gungy, seems more like an excuse rather than reality.

I think that part of the offense that disappeared was more a reflection on Dorsey, teams having film on his offense as the year progressed, and his inexperience as a coordinator, more so than josh being limited by pain. If I hear that from josh’s mouth, that he removed short throws , then i will believe it.   

Brock Purdy (most recently in NFL) and thousands of MLB pitchers have experienced this injury which has prevented them from being able to throw immediately after. Granted they’re all varying degrees… but you typically get shutdown right after for a few weeks. 
 

Even MLB pitchers who get the PRP injection end up being shut down for an extended period of time despite not receiving surgery. 
 

You’re right, we don’t know specifics and may never. Based on the initial information it was a pretty significant UCL strain… we know that it’s a fact. Just because he was playing doesn’t mean it didn’t hurt and it didn’t impact his ability to make throws. 
 

Josh was out there because 50% Josh is better than 100% Case Keenum. 
 

EDIT:

 

Brasoban made two relief appearances in the Dominican Winter League before being shut down with elbow and forearm issues earlier this month, Padres General Manager A.J. Preller said Wednesday. In hopes of avoiding surgery, he received the elbow injection last week in San Diego. The 22-year-old will be re-evaluated in six to eight weeks.

 

Meanwhile, MLB circulated Ohtani’s medical history. Sources from two of the teams say the report included a notation that Ohtani underwent a platelet-rich plasma injection on his right elbow in October. PRP has become popular as a conservative, nonsurgical treatment to address a wide variety of elbow issues. In some cases, such as with Zack Greinke in 2013 and Chris Sale in ’14, it treats inflammation and irritation. (Both pitchers missed only a few starts.) In other cases, such as strains or tears to the flexor tendon or ulnar collateral ligament, it is used instead of surgery. Yankees starter Masahiro Tanaka, for instance, underwent PRP therapy in 2014 to treat a small UCL tear and has pitched effectively since then. Other pitchers who tried PRP eventually needed Tommy John surgery, including Clay Buchholz and Drew Smyly this year.

 

Tanaka did come back and pitch successfully, but it was 6-weeks from injection before he got back on the mound. 

Ohtani had a 2nd UCL sprain (2nd degree) after he received the PRP injection the winter prior. He received another PRP injection and was down for 11 weeks before throwing in a game again. 
 

Now that Allen is firmly on the road to recovery, a report from NFL insiders Tom Pelissero and Ian Rapoport has indicated that the injury was “worse” than initially reported. The QB suffered the injury all the way back in Week 14 but wasn’t forced to miss any time.

“The extent of the injury, originally reported as a UCL sprain, was worse than most knew. But as long as Allen avoided reinjury, which he has to this point, doctors always believed he could avoid surgery and heal up during the offseason.”

 

Anyone that I’ve ever come in contact with after receiving a PRP injection on a UCL injury has been shut down for at least 6 weeks before reevaluating them. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by JGMcD2

[Mr. WEO]

His intermediate game seems to have miraculously improved after the Bengals game:

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

6 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

 

Your screen name is Buffalo Super Fan, yet you characterize the 90s Bills as relying solely on their superstar QB?! That's egregiously wrong. That team was absolutely STACKED.

 

For that first SB run, Kelly was throwing to James Lofton and Andre Reed, and handing off (and throwing to) Thurman Thomas. Gold Jackets errwhere. The defense was loaded. There was a contingent of Bills fans back then who argued that Jim Kelly was often, in fact, holding the team back, at times. There were calls for Reich. One could argue that Kelly's ego didn't always call Thurman's number enough...like, say, in their first Super Bowl appearance where Belichick's gameplan relied on Kelly's aggressive tendencies. Even if you ignore Kelly's alleged bullheadedness, the roster was inarguably ELITE. 

 

And wasn't Gilbert Perrault part of an iconic LINE of forwards?! Weren't the THREE of them celebrated in conjunction? 

 

Hasek and Allen seem like fair examples of your take, but some of these others simply don't. 

Yep- stacked is right. They’d send 5-8 players to the bro bowl (when it was meaningful) regularly including o linemen.
 

Nose tackle cb2 and FS maybe one of the guards were the only places they didn’t have top tier talent. 

[BillsFan2313]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

His intermediate game seems to have miraculously improved after the Bengals game:

 

 

If it was serious, he wouldn't be golfing you would think. 

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Herbert

Mahomes 

Burrow

Watson 

Tua 

Hurts

 

They’ve all played with the most talented offenses they’ll ever have I can say that with the utmost confidence.  Oline play.  Weapons.   Elite RBs. 
 

 

Allen hasn’t come close to playing with the talent levels those guys have had.  I’m not as down on Dorsey as most.  I’m actually pretty optimistic with him. 
 

The GM responsible for the talent?  Not so much.  

 

 

KC won just won the SB with the "most talented Offense they will ever have"?  After Kelce, list all of their "elite weapons"...

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

KC won just won the SB with the "most talented Offense they will ever have"?  After Kelce, list all of their "elite weapons"...

Juju is an elite TikToker.

 

Kadarius Toney has elite quads without elite hamstrings.

Clyde Edwards Helaire is an elite cheerleader.

[RunTheBall]

Trimball was wrong more often than he was right with player injuries this season. He’s not a medical doctor he’s a doctor of physical therapy. Anyway, he’s correct about the elbow influencing short throws but those are more the screens, bubble screens and wheel routes where he’s throwing at or behind the line of scrimmage.

 

The intermediate game didn’t suffer because of Josh’s elbow, it suffered because Dorsey sucked at making adjustments to what defenses did to take away his bread and butter concepts. 

 

Teams schemed to take away the first couple of reads on the high/low concept and crossers. Because our O-line sucked, Josh had no time to get further in his progression and turned into “Make a play Josh”. The offense had good stats because Josh is an alien, not because Dorsey schemed up easy open throws.

 

That’s going to be the biggest question mark going forward with Dorsey. I fully expect the offense to come out guns blazing. Once teams get some tape, they will scheme to slow it down. Can Dorsey then adjust to those adjustments? We will find out. If he doesn’t, the team will make another early exit.

 

[Big Blitz]

16 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

KC won just won the SB with the "most talented Offense they will ever have"?  After Kelce, list all of their "elite weapons"...

 

Not this season - Hill, Kelce, his 2022 roster.

 

My point was those teams had offenses with elite talent at some point with those QBs.  It wasn’t to say we can’t win with our talent - I’m pointing out those teams have done a better job amassing it on offense and while we’ve had good talent on Offense, Allen has had nothing close to what those QBs have had.  
 

Mahomes offense this year was bolstered by a superior oline - maybe the best he’s had there.   

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

You do realize this thread title will give rise to any of a number of professions offering explanations...🤔

*
'Lawyers cite excess on field litigation from short passes as the reason for going long'.

*
'Chiropodists say fancy footwork too often causes receiver foot distress.  Send those boys long!'

*
'Golden Corral Buffet managers like hungry clients!  Make sure your OC dials up 'the bomb' early and often, and we'll cater to your hungry players post game!'

[Don Otreply]

I heard/read about throwing angles and Joshes elbow a while back, it certainly can have an effect, but I am also certain that throw angles can be modified for short throws to make the throws regularly doable, it’s a matter of “proper play designs” that allow for “adjustments” to be successful…, 

 

Go Bills!!!

[Mr. WEO]

5 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Not this season - Hill, Kelce, his 2022 roster.

 

My point was those teams had offenses with elite talent at some point with those QBs.  It wasn’t to say we can’t win with our talent - I’m pointing out those teams have done a better job amassing it on offense and while we’ve had good talent on Offense, Allen has had nothing close to what those QBs have had.  
 

Mahomes offense this year was bolstered by a superior oline - maybe the best he’s had there.   

 

Hill was on Miami's roster in 2022.

 

Other than the O-line, KC had one receiver with over 80 catches (Kelce).  M V-S and Juju were other team's throwaways who combined for 5 TDs. 

 

The talent divide wasn't as wide as your are exaggerating...so, it can be done "at some point" without all elite talent.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Locked On Bills is an amazing podcast with amazing insight. The elbow injury and arm angle is definitely plausible to being a part of why things got weird the last 9 weeks. 

 

John Fina hit the nail on the head yesterday as well. 

11 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

I heard/read about throwing angles and Joshes elbow a while back, it certainly can have an effect, but I am also certain that throw angles can be modified for short throws to make the throws regularly doable, it’s a matter of “proper play designs” that allow for “adjustments” to be successful…, 

 

Go Bills!!!

I’m sure it can and I’m sure it was, BUT these mechanic changes will affect his accuracy, which we saw. 
 

It’s made very clear in the podcast and the next episode, Bills didn’t lose because Allen’s injury or because “they ran out of gas.” They lost because of poor blocking schemes and a poor overall offensive game plan. Injuries, also, became a huge issue in the end.

[BillsFan130]

10 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Locked On Bills is an amazing podcast with amazing insight. The elbow injury and arm angle is definitely plausible to being a part of why things got weird the last 9 weeks. 

 

John Fina hit the nail on the head yesterday as well. 

I’m sure it can and I’m sure it was, BUT these mechanic changes will affect his accuracy, which we saw. 
 

It’s made very clear in the podcast and the next episode, Bills didn’t lose because Allen’s injury or because “they ran out of gas.” They lost because of poor blocking schemes and a poor overall offensive game plan. Injuries, also, became a huge issue in the end.

Joe Marino is great.

 

He is turning into a bit of a homer which I’m not a fan of lol, but he provides great insights and is very knowledgeable 

[Don Otreply]

9 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Locked On Bills is an amazing podcast with amazing insight. The elbow injury and arm angle is definitely plausible to being a part of why things got weird the last 9 weeks. 

 

John Fina hit the nail on the head yesterday as well. 

I’m sure it can and I’m sure it was, BUT these mechanic changes will affect his accuracy, which we saw. 
 

It’s made very clear in the podcast and the next episode, Bills didn’t lose because Allen’s injury or because “they ran out of gas.” They lost because of poor blocking schemes and a poor overall offensive game plan. Injuries, also, became a huge issue in the end.

I agree that the biggest issues were & are play design and scheming, on both Defense and Offense, injuries never help, but that’s why play design & scheming is so important, adjustments need to be effective and happen in a timely fashion, both of which need to be attended to in a useful way by our HC & coordinators. 
 

GO BILLS!!!

[Mark80]

Yep, accuracy in the short/medium game after the injury was alarmingly off.  Everyone misses some throws, but it was clear to me that this was more than the normal  amount after that injury.  Here's to a full off-season recovery and sneaking up on a lot of folks next season who have written us off as second tier to KC and Cin.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

John Fina also called out 2 guys I’ve defended: Groot and AJE. He said next man up doesn’t mean you become Von, but it does mean you show flashes and produce. He was unhappy with the performance of both.

[uticaclub]

15 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

John Fina also called out 2 guys I’ve defended: Groot and AJE. He said next man up doesn’t mean you become Von, but it does mean you show flashes and produce. He was unhappy with the performance of both.

If anyone was happy with their performance they need to step up their game or stick to watching Pop Warner

[Beck Water]

16 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

 

12 hours ago, DrPJax said:

I agree , and in this case the ‘doctor’  is a doctor of physical therapy ( which is the most common path taken by physical therapists now and should not be confused with the same length of education required to obtain either an MD OR DO degree , and those drs go on to residency or subspecialties for several additional years to obtain broad certification and specialty boards.), and he is just explaining a mechanism without ever actually examining or talking to josh. Please,  Don’t get me wrong , i have seen his work on YouTube and he is very knowledgeable about rehab and PT.  He is a great guy and devout BILLS FAN and I enjoy his work on those YouTube shows.  But he has no special insight into things like joshes pain with certain throws, his pain tolerance etc  , and i am sure Dorsey did not offer up  to him that they had to limit their short game offense. It’s a great mechanism explanation, but there is no objective proof that’s what took place. 

 

Just saying , there is no direct evidence to support this opinion as far as i am aware and it’s nothing more than a theory regarding the bills offense.  Who knows if the strained ucl had any particular effect on josh; he mentioned on brandts program he got prp injected immediately and he made the decision he was able to play that following Saturday

 

I'll take this on.  I'm trying to remember what show it was on - but basically the direct evidence we have to support this opinion comes from Josh himself.

 

In an interview (I will keep letting it float through my mind, it MIGHT have been the Kyle Brandt's Basement show prior to the Bengals game?) Josh stated that after the injury, he had to return to a more lateral throwing motion because rotational throwing motion placed too much strain on his elbow and that it was only in the last "couple of weeks" that he'd been able to return to the mechanics he preferred.

 

Now that might not mean very much, except in the context of interviews with Josh and others about the change in Josh's completion % between 2019 and 2020.  Basically, part of the change was proper sequencing of his upper and lower body (hips firing first).  Another part of it was becoming a rotational rather than a lateral or overhand thrower.  There are multiple interviews where Josh has talked about this - a couple with Chris Simms, I think there's one with Fitz, some people who assess throwing motion say he changed.

 

So basically, what Josh is saying is that mid-season, he had to return towards the mechanics of 2019 Josh, then at the end of the season try to work back to 2020.

There's a second line of direct evidence supporting this, if you look up NexGen Stats charts.   Unfortunately at this point they only have back as far as Week 6 and they don't have every week, but if you look at the overall completion percentage charts, there's a green area in the middle of the field between 10 and 20 yds in 2021 that's missing in 2022.  It was also notable that Josh was off- target with some of his short "bunny" throws late this season.  It was notable that this was a problem area for Josh in 2018 and 2019 which he improved in 2020.

 

I don't think the Bills took out the "short game offense", but I do think it was limited after Josh's injury.  As to what Dorsey did, can't tell you; my guess is that initially, Josh wasn't that clear on what impact it would have on him and played as though there was no impact, then as a couple of games went on, he and Dorsey probably had a "come to Jesus" meeting where they discussed detailed data on Josh's completion % to different areas on different plays and Dorsey may have tweeked the offense.

 

Others may disagree, that's fine, but IME good PTs typically are able to pinpoint exactly what motions will hurt or exacerbate different injuries, much more so than MDs.  That's a generalization, and based on my personal experience and that of my friends, I feel certain there are MDs who are better and PTs who are worse.  He would not have insight into Josh's pain tolerance, that's true.

 

Last, but not least, I believe there is far more to it than just Josh's elbow.  There are impacts of the way Josh was reading and processing what he sees in Dorsey's offense that have nothing to do with his UCL.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Beck Water

[TheyCallMeAndy]

39 minutes ago, uticaclub said:

If anyone was happy with their performance they need to step up their game or stick to watching Pop Warner

I felt while they could definitely improve (and clearly are), but I didn’t consider either to be ‘bad.’ Neither did Finna, he just wanted more from those two. 
 

IMO both made strides in 2022

 

*Edit*
 

After looking at their splits, Epenesa actually played better after Von went down. 
 

Groots production significantly dipped after the ankle injury. 

Edited February 24, 2023 by TheyCallMeAndy

[Logic]

12 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

Allen hasn’t come close to playing with the talent levels those guys have had.  I’m not as down on Dorsey as most.  I’m actually pretty optimistic with him. 
 

The GM responsible for the talent?  Not so much.  

Funnily enough, I feel the exact opposite.

Diggs
Knox
Davis
McKenzie
Cook
Hines
Shakir

That should be enough weaponry to produce. 

Who did Mahomes and his league leading offense have this year? Travis Kelce and a bunch of guys. You're telling me that Juju/MVS/Watson/Moore/Hardman is greatly superior to what the Bills have at WR? That McKinnon and Pacheco are greatly superior to Cook and Hines?

I'll give you the offensive line. That I agree with. Mahomes has an elite line, Allen does not. But weaponry? I just don't agree that the Bills didn't have enough of it this year. 

Instead, I believe that Dorsey did not utilize the personnel he DID have effectively enough. Cook and Hines should both have been used heavily in the passing game. They're both mismatches against linebackers. Cook, Hines, and McKenzie should all have had their speed and quickness used to stretch the defense horizontally, even if only as pre-snap eye candy to give defenders a moment of pause. Knox is an athletic freak and should have been featured much more in the passing game. Davis should have been used in the slot more frequently, as he was the past two years, since he's proven more consistently that he can beat safeties and undersized slot guys than outside corners.

In short, while the Bills' weaponry can definitely stand to improve (as can the protection), I believe that Dorsey's lack of creativity is what held the Bills offense back at times in 2022. He needs to get better moving forward. I believe he can, and I hope he will.

Edited February 24, 2023 by Logic

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Hill was on Miami's roster in 2022.

 

Other than the O-line, KC had one receiver with over 80 catches (Kelce).  M V-S and Juju were other team's throwaways who combined for 5 TDs. 

 

The talent divide wasn't as wide as your are exaggerating...so, it can be done "at some point" without all elite talent.

Did you watch the KC OLine play against the Philly D that had 70 sacks this year?  LT, LG, C and RG are all better than every player not named Diggs.  We have one of the worst OLs in the league they have one of the best.  Then add Kelce -  then add Andy Reid.  Mahomes was working with a LOT more than allen.  That is a fact.  
 

“Elite playmakers”? Not so much.  “Elite supporting cast”? absofrickinlutely.  There’s a wide talent divide when you take away- von, Hyde, daquan Jones, Hamlin, crowder and a close to useless Poyer.  Injuries are part of the game, but some teams can’t overcome them.  How many all pros were the chiefs missing?  
 

McD- Dorsey- Frazier Vs Reid- Bienemy- Spags?  Our coaches were totally outclassed by Taylor and Anarumo

[Nextmanup]

This may have been an issue for a week or 2, but I refuse to believe it was some sort of big problem for half the damned season.  Not with Josh running off to play in a golf tournament right after the season ended.

 

If his injury had been serious, he would have had surgery and been out long term.

 

He didn't and wasn't, so I am reluctant to use his elbow as an excuse.

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Nextmanup