Doctor gives reason for Buffalo abandoning the short to intermediate passing game midseason

[NewEra]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

Funnily enough, I feel the exact opposite.

Diggs
Knox
Davis
McKenzie
Cook
Hines
Shakir

That should be enough weaponry to produce. 

Who did Mahomes and his league leading offense have this year? Travis Kelce and a bunch of guys. You're telling me that Juju/MVS/Watson/Moore/Hardman is greatly superior to what the Bills have at WR? That McKinnon and Pacheco are greatly superior to Cook and Hines?

I'll give you the offensive line. That I agree with. Mahomes has an elite line, Allen does not. But weaponry? I just don't agree that the Bills didn't have enough of it this year. 

Instead, I believe that Dorsey did not utilize the personnel he DID have effectively enough. Cook and Hines should both have been used heavily in the passing game. They're both mismatches against linebackers. Cook, Hines, and McKenzie should all have had their speed and quickness used to stretch the defense horizontally, even if only as pre-snap eye candy to give defenders a moment of pause. Knox is an athletic freak and should have been featured much more in the passing game. Davis should have been used in the slot more frequently, as he was the past two years, since he's proven more consistently that he can beat safeties and undersized slot guys than outside corners.

In short, while the Bills' weaponry can definitely stand to improve (as can the protection), but I believe that Dorsey's lack of creativity is what held the Bills offense back at times in 2022. He needs to get better moving forward. I believe he can, and I hope he will.

He didn’t mention weaponry in the post you quoted.  Maybe he did elsewhere and if so, apologies.  He said talent level.  
 

i agree that Dorsey (and Allen’s injury) contributed to the offensive decline in the 2nd half of the season……but I think that we would’ve steamrolled some teams if we had KCs OL.  The talent differential along the OL was massive.  KC and Philly had 2 of the 3 best OLs in the league (Detroit being the other in the mix) if not the top 2.  

[Mr. WEO]

27 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Did you watch the KC OLine play against the Philly D that had 70 sacks this year?  LT, LG, C and RG are all better than every player not named Diggs.  We have one of the worst OLs in the league they have one of the best.  Then add Kelce -  then add Andy Reid.  Mahomes was working with a LOT more than allen.  That is a fact.  
 

“Elite playmakers”? Not so much.  “Elite supporting cast”? absofrickinlutely.  There’s a wide talent divide when you take away- von, Hyde, daquan Jones, Hamlin, crowder and a close to useless Poyer.  Injuries are part of the game, but some teams can’t overcome them.  How many all pros were the chiefs missing?  
 

McD- Dorsey- Frazier Vs Reid- Bienemy- Spags?  Our coaches were totally outclassed by Taylor and Anarumo

 

 

The guy said "elite talent".  I responded.

 

Worst O-line in league history?  come on....what am I supposed to say to that?   

 

Anyway, I posted elsewhere that Mahomes took more of a beating behind his line than did Allen.  They (Chiefs)were definitely better blocking for  the run though.  Eagles D-line was totally exposed in that SB---zero sacks against crippled Mahomes.  Paper tigers---all those sacks yet only #9 against the pass and #8 in points given up. Big deal.  The Bills D--even with all the injuries, was better at both.

 

Von and Hyde were definitely missed.  Hamlin is a backup.  Poyer was indeed useless, but not because he was injured--he was burnt left and right in that Bengals game.  A liability---and an All Pro!

 

But you are definitely correct re: coaching.  The Bills staff totally outclassed (again). 

[2003Contenders]

Yes. Tony Romo, who did Bills games multiple times during Josh's elbow injury pretty much stated this repeatedly: it may seem counterintuitive but the short "touch" passes place much more stress on the elbow than the downfield passes.

[Logic]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

He didn’t mention weaponry in the post you quoted.  Maybe he did elsewhere and if so, apologies.  He said talent level.  
 

i agree that Dorsey (and Allen’s injury) contributed to the offensive decline in the 2nd half of the season……but I think that we would’ve steamrolled some teams if we had KCs OL.  The talent differential along the OL was massive.  KC and Philly had 2 of the 3 best OLs in the league (Detroit being the other in the mix) if not the top 2.  

You're correct that he said "talent level" and not "weaponry". But in my mind, saying Allen didn't have a high enough talent level around him is the same as saying he didn't have enough weaponry. If the poster was not referring to the level of talent surrounding Allen, or meant something other than "he needs a better supporting cast", then I misunderstood him.

I agreed in my post -- and agree with you -- that the talent level at OL for the Bills is nowhere close to KC's. But the talent level of the skill players around Allen is comparable to the talent around Mahomes (and some of the others listed), IMO. I also don't think the OL is catastrophic. It's average to below average, and nowhere near the level of KC's, but it's not "league worst" or bottom barrel, in my opinion. 

I maintain that the Bills had enough horses on offense to be better than they were the second half of the season, even with Allen's injuries. I also admit I could be dead wrong.

[US Egg]

13 hours ago, Gugny said:

I’d like a 2nd opinion before jumping to conclusions.

 

[BuffaninSarasota]

5 hours ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

If it was serious, he wouldn't be golfing you would think. 

 

that's funny - unintentionally it would appear

[Punching Bag]

14 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

@Gugny is reusing image.  It is one sent to him by his wife on his performance.

[Beck Water]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

His intermediate game seems to have miraculously improved after the Bengals game:

 

 

This is going to be one of those "believe it or don't" things.   I reached out to Kyle Trimble on Facebook when the news came out that Josh was playing in the Pebble Beach Pro-Am, sharing the concerns that were expressed on this site at the time about the effect of golfing on the UCL injury.   He said he didn't think it was an issue but would delve into it and possibly write about it.

 

After delving, he was nice enough to get back to me and said, fundamentally, nothing to write about because it's a non-issue.  Said Josh can play all the golf he wants because the principal stress from golfing is on the opposite side of the elbow and the forces are much lower with a golf swing than throwing a football at NFL velocities.

 

Again, don't have anything written publicly or tweeted, so "believe it or don't", and since he's a PT, believe he knows what he's talking about or don't.

 

4 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

This may have been an issue for a week or 2, but I refuse to believe it was some sort of big problem for half the damned season.  Not with Josh running off to play in a golf tournament right after the season ended.

 

If his injury had been serious, he would have had surgery and been out long term.

 

He didn't and wasn't, so I am reluctant to use his elbow as an excuse.

 

"I refuse to believe" - in the words of Josh Allen "Okay" 

 

You and Josh are aligned since he hasn't used his elbow as an excuse either.

 

There's a lot of wiggle room in "serious".  No one is going to do surgery on a partially torn UCL that can heal on its own so if you define "serious" as "needing immediate surgery", it's not serious.   But there's a lot of room between "needs immediate surgery" and "can be played through, but affects the player".  Not needing surgery doesn't mean it isn't "serious" in the sense of impacting the player.

 

I'd pay attention to what @JGMcD2 had to say about UCL injuries and PRP injections in the context of baseball, since that is "his lane".

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Beck Water

[NewEra]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

The guy said "elite talent".  I responded.

 

Worst O-line in league history?  come on....what am I supposed to say to that?   

 

Anyway, I posted elsewhere that Mahomes took more of a beating behind his line than did Allen.  They (Chiefs)were definitely better blocking for  the run though.  Eagles D-line was totally exposed in that SB---zero sacks against crippled Mahomes.  Paper tigers---all those sacks yet only #9 against the pass and #8 in points given up. Big deal.  The Bills D--even with all the injuries, was better at both.

 

Von and Hyde were definitely missed.  Hamlin is a backup.  Poyer was indeed useless, but not because he was injured--he was burnt left and right in that Bengals game.  A liability---and an All Pro!

 

But you are definitely correct re: coaching.  The Bills staff totally outclassed (again). 

Right. Elite talen— we have Diggs.  That’s all.

 

the entire KC OL minus their RT is going to or already is getting paid mega millions.  They have some elite talent on offense line ….because they paid for it (thuney + Orlando) and drafted it (creed).  Smith is very good (but not elite atm, but he’ll get paid like it).  We have 1 WR.  That’s it.  Kelce and Diggs are a wash-  juju+ MVS + toney >> Knox, Davis and anyone else we found on the street.  They have better weapons- they have a MUCH better OL regardless of any stats you want to find
 

Put their OL in front of Josh, with KC weapons and Andy Reid calling plays— instead of a rookie play caller.  Spags instead of one of the most passive DCs I can remember….. You likely win super bowls.  
 

where did I say our OL is the worst in league history? You’re not supposed to say anything to that….:because I didn’t say that.   Maybe this is one of the problems with your posts and why I had you on ignore most of the season.  

3 hours ago, Logic said:

You're correct that he said "talent level" and not "weaponry". But in my mind, saying Allen didn't have a high enough talent level around him is the same as saying he didn't have enough weaponry. If the poster was not referring to the level of talent surrounding Allen, or meant something other than "he needs a better supporting cast", then I misunderstood him.

I agreed in my post -- and agree with you -- that the talent level at OL for the Bills is nowhere close to KC's. But the talent level of the skill players around Allen is comparable to the talent around Mahomes (and some of the others listed), IMO. I also don't think the OL is catastrophic. It's average to below average, and nowhere near the level of KC's, but it's not "league worst" or bottom barrel, in my opinion. 

I maintain that the Bills had enough horses on offense to be better than they were the second half of the season, even with Allen's injuries. I also admit I could be dead wrong.

Idk….talent around him = supporting cast imo.  
 

No big deal, I hear ya 

[Jrb1979]

18 hours ago, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

I would agree with that "assessment" if that happened after Allen got hurt. They dropped the short passing game well before that. 

[Mango]

If Allen was taking shots deep so he didn’t feel pain. Ok I can accept that. But based on Allen’s playing style I don’t fully buy into it because he plays this way a lot. 

 

But if this is a continuation of the “he was less accurate because of his arm” conversation this is pointless. Sure we’d like him to go back to being a 70% (‘20) passer instead of 63.3% (‘21 and ‘22). But the gripe with Allen this season (for me) hasn’t really been tossing around uncatchable balls or completion percentage. It’s been decision making. 

 

I will post it for the 100th time. I run through the all-22 after every game. There are guys underneath. There are open receivers. The very best example is the link below.
 

Tough throw and tough catch to Davis in the end zone. But Allen doesn’t even bother to look to an embarrassingly wide open Shakir to his right. None of that has to do with Allen’s elbow. And plays like this happen every single week over and over again. Allen bid a freak, but he needs to learn to play the game like he has less arm talent.  
 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Beck Water said:

 

This is going to be one of those "believe it or don't" things.   I reached out to Kyle Trimble on Facebook when the news came out that Josh was playing in the Pebble Beach Pro-Am, sharing the concerns that were expressed on this site at the time about the effect of golfing on the UCL injury.   He said he didn't think it was an issue but would delve into it and possibly write about it.

 

After delving, he was nice enough to get back to me and said, fundamentally, nothing to write about because it's a non-issue.  Said Josh can play all the golf he wants because the principal stress from golfing is on the opposite side of the elbow and the forces are much lower with a golf swing than throwing a football at NFL velocities.

 

Again, don't have anything written publicly or tweeted, so "believe it or don't", and since he's a PT, believe he knows what he's talking about or don't.

 

 

"I refuse to believe" - in the words of Josh Allen "Okay" 

 

You and Josh are aligned since he hasn't used his elbow as an excuse either.

 

There's a lot of wiggle room in "serious".  No one is going to do surgery on a partially torn UCL that can heal on its own so if you define "serious" as "needing immediate surgery", it's not serious.   But there's a lot of room between "needs immediate surgery" and "can be played through, but affects the player".  Not needing surgery doesn't mean it isn't "serious" in the sense of impacting the player.

 

I'd pay attention to what @JGMcD2 had to say about UCL injuries and PRP injections in the context of baseball, since that is "his lane".

 

 

 

Seems odd he would have to look into it...and then simply conclude; "yeah he can play all the golf he wants".

[BillsFan2313]

3 hours ago, BuffaninSarasota said:

 

that's funny - unintentionally it would appear

 

The part of the elbow a golf swing uses is right above the UCL, so I would assume the team and doctors would advise him not to play. But I am guessing you are one of those folks, who is embarrasingly bad at golf, so you don't consider it a sport or a risk. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

Right. Elite talen— we have Diggs.  That’s all.

 

the entire KC OL minus their RT is going to or already is getting paid mega millions.  They have some elite talent on offense line ….because they paid for it (thuney + Orlando) and drafted it (creed).  Smith is very good (but not elite atm, but he’ll get paid like it).  We have 1 WR.  That’s it.  Kelce and Diggs are a wash-  juju+ MVS + toney >> Knox, Davis and anyone else we found on the street.  They have better weapons- they have a MUCH better OL regardless of any stats you want to find
 

Put their OL in front of Josh, with KC weapons and Andy Reid calling plays— instead of a rookie play caller.  Spags instead of one of the most passive DCs I can remember….. You likely win super bowls.  
 

where did I say our OL is the worst in league history? You’re not supposed to say anything to that….:because I didn’t say that.   Maybe this is one of the problems with your posts and why I had you on ignore most of the season.  

Idk….talent around him = supporting cast imo.  
 

No big deal, I hear ya 

 

 

I misread your overwrought  hyperbole regarding the O-line.   It's still BS though ("regardless of any stats you want to find", lol wtf?), demonstrably so, too.  Talking about O-lines...Bengals got to the AFCC game with a bad one.  

 

Anyway, so M V-S was part of the "Aaron Rodgers has no weapons crew", but now he's "elite talent" isn KC.  Got it. 

 

Again if you  are changing the argument to coaching as well--it's obvious that, by far, this is the biggest talent gap between the 2 teams.  No argument there.  Swap coaching staffs only and the Bills win a SB in 2022.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 24, 2023 by Mr. WEO

[HappyDays]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

Anyway, so M V-S was part of the "Aaron Rodgers has no weapons crew", but now he's "elite talent" isn KC.

 

This is a poor representation of that argument and I think you know this. Chiefs have multiple 1st/2nd tier at their position players - Brown, Thuney, Humphrey, and Kelce for sure. The Bills have one - Diggs. They also have better depth at the skill positions than we do and their 7th round RB was making plays I've never seen Singletary make. When you factor in the coaching how is there even a debate?

[LABILLBACKER]

13 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

The part of the elbow a golf swing uses is right above the UCL, so I would assume the team and doctors would advise him not to play. But I am guessing you are one of those folks, who is embarrasingly bad at golf, so you don't consider it a sport or a risk. 

For a right handed golfer the majority of stress from the swing and impact is absorbed by the left arm/ elbow.  Now the right shoulder drives through the swing. The right elbow is hardly affected.

[Mr. WEO]

8 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

This is a poor representation of that argument and I think you know this. Chiefs have multiple 1st/2nd tier at their position players - Brown, Thuney, Humphrey, and Kelce for sure. The Bills have one - Diggs. They also have better depth at the skill positions than we do and their 7th round RB was making plays I've never seen Singletary make. When you factor in the coaching how is there even a debate?

 

We've covered the O-line several times now.  

 

Ditto the coaching.  

 

 

 

GO back and read the post I originally was responding to.  Guy was referring to "elite" talent.  Now you want to add Pacheco to that descriptor?  We aren't even talking about the same thing any more. 

[starrymessenger]

27 minutes ago, Mango said:

If Allen was taking shots deep so he didn’t feel pain. Ok I can accept that. But based on Allen’s playing style I don’t fully buy into it because he plays this way a lot. 

 

But if this is a continuation of the “he was less accurate because of his arm” conversation this is pointless. Sure we’d like him to go back to being a 70% (‘20) passer instead of 63.3% (‘21 and ‘22). But the gripe with Allen this season (for me) hasn’t really been tossing around uncatchable balls or completion percentage. It’s been decision making. 

 

I will post it for the 100th time. I run through the all-22 after every game. There are guys underneath. There are open receivers. The very best example is the link below.
 

Tough throw and tough catch to Davis in the end zone. But Allen doesn’t even bother to look to an embarrassingly wide open Shakir to his right. None of that has to do with Allen’s elbow. And plays like this happen every single week over and over again. Allen bid a freak, but he needs to learn to play the game like he has less arm talent.  
 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

I honestly thought Daboll did a good job of reigning Josh in, given Josh's inclinations. This has got to be on Dorsey's to do list.

[PrimeTime101]

18 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

Herbert

Mahomes 

Burrow

Watson 

Tua 

Hurts

 

They’ve all played with the most talented offenses they’ll ever have I can say that with the utmost confidence.  Oline play.  Weapons.   Elite RBs. 
 

 

Allen hasn’t come close to playing with the talent levels those guys have had.  I’m not as down on Dorsey as most.  I’m actually pretty optimistic with him. 
 

The GM responsible for the talent?  Not so much.  

I think its funny that this gets brought up over and over again this offseason when early season last year I argued that this team is not the most talented complete team in football and i got dumped on.

[BuffaninSarasota]

23 minutes ago, BillsFan2313 said:

 

The part of the elbow a golf swing uses is right above the UCL, so I would assume the team and doctors would advise him not to play. But I am guessing you are one of those folks, who is embarrasingly bad at golf, so you don't consider it a sport or a risk. 

So you're assuming the team & doctors would advise him not to play golf if it was potentially dangerous to the original UCL injury, correct?

 

Then why is he playing golf? I'd speculate (...not assume) the team & doctors deemed an occasional round of golf as not dangerous or risky

 

And your guess is incorrect - I'm a 9 handicap and very much view golf as a sport.

[BillsFan2313]

10 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

For a right handed golfer the majority of stress from the swing and impact is absorbed by the left arm/ elbow.  Now the right shoulder drives through the swing. The right elbow is hardly affected.

 

"Golfer's elbow usually affects your dominant arm. For example, right-handed people develop golfer's elbow in their right arm. Symptoms usually start as a tender spot on your inner elbow. Golfer's elbow pain can also radiate up and down your arm."

 

[Billy Claude]

Wouldn't Diggs have said something in one of his interviews if If Allen's elbow was seriously affecting the game plan for the entire 2nd half of the season?  Or even if Diggs didn't say anything specific, he might have hinted there was a reason for the problems the offense faced the second half of the season.  Instead he just expressed frustration.

[newcam2012]

19 hours ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

Bottom line the Buffalo Bills offensive line isn’t good enough. It was very obvious during this years Super Bowl no way does our offensive line match up with neither one of those Super Bowl teams Kansas City Chiefs or the Philadelphia Eagles in my opinion.
 

The Buffalo Bills wouldn’t have won the Super Bowl regardless of QB Josh Allen elbow. One superstar player isn’t going to win Buffalo our first undisputed National Championship we have seen this pattern play out of the past 50 plus years of Buffalo sports college and professional. We saw that with the Bonnies Bob Lanier, the Sabres Gilbert Perrault, the Braves Bob McAdoo, the Bills Jim Kelly, the Sabres Dominik Hasek now the Bills Josh Allen. See the theme Buffalo sports teams relying on one superstar player and then if something happens like a injury the Buffalo sports team is done in regards of winning a undisputed National Championship because our Buffalo teams lack depth.
 

We don’t have well round Buffalo sports teams we rely on one superstar than we get let down when something like a injury or one play happens that cost Buffalo a championship. Our Buffalo sports teams are too thin with not enough depth that does Buffalo sports teams in. Not Buffalo sports teams bad luck or the team is curse or Buffalo is curse why we lose. We don’t have the depth on our roster throughout to win a undisputed National Championship in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

Can't argue with your logic. Not a popular view but very hard to dispute.

 

More specifically, Allen doesn't have adequate oline support or weapons to take full advantage of his skills. Thus, the term Super Man is often used when describing him. This issue isn't a new one. For years pundits, fans, and the media have chimed in about how reliant the Bills are in Allen. To a fault. It rears its head especially on the playoffs.

 

It's utter failure on Beane and company to get a good supporting cast for Allen. I'm not optimistic they can after basically 6 years of trying failures. 

[transplantbillsfan]

17 hours ago, DrPJax said:

I agree , and in this case the ‘doctor’  is a doctor of physical therapy ( which is the most common path taken by physical therapists now and should not be confused with the same length of education required to obtain either an MD OR DO degree , and those drs go on to residency or subspecialties for several additional years to obtain broad certification and specialty boards.), and he is just explaining a mechanism without ever actually examining or talking to josh. Please,  Don’t get me wrong , i have seen his work on YouTube and he is very knowledgeable about rehab and PT.  He is a great guy and devout BILLS FAN and I enjoy his work on those YouTube shows.  But he has no special insight into things like joshes pain with certain throws, his pain tolerance etc  , and i am sure Dorsey did not offer up  to him that they had to limit their short game offense. It’s a great mechanism explanation, but there is no objective proof that’s what took place. 

 

     Just saying , there is no direct evidence to support this opinion as far as i am aware and it’s nothing more than a theory regarding the bills offense.  Who knows if the strained ucl had any particular effect on josh; he mentioned on brandts program he got prp injected immediately and he made the decision he was able to play that following Saturday

 

. I don’t think they would favor letting him play if they knew they then had to eliminate vital or large  parts of the offense just for him to be on the field.Seems counter to McD’s philosophy. I think in the past they have stated if you are going to be on the field you are expected to be able to perform your job , or why be out there?

   I don’t know, just an opinion , but josh doesn’t seem like he would avoid throws as he has proven to have a high pain threshold ( i think each other afc east team had at least 3 other qbs play at some point last year due to injury , as josh never missed a snap because of injury), so unless the therapist has insider knowledge (which he has stated on YouTube he does not) regarding Josh and the offense , this is just theoretical , and i agree with Gungy, seems more like an excuse rather than reality.

I think that part of the offense that disappeared was more a reflection on Dorsey, teams having film on his offense as the year progressed, and his inexperience as a coordinator, more so than josh being limited by pain. If I hear that from josh’s mouth, that he removed short throws , then i will believe it.   

 

You spend a long time bashing the credibility of him.

 

Are you arguing that what he said might be incorrect because he isn't knowledgeable enough?  What he said doesn't seem like it would be groundbreaking stuff you'd need to learn from years of Residency--and just as a side note, many physical therapists do go on to Residencies... it's just a choice for them unlike the medical Doctors.

 

A UCL sprain is a pretty specific injury and seems like physical therapists would be pretty darn familiar with it.  So you either think he's incompetent and lacks the knowledge in his field to provide the educated opinion he provides, or you think he's lying and using his title as a means to convince people his lie is correct.

11 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

Trimball was wrong more often than he was right with player injuries this season. He’s not a medical doctor he’s a doctor of physical therapy. Anyway, he’s correct about the elbow influencing short throws but those are more the screens, bubble screens and wheel routes where he’s throwing at or behind the line of scrimmage.

 

 

 

He was?  Can you provide examples?

11 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

I heard/read about throwing angles and Joshes elbow a while back, it certainly can have an effect, but I am also certain that throw angles can be modified for short throws to make the throws regularly doable, it’s a matter of “proper play designs” that allow for “adjustments” to be successful…, 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

Josh actually said he had to alter his throwing motion because of the injury.

 

I don't understand why this is being viewed as some kind of ridiculous theory.

[Steptide]

He's been golfing, I'd say he's fine 

[transplantbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Jrb1979 said:

I would agree with that "assessment" if that happened after Allen got hurt. They dropped the short passing game well before that. 

 

No they didn't.  Short passing game was going strong all the way up to the bye week. Football Outsiders has a stat called Intended Air Yards per attempt or Average Depth of Target.  I'm providing the link and you can take a look yourself, but knowing that Allen got injured in Week 8, take a look at those first 8 games. The 5 lowest numbers on the entire season were in those first 5 games.  Plus, the Pittsburgh game had 2 passes alone to Davis for over 150 yards, so that 13.5 belies what was actually going on in that game.  Buffalo's best and most efficient games of the season offensively (especially with regards to Allen) were likely the Rams, Titans, 1st Phins game, and the Chiefs game.  All were games with an Average Depth of Target 7.4 yards or lower.

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/players/A/AlleJo02/gamelog/2022/advanced/

[RyanC883]

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Hill was on Miami's roster in 2022.

 

Other than the O-line, KC had one receiver with over 80 catches (Kelce).  M V-S and Juju were other team's throwaways who combined for 5 TDs. 

 

The talent divide wasn't as wide as your are exaggerating...so, it can be done "at some point" without all elite talent.

 

KC's OL was MUCH better than ours, giving Mahomes more time, as well as allowing a 7th round RB Paccheo (sp) to look like a #1 RB.  Their other RB was also an elite receiving threat.  

[Since1981]

Bunch of hooie. the offense sucked, all 17 games didn’t have crossers. OL blew. Dorsey was a horsey. Josh elbow had boobooo. Josh been playing golf. Injury lingers? BS.  
 

Yes his elbow hurt but that’s a smokescreen for the wider issues. 

[Man with No Name]

11 hours ago, 2003Contenders said:

Yes. Tony Romo, who did Bills games multiple times during Josh's elbow injury pretty much stated this repeatedly: it may seem counterintuitive but the short "touch" passes place much more stress on the elbow than the downfield passes.

yup. i remember thinking romo was overstating the issues caused by the elbow. now it kind of seems like maybe Romo actually had a lot more information than the rest of us

[Old Coot]

If you listen to the podcast, the caster gives a well reasoned and nuanced evaluation of Dorsey's season.  In other words, he's out of touch with this board.

 

Seriously, the stats he quotes show that Dorsey did as well as Daboll the previous year and Dorsey had to deal with a wounded Josh.

[JGMcD2]

15 hours ago, Beck Water said:

After delving, he was nice enough to get back to me and said, fundamentally, nothing to write about because it's a non-issue.  Said Josh can play all the golf he wants because the principal stress from golfing is on the opposite side of the elbow and the forces are much lower with a golf swing than throwing a football at NFL velocities.

 

Again, don't have anything written publicly or tweeted, so "believe it or don't", and since he's a PT, believe he knows what he's talking about or don't.

Guys I’ve been around are typically allowed to golf a few weeks post-op. It varies on the guy. Not a ton of concern. 

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

Can't argue with your logic. Not a popular view but very hard to dispute.

 

 

I know nothing about other Buffalo sports but when it comes to the early 90s Bills it is very easy to dispute. HoF coach. HoF pass rusher. HoF receiver. HoF running back. 

 

That team did NOT rely just on Jim Kelly and indeed had multiple famous wins with its backup QB playing. 

 

There is no doubt the current incarnation hasn't got enough pieces around Josh on offense.... but the logic of the post as a whole? In a word, flawed.

[newcam2012]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know nothing about other Buffalo sports but when it comes to the early 90s Bills it is very easy to dispute. HoF coach. HoF pass rusher. HoF receiver. HoF running back. 

 

That team did NOT rely just on Jim Kelly and indeed had multiple famous wins with its backup QB playing. 

 

There is no doubt the current incarnation hasn't got enough pieces around Josh on offense.... but the logic of the post as a whole? In a word, flawed.

And still no Super Bowl wins!

 

Are we witnessing another great QB who goes out with no ring? 

 

What moves, happenings, events, etc.. can you see or project that gives you confidence this team and organization can make a Super Bowl and win it? 

 

What's the likliehood of it happening? 

[newcam2012]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I know nothing about other Buffalo sports but when it comes to the early 90s Bills it is very easy to dispute. HoF coach. HoF pass rusher. HoF receiver. HoF running back. 

 

That team did NOT rely just on Jim Kelly and indeed had multiple famous wins with its backup QB playing. 

 

There is no doubt the current incarnation hasn't got enough pieces around Josh on offense.... but the logic of the post as a whole? In a word, flawed.

Disagree. The post is pretty spot on with the exception of the 90s Bills teams. As you pointed out Kelly had great pieces around him. 

 

Wide right, Tenn miracle, and 13 seconds will forever be etched in many Bills fans memories. It's just part of being a fan. 

[GunnerBill]

9 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

And still no Super Bowl wins!

 

Are we witnessing another great QB who goes out with no ring? 

 

What moves, happenings, events, etc.. can you see or project that gives you confidence this team and organization can make a Super Bowl and win it? 

 

What's the likliehood of it happening? 

 

Well I don't believe the 90s team not winning a Superbowl has any impact whatsoever on the current team. 

 

What gives me confidence? I mean the fact that we are a top 5 team in the NFL. The fact that we just went 13-3 when we were injury ravaged all year. The fact that we have an elite QB and the fact that we have some other pieces in place. Does the roster need some work? Absolutely. But do I thinn it is doable? 100%. And then they are going to need a bounce of the ball or two. 

 

I think this season is part of the panic for Bills fans because I think you can justifiably say the two best teams in football made the Superbowl. And the road to the Bills being that feels tough - it is. But that is rare that the two best teams make it. In 2021 Cincy and LAR made it. I don't think either were among the top 4 teams in football. I could take an argument the Rams were 4th behind KC, Buffalo and Green Bay but I think I'd have had Tampa ahead of them. It isn't always the best two teams that make the dance. Just be in that top 6 or 7, keep yourself alive and get a break of the ball or two.

 

1 minute ago, newcam2012 said:

Disagree. The post is pretty spot on with the exception of the 90s Bills teams. As you pointed out Kelly had great pieces around him. 

 

Wide right, Tenn miracle, and 13 seconds will forever be etched in many Bills fans memories. It's just part of being a fan. 

 

So you disagree, except for agreeing? 

Edited February 25, 2023 by GunnerBill

[NewEra]

15 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I misread your overwrought  hyperbole regarding the O-line.   It's still BS though ("regardless of any stats you want to find", lol wtf?), demonstrably so, too.  Talking about O-lines...Bengals got to the AFCC game with a bad one.  

 

Anyway, so M V-S was part of the "Aaron Rodgers has no weapons crew", but now he's "elite talent" isn KC.  Got it. 

 

Again if you  are changing the argument to coaching as well--it's obvious that, by far, this is the biggest talent gap between the 2 teams.  No argument there.  Swap coaching staffs only and the Bills win a SB in 2022.

 

 

 

 

 

My MVS comment has nothing to do with being and “elite” talent. You said that the talent divide isn’t as much as people say.  I mentioned their WRs to compare them to ours.  Their playmakers are clearly better and their OL is one of the best in the league and includes elite talent.  Our OL was one of the worst.  
 

There are statistics to be found to prove almost any point someone is trying to make, regardless of how off base it is.  The stats that you posted try to minimize the effectiveness of the Philly pass rush is proof of that.  Reddick, Graham and Hargrave were all top 15 in pass rush grades.  Josh sweat was 8th in the league among edge rushers with 13 sacks, his pff grade was an elite 86.  You can find stats to show that their pass rush was overrated…..just as easily as I found stats to the contrary.   

 

the comment about us winning the SB if we had Reid in co, could be…..but our OL wasn’t much better than the OL Reid had vs TB when Mahomes was eaten alive.  
 

[Mr. WEO]

12 hours ago, RyanC883 said:

 

KC's OL was MUCH better than ours, giving Mahomes more time, as well as allowing a 7th round RB Paccheo (sp) to look like a #1 RB.  Their other RB was also an elite receiving threat.  

 

Pacheco had a few more yards than Singletary.  McKinnon was hardly a RB in that Offense. Cook had far more YPC and under a yard less per catch, just didn't get the reps because the Bills don't spread it around like the Chiefs.

 

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

My MVS comment has nothing to do with being and “elite” talent. You said that the talent divide isn’t as much as people say.  I mentioned their WRs to compare them to ours.  Their playmakers are clearly better and their OL is one of the best in the league and includes elite talent.  Our OL was one of the worst.  
 

There are statistics to be found to prove almost any point someone is trying to make, regardless of how off base it is.  The stats that you posted try to minimize the effectiveness of the Philly pass rush is proof of that.  Reddick, Graham and Hargrave were all top 15 in pass rush grades.  Josh sweat was 8th in the league among edge rushers with 13 sacks, his pff grade was an elite 86.  You can find stats to show that their pass rush was overrated…..just as easily as I found stats to the contrary.   

 

the comment about us winning the SB if we had Reid in co, could be…..but our OL wasn’t much better than the OL Reid had vs TB when Mahomes was eaten alive.  
 

 

Eagles pass rush resulted in the 9th best D against the pass.   

 

I've posted elsewhere stats comparing QB hurries, hits, pressures, time from snap to throw or pressure, etc between Bills and Chiefs.  You can look them up yourself or just say the Bills were the worst.

[Beck Water]

19 hours ago, Mango said:

If Allen was taking shots deep so he didn’t feel pain. Ok I can accept that. But based on Allen’s playing style I don’t fully buy into it because he plays this way a lot. 

 

But if this is a continuation of the “he was less accurate because of his arm” conversation this is pointless. Sure we’d like him to go back to being a 70% (‘20) passer instead of 63.3% (‘21 and ‘22). But the gripe with Allen this season (for me) hasn’t really been tossing around uncatchable balls or completion percentage. It’s been decision making. 

 

I will post it for the 100th time. I run through the all-22 after every game. There are guys underneath. There are open receivers. The very best example is the link below.
 

Tough throw and tough catch to Davis in the end zone. But Allen doesn’t even bother to look to an embarrassingly wide open Shakir to his right. None of that has to do with Allen’s elbow. And plays like this happen every single week over and over again. Allen bid a freak, but he needs to learn to play the game like he has less arm talent.  
 

https://imgur.com/a/PG2vZc7

 

I do think there are shots he didn't take the 2nd half of the season because he wasn't confident in his ball placement, given the elbow.  So I do think that impacted the Bills offense.

 

But overall, you're correct that the overarching issue for Allen and the Bills is mental and not physical - Josh going for the "kill shot" all the time instead of taking the sure chain moving completion.  And you're also correct that when I watch film, that's what I see - Dorsey catches a lot of heat for his play design, but often the play design features open guys underneath whom Allen doesn't appear to see.

 

It's my biggest "unknown" about Dorsey.  I think his play design and play calling can improve, sure.  But what I don't know is if he and Joe Brady have what it takes to rein Allen in, or if they're stuck in this "we can't get on him for failing to take the underneath throws because he has the talent to make those crazy throws work".  I say, not only can you get on him, you need to get on him.  That attitude eventually doomed Russ Wilson and Carson Wentz.

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Pacheco had a few more yards than Singletary.  McKinnon was hardly a RB in that Offense. Cook had far more YPC and under a yard less per catch, just didn't get the reps because the Bills don't spread it around like the Chiefs.

 

 

Eagles pass rush resulted in the 9th best D against the pass.   

 

I've posted elsewhere stats comparing QB hurries, hits, pressures, time from snap to throw or pressure, etc between Bills and Chiefs.  You can look them up yourself or just say the Bills were the worst.

And you can continue to put words in my mouth.  Per usual.  Bye again

[stevestojan]

On 2/23/2023 at 7:48 PM, transplantbillsfan said:

If you listen to Joe Marino, you've heard this. I'll post the YouTube video below of his podcast as well as the source material it was quoted in.

 

Both are super interesting.

 

Basically, Josh Allen’s UCL injury is why we may have shifted to a more downfield passing game.

 

From Dr Kyle Trimble: “the arm/elbow angles based on the type of throw affect how much pain there is and how much stress was placed through the joint. Deeper throws require less accuracy due to decreased elbow flexion, thus reducing stress on the injured joint. Shorter and intermediate throws require more precision with a different throwing motion requiring more elbow flexion. The increased elbow flexion places the injured ligament on tension, causing pain. That in turn would affect speed. The faster he threw, the more torque is required through the elbow joint. However, the pain and instability limited how much torque the elbow could accept. With the offense predicated on timing to be in a specific location at a given time, any alteration in mechanics due to pain, adjusting for elbow brace, or speed could greatly affect the accuracy for ball placement to the receiver.”

https://www.cover1.net/buffalo-bills-josh-allen-ken-dorsey-struggles-2022-nfl/

 

As Marino says, it doesn't exonerate Dorsey. But it may give us hope that the offense we saw is not the offense we're seeing moving forward or even the offense he planned for.

This is the first new thread in several weeks that gives me some legitimate reason for thinking next year might still be great. Makes a bit more sense why Dorsey was playing Madden for the second half of the season.