Just Gonna Say It: Von Miller was very good, but not great this year.

[TH3]

7 hours ago, wppete said:

Huge lose but Rousseau has to step

up. Let’s see if he is for real or just another average player. 

What do people mean “step up”?   So is he thinking …”Been cruising at 80 percent…..time to really start trying”?

8 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

Yes, the cap hit will suck, but it's not like the Bills lost Nick Bosa or Matthew Judon.

 

He was playing at a Jerry Hughes level.  A great player, but on the downward slope of his career. 

 

This is survivable and I don't think it hurts the Bills Superbowl chances much if at all.

 

Now excuse me while I pull my on flame resistant suit. 

 

There are 4-6 more important starters on D than VM

[Max Fischer]

You didn’t have to say anything and saved yourself the embarrassment. 
 

How many “very good” available DEs in the league, how many DEs are as good as Von Miller this year, and how many are as good on this current roster?   How many Bills DE force opponents to change their scheme?
 

If the Bills improve in other areas (CB, run game, WR2, etc) I do believe this team still has a very good chance to win the SB. But there is no doubt the Bills are much better with Miller on the team and he’s been worth every penny. 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Max Fischer

[Livinginthepast]

My mind has been all over the place on this topic in the past 12 hours. I think the OP is partially correct about Von's actual play impact (to a point) but misses the psychological impact of the injury and Miller not being there. That to me is the biggest part of this. The rest of the team seemed to feed off Von's positivity, calm and leadership under pressure. I really hope that the team can not only survive this but that we see other players step up and just do what they need to do going forward. It would be easy to let this be a devastating gut punch in a season that has had a few of them but now I hope we can see them come together. Time to focus and finish the job this year, no excuses.

[Bkelly]

McBean said in the presser that as soon as he can travel, Miller will be on the sideline for games. I'm guessing he'll be coaching up the boys to play like the grown men that they are. He will be missed on the field but don't underestimate his ability to continue to teach Groot, AJ, Boogie, etc.

[ProcessTruster]

6 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Oh my god after all of the Tre White bashing this year, can you imagine how much hate Von will get on here if he doesn’t play until next Christmas???

 

Although it is weird how much all of the haters have quieted down about Tre since he started playing…weird 

Bills have managed Tre brilliantly.  The proof is on the field.   Fans don't know what they are talking about.   

 

I was a pretty good athlete a long time ago, had an MCL tear (only) and man , you are down for awhile and need to completely rehab and get past complete knee instability/pain ... can't imagine what MCL plus ACL tear will take to recover from.   Maybe as an edge rusher since you are the agressor, (vs Tre who must react to everything) Von can be effective on the field earlier.  Hope so.

[No_Matter_What]

8 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

Yes, the cap hit will suck, but it's not like the Bills lost Nick Bosa or Matthew Judon.

 

He was playing at a Jerry Hughes level.  A great player, but on the downward slope of his career. 

 

This is survivable and I don't think it hurts the Bills Superbowl chances much if at all.

 

Now excuse me while I pull my on flame resistant suit. 

 

 

I appreciate the effort but you are just wrong. He was playing very good overall, but the point is that we got him to close games in PO, esp. against Chiefs.

 

We played them already and he delivered. He stopped or was major reason we stopped at least 3 Chiefs drives in the 2nd half, including the last one.

 

He'll be missed big time.

 

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig losing Von Miller hurts
 

my hope is that Greg Rousseau takes up the slack

 

Thing is that it doesn't help to replace Miller. If Rousseau plays great, then fine, we have one great DE. But if Miller was on the field, we would have two.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

We would’ve been much improved on the DL keeping Hughes and adding Jones, Phillips, and Lawson.

 

But we signed Miller for the playoffs. That’s the frustrating part of the injury. Now we need someone to step up that can at least be as good as Hughes was for us. Shaq Lawson is the guy. He’s got to step up opposite Rousseau.

 

[strive_for_five_guy]

Jerry Hughes had sack totals of 4.5, 4.5, and 2 his last three years with us.  Von had 8 sacks in 10.5 games here this year, well on pace to surpass Jerry’s 3 year sack total by the end of this season….

[Franco_92]

6 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Oh my god after all of the Tre White bashing this year, can you imagine how much hate Von will get on here if he doesn’t play until next Christmas???

 

Although it is weird how much all of the haters have quieted down about Tre since he started playing…weird 

Having just gone through the experience of seeing his impact and knowing it won't be there in the playoffs against mahomes, I'm almost HOPING he doesn't play until next Christmas. I just want him healthy in January. 

[Ya Digg?]

2 hours ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

Yes because, well, you know HE'S PLAYING.

 

Finally. 

 

Von Miller is going to cost a huge amount of cap for literally no impact next year (and the rest of this year),  much like Tre did this year. But unlike Tre, he's ancient. 

 

That's cap dollars that could be invested in OL or WR that's just going to be laying on a training table. Harsh, but true. It was a great idea but a REALLY bad contract by Beane.

 

Dude you’re justifying some of the terrible takes YOU in particular and others had about Tre-questioning his loyalty, toughness, all that crap. Where is all of this anger towards him now that he’s playing? Or do you admit what you and others were saying was just absolutely terrible? Are you going to say the same things about Von next year? 

[GolfandBills]

8 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Reggie White was dominating in his late 30's. This is a tough blow but like Tre, Von Miller will heal and be ready to contribute by late Oct or Nov. He's got 5 more years on his contract. He'll be back and have an impact. 

It’s more like 1 or 2 more years realistically but who’s counting 

8 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Reggie White was dominating in his late 30's. This is a tough blow but like Tre, Von Miller will heal and be ready to contribute by late Oct or Nov. He's got 5 more years on his contract. He'll be back and have an impact. 

It’s more like 1 or 2 more years realistically but who’s counting 

8 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Reggie White was dominating in his late 30's. This is a tough blow but like Tre, Von Miller will heal and be ready to contribute by late Oct or Nov. He's got 5 more years on his contract. He'll be back and have an impact. 

It’s more like 1 or 2 more years realistically but who’s counting 

[Greg S]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

There is no way to put lipstick on this pig losing Von Miller hurts
 

my hope is that Greg Rousseau takes up the slack

 

Oliver from the interior line as well. He was a beast against the Lions when Von got hurt. He's a vet who will be counted on to pick up the slack. 

[LeGOATski]

Von was the exact kind of finisher they needed for the playoffs. The whole reason they brought him to Buffalo was for the playoffs. He already showed what he could do in big games this year. 

 

This thread is stupid.

[Warriorspikes51]

Von was the difference against the Chiefs.  He wrecked the game in the 4th with 2 sacks in critical moments.  If he was on this team last year, 13 seconds never happens 

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by Warriorspikes51

[Lane Meyer K12]

It is a big loss. Now teams do not have to plan for him. Just having him there as a threat to make a play is worth its weight. Someone will have to step up and fill the void. The pass rush overall has taken a hit. 

[mjt328]

9 hours ago, KzooMike said:

Von was never meant for the regular season. He can and will turn it on as he see's fit. He's smart like that because he still has enough in the tank to dominate any play, but he can't do it for a whole game. One thing I can say for sure is if it's 4th down and we are in the Super Bowl and we need one stop to win it, he's the most important player on the team in that moment. 

 

This.  

Much of Von Miller's current game is setting-up blockers for later in the game, and saving his best moves for the right moment.

 

At his age, we really shouldn't have expected 15-20 sacks or weekly dominance.  What we saw in the Chiefs game was exactly why he was signed.  There were 2-3 moments that we absolutely needed a play from the defense, and each time he got right past the OT and was right in Patrick Mahomes face.  That was totally missing in the AFC Divisional Playoff.

 

No way around the truth.  This is another crushing injury to a team, that has suffered way too many this season.  That doesn't mean the Bills are doomed.  But it does mean we need players like Greg Rousseau, AJ Epenesa and Boogie Basham to start living up to their draft status.  No more gradual development.  Because if we aren't getting regular pressure from the D-Line in the playoffs, some of these teams are going to give us lots of trouble.

 

[gordong]

I problem as I see it, anyone can post here....   

 

 

 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

He makes everyone around him better. You'll see. 

HUGE loss, and he had 8 sacks, a few of them at very opportunistic times. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

59 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

Dude you’re justifying some of the terrible takes YOU in particular and others had about Tre-questioning his loyalty, toughness, all that crap. Where is all of this anger towards him now that he’s playing? Or do you admit what you and others were saying was just absolutely terrible? Are you going to say the same things about Von next year? 

You've got me mistaken for someone else.

 

I asked WHY tre continued to be out for as long as he was after he was activated, but i don't think he was particularly malicious.

 

I thought signing Von for the dollars Beane did was a mistake when he signed him. Now that he's hurt, I like it less.

 

[BillsFanSD]

The last few years have convinced me that the biggest division among humans isn't Republican vs. Democrat or urban vs. rural or religious vs. secular, but people who mark their beliefs to empirical reality and people who don't.  If you think that losing Von Miller is roughly the equivalent of losing Jerry Hughes, you're just wrong.  I don't whether it's because you're new to football, or if it's because you're addicted to wishful thinking or what, but you're objectively mistaken. 

 

Miller is a first-ballot HOFer who offensive coordinators had to account for every time he was on the field.  His presence made everybody around him better.  Now, it's not like Oliver and Groot suck or anything -- they're very good! -- but there are increasing returns to scale on pass rushers, and losing our best one is going to have an outsized effect on the overall performance of our D-line. 

[SoCal Deek]

3 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

The last few years have convinced me that the biggest division among humans isn't Republican vs. Democrat or urban vs. rural or religious vs. secular, but people who mark their beliefs to empirical reality and people who don't.  If you think that losing Von Miller is roughly the equivalent of losing Jerry Hughes, you're just wrong.  I don't whether it's because you're new to football, or if it's because you're addicted to wishful thinking or what, but you're objectively mistaken. 

 

Miller is a first-ballot HOFer who offensive coordinators had to account for every time he was on the field.  His presence made everybody around him better.  Now, it's not like Oliver and Groot suck or anything -- they're very good! -- but there are increasing returns to scale on pass rushers, and losing our best one is going to have an outsized effect on the overall performance of our D-line. 

Wait….isn’t the biggest difference Ranch or blue cheese? 

[BigPappy]

10 hours ago, ChicagoRic said:

Yes, the cap hit will suck, but it's not like the Bills lost Nick Bosa or Matthew Judon.

 

He was playing at a Jerry Hughes level.  A great player, but on the downward slope of his career. 

 

This is survivable and I don't think it hurts the Bills Superbowl chances much if at all.

 

Now excuse me while I pull my on flame resistant suit. 

 

 I am just going to say it: If you truly believe that, then you clearly do not understand football, nor do you understand what he really brings to the table when he is on the field. 

 opposing teams game plan against him. He is a difference making because he changes how an offense schemes its plays, making sure that if he isn't being double teamed, he is al least given a chip block by a second offensive linemen. He free's up the other members of the defense to allow them to make plays. THAT is why he is a difference maker player. And even when he is being double teamed or chip blocked by a secondary O-Linemen, he still makes plays at the end of the game. That is why he called a "closer" by professional analysts. 

 

 I think maybe you should study the game a bit more so you can better understand it, or maybe listen more to the professional analysts that do and then watch and see what they mean before you run your mouth about something you don't understand. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, strive_for_five_guy said:

Jerry Hughes had sack totals of 4.5, 4.5, and 2 his last three years with us.  Von had 8 sacks in 10.5 games here this year, well on pace to surpass Jerry’s 3 year sack total by the end of this season….

And we were never close to full strength on defense. It’s frustrating. Just when we’re getting a little bit healthier. 

[muppy]

Von Miller didn't ask to be injured. Its a lot of vitriol / frustration over an action HE never wanted and I am thinking deep down is as heartbroken as we are. happened.

 

In the short term this sucks. Of course he being off the active is a major blow and sucks Badly. But all I have learned and seen of Von Miller is this individual

 

will do Everything humanly and medically possible to return to the field ASAP

 

Book it.

 

as far as our DL is concerned now the rally cry must be play OUR game and let the chips fall where they may. Control what they can and play as hard fast and dominantly as possible.

 

GO BILLS

[TC in St. Louis]

I don't know.  Maybe the OP was trying to lessen the blow of losing Von.  He has had a significant impact on his teammates, and much of that was off the field.  He can still have impact.  When Jim Kelly was hurt, Frank Reich stepped up.  Von is down.  His teammates will get the job done, with him being an active coach and advocate.

[cwater10]

46 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

The last few years have convinced me that the biggest division among humans isn't Republican vs. Democrat or urban vs. rural or religious vs. secular, but people who mark their beliefs to empirical reality and people who don't.  If you think that losing Von Miller is roughly the equivalent of losing Jerry Hughes, you're just wrong.  I don't whether it's because you're new to football, or if it's because you're addicted to wishful thinking or what, but you're objectively mistaken. 

 

Miller is a first-ballot HOFer who offensive coordinators had to account for every time he was on the field.  His presence made everybody around him better.  Now, it's not like Oliver and Groot suck or anything -- they're very good! -- but there are increasing returns to scale on pass rushers, and losing our best one is going to have an outsized effect on the overall performance of our D-line. 

Great post.  There are unmistakable, and visual "measurables" that Von brings to the table that cannot just be replaced.  Period.  He is a first ballot HOF for a reason.  Just take one look at that move where he makes himself about a foot tall for a moment and goes under a block.  Who does that?  You have the physical ability to do that or not.  Almost nobody but Von does or ever has.  That very rare skill set will be missed greatly every week on the field.

 

But I also think that a purely empirical approach to a players value misses some of what coaches and GM's call "immeasurables".   There is good reason that McDermott likes to have one seasoned vet in every position group.  It has a lot to do with player development and influence in ways of professionalism and perfecting the craft.  I could offer the obvious improvement in Groot as an example of this, but that is too much of a gray area.  Groot was going to improve regardless.  For better illustration look at a guy like Epenesa, who seemed to be floundering before Von arrived.  Nobody has talked much about it, but it was funny how his return last week had a steadying impact.  He is now a steady vet, who can be relied upon.  Look even at a journeyman like Shaq Lawson.  When needed, he has been performing at remarkably high level, making one impactful play after another.  I do believe that Von's presence in that DL room has contributed to the development of every player in that room.  

 

The cap dollars invested in Von won't yield full value on the field while he is away.  I also believe that Beane and McDermott had other non empirical value in mind when they decided to invest in Von Miller.  I believe that non empirical player development influence is real, if not measurable.  And I think that in that way, the investment will continue to pay dividends while he is away from the playing field.  He will be back with the team soon.  That will have value.  That is not wishful thinking.  It is just taking a step back and taking a broad view of the bigger picture with an open mind.  We all bring different gifts to the table in our lives.  Von Miller brings a ton of gifts to The Bills table.  Some of those gifts will be unavailable for an extended time.  Many of them will remain.

[corta765]

Wherever or whoever has the worst post of the year rankings please make sure this one is in the top 5

[newcam2012]

9 hours ago, Scott7975 said:

Whatever you have to tell yourself to cope.

Why was Von signed? To close out games in the biggest moments of the game. No Hyde and No Von. This is a huge blow to the team. Let's be realistic. This talk about Von helping the young guys and being a suedo coach just doesn't cut it. Come playoff time, Bills fans will miss Von more than we know. It remains to be seen if the Bills can win it all without Von and Hyde. Certainly not optimal to lose 2 of your best players on both sides of the ball. 

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Why was Von signed? To close out games in the biggest moments of the game. No Hyde and No Von. This is a huge blow to the team. Let's be realistic. This talk about Von helping the young guys and being a suedo coach just doesn't cut it. Come playoff time, Bills fans will miss Von more than we know. It remains to be seen if the Bills can win it all without Von and Hyde. Certainly not optimal to lose 2 of your best players on both sides of the ball. 

 

Thats not what I was getting at with my post.  Its a huge loss.  The OP is deluding himself into thinking Von wasnt that big a deal so he could cope.

 

That is not to say the Bills still cant do what we all want them to do.  It did get tougher though.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Scott7975

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

33 minutes ago, newcam2012 said:

Why was Von signed? To close out games in the biggest moments of the game. No Hyde and No Von. This is a huge blow to the team. Let's be realistic. This talk about Von helping the young guys and being a suedo coach just doesn't cut it. Come playoff time, Bills fans will miss Von more than we know. It remains to be seen if the Bills can win it all without Von and Hyde. Certainly not optimal to lose 2 of your best players on both sides of the ball. 

it is what it is, crying about it wont work. if you are so hip on the game, you know injuries will and do occur. if it has the tragic impact you seem to imply, so be it. next man up, if it doesn't work you'll have the off season to regroup, get healthy and look for anther shot in 2023.

[newcam2012]

16 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

it is what it is, crying about it wont work. if you are so hip on the game, you know injuries will and do occur. if it has the tragic impact you seem to imply, so be it. next man up, if it doesn't work you'll have the off season to regroup, get healthy and look for anther shot in 2023.

Not crying at all. Of course injuries are part of the game. For sure it's next man up. Hopefully, it's good enough and we will know soon. 

 

I get the next year talk. It's valid and the Bills should be in contention for years. However, this was supposed to be the year. Perhaps my expectations were out of whack. I didn't anticipate the level of injuries the Bills would encounter. In my mind, injuries were probably the only real threat to stop the Bills from hoisting that Lombardi. I'm begging to think that might become reality. Hope I'm wrong. 

 

 

 

[The Red King]

Von is better in the playoffs then he is in the regular season.  That's why we got him.  This is like being kicked out of the theater after the trailers, not what you paid for.

 

Next season I say we wrap him in bubble wrap and throw him in the freezer until the playoffs.

[Aesop]

[SCBills]

He’s still very good, but not a dominant game to game EDGE, I think we can all admit that .. but he’s clutch af and we saw that in the KC game.   
 

Late in game, up by a score, and we need a stop, chances are Von comes through.   He has the ability to flip a switch that few in the NFL have.  
 

That’s what we lost.  Have to hope the collective can give us that moving forward.  

[auburnbillsbacker]

I think he was excellent.  He had close to a sack a game and made key plays at the end of games.  He even played the run pretty well.  

[Brand J]

We need to find another young Von equivalent which is next to impossible given where we draft nowadays. 

[Bray Wyatt]

what is the difference between very good and great? Is that what we are debating here? lmao

[Solomon Grundy]

13 hours ago, wppete said:

Huge lose but Rousseau has to step

up. Let’s see if he is for real or just another average player. 

What about Epenesa? Basham? Rousseau has shown promise. Can't say that much about the aforementioned. 

[Toyo321]

41 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

We need to find another young Von equivalent which is next to impossible given where we draft nowadays. 

It is really tough when you dedicate so much cap money to one play like this.  The when he gets hurt and put on IR you are now in CAP hell again.

We really should have tried to get someone much younger than VON and now we are screwed because there is no guarantee on his rehab and time to return in 2023.

Same deal with Tre.   Lots of money tied up with players trying to get back to pre injury form.  The jury is still out on Tre until he gets some more playing time on the field in game situations, to see where he truly is physically and performance wise.

[ShakAttack]

We can't replace Von.  There is no sugar coating it.  That said, we are still a pretty good defense without Von, when healthy. 

 

What we need is one of our young guys to turn into the guy that makes big plays in big moments.  I'm not counting on it, but that's what we need for the playoffs, because that situation will most likely come up.   The reason I don't count on it happening is because that is what separates the elite defenders from the rest, and most teams do NOT have a Von Miller / Aaron Donald / Micah Parsons / Myles Garrett.  

 

That said, I remember a few years ago, I believe 2019, there were a few games in which I recall our secondary closing out games with 4th quarter interceptions.  We might not find the "big moment" pass rusher on our roster anymore, but Jordan Poyer and Tre White could make the big play in the secondary......  We did not have White OR Miller last year in the playoffs obviously.  At least we will have one of them now.... I think.

 

Anyway, a couple wins against the Jets and Dolphins will certainly have us feeling like this defense can get it done against playoff caliber teams without Von Miller, and I really want to be convinced of that as a Bills fan, so.. while I may not be expecting the blowout against the Jets that Vegas is putting out there,  if we can be the first defense this season to slow down Mike White and the resurgent Jets offense,  that should go a long way towards our confidence in this "new" defense.