Greg Cossell not pulling any punches on Bills: "This is not a super talented offense"

[The Frankish Reich]

2 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

Morse, Dawkins are good. OLine is not as bad as portrayed. Not a strength, but people pile on too much.

 

How many teams are stacked with only top talent? Ridiculous. 2nd scoring offense. Knox, Davis are better than average. Sure it's not Kelce or the Jefferson/Thiele duo but anyway

Dawkins: very good 

Morse: average in his decline phase

Rest of O Line: replacement level

Knox: someday potential may translate to actual play. Now? Average

Davis: better than average, not clear how much room for improvement there 

RBs: average

So …. he’s not wrong. 
EDIT: I checked PFF just for fun. More or less agrees with me other than Singletary and Cook rate quite well (above average) and Davis rates as purely average at best

Edited December 1, 2022 by The Frankish Reich

[Governor]

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

We don’t have the physical  defenses Brady had and we never will under this regime.

[Jauronimo]

19 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Well gunner, I really hope that that’s the case and not a situation where injuries dictate that we have to play him and then all of a sudden he has a career day

A career day for Shakir would be 4 catches for 32 yards.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 hours ago, Jerome007 said:

Morse, Dawkins are good. OLine is not as bad as portrayed. Not a strength, but people pile on too much.

 

How many teams are stacked with only top talent? Ridiculous. 2nd scoring offense. Knox, Davis are better than average. Sure it's not Kelce or the Jefferson/Thiele duo but anyway

or even Hill/Waddle/Giesecki

 

 

[Scott7975]

2 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Interesting thoughts here on the Ross Tucker podcast from NFL insider Greg Cossell. Basically stating the obvious with JA17 being surrounded by a bad oline not much else outside of Diggs:

 

 

 

He is correct but I am sure you were super excited to see this so you could run here and post it.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

41 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

Well...if Teller was playing like that here, he wouldn't have been traded.

They'll allow ALLLLLL kinds of time for a guy like Oliver, but Teller didn't even see the start of a season.

 

Spilled milk now, but they'd better start taking stocking the offense's cabinet seriously.

 

[John from Riverside]

1 minute ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

or even Hill/Waddle/Giesecki

 

 

I mean, what does this even mean so Miami put their money into their offense

 

yet

 

The bills are still in the top five of office without allocating all of the resources towards it

 

and Miami’s defense is not that good

 

 

Just now, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

They'll allow ALLLLLL kinds of time for a guy like Oliver, but Teller didn't even see the start of a season.

 

Spilled milk now, but they'd better start taking stocking the offense's cabinet seriously.

 

Teller handling was obviously a mistake

[Beck Water]

1 hour ago, whorlnut said:

How about taking a guy like Dylan Parham in round 3 rather than an undersized defender like Bernard?

 

I haven't seen him play, but I know he's been starting for the Raiders.  So if he can start somewhere in the league as a rookie, OK.

 

The one that really torques me is 2021, Boogie Basham in the 2nd round 2 picks ahead of where KC took Creed Humphrey, when we'd already drafted for DE in the 2nd round of 2020 and the 1st round of 2021.  Humphrey isn't just starting, he's starting for one of the best teams in the league.

 

I know we had Morse at C, but Humphrey said he could play guard and I believe it from his physicals.  We coulda done what the Bills did with Eric Wood, play him at G a season or 2 and then moved him over.  And I hear "don't draft for need, but Basham is a guy Beane reported telling "don't be satisfied with your role as a backup, go out and compete to be a starter" - in the 2nd round, after a year, that's what you're telling a guy?

 

Grumph.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

I mean, what does this even mean so Miami put their money into their offense

 

 

That's exactly the point. It's where the Bills should be spending while we have an all-world QB

 

[Beck Water]

1 minute ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

They'll allow ALLLLLL kinds of time for a guy like Oliver, but Teller didn't even see the start of a season.

 

Spilled milk now, but they'd better start taking stocking the offense's cabinet seriously.

 

 

What are you talkin' about?

 

Teller started 7 games for the Bills at LG in 2018

Did they give him enough time or, in hindsight, make a talent evaluation mistake, sure. 

 

But c'mon man don't revise what factually occurred.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Beck Water said:

 

What are you talkin' about?

 

Teller started 7 games for the Bills at LG in 2018

Did they give him enough time or, in hindsight, make a talent evaluation mistake, sure. 

 

But c'mon man don't revise what factually occurred.

 

My bad. The point still kind of stands.

 

unless 7 games is now the standard.

 

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

That's exactly the point. It's where the Bills should be spending while we have an all-world QB

 

In hindsight, that was probably Carolina's mistake with Cam Newton - making a strategic decision that an all-world QB could compensate for a mediocre OL and middling WR corps, and I share concerns that Beane is going down a path to replicate that mistake.

 

2 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

My bad. The point still kind of stands

unless 7 games is now the standard.

 

No, but the point is the Bills did have 7 games of film where he looked better than Vlad Ducasse (a very low bar) but not good.  When you go back and look at it through the lens of that off season, the Bills were determined to immediately upgrade the OL to "serviceable" in front of Allen so it was a numbers/position game.   It's been hashed out here a bunch of times, so I'm not gonna go into more depth on it here.

Edited December 1, 2022 by Beck Water

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

hell of a thread for "gameday" isn't it. oh, I know, I hear the echo's now that the truth hurts. well, I have still enjoyed the hell out of this team more then I have teams of recent years. you would almost dread gameday, knowing chances were always good the bills would lose.

 

now, they put up a fight with the team they have and gut it out, making for a good watch on gameday. sure, they could do better at some positions but sitting at 8-3 going in a divisional match up, no need to be crying the blues on what they need, save that for the offseason. they are who they are and they'll do their best to get the job done with the personnel they have to work with and may even surprise that cossell character and win this game.

[whorlnut]

10 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I haven't seen him play, but I know he's been starting for the Raiders.  So if he can start somewhere in the league as a rookie, OK.

 

The one that really torques me is 2021, Boogie Basham in the 2nd round 2 picks ahead of where KC took Creed Humphrey, when we'd already drafted for DE in the 2nd round of 2020 and the 1st round of 2021.  Humphrey isn't just starting, he's starting for one of the best teams in the league.

 

I know we had Morse at C, but Humphrey said he could play guard and I believe it from his physicals.  We coulda done what the Bills did with Eric Wood, play him at G a season or 2 and then moved him over.  And I hear "don't draft for need, but Basham is a guy Beane reported telling "don't be satisfied with your role as a backup, go out and compete to be a starter" - in the 2nd round, after a year, that's what you're telling a guy?

 

Grumph.

This one burns me as well. It was really tough at the time and it only gets worse as we see how good Humphrey has become since then. 

[Mango]

3 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Tom Brady is the GOAT. Regularly turned average receivers into good ones.

 

Brady had a better OL a lot of the time and is a better pure passer than Josh. Agreed though, he is the goat. 

That said, I think that once a QB signs the dotted line on a mega-deal the expectation is that they elevate average receivers and average OL on a regular basis. I include guys like Rodgers when I say that. There is clearly some nuance with FO's and coaching, but there has to be some understanding that taking a significant portion of the cap comes with consequences. 

 

EDIT: This is where the FO trading Teller, or drafting a million RB's in the top 100, or pass rushers over and over again bites us. You lose an opportunity to upgrade another position when you start doubling up to make up for unmet expectations. 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Mango

[Thurman#1]

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

 

 

Yup. The most common formula for winning an SB is to have a great QB and a really good defense. There are other ways but that's the most common. 

 

You can't have a really bad group surrounding the QB. And we don't. They've got no other superstars than Diggs and Allen but the rest are good or better.

 

It'd be nice if you could have sensational players at every position, but it's not realistic.

 

 

[WideNine]

I certainly think we could better scheme and involve more of our playmakers not named Diggs, but defenses have adapted better to contain offenses with QBs like ours.

 

It is the nature of the game. When one team does well frustrating an offense other teams copy that and add their own wrinkles.

 

Sharp had an article that kind of touched on that though he focused on the Chiefs and other offenses and did not include Allen and our offense in the mix which was odd.

 

https://www.sharpfootballanalysis.com/analysis/defense-blitz-coverage-staley-fangio-2022-sharp-football-preview/

 

 

 

[Chaos]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

When did Brady win with an oline the quality of the Bills current online?

[GunnerBill]

46 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Well gunner, I really hope that that’s the case and not a situation where injuries dictate that we have to play him and then all of a sudden he has a career day

 

He will break out at some point. I think his talent dictates that. I am still sure it will happen for him. But at the moment he isn't on the field as much as Isaiah because Isaiah is getting open more than he is. It is that simple

[WhoTom]

It's not a super-talented offense, yet it manages to put up an average of 28 points per game, second only to KC.

 

 

[BIGFOOTspaceman]

23 minutes ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

That's exactly the point. It's where the Bills should be spending while we have an all-world QB

 

I disagree (sarcasm.)  Our bend but don't break defense really needs more rotational D line talent.  And if we could add more 6th round draft talent into the secondary that should put us over the top.

 

McD gave an interview before the draft and was quoted as saying, " F*$% the offense.  Defense wins championships you blowhard."

[RyanC883]

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

No he's not. But let's not just ignore all the defensive draft picks over the last few years that could've gone to players helping out our #1 asset.  No one to blame but McB. It was their call even when the knew the OL was weak.

 

bingo.  Some of the D picks were good(Rousseau).  But then taking Basham over the draft's top Center/Guard, and not taking WRs until the 4th round (outside of arguably Diggs), is not going well.  And taking a CB in Rd 1 this year, when they were available later now seems questionable over Watson, etc.  

 

All that said, we should be set on D now, and should be taking BPA with a lean toward offense, be it OL, RB or WR.  

Edited December 1, 2022 by RyanC883

[Beck Water]

49 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

Well gunner, I really hope that that’s the case and not a situation where injuries dictate that we have to play him and then all of a sudden he has a career day

 

Aside from week 2, where he played 35% of the snaps for the injured Davis, and week 5, where he played 70% of the snaps with Crowder IR'd and McKenzie concussed and out, Shakir has been averaging 15-16 snaps (20-25%) a game.  He got twice that (34 snaps, 44%) in the most recent game against Detroit.

 

So to reprise: Shakir has been active for 9 out of 11 games so far this season.  He's been on the field for more than 1/3 of the offensive snaps in 3 of those 9 games.

In 5 of the other games, he's been on the field for 1/5 to 1/4 of the offensive snaps.

 

In that time, he's had 7 receptions on 15 targets.  Even worse, in the last 4 games, he's had 2 targets and 1 reception. 

 

They aren't using him as a blocker (his blocking is improving, but still very inconsistent), so one has to assume he's running routes. 

 

How many snaps in how many games do you think will be required for him to show us this breakout?  I don't mean to dunk on the guy, he's a rookie, he's shown promise, but he IS getting on the field and he's not getting targets, so can we stop pretending that the Bills are unfairly depriving him of all chances to show what he can do? 

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

3 hours ago, SCBills said:

 

Injuries has been an issue for the defense.   On offense, Morse has missed a game and now Dawkins misses a game.   Other teams have lost OL starters for the season.  "Hope is not a strategy", so if Kumerow/Crowder injuries can tank the skill position group, then that's all you need to know about the dire straits we entered the season with at WR.

 

Gabe Davis missed one game and wasn't exactly healthy the first few weeks.  This is the 2nd game Morse missed, Brown has missed two, Knox missed one game plus wasn't completely healthy in others.  Crowder played a total of 4 games, and McKenzie also missed one.  On top of that Allen has been less than 100% healthy past 3 games.  So is far more than those two you mention.  All starters I mention, didn't even bother with back ups.

 

How quickly we forget!

Edited December 1, 2022 by Ed_Formerly_of_Roch

[billsbackto81]

I find this kinda perplexing.

 

What is the measure of a very good or elite offense? Statistics, am I right? 

 

So...... Statistically the Bills have had a Top Offense in this league the past 3 seasons. Now, I like Cosell and his insight but how can you state something like that when the numbers prove otherwise. 

 

You want to say they don't pass the "eye test"? Ok, I can agree with that. I'm starting to think Daboll is being missed at this point. He seemed to utilize his roster talent a lot better than Dorsey has. 

 

What does KC have on O outside of Mahomes and Kelce? Nobody is saying anything disparaging about their offense are they?

 

I think we really need to start looking at our coaching right now. 

 

Like many here I do think the O line is what's holding the offense back.

[Mango]

8 minutes ago, RyanC883 said:

 

bingo.  Some of the picks were find (Rousseau).  But then taking Basham over the draft's top Center/Guard, and not taking WRs until the 4th round (outside of arguably Diggs), is not going well.  And taking a CB in Rd 1 this year, when they were available later now seems questionable over Watson, etc.  

 

All that said, we should be set on D now, and should be taking BPA with a lean toward offense, be it OL, RB or WR.  

 

 

We are paying the piper a bit at the moment. We have a good roster so let me start there. 

But we are also paying for Singletary, Moss, Cook, Hines where we devoted 2x3rds, 1x2nd, and a 6th. At the end of the season we may (likely?) only have one of them on the roster and that is Cook. Hines has an out for $0 dead cap. Otherwise he is $4.7M and we are tight on cap so I don't think he is kept. That means we likely draft ANOTHER RB. 

 

You can rinse and repeat for DE/DL. AJE, Basham, Rousseau, then paying Von means we don't draft, extend, or sign multiple other players at other position groups. This group goes on much further than that when you factor in that we have had one of the highest paid DL in the league for 4-5 years with minimal return. 

 

2 position groups alone are 3-5 top 100 picks and a big time pass rusher contract that could (should?) have been spent elsewhere if it weren't for striking out and redrafting. 

[The Firebaugh Kid]

He’s just pissed off because he doesn’t have a cool iconic voice like Howard.

[whorlnut]

8 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

I find this kinda perplexing.

 

What is the measure of a very good or elite offense? Statistics, am I right? 

 

So...... Statistically the Bills have had a Top Offense in this league the past 3 seasons. Now, I like Cosell and his insight but how can you state something like that when the numbers prove otherwise. 

 

You want to say they don't pass the "eye test"? Ok, I can agree with that. I'm starting to think Daboll is being missed at this point. He seemed to utilize his roster talent a lot better than Dorsey has. 

 

What does KC have on O outside of Mahomes and Kelce? Nobody is saying anything disparaging about their offense are they?

 

I think we really need to start looking at our coaching right now. 

 

Like many here I do think the O line is what's holding the offense back.

The defense was ranked number one last year and all anyone wanted to do was say how “misleading” it was.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, SCBills said:

Yup.  

 

For all the "armchair quarterback" commentary about fanbases, many in the Bills fanbase were correctly concerned about WR heading into the season.  

 

We were told we had "pass catchers" and not to view them as inside, outside receivers or running backs.  It sounded dumb them, and it's proven to be dumb now. 

 

Not saying Davis and McKenzie can't make a jump or that Dorsey won't figure out how to utilize Knox and Hines, but we're getting late into the season and so far Cosell is spot on.  The obsession to constantly load up on defense (sans Von Miller) has proven to be more than just a fanbase frustration.. It's been borderline malpractice in how to treat a franchise QB ala Rodgers in Green Bay. 

Especially in key moments where McDermott and Frazier play overly soft coverage and don’t do anything in the front 7 to allow conversions.

 

A great point you make and I don’t think this is getting enough discussion, is you only have 6 games left.

 

So there is not a lot of time to practically get more of a route tree for Gabe, or start using Knox over the middle, or suddenly develop a screen game with Hines. 
 

Diggs just works, and the Bills have leaned into that.

 

But nobody else seems to be on an upward trajectory. There is no rhythm to what we do. 
 

Edited December 1, 2022 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Buffalo03]

I actually think this is a Super talented offense with a not so talented play caller

[Beck Water]

 

3 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

I find this kinda perplexing.

What is the measure of a very good or elite offense? Statistics, am I right? 

So...... Statistically the Bills have had a Top Offense in this league the past 3 seasons. Now, I like Cosell and his insight but how can you state something like that when the numbers prove otherwise. 

 

So I think you might be mishearing or misinterpreting what Cosell actually said.  DId you listen to it?

 

He's not saying that the Bills don't have a very good offense.

 

He's saying that people are so focused on what a special talent Josh Allen is, that we lose sight that the Bills:

-don't have a real good oline (he's said elsewhere he sees it as average or a little above, not more)

-don't have a consistent run game

-have one very good WR in Diggs and "a bunch of other guys"

 

Is there any part of that you disagree with?  If so, which part, and why?

 

3 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

What does KC have on O outside of Mahomes and Kelce? Nobody is saying anything disparaging about their offense are they?

 

KC invested very heavily in re-building their OL after the superbowl loss in 2020.  They moved on from Eric Fisher.  They invested a ton of picks (1st, 3rd 4th and 5th, got a 2nd and 6th back) and then a $16.7M franchise tag into Orlando Brown from the Ravens.  They signed Joe Thuney to a 5 year, $80M contract in FA.  They drafted Creed Humphrey in the 2nd round.  They had a bit of luck with Trey Smith as a 6th round pick working out at RG.  Basically they kept one guy, Andrew Wylie, who became their RT.  And it wasn't just counting on luck, they had alternatives competing at G and T.

 

Prior to this year, the Chiefs had Tyreek Hill at WR and Edwards Helaire at RB.  Their run game was "meh" (16th in the league) but they had over 1600 yds/Sc and 14 TD from their RBs.

 

This year, they had a good 7th round pick in Isaiah Pacheco and they're on target for similar production from their RBs.  They also picked up Smith-Schuster and Valdez-Scantling who have been quality WR; SS fell off last year with the Ghost of Ben Roethlisberger throwing to him, but otherwise he catches 70% of everything thrown his way.  Valdez-Scantling is more "JAG" except for the 4.37 speed

 

That's a lot of yak, but the point is that the Chiefs invested heavily in OL, RB (E-H was a 1st) and FA WR and they have a fair bit of offense that does not run through Kelce or Mahomes.

 

That's really the critique of the Bills: do they have an OL that can support a run game outside of Josh Allen, or WR who can get open and catch the ball consistently other than Diggs?  Or are they relying on Josh Allen to create offense with his legs (leading rusher) and with his arm outside of play structure?

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

I mean, what does this even mean so Miami put their money into their offense

 

I wish the Bills would put their money into the offense.

 

Can you imagine Josh with Hill and Waddle ?

 

[thenorthremembers]

1 hour ago, Eastport bills said:

So when I use statistics I’m oversimplifying and you use statistics on catch ratio which could have stemmed from 2 or 3 drops over a few games to render him untalented. Why the negativity and the need to diminish our talent level? Because Greg Cosell said so during a blog interview. Funny, I’ve been listening to him every week on the “Herd” , and he never once mentioned a lack of talent on our offense. Maybe he had nothing fresh or noteworthy to say.  We are watching a rookie ( Cook) evolving into a contributor and Hines being integrated into our offense. One offensive explosion and you’re back on the bandwagon.

I think Gabe Davis is a fine #3 wideout, I also didnt say he was untalented.  I just think he is a substandard #2.   My reasoning for saying the yardage and touchdown statistics are overly-simplistic is due to the volume of passes the Bills throw.   I point to catch ratio because, he's played enough games in his career to show that regardless of volume he is a sub 60% guy for his career, it's not just this year, he has been under 60% every year hes been in the league

Edited December 1, 2022 by thenorthremembers

[Einstein's Dog]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He said it last January. He said "it starts with protecting Josh." For once he didn't follow through on his January proclamations.

 

After 2021 he said "It starts with protecting Josh" and his only move to upgrade the oline was to sign a geriatric guard who (in my humble opinion) has always been pretty overrated.

 

Again this isn't a hate on Brandon Beane. He is a very good GM. But I think he failed to live up to his own statement on the oline last year and I have been saying this since the spring. 

 

Beane said "it starts with protecting Josh" and he tried to keep intact the very good performing line from the end of the prior season.  They spent for Bates, brought in Saffold, and hired Kromer.  And while you may not have liked it, a lot of analysts did, much like this Fantasy Football Index article that had the Bills offensive line ranked as the 5th best heading into the season.

 

The writeup says

" 5. Buffalo Bills - A line that improved over the course of last season might be even a little better now.  Dion Dawkins and Mitch Morse return as anchors of this unit, and they'll be fine with Spencer Brown at right tackle.  It's at the guard spots where there should be some improvement.  They added Rodger Saffold, and he's been a good road-grader guard for years.  The Titans released him, but it was a cap-driven move; Saffold is 34 but has played at least 15 games six years in a row.  At right guard, they plugged in Ryan Bates late in the year and liked how he played.  The Bears tried to poach him with a four-year deal worth $17 million, buth the Bills matched the offer to keep him around."

[billsbackto81]

31 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

The defense was ranked number one last year and all anyone wanted to do was say how “misleading” it was.

Agreed, but totally different topic.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

31 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

The defense was ranked number one last year and all anyone wanted to do was say how “misleading” it was.

We’ve had a top-five offense sometimes number one or number two for three years running now. We certainly can’t use the “misleading” tag after three seasons. Or can we?

[Donuts and Doritos]

4 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Tom Brady won Super Bowls with less talent on offense.

 

Brady had better O-lines.

[John from Riverside]

1 hour ago, Pine Barrens Mafia said:

That's exactly the point. It's where the Bills should be spending while we have an all-world QB

 

The bills have a top five Offense

I would rather have balance

[DCOrange]

It's kinda funny to read through this thread after all the discussion in the offseason about how people were disrespecting our offensive weapons when placing them around #10 or slightly lower in the league. Rolling with McKenzie/Crowder as our #3 WR was a mistake, plain and simple and we seemed to take Gabe's development for granted.

[Niagara Dude]

4 hours ago, FilthyBeast said:

Interesting thoughts here on the Ross Tucker podcast from NFL insider Greg Cossell. Basically stating the obvious with JA17 being surrounded by a bad oline not much else outside of Diggs:

 

 

This is another reason why some fans like myself wanted Beane to make a meaningful move to help Josh out.  I myself stated that teams are just loading up on Diggs and daring other to beat them.  Look at all the weapons and great line Mahomes was given and Allen gets Diggs and a bunch of scrubs. I really they sign OBJ and don't care what low football IQ think.  Those are the guys crying and blaming Allen where they lose in the playoffs.  This group is the worse offensive group in the past 3-4 seasons.  There is no one player who can take over if Diggs gets doubled and tripled teamed,  

 

Just glad Greg called it,  they really need to bring in OBJ and never mind with John Brown who could not make it with 3 other teams since leaving Buffalo