Injuries NOT an excuse. Bills tied for 5th fewest man games lost to injury thru Week 11

[SCBills]

5 minutes ago, Beast said:

Terrible thread.

It’s worth noting,  but doesn’t take into account the caliber of player and the fact our injuries have all been cluster types decimating position groups. 
 

Likely also doesn’t take into account a guy like Tre White just coming back now. 
 

Also, the team were chasing (KC) has 20 less games missed due to injury by starter.  Looking at our losses, give us those 20, and that likely equates to 1 of the 3 losses turned to a W.  

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, SCBills said:

It’s worth noting,  but doesn’t take into account the caliber of player and the fact our injuries have all been cluster types decimating position groups. 
 

Likely also doesn’t take into account a guy like Tre White just coming back now. 
 

Also, the team were chasing (KC) has 20 less games missed due to injury by starter.  Looking at our losses, give us those 20, and that likely equates to 1 of the 3 losses turned to a W.  

Just the whole “no excuse” thing pisses me off.

Edited November 25, 2022 by Beast

[Cray51]

Allen is injured, clearly missing throws because of his injury, but plays each week because he is a dawg.  That’s not shown in the data.

 

Poyer is playing each week with a bum arm, because he is a dawg.  Missing 2-3 games this season instead of 6-8 like he should.

 

 

Davis has dealt with Ankle issues this season, but is toughing it out because he is a dawg

 

edmunds has been dealing with stuff.  Milano has been dealing with stuff.  Phillips, Oliver Rousseau etc

 

If guys sat each time they were hurt, we would be closer to 110 games honestly.  But guys know we need wins, so they are playing hurt to try to push results

[Sestak4ever]

Has more to do with who is injured, not how many.

[WideNine]

3 hours ago, transient said:

How did injuries result in healthy players forgetting how to tackle?

 

Healthy rookies and backups playing just slightly out of position, late diagnosing plays and arriving late....

 

It happens more often when playing more backups and rookies than seasoned starters and why McD prefers a good ratio of veteran players.

 

Some is just players trying to do more than their 1/11th and some is poor fundamentals.

 

Still trying to wrap my mind around Frazier playing our smaller DTs in the middle near the goal line against clear Detroit run packages instead of Phillips and Jones.

 

I like Oliver and Settle as penetrating DTs on passing situations and they both had strong games, but we have some wide bodies that I think would have worked better down there.

 

We kept bleeding yards up the middle. Frazier's matchup decisions just baffle me some times.

 

 

Edited November 25, 2022 by WideNine

[klos63]

6 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Bills tied for 5th fewest man games lost to injury with only 83.

 

 

 

The difference? Many of them have been to key players unlike the last several years.

 

 

So the excuses the Bills are somehow more injured than every other team needs to stop. They are STILL one of the least injured teams in the NFL even with what seems like a crazy rash of injuries...we just don't see all the players out for other teams because we don't follow them very closely.

 

Injuries to non key players/starters would help as well.

So what this tells me is that except for Miami, every other team with more injuries than the Bills has a worse record than us. Maybe it is the injuries after all.

And to add to that , injuries, maybe 'explanation' is better than 'excuse', but it's the best explanation for teams underperforming or struggling in areas. If a team is missing it's starting pro bowl safeties and all pro CB, plus 1st round pick also being a qb, it makes sense that a team would struggle in that area, because of injuries.

Injuries probably have more impact on games than anything else.

 

[Captain Caveman]

The premise of this thread is ridiculous for the following reasons - 

 

• As others have pointed out, you don't really need to make excuses for 8-3
• The size of the bubble (indicating quality of player missing games) is a lot more important than just the number of games lost - losing Hyde and White for half the season or more is a lot different than losing, and in terms of teams in competition, the Bills have one of the biggest bubbles
• The graph doesn't give any indication of players who are playing through injury (and therefore playing at a lower level than expected.)  Gabe Davis, Tremaine Edmunds, Jordan Poyer, Ed Oliver, Mitch Morse, and don't forget Josh Allen (just a few.) And again, yes, lots of players play through injuries, but it's clear to anyone watching that we seem to be a bit snakebitten this year in terms of the quality of players who are not at their best due to injury.

 

Look at the actual scenarios and games we have lost, and it is clear that multiple injuries and missing key players (and depth players behind them) have been key in at least 2 of the 3 losses.  Yes, every team loses players, not many can say they have lost as many pro bowl level players as we have and are still in competition for the #1 seed.

Edited November 26, 2022 by Captain Caveman

[MJS]

Now post it with injuries to starters. Nobody cares about a 7th round rookie getting injured.

[PonyBoy]

 

When you have a true franchise QB, with a bunch of injuries you will still be good.

With minimal injuries your team will be great. Let's just get healthier, get to the playoffs & let's roll.

[boater]

This LAMP/Troll has 5 pages at this point. She wins.

[Scott7975]

Yeah I'm not buying this chart.  For all I know the person writing the "quality" could have the Jets losing Breece Hall having the same effect as us losing Hines.  Even if I were to believe it our bubble size would indicate injuries kind of are an "excuse."

Edited November 26, 2022 by Scott7975

[PonyBoy]

6 hours ago, Ta111 said:

It’s some weird masochist complex. We should be extremely proud of what this team has accomplished. It’s basically unheard of for a team to have to travel back to the same stadium within 5 days and win both.

Not to mention it was in Detroit 1st time where they played Cleveland.

Close trip for their Dog Pound fans to get to. 

 

LA, Seattle, Arizona, Far West teams etc... aren't making that trip. Crowd noise from Browns fans played into "home" game for Bills.

[hondo in seattle]

7 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Bills tied for 5th fewest man games lost to injury with only 83.

 

 

 

The difference? Many of them have been to key players unlike the last several years.

 

 

So the excuses the Bills are somehow more injured than every other team needs to stop. They are STILL one of the least injured teams in the NFL even with what seems like a crazy rash of injuries...we just don't see all the players out for other teams because we don't follow them very closely.

 

Injuries to non key players/starters would help as well.

 

Total games missed by players is a pretty meaningless way to look at injuries.  If your mediocre guard is injured and replaced by another mediocre guard, it's not a big deal.  We've been missing guys like Poyer, Hyde, Milano, and White whose replacements aren't nearly as talented.   Our backups haven't played horribly all around but they have come up short in critical moments and cost us games.  

Josh hasn't missed any games yet - so is not part of the fancy chart - but his injury has clearly hurt the team.

 

 

 

[BearNorth]

Out of 11 games played, our defensive starters have missed 35 games [Tre - 10, Hyde - 9, Poyer - 4, Oliver - 3, Edmunds - 3, Rousseau - 3, Elam - 2, Cookie -1] average of 3.2 per week - only Tre was out week 1. That's 29% of your starters out every week.

 

Edited November 26, 2022 by BearNorth

[John from Riverside]

It’s not so much the amount of players it’s who the players are that are making the difference. We are missing stars on our team.

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

As some have indicated before, it is not the number of injuries that a team experiences that tells the story.  It is who the injured players are that is relevant.  Losing a bunch of guys on special teams doesn't hurt a team as much as missing guys like Hyde, Poyer, Edmunds, Milano, and White.  

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Then there's this

 

https://twitter.com/PFF_BenBrown/status/1596890267017433088?t=8GBiAgPsUFSDaTW3Jf2b2g&s=19

[pennstate10]

On 11/25/2022 at 12:52 PM, Big Turk said:

 

It's in the tweet with the bubble size. Bills have had bad luck in that regard.

Here is what that bubble chart shows. 
Of all the leading teams. KC, phi, nyc, Mia, dal, etc, Bills have the biggest bubble. Which according to the tweeter, means most injuries involving the best players. 
 

sorta what 90% of this board has been saying without the Byzantine graphics. 

[Billzgobowlin]

I'm curious to see that stats on the defensive side of the ball.  Offense hasn't been nearly as bad as defense in that regard.  Also curious if they include Tre White in that state?

[GunnerBill]

The table with the bubbles is more instructive than the pure stats because it factors in the quality of the guys who have missed time and that shows that other than Baltimore none of the teams with 7 or more wins have been anything like as impacted by injuries as the Bills. The injuries and the impact of them is an "excuse" as to why the Bills are currently 8-3 and toughing out tight games rather than 10-1 and freewheeling towards the #1 seed. It says a lot for our coaching that we are 8-3 in that scenario that same as it says a lot for John Harbaugh that he always seems to keep the Ravens in the fight despite consecutive years of injury hell. 

 

12 hours ago, pennstate10 said:

Here is what that bubble chart shows. 
Of all the leading teams. KC, phi, nyc, Mia, dal, etc, Bills have the biggest bubble. Which according to the tweeter, means most injuries involving the best players. 
 

sorta what 90% of this board has been saying without the Byzantine graphics. 

 

Any only the Ravens "bubble" is even close. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Royale with Cheese]

Injuries are an excuse like it was for Baltimore last year.  Saying injuries aren't an excuse is basically saying the back ups are equally as effective as the starters.

 

A regular rate of injuries to starters, if you're a good team, shouldn't faze you too much.  But when you have this:

- Von Miller (Indefinitely)

- Jordan Poyer (4 games)

- Micah Hyde (15 games)

- Tre White (10 games)

- Kair Elam (2 games)

- Christian Benford (3 games + additional 4 games for IR)

- Jordan Phillips (3 games)

- Tim Settle (2 games)

- Ed Oliver (4 games)

- Greg Rosseau  (3 games)

- Tremaine Edmunds (3 games)

- Matt Milano (1 game)

 

Everyone of these players except Milano missed multiple games or will miss multiple games.  That's 4 All Pro's on defense that we have missed multiple games at the same time.  That's many key contributing starters who aren't All Pro's. 

Not only that, but the back ups have gotten hurt and we've had to use 3rd and 4th stringers.

We have had every single starter injured except Taron Johnson and DaQuan.  That's unreal.

 

If the Cowboys were missing Parsons, Diggs, Lawrence, Kearse, Vander Esch, Anthony Brown and Armstrong all around the same time and for multiple games...would they be as good?  

Edited November 28, 2022 by Royale with Cheese

[BillyBilliams]

You can't discount the quality of players injured.  The Bills aren't losing "unimportant" players.  Every All-Pro besides Diggs has missed a game or are dealing with an injury affecting their performance.  It's not like they're missing special team players.  These positions are literally the most important positions in football....LT, CB, FS, SS, DE.  These matter

[Alphadawg7]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Injuries are an excuse like it was for Baltimore last year.  Saying injuries aren't an excuse is basically saying the back ups are equally as effective as the starters.

 

A regular rate of injuries to starters, if you're a good team, shouldn't faze you too much.  But when you have this:

- Von Miller (Indefinitely)

- Jordan Poyer (4 games)

- Micah Hyde (15 games)

- Tre White (10 games)

- Kair Elam (2 games)

- Christian Benford (3 games + additional 4 games for IR)

- Jordan Phillips (3 games)

- Tim Settle (2 games)

- Ed Oliver (4 games)

- Greg Rosseau  (3 games)

- Tremaine Edmunds (3 games)

- Matt Milano (1 game)

 

Everyone of these players except Milano missed multiple games or will miss multiple games.  That's 4 All Pro's on defense that we have missed multiple games at the same time.  That's many key contributing starters who aren't All Pro's. 

Not only that, but the back ups have gotten hurt and we've had to use 3rd and 4th stringers.

We have had every single starter injured except Taron Johnson.  That's unreal.

 

If the Cowboys were missing Parsons, Diggs, Lawrence, Kearse, Vander Esch, Anthony Brown and Armstrong all around the same time and for multiple games...would they be as good?  

Bingo.  What’s crazy to me is how obvious this is and yet people unrealistically arguing against it.  

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Yea… they’ve made huge investments defensively and as you mentioned those defensive pieces have been banged up all year… couple that with an offense that’s has had it’s share of problems due to lack luster personnel upfront and out wide and Allen struggling with TOs and this is what you get…. They are gutting out some wins, but if they want any shot in the playoffs they need to get everyone healthy defensively. 
 

Good news is it looks like Rousseau and Edmunds will be back this week, more snaps for Tre and a healthier Elam(although he’s had his struggles too).

 

I am 100% on a firm stance with #2 WR being our main priority in the offseason.

Gabe Davis is a #3 at best.  He's a guy you want to make the big play down the field but not to rely on consistently throughout a game.

 

[Logic]

1. As others have pointed out in this thread, not all injuries are created equal. The Bills have lost key players, star players, etc, which count the same as an injured third string linebacker in this data.

2. As others have pointed out in this thread, the Bills are 8-3. "Excuses" for what, exactly? Being tied for the division lead and one game out of the AFC 1-seed?

This post has big "Big Turk Energy".

[Stank_Nasty]

52 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Injuries are an excuse like it was for Baltimore last year.  Saying injuries aren't an excuse is basically saying the back ups are equally as effective as the starters.

 

A regular rate of injuries to starters, if you're a good team, shouldn't faze you too much.  But when you have this:

- Von Miller (Indefinitely)

- Jordan Poyer (4 games)

- Micah Hyde (15 games)

- Tre White (10 games)

- Kair Elam (2 games)

- Christian Benford (3 games + additional 4 games for IR)

- Jordan Phillips (3 games)

- Tim Settle (2 games)

- Ed Oliver (4 games)

- Greg Rosseau  (3 games)

- Tremaine Edmunds (3 games)

- Matt Milano (1 game)

 

Everyone of these players except Milano missed multiple games or will miss multiple games.  That's 4 All Pro's on defense that we have missed multiple games at the same time.  That's many key contributing starters who aren't All Pro's. 

Not only that, but the back ups have gotten hurt and we've had to use 3rd and 4th stringers.

We have had every single starter injured except Taron Johnson and DaQuan.  That's unreal.

 

If the Cowboys were missing Parsons, Diggs, Lawrence, Kearse, Vander Esch, Anthony Brown and Armstrong all around the same time and for multiple games...would they be as good?  

Thank you.... the troubling thing is, you had to waste your time typing this all out because people are having a really hard time grasping the difference between cumulative injuries vs quality of players injured.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

Thank you.... the troubling thing is, you had to waste your time typing this all out because people are having a really hard time grasping the difference between cumulative injuries vs quality of players injured.

 

We have 3 players on our secondary that have either made All Pro or 2nd Team All Pro.  All of them have missed significant time.

Poyer is the only one that has really played this year and he's missed 4 games himself.  That's 75% of one unit, your strongest unit depleted.

 

Would the Legion of Boom be great if Sherman, Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas missed most of the year?

[DapperCam]

Can you imagine the Miami game if we weren’t missing so many starters in the secondary? We had someone named Ingram I’ve never heard of before playing boundary corner against Tyreek Hill and Waddle, lol!

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I am 100% on a firm stance with #2 WR being our main priority in the offseason.

Gabe Davis is a #3 at best.  He's a guy you want to make the big play down the field but not to rely on consistently throughout a game.

 

 

I can't at this moment in time see an argument for our first-round pick not being a WR UNLESS it is a Left Tackle. Dawkins has been okay, but not his best and I still say as he approaches his 30s the natural position for him is left guard. If they get a chance to draft a franchise left tackle they should consider it. The thing is those guys go early and you have a much better chance of drafting a guy who can be a #1 receiver (even if initially the #2 to Diggs) at the end of round 1. 

Edited November 28, 2022 by GunnerBill

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

Can you imagine the Miami game if we weren’t missing so many starters in the secondary? We had someone named Ingram I’ve never heard of before playing boundary corner against Tyreek Hill and Waddle, lol!

 

In the second half after Benford got injured....Cam Lewis and Ja'Marcus Ingram were our starting CB's.

Not to mention Hamlin and Johnson were our starting Safety's.  

This secondary went up against one of the best WR tandem in the league.

[Stank_Nasty]

6 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We have 3 players on our secondary that have either made All Pro or 2nd Team All Pro.  All of them have missed significant time.

Poyer is the only one that has really played this year and he's missed 4 games himself.  That's 75% of one unit, your strongest unit depleted.

 

Would the Legion of Boom be great if Sherman, Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas missed most of the year?

ya man. i'm with you. these arent just role players going down. Its been players directly responsible for the winning thats been done the last 3 years. We're talking about MULTIPLE all pro players. its huge, man.

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I can't at this moment in time see an argument for our first-round pick not being a WR UNLESS it is a Left Tackle. Dawkins has been okay, but not his best and I still say as he approaches his 30s the natural position for him is left guard. If they get a chance to draft a franchise left tackle they should consider it. The thing is those guys go early and you have a much better chance of drafting a guy who can be a #1 receiver (even if initially the #2 to Diggs) at the end of round 1. 

 

I think LT could be something they look at closer to Dawkins reaching his upper 20's.

[Stank_Nasty]

1 minute ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

In the second half after Benford got injured....Cam Lewis and Ja'Marcus Ingram were our starting CB's.

Not to mention Hamlin and Johnson were our starting Safety's.  

This secondary went up against one of the best WR tandem in the league.

Defense played admirably that day. i think maybe that early in the season, frazier and mcdermott still had a scheming upperhand. But now The warts are on plenty of tape for everyone to see and we havnt had the talent out there to cover it up.

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Injuries are an excuse like it was for Baltimore last year.  Saying injuries aren't an excuse is basically saying the back ups are equally as effective as the starters.

 

A regular rate of injuries to starters, if you're a good team, shouldn't faze you too much.  But when you have this:

- Von Miller (Indefinitely)

- Jordan Poyer (4 games)

- Micah Hyde (15 games)

- Tre White (10 games)

- Kair Elam (2 games)

- Christian Benford (3 games + additional 4 games for IR)

- Jordan Phillips (3 games)

- Tim Settle (2 games)

- Ed Oliver (4 games)

- Greg Rosseau  (3 games)

- Tremaine Edmunds (3 games)

- Matt Milano (1 game)

 

Everyone of these players except Milano missed multiple games or will miss multiple games.  That's 4 All Pro's on defense that we have missed multiple games at the same time.  That's many key contributing starters who aren't All Pro's. 

Not only that, but the back ups have gotten hurt and we've had to use 3rd and 4th stringers.

We have had every single starter injured except Taron Johnson and DaQuan.  That's unreal.

 

If the Cowboys were missing Parsons, Diggs, Lawrence, Kearse, Vander Esch, Anthony Brown and Armstrong all around the same time and for multiple games...would they be as good?  

Dane Jackson wants to know why he was left off this list 😅 He missed the Dolphins game with the neck injury.

[FilthyBeast]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

Injuries are an excuse like it was for Baltimore last year.  Saying injuries aren't an excuse is basically saying the back ups are equally as effective as the starters.

 

A regular rate of injuries to starters, if you're a good team, shouldn't faze you too much.  But when you have this:

- Von Miller (Indefinitely)

- Jordan Poyer (4 games)

- Micah Hyde (15 games)

- Tre White (10 games)

- Kair Elam (2 games)

- Christian Benford (3 games + additional 4 games for IR)

- Jordan Phillips (3 games)

- Tim Settle (2 games)

- Ed Oliver (4 games)

- Greg Rosseau  (3 games)

- Tremaine Edmunds (3 games)

- Matt Milano (1 game)

 

Everyone of these players except Milano missed multiple games or will miss multiple games.  That's 4 All Pro's on defense that we have missed multiple games at the same time.  That's many key contributing starters who aren't All Pro's. 

Not only that, but the back ups have gotten hurt and we've had to use 3rd and 4th stringers.

We have had every single starter injured except Taron Johnson and DaQuan.  That's unreal.

 

If the Cowboys were missing Parsons, Diggs, Lawrence, Kearse, Vander Esch, Anthony Brown and Armstrong all around the same time and for multiple games...would they be as good?  

 

The Ravens last year and 49ers in 2020 were teams that were decimated with season ending injuries to key players so that's a bit different IMO.

 

But looking at the Bills, sure we've have some key injuries to important players but so far the only one of note lost for an extensive period of time was Hyde in week 2. If Miller is gone for the year that would certainly be another major blow.

 

Also the Cowboys have missed some of those players in question this year and have been just fine also sitting at 8-3. The Bengals are another team that has been hit hard with injuries since the beginning of the year and are 7-2 after and 0-2 start.

 

At the end of the day every team is effected differently but I stand with the original premise of this thread that if the Bills fail to live up to expectations (which is anything short of of a SB appearance) injuries won't be a valid excuse unless a bunch of other key guys land on season ending IR the coming weeks.

[Mikey152]

Am I the only one that can read the graph?

 

The Bills circle on the graph is significantly larger than the other teams around them in A) the standings and B) number of games missed. The fact that their circle is the same size as teams with significantly more injuries says exactly what everyone is saying...quality, not quantity, is the issue.

[Donuts and Doritos]

This looked interesting. No idea what their standard is for this ranking. But they've got us about middle. (This is from before our last game loosing Von).

 

 

[Gugny]

They're 8-3.  Are we making excuses for them winning?

[NewEra]

43 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

We have 3 players on our secondary that have either made All Pro or 2nd Team All Pro.  All of them have missed significant time.

Poyer is the only one that has really played this year and he's missed 4 games himself.  That's 75% of one unit, your strongest unit depleted.

 

Would the Legion of Boom be great if Sherman, Kam Chancellor and Earl Thomas missed most of the year?

Poyer missed the Miami L and Jets L and Vikings L.  
 

In 2 of the losses (Miami and Minny), his replacement was torched for a game changing play that he likely would’ve prevented.  

Milano missing the jets game broke our defense.  Bernard got destroyed.  
 

the quality of players missed = everything 

 

I’d venture to say that if Milano and Poyer hadn’t missed any games, we’d be undefeated.

 

that said…..our offense needs to fix itself or we won’t win the SB

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Probably already been asked in this thread but anyone know if this is starters only?

 

The quality of player loss definitely matters.