How valuable is Hyde really?

[Jauronimo]

32 minutes ago, Einstein said:

 

“Any fool can know, the point is to understand” - Albert Einstein

 

The single worst part of sport discussion forums is groupthink.

 

On this forum, groupthink coincides with an attack on anyone that gives even the slightest criticism of a current starter, coach, owner, or anyone affiliated with the team.

 

There is no room for understanding, predicting, analyzing and speaking truth to potentials departures. All room is taken up by the “knowing” crowd - those that “know” that another poster is wrong, should post less, etc. Your post above, in a nutshell.

 

Prior to the onslaught of “knowers” bashing my thread, several people had agreed with it. One deleted their post (they were one of the first responses), and another edited their post to say something different. This is because they don’t want to go against the crowd. Groupthink.

 

.

This board fights all day about pretty much every topic.  The only "group think" is the universal disdain for your threads.

[John from Riverside]

We are very fortunate to be deep on this team Hamlin is a good player

[K-9]

1 hour ago, Nephilim17 said:

I never said we never had a good defense without a dominant line in recent years. But I do believe our defense in 2022 is the best it's ever been with McDermott.. And I'm not talking stats but the ability to beat great teams.

I said IF capital is limited, I would rather have one veteran (high-priced) safety and one veteran outside corner (high priced) and put the money into the D line than the having a secondary of high priced vets and not a lot of spending on the D line.

Do you really believe that's an unreasonable view? 

You miss the intent of my post which was to simply point out that if we can attribute the success of our younger secondary to a dominant front four, then we should also realize that we have had top rated pass defenses without a dominant D line in the past. Hyde, Poyer, Tre, etc. have all made past D lines look good because of their superior play in the secondary. 
 

Nothing unreasonable in considering the future costs associated with retaining players and I agree it’s an important consideration moving forward. 

[LABILLBACKER]

I'm sorry but that INT last January against NE was absolutely sick. I want both him and Poyer on this roster at least a couple more years.

[ColoradoBills]

30 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

This board fights all day about pretty much every topic.  The only "group think" is the universal disdain for your threads.

 

Personally, I'm done with this fool.  LOL, and I mean that I "laughed out loud" with this guy quoting Albert Einstein like he is

teaching me something.  

[Chandler#81]

4 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

What game changing plays in critical moments has Hyde made?

 

NE interception in playoffs? How many others?

Obviously, you don’t even follow the Bills or you’d know what a witless comment this is. Onside KO return TD vs Miami to clinch win, Pick 6 @ KC to clinch the win there last season, endzone pick @ GB, Sacked Tua @ Miami, pick vs Wash, Redzone fumble recovery @ Mia, strip fumble recovery @ NYJ, Endzone pick to secure win @ Pats*, batted down Hail Mary to preserve Playoff win vs Indy,  jaw-dropping Endzone pick vs Pats* in Playoffs, Cagey, long PR vs Pats*.  If you even watched NFL hi-lights the past few years, you’d have known better than to even write this, ‘Einstein’..🤦‍♂️ While I’m at it, I know it’s Halloween and folks pretend to be other people, but what’s with the yearlong ruse on your screen name? Oh! I get it! Play on words. You’re really Doc Brown’s dog from Back to the Future! Clever, troll.

[Doc Brown]

I really missed him in the Miami game where they converted that 3rd and 22.  That doesn't happen with Hyde on the field.

[SECRET SQUIRREL]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I see from your profile that you are in Tampa.

 

I have a vacation home in St Pete. I go to the Bills Bar called Buffalo Charlie’s in Dunedin.

 

Feel free to join me some week for a game. Warning, you’ll probably be confused by my Bills tattoo while simultaneously trying to rationalize that i’m a fan of another team.

 

Ps, here is me at the Titans game watching Allen throw a bomb to Diggs. Posted from my Bills twitter account where the goal is to give away free Bills tickets to kids and people who can’t afford to go. It’s all part of my Jets/Fins/Pats fan scheme. Obviously.

 

.

 

 

.

If indeed true, that's pretty cool of you for doing something nice like that for people less fortunate, props.... that said, why the hell are you such a scat starter on here all of the time? You know that it annoys the hell out of the majority of us but continue to do it,  why?

[Malazan]

7 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Wait, you want to trade a guy missing the rest of the season due to neck surgery? That should go well. 

 

Einstein, indeed. 

[Rochesterfan]

5 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Einstein, why do you keep starting these troll threads?  Hyde is one of the leaders of this defense.  Enough of you.  I’d be much more forward with my comments if the mods would allow it.  You’re not a Bills fan.  

 

MGK - totally agree - I have started several responses and just deleted them - wish the Mods would cut this one loose or at least ban him from starting threads.  
 

What a waste of space.

 

 

[teef]

5 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

“Any fool can know, the point is to understand” - Albert Einstein

 

The single worst part of sport discussion forums is groupthink.

 

On this forum, groupthink coincides with an attack on anyone that gives even the slightest criticism of a current starter, coach, owner, or anyone affiliated with the team.

 

There is no room for understanding, predicting, analyzing and speaking truth to potentials departures. All room is taken up by the “knowing” crowd - those that “know” that another poster is wrong, should post less, etc. Your post above, in a nutshell.

 

Prior to the onslaught of “knowers” bashing my thread, several people had agreed with it. One deleted their post (they were one of the first responses), and another edited their post to say something different. This is because they don’t want to go against the crowd. Groupthink.

 

.

Maybe…just maybe, it’s not everyone else. 
Maybe it’s just you. 
 

 

 

 

 

 

It’s just you. 

[ProcessTruster]

7 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

This is a good point. It is becoming clearer to me that the scheme we run here may have contributed to the success of our safeties (and corners.). 
 

hyde and Poyer are great, and they are always around the ball And are very opportunistic.  But you have to remember that both these guys were late draft picks and mostly backups until they got here. 
 

 

Yeah it seems the back 4 really work as a group, not as individuals.. kind of a plug and play scheme, with very little man to man coverage skills required, so a guy like Levi Wallace, who is getting absolutely torched playing man coverage for Pittsburgh, could be a productive contributor due to his length and tackling skills in a zone scheme.  

IMO, Beane will make Poyer a fair offer and someone else will overpay and that will be that, IMO.  His insane diva wife will make him take the $$ . 

[Ya Digg?]

39 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Yeah it seems the back 4 really work as a group, not as individuals.. kind of a plug and play scheme, with very little man to man coverage skills required, so a guy like Levi Wallace, who is getting absolutely torched playing man coverage for Pittsburgh, could be a productive contributor due to his length and tackling skills in a zone scheme.  

IMO, Beane will make Poyer a fair offer and someone else will overpay and that will be that, IMO.  His insane diva wife will make him take the $$ . 

Yeah you gotta hate it when the wife wants the husband to make money in the business he is in 🙄

if only she would come out and say she just wants him to be paid fairly…oh wait, she has 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Is trading a player on IR even allowed? I’m not aware of any player on IR ever being traded. Does anyone know of such a case? 

[VaMilBill]

9 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 So, so far this month I have learned we don't need Hyde or White. Learning alot this October.😂

 

 

I disagree with this. Hyde offers amazing ball skills.

 

Maybe the coverage has been adequate from our backup safeties, but the natural ball hawk skills have not. I.e. we are not getting big plays out of our safeties other than Poyer. 

 

notice when Poyer and Hyde were out how much our safeties struggled against Miami. Don’t think that would happen. Hyde makes plays constantly. 
 

On top of all that, I miss him as a punt returner in bad weather conditions. He is so smooth and reliable to receive a punt. 

Edited October 26, 2022 by VaMilBill

[Sierra Foothills]

How valuable is he really?

 

"Archaeologists believe that hides provided an important source of clothing and shelter for all prehistoric humans and their use continued among non-agricultural societies into modern times."

 

I'd say that's pretty damned important. He  probably works in conjunction with the equipment manager.

 

16 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Is trading a player on IR even allowed? I’m not aware of any player on IR ever being traded. Does anyone know of such a case? 

 

All trades are subject to the player(s) passing a physical so while I don't recall a specific instance I'm pretty sure it's happened and if it hasn't, it could based on the contingencies.

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by Sierra Foothills

[eball]

Oh, @Einstein…

 

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

Let's see...would we rather have our 2nd team All Pro safety next year or a 6th round pick?  Good job asking the tough questions OP.

 

Edit:  I've just read your reply about group think fan bias.  That definitely happens but this isn't it.  I guarantee you that every member of the Bills organization would find this thread as laughable as we do, and it's their job to go over every roster scenario.

Edited October 26, 2022 by SageAgainstTheMachine

[Simon Says]

Hyde has zero trade value until he proves he can return next year. And at his cap hit,little value at that age, anyway.

[Draconator]

I better go to urgent care, and get a mental heat warming test, because I can't believe I'm going to say this.

 

I'm giving @Einstein the benefit of the doubt.  

 

I don't think he's saying definitely get rid of Hyde. He's thinking out loud if maybe we are just as good without him and raising the possibility of moving on from him next year. 

 

Personally, we are just as good without Micah, but we would be giving close to 10 points per game (as opposed to the 16 points per game) with him in the lineup.  
 

He's a keeper. 

 

It is 8:00 am Eastern Daylight Time. after this post Ima headed for a beer.

[Simon Says]

9 hours ago, The Wiz said:

Hyde is already under contract for next season.  Poyer isn't.

Exactly  so if it becomes just about saving cap space...I think we are seeing that the Bills might be able to survive without Hyde or Poyer, but not ready to move on from BOTH unless they draft a safety.

[freddyjj]

6 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'm sorry but that INT last January against NE was absolutely sick. I want both him and Poyer on this roster at least a couple more years.

While I agree with you, the capology may cause McBeane to break up the band.   Personally I don't see Poyer re-signing here so looks like Hyde (if healthy) and Hamlin next year.

[ganesh]

9 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I asked if anyone thought it was possible, yes.

 

I have no doubt he will play next year for someone.

This is how the team is going to manage its cap in 2023 especially if they are going to re-sign Edmunds and possibly Davis and then draft 5 OL in the draft. 

[Fide Deo]

I cannot understand why thread comments so often personally attack and are rude to OPs. It is contrary to the kind and generous reputation that Bills fans have around the league.

 

For a bye week, I thought this was a well-reasoned post. The OP acknowledges that we are a better team WITH Hyde. The question is how much more so, and if the value is there to keep him. Nobody disputes his past contributions on the field, nor the incredible leadership and presence he has brought to the team. However, the defense has been playing excellent ball without him.

 

Further, this team has difficult decisions to make going forward. The cap eventually becomes real, especially considering Allen's new deal, and we have a lot of talented players. I would choose Poyer over Hyde in a second, but I'm not sure $4m in cap savings (if that's what it is) is worth losing Hyde next year. Especially considering the need for depth. After that, I think Hyde is gone.

 

As others have pointed out, I also think the coaching and scheme allows our secondary to outperform, which suggests that perhaps our $$$ can remain elsewhere on defense. Pay Groot and Oliver when the time comes; hell even Edmunds is finally making me a believer this year.

 

It bears watching this season to see how much of a drop off there is on defense, if any, as a result of Hyde's absence.

[nucci]

very. It'll be noticeable in playoffs like last year without White

[Sherlock Holmes]

10 hours ago, Augie said:

 

Wait, you want to trade a guy missing the rest of the season due to neck surgery? That should go well. 

Why do you think they call him Einstein Augie?!

[Thurman#1]

 

 

8 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

How much of that which he has done could not be done by a cheaper model?

 

 

An awful lot.

 

That is the answer, whether or not you want to hear it. A great deal.

 

If you instead have someone at replacement value, you won't notice a massive lack, because the guy will be doing what needs to be done. The stuff you will never see because it doesn't happen can't be seen. But it is missed.

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Bingo.

 

 

Yes - 26.5 year old Hyde was targeted as a foundational guy by McDermott half a decade ago.

 

Not soon-to-be 32 year old Hyde, half a decade later.

 

 

Wrong, which is habitual for you.

 

They targeted him five years ago by bringing him in. Then they again targeted him before the 2021 season by giving him a big new contract extension through 2023.

 

At age 30, they made it very clear that they wanted him through 2023 in the most obvious and public way, by giving him a contract that even in the last year, 2023, would have cost $7M in dead cap money to get rid of him.

 

You ignore this because it doesn't suit your dumb argument. But it's obvious as the headlight of an oncoming train in a dark tunnel to anyone looking to see what is rather than to advance a pathetic pre-conception.

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

10 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 So, so far this month I have learned we don't need Hyde or White. Learning alot this October.😂

 

 

Wait, I thought the plan was to trade Hyde and move White to safety? 

 

To answer the OP (and many of the 'Can we trade so and so for a draft pick' type threads):

 

One reason the Bills are so successful is that the do not treat players like disposable items. They take care of their own. Trading Hyde coming off an injury sends a horrible message to the guys on the roster. Yes, it is a business and yes, everyone is eventually replaceable. However, Hyde has been a large reason for the turnaround in Buffalo both on the field and in the locker room. These guys have more value than what you see on Sunday. Even out injured Hyde has remained a visible leader on this defense. 

 

Throwing out that the system makes him (and Poyer for that matter) look better than they are is such a weak stance. We could also by that reasoning say that "the system" makes Gabe Davis look better...or Diggs look better. We should just go cheaper there too, right? "The system" makes Matt Milano look better than he is too. Maybe we should trade him. If the systems are so great why ever resign anyone again? Truth is no matter how great a system is, the players make the system. Have to have the right people to plug in and operate it.  

[What a Tuel]

10 hours ago, Warcodered said:

I don't know I like having him around.

 

 

 

What a magnificent play. Its so depressing that Hyde is out for this run this year.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

34 minutes ago, Fide Deo said:

I cannot understand why thread comments so often personally attack and are rude to OPs. It is contrary to the kind and generous reputation that Bills fans have around the league.

 

For a bye week, I thought this was a well-reasoned post. The OP acknowledges that we are a better team WITH Hyde. The question is how much more so, and if the value is there to keep him. Nobody disputes his past contributions on the field, nor the incredible leadership and presence he has brought to the team. However, the defense has been playing excellent ball without him.

 

Further, this team has difficult decisions to make going forward. The cap eventually becomes real, especially considering Allen's new deal, and we have a lot of talented players. I would choose Poyer over Hyde in a second, but I'm not sure $4m in cap savings (if that's what it is) is worth losing Hyde next year. Especially considering the need for depth. After that, I think Hyde is gone.

 

As others have pointed out, I also think the coaching and scheme allows our secondary to outperform, which suggests that perhaps our $$$ can remain elsewhere on defense. Pay Groot and Oliver when the time comes; hell even Edmunds is finally making me a believer this year.

 

It bears watching this season to see how much of a drop off there is on defense, if any, as a result of Hyde's absence.

Good post.  

Teams cut aging injured good players for cap reasons all the time.  Tough decisions are coming up.  I don't see Hyde back next year.  

Whether they would be better with him now is a different question, I think they would.  But will they be the same or better off next year without him is a good question to ask.  Nothing in practice or garbage time can come close to the real game experience Hamlin and whoever else plays some defensive snaps this year is getting.  It is real game tape that McD and Beane can use to judge whether to pay Poyer, cut Hyde, and how to approach the draft and free agency.  

[Thurman#1]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

“Any fool can know, the point is to understand” - Albert Einstein

 

The single worst part of sport discussion forums is groupthink.

 

On this forum, groupthink coincides with an attack on anyone that gives even the slightest criticism of a current starter, coach, owner, or anyone affiliated with the team.

 

There is no room for understanding, predicting, analyzing and speaking truth to potentials departures. All room is taken up by the “knowing” crowd - those that “know” that another poster is wrong, should post less, etc. Your post above, in a nutshell.

 

Prior to the onslaught of “knowers” bashing my thread, several people had agreed with it. One deleted their post (they were one of the first responses), and another edited their post to say something different. This is because they don’t want to go against the crowd. Groupthink.

 

.

 

 

Nonsense.

 

The worst part of sports discussion forums isn't groupthink. It's the sad individuals suffering from cancerous confirmation bias, dead wrong and totally incapable of understanding why, who think they're battling groupthink when they're actually just making an ass of themselves.

 

Those people you're talking about didn't change their mind because they were intimidated by groupthink. They looked at both sides, realized they'd originally been wrong, and adjusted their position.

 

This is something people who think well and productively do.

 

They noticed that your argument had virtually no merit.

[corta765]

10 hours ago, LOVEMESOMEBILLS said:

 

 So, so far this month I have learned we don't need Hyde or White. Learning alot this October.😂

 

 

 

Gonna be like survivor fans gonna just start voting guys off the roster and were gonna have just Von Miller, Oliver, and Millano :)

[What a Tuel]

7 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

You don’t remember Hill running right past Hyde with 2 minutes left in the KC game last year?

 

I may never forget that “douces” sign be put up with his two fingers as he entered the endzone.

 

I am not pointing this out in an effort to say that Hyde is a bad player. Not at all. I’m simply pointing out that defensive breakdowns against the Chiefs offense is nothing new to this Bills defense (even with Hyde).

 

I could say the same.

 

 

 

I can't believe you made me pull this up and watch it again. 

 

I also can't believe you put this play on Hyde....

 

 

Edited October 26, 2022 by What a Tuel

[Ethan in Cleveland]

10 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Wrong, which is habitual for you.

 

They targeted him five years ago by bringing him in. Then they again targeted him before the 2021 season by giving him a big new contract extension through 2023.

 

At age 30, they made it very clear that they wanted him through 2023 in the most obvious and public way, by giving him a contract that even in the last year, 2023, would have cost $7M in dead cap money to get rid of him.

 

You ignore this because it doesn't suit your dumb argument. But it's obvious as the headlight of an oncoming train in a dark tunnel to anyone looking to see what is rather than to advance a pathetic pre-conception.

 

 

You are only describing and ignoring half the facts to fit your narrative.  Cutting Hyde yes would be a $7M dead cap hit but it would still be a net $3.8M savings from his projected salary.  

[Draconator]

 

[H2o]

10 hours ago, Big Turk said:

You don't miss them...until you do. Eventually there will be a game where Hyde would have made a play Hamlin doesn't.

 

Just gotta hope it's not in the playoffs.

The Miami game

[BuffaloBillyG]

7 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

You are only describing and ignoring half the facts to fit your narrative.  Cutting Hyde yes would be a $7M dead cap hit but it would still be a net $3.8M savings from his projected salary.  

Seeing it put this way begs the question. If cutting Hyde still would cost 7 million in dead money and keeping Hyde results in only $3.8 Million dollars more...do you not think Hyde is worth that extra 3.8 million? For his leadership, experience, knowledge of the defense, how he is viewed by his teammates and how he is in the community all while (assuming he heals properly) playing at an extremely high level? 

 

Cutting or trading a team leader, a guy has earned the "C" on his chest, a guy that was still playing extremely well when he got hurt...doing that over 3.8 million of cap space is an absolutely ridiculous idea. 

[Matt_In_NH]

I thought he was pretty important when he picked off Mac Jones in the playoffs.  
 

the bills have a great roster.  They can lose a guy and still do well in many cases.  That does not mean the my don’t lose something when an all pro goes down.  After enough hits to the roster it will become evident.  We can say the same about Tre.   There is no doubt scheme/coaching helps these guys.  But they are pros and do their job well.   The bills will probably my have to  make tough roster decisions in future off seasons.  Up til now they have kept most of what they wanted to keep.  That will probably have to change.  

[Thurman#1]

41 minutes ago, Fide Deo said:

I cannot understand why thread comments so often personally attack and are rude to OPs. It is contrary to the kind and generous reputation that Bills fans have around the league.

 

For a bye week, I thought this was a well-reasoned post. The OP acknowledges that we are a better team WITH Hyde. The question is how much more so, and if the value is there to keep him. Nobody disputes his past contributions on the field, nor the incredible leadership and presence he has brought to the team. However, the defense has been playing excellent ball without him.

 

Further, this team has difficult decisions to make going forward. The cap eventually becomes real, especially considering Allen's new deal, and we have a lot of talented players. I would choose Poyer over Hyde in a second, but I'm not sure $4m in cap savings (if that's what it is) is worth losing Hyde next year. Especially considering the need for depth. After that, I think Hyde is gone.

 

As others have pointed out, I also think the coaching and scheme allows our secondary to outperform, which suggests that perhaps our $$$ can remain elsewhere on defense. Pay Groot and Oliver when the time comes; hell even Edmunds is finally making me a believer this year.

 

It bears watching this season to see how much of a drop off there is on defense, if any, as a result of Hyde's absence.

 

 

It might have been worth watching but the evidence is increasingly in.

 

Despite a much better pass rush, the Bills are allowing long passes at a higher rate.

 

Hyde's injury has been compared to that of Eric Wood. There's a chance he may not ever play again. But sour grapes thinking isn't encompassed in clear thought. Losing him hurts a lot. The guys who are replacing him are doing so at replacement value, which is a good thing, but we're losing a lot here. A lot.

 

If he can return next year, and return at the same level, the Bills will likely be thrilled and keep him.

 

1st two games, with Hyde:  10 and 7 points allowed, 191 and 107 yards passing allowed, and 5 INTs filched by the Bills

 

Next four games, without him: 21, 20, 3 and 20 points allowed, 171, 134, 310 and 319 pass yards allowed, and 5 more INTs, in twice as many games

 

Is all that down to Hyde? No, of course not. But is he surely a factor? Hell, yeah.