Two Head Injuries Within 4 Days For Tua - Does He Turn Out Like Trent Edwards?

[Dibs]

7 minutes ago, Ralonzo said:

 

Ian Rapaport on NFLN just alluded to Sunday saying Tua didn't go through concussion protocol because it was determined to be a neck injury and not a head injury. Now, that makes more sense than clearing it at halftime.

 

...

 

Geez, I think that would make it even worse. The guy goes wobbly at the knees due to a supposed neck injury and they put him back in without x-rays and scans. That would be criminal wouldn't it?

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

No idea where Tua's career goes from here. 

 

But to me Tua is two things. Injury prone and when not on the field just, meh. The guy has had one great quarter this season. Out of about 13 or 14 quarters he has played. 13 of the 14 quarters he has played this season he has looked exactly like the 2021 Tua. A Tua that simply isn't good enough and a Tua that had the entire Miami organization wanting to bring in Brady or Deshaun Watson. 

 

He has one epic quarter and he suddenly is viewed as a better QB now. Never made any sense. 

[Ralonzo]

1 minute ago, Dibs said:

 

Geez, I think that would make it even worse. The guy goes wobbly at the knees due to a supposed neck injury and they put him back in without x-rays and scans. That would be criminal wouldn't it?

 

I don't know if it ends up being criminal because so much of the world functions now around perceiving reality as how you want it to be rather than how it is. There's an ever-shrinking pool of objective truths that can be commonly agreed upon by reasonable people, apparently including whether grabbing your helmet and stumbling around is a symptom of that hit you took to the head 10 seconds prior.

[fergie's ire]

I'm not a Dr. nor do I even play one on TV.  However, I know we have some on this board who might provide some insights.  I have had concussions and I would feel horrible for a day but would pretty much recover.  I have heard others say they were in bed for a month.  Reactions vary widely, I get that.  What has me curious, though, is certain similarities between Tua's injuries that seem otherwise odd.  I realize that with the Milano "hit" which was really not even a particularly violent shove, that Tua's head whiplashed in a classic contrecoup injury scenario.  But even so, the hit to his head did not seem violent by NFL standards and with the equipment he has seemed odd that he was so wobbly.  Then, even if you accept conspiracy theories about Dr.s allowing a concussed Tua to go back in, he did seem well enough to perform well in that second half.  It wasn't like when Kelly tried to go back in and Thurman turned to the sidelines and gave the crazy symbol.  Then, he's clearly to play last night and even though his reaction to the hit was horrific, he was quickly cleared to fly home.  So, he seems easily concussed but quick to recover.  Could he have some kind of underlying issue that might trigger a concussion...but then disappear?  Almost like if you have a nerve that is easily pinched that can get pinched, causing severe symptoms but then seem to be cured quickly (though just waiting to be bumped the same way again)?

 

[Kaenon]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

That was a fencing reaction last night which is a sign of brain trauma...NFLPA head DeMaurice Smith released a statement that they will be pursuing every legal option against the NFL and doctors who allowed him back in last week's game if it is found they did not follow protocol properly.

 

Honestly, I think Tua's career is going to be a short one...set aside the head injuries, he gets hurt a lot. I believe every season so far he has been out multiple games due to some type of injury.

Would certainly be sad if he has a short career for this - Dolphins screwed up twice.

 

At some point Tua's thoughts will need to start to shift towards his post-NFL life.

 

Wish him well!

[wjag]

32 minutes ago, Ralonzo said:

 

Ian Rapaport on NFLN just alluded to Sunday saying Tua didn't go through concussion protocol because it was determined to be a neck injury and not a head injury. Now, that makes more sense than clearing it at halftime.

 

 

if this is true, then the system is broken. 

[Ralonzo]

4 minutes ago, wjag said:

if this is true, then the system is broken. 

To clarify, what Rapoport actually said was "he was removed from concussion protocol after it was determined to be a neck/back injury" Sunday. He stated this was done by both team doctors and independent neuro, who determined there was "no neurological component."

[MPL]

1 hour ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Bringing up one of the great urban myths in Biils history.  Trent Edwards best game was his first game back after the Cardinals game concussion.   He was just not that good and was not able to adjust to how defenses played him. 

100% This. 

I really think that Cleveland Monday night game where he threw something like 5 first half interceptions was what turned him into captain check down. Dude just had no confidence after that. But again, he really never was that good, and seemingly never actually liked playing football all that much. Dude always seemed like he would have much rather been at a Dodgers game. 

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

We all know last Sunday was not a back injury. He CLEARLY had a concussion, mild or whatever. Slammed his head on the ground, got up to walk, shook his head real quick trying to clear the cobwebs, then began to wobble when he walked, and teammates had to help him. Last night he has a head injury of a more gruesome variety. That one was scary. Laying there with his fingers all twisted up after being slammed to the ground by a 300+ lb man. It made me think of Trent Edwards and the Adrian Wilson hit. Trent was looking like the QB we had been waiting for until that day. That one hit changed everything. After that he was scared to death in the pocket. His career continued as a backup for a few years, but he was never the same. Tua was just starting his ascension after a couple of mediocre seasons and now this happens. He was definitely playing better. But now one has to wonder if this will change that trajectory. Will he be scared in the pocket? Will he see "ghosts" and be rattled at the first sense of pressure? Mentally, and physically, will he be able to overcome this? Sidney Crosby, different sport I know, has missed a ton of time due to head injuries and I don't believe he's been the same since that terrible concussion he had. I hope Tua returns to full health and doesn't have life altering effects from this. It still makes you wonder with how bad it looked last night on the field. 

 

 

I don't think we do know that.

 

It's a guess.

 

It certainly looked that way, but injuries aren't as easy to diagnose as we'd like to think they are. Doctors make mistakes, some injuries have similar symptoms. It's just not as clear as all that.

 

If they did somehow cheat his way through that, the team is sick. There's an unaffiliated Neurotrama consultant in the medical tent. I suppose it's possible they could get to the guy somehow but more likely is just that he didn't show the symptoms in the locker room.

 

Will he have effects? No way to know. No way to do anything but guess, really, and why do that?

 

[aristocrat]

Would Tua really put his health and safety last?  Guy has had some brutal injuries going back to college so perhaps he wants to shake the injury prone label but I don't think he would.  Guys always wanna play and the team needs to hold them back.   If he didn't want to play he could tell them he's not good. Need to hear from Tua on what happened. 

[TDO'Kearney]

I agree with the sentiment that the first injury WAS a concussion (my personal unprofessional opinion),  but does anyone not like the way 68 for Cincy slung him to the ground?  I mean, if ANYONE hit their head on the ground that hard I can't imagine them escaping brain trauma. 

 

I know football is a tough sport - and sometimes you see athletic QBs get away with plays bc the defense is trying to tackle them without a penalty, but that particular play keeps failing my eye test regarding "good" football vs. intent to injure.

Edited September 30, 2022 by TDO'Kearney

[JerseyBills]

I never believed he'd be more than mediocre.  I think his first 2 starts were a product of having 2 great WRs and a new HC, leading defenses not knowing what to expect.  I was not impressed at all watching him vs Buffalo and last night minus that bomb to Waddle. 

 

So I believe he'll still be the same, a middle of the pack, game manager QB

[BRH]

2 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Bringing up one of the great urban myths in Biils history.  Trent Edwards best game was his first game back after the Cardinals game concussion.   He was just not that good and was not able to adjust to how defenses played him. 

 

We all remember if we were there.  I was at the Chargers game after the hit (the no-power game).  Concussions can take a while to manifest their effects.  After that game he was never the same and you'll never convince me that the Wilson hit didn't play a part.

[Big Turk]

34 minutes ago, Kaenon said:

Would certainly be sad if he has a short career for this - Dolphins screwed up twice.

 

At some point Tua's thoughts will need to start to shift towards his post-NFL life.

 

Wish him well!

 

Not only from this...he is very injury prone outside of head injuries...every year he goes down for multiple games.

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Tom Brady might be the most relieved man in America this morning.  He very nearly signed with the Dolphins in the offseason.  Now, seeing how the Dolphins handle injuries to its QB he can be thankful he never went to Miami.

Tua had a concussion on Sunday, but the head coach needed him on the field, so suddenly he had a back injury.  Last night, Tua had a 2nd "back injury" but this was a lot more scary and impossible to diagnose as anything other than a head injury.  The unnatural curving of his fingers, as he lay on the field, was disturbing and as the announcer said, "was a neurological response to head trauma", quoting a trainer for the Jacksonville Jaguars.  

The NFL should throw the book at Miami.  They've already deprived them of their 1st round pick in the 2023 draft for past transgressions, but apparently in Miami they'll break the rules until they're caught.  Well, they got caught and suspensions should be in order. 

Best wishes to Tua for a speedy recovery.  But he should get a 2nd opinion instead of relying solely on the Miami team doctors.  

 

[BRH]

10 minutes ago, TDO'Kearney said:

I agree with the sentiment that the first injury WAS a concussion (my personal unprofessional opinion),  but does anyone not like the way 68 for Cincy slung him to the ground?  I mean, if ANYONE hit their head on the ground that hard I can't imagine them escaping brain trauma. 

 

I was a little surprised initially that there was no flag.  But focusing on the hit detracts from the bigger point:  he should not have been out there to begin with.

[What a Tuel]

Wait. We didn't play the dolphins this week and lose to them and there is still a thread about Tua and concussions.

 

I was under the impression such threads were only the result of us being sore losers and just wanted him to be benched so we could win.

Edited September 30, 2022 by What a Tuel

[TDO'Kearney]

1 minute ago, BRH said:

 

I was a little surprised initially that there was no flag.  But focusing on the hit detracts from the bigger point:  he should not have been out there to begin with.

Completely agree.   I think both things are true.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

24 minutes ago, MPL said:

100% This. 

I really think that Cleveland Monday night game where he threw something like 5 first half interceptions was what turned him into captain check down. Dude just had no confidence after that. But again, he really never was that good, and seemingly never actually liked playing football all that much. Dude always seemed like he would have much rather been at a Dodgers game. 

 

I'd say it was a combination.  He lost a lot of the pocket presence after that.  He either checked down or was sacked.  

[BRH]

26 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

There's an unaffiliated Neurotrama consultant in the medical tent. I suppose it's possible they could get to the guy somehow but more likely is just that he didn't show the symptoms in the locker room.

 

We need to know who the unaffiliated "consultant" is.  Does the league have a pool of consultants that they randomly fly out to each game, or (as is more likely) do the consultants come from the home team's area?  Strangely enough, a lot of doctors like football, too.  They may even have a favorite team.

Edited September 30, 2022 by BRH

[Warriorspikes51]

I bet he plays next week even though he shouldn't 

[Low Positive]

Just now, Warriorspikes51 said:

I bet he plays next week even though he shouldn't 

I would put big money on that. 

[LDD]

https://static.www.nfl.com/image/upload/v1629470683/league/ovinvbctariqolangujz.pdf

 

 

The link abo e is the NFL protocol checklist.  To me it is readily apparent that they clearly violated it.  After the first section, in the right hand column under the STOP sign is listed *Gross Motor Instability and below that is the determination (If observed at any point, NO RETURN TO PLAY).  

 

Everyone watching the Bills/Fins game witnessed Tua's "Gross Motor Instability" on the field.  

 

I hope he's OK, seems like a great competitor and teammate.  

[The Frankish Reich]

1 hour ago, Dibs said:

 

Geez, I think that would make it even worse. The guy goes wobbly at the knees due to a supposed neck injury and they put him back in without x-rays and scans. That would be criminal wouldn't it?

I agree. Correct me if I’m wrong here: as I understand it, the player is sent off to the independent neurologist by the team. The neurologist isn’t watching the game action/replays and then ordering the team to send the player off for a concussion evaluation. So if Tua says “it’s my back” and the team believes him or pretends to believe him, no concussion protocol. Obviously that needs to be tightened up. And bring back those preseason helmets. Not a fix, but If tests say the reduce impact by 20 percent, well, that’s worth it. 

[machine gun kelly]

3 hours ago, H2o said:

We all know last Sunday was not a back injury. He CLEARLY had a concussion, mild or whatever. Slammed his head on the ground, got up to walk, shook his head real quick trying to clear the cobwebs, then began to wobble when he walked, and teammates had to help him. Last night he has a head injury of a more gruesome variety. That one was scary. Laying there with his fingers all twisted up after being slammed to the ground by a 300+ lb man. It made me think of Trent Edwards and the Adrian Wilson hit. Trent was looking like the QB we had been waiting for until that day. That one hit changed everything. After that he was scared to death in the pocket. His career continued as a backup for a few years, but he was never the same. Tua was just starting his ascension after a couple of mediocre seasons and now this happens. He was definitely playing better. But now one has to wonder if this will change that trajectory. Will he be scared in the pocket? Will he see "ghosts" and be rattled at the first sense of pressure? Mentally, and physically, will he be able to overcome this? Sidney Crosby, different sport I know, has missed a ton of time due to head injuries and I don't believe he's been the same since that terrible concussion he had. I hope Tua returns to full health and doesn't have life altering effects from this. It still makes you wonder with how bad it looked last night on the field. 

You said Trent Edwards, but I was thinking of Jim McMahon.  After my son’s 5th concussion (all from lax, none from tackle football), he asked me if he should continue to honor his full scholarship he recvd for lax.  I asked him a few questions, and he said thanks dad for not telling me I couldn’t.  I told him it’s his body and mind so he needs to make the decision.  I then told him “Ian, you were looking for permission weren’t you”. He told me he didn’t want to let me down.  I told him that was never a consideration.  The point is he quit moved back to FL and is graduating with his finance degree.

 

Tua needs to be thinking of the rest of his life.  The brain is not an organ to toy with to play sports.  Regardless of $.

 

I sincerely hope he is ok and does not play until he is not just 100%, but conservative 110%.  Don’t sniff the practice field until he’s really ready.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

If the system is set up so that the player just simply has to lie or be untruthful about what they are feeling then the entire concussion protocol system is flawed. As a doctor your eyes and training see one thing but your patient (the player) tells you contradictory information. What is a doctor to do?

[Nextmanup]

8 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I bet he plays next week even though he shouldn't 

 

7 minutes ago, FrenchConnection said:

I would put big money on that. 

I hear where you guys are coming from, but I don't think so.

 

Miami has now been caught and this is going to get a lot bigger before it goes away.

 

I think Tua sits out for a while at this point.

The fact that he was released from the hospital last night and flew home with the team means nothing. 

 

He may have severe lingering effects for weeks. Or none.  It's impossible to predict what's going on with him, but if he is "not right" I think he sits, as Miami already knows they are in enough trouble without doubling down.

 

 

1 minute ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

If the system is set up so that the player just simply has to lie or be untruthful about what they are feeling then the entire concussion protocol system is flawed. As a doctor your eyes and training see one thing but your patient (the player) tells you contradictory information. What is a doctor to do?

That's not how the system works.  If what we all assume is correct, the breakdown occurred with the independent neurosurgeon assigned to the team to clear players.

 

If there is visible evidence of head trauma in a game, even if the player later clears evaluation, the independent doctor is there to stop the player from re-entering the game he just got injured in, and the rule is he cannot play again that day.

 

Miami failed to do that, largely because Tua is a hell of a lot better QB than Teddy Bridewater.

 

Probably everyone involved in the process from head coach to head team physician to independent physical to Tua know what was going on, and they all went with the "I think he's fine, let him play!"

 

Which defeats the entire point of having the process in place.

It was basically a throwback to the 1980s and pre-concussion protocol thinking.

 

 

[Buffalo Boy]

   Haven’t read any of this thread, or if this has been mentioned.

    I watched Luke Kuechly come off the field balling like an inconsolable child on his last or second last concussion. Retired due to concussions.
    Dan Morgan had 18 tackles and seven assists in the Super Bowl. His nickname on Charlotte local radio was Douthful Dan because of his injury status. Retired early for concussions. 
    Tua needs to hang it up. Ego and love of football might cause him to choose otherwise but as others have said, he is simply physically incapable of being a QB in the NFL.

Edited September 30, 2022 by Buffalo Boy

[Billzgobowlin]

1 hour ago, benderbender said:

The worst part of watching the replay is how many times he could have hit the eject button on the play but didn't. He could have thrown a lower percentage ball, then he could have thrown it away. He scrambled for a way out, by that time he did the math and I think he didn't feel he had the arm strength to get it past the LOS where it wouldn't get intercepted. At that point he could have done the Brady signature curl up in a ball and surrender.  

 

I'm surprised that the Bengal wasn't fined or flagged for the extra effort but that's probably because we've seen the slo mo replay too many times. It would be a way the NFL could try to shift blame from the Dolphins "independent" neurologist/back injury specialist to the defender. 

 

Did anyone else notice how they tried to keep a somber tone at the half, but by the end of the game they could sense the outrage and allowed the commentators to speculate? I was hoping Sherman at the least would have had the grapes to say what he felt at halftime.

He would have gotten hit at some point no matter what because of the violence of the game.  

[benderbender]

1 hour ago, Ralonzo said:

Ian Rapaport on NFLN just alluded to Sunday saying Tua didn't go through concussion protocol because it was determined to be a neck injury and not a head injury. Now, that makes more sense than clearing it at halftime.

How does this make sense to anyone? He had an injury that visibly disrupted his central nervous system. But even if you go with the lame assumption it’s a neck injury, why in the world would you risk further injury to his spinal cord and brain? That’s the hill I can’t climb and why someone needs to go. 

 

1 hour ago, Ralonzo said:

As for the Bengal, what do you want him to do? Can't hit em high, can't hit em low, can't drive em down, can't land on em. That was basically a perfect rugby form tackle, hands around the waist and take to the ground. A severe injury on something like that means NFL QB might be beyond your physical capability.

I’m with you on that. Tua seems to have a brittle Sam Bradford frame. 

[Starr Almighty]

https://www.tiktok.com/t/ZTRmunk7h/

 

This is what I believe happened. It seems very accurate

[H2o]

19 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

I bet he plays next week even though he shouldn't 

I'd bet my entire life's savings he doesn't. I bet he sits for two or three weeks at the least. The Miami Dolphins and the NFL are now directly in the spotlight. Every sports network in America is all over this story today. He will not be allowed to see the field for at least a couple of weeks. 

[nedboy7]

People who have already sustained a concussion are at greater risk for subsequent concussions. The effects are likely to accumulate, in other words, each concussion causes more severe symptoms and requires longer recovery times.

[Low Positive]

As soon as I heard that he still lives with his parents, I knew that he would play next week.  The Tom Rinaldi piece on Tua that aired before the Alabama-LSU NCG has stuck with me for years and it is the reason that I would have never drafted him. Drafting Mahomes meant getting a idiot brother. Drafting Tua meant bringing the worst sports dad that I have ever heard of this side of professional tennis into your organization. 

[Nextmanup]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo Boy said:

   Haven’t read any of this thread, or if this has been mentioned.

    I watched Luke Kuechly come off the field balling like an inconsolable child on his last or second last concussion. Retired due to concussions.
    Dan Morgan had 18 tackles and seven assists in the Super Bowl. His nickname on Charlotte local radio was Douthful Dan because of his injury status. Retired early for concussions. 
    Tua needs to hang it up. Ego and love of football might cause him to choose otherwise but as others have said, he is simply physically incapable of being a QB in the NFL.

Lots of guys in many sports retire from concussions.  Others have as much as 7 or 8 of them, including severe ones, but are "OK" at a certain point and continue their careers.

You can't say who should do what with blanket statements.  It all varies greatly from player to player and from hit to hit.

 

The fact that Tua was clearly concussed 4 days ago and then got slammed again does not bode well for his longterm future, and yet he may easily recover from this, if that's how it plays out.

 

Then again, he may be experiencing bad symptoms right now.

 

In recent years, we have had Buffalo Sabres who missed an entire season of hockey and had to sit motionless in a dark room to avoid severe headaches and dizziness...and even they came back to play.

 

We will have to see how it all plays out for him.

 

 

[RiotAct]

5 minutes ago, H2o said:

I'd bet my entire life's savings he doesn't. I bet he sits for two or three weeks at the least. The Miami Dolphins and the NFL are now directly in the spotlight. Every sports network in America is all over this story today. He will not be allowed to see the field for at least a couple of weeks. 

heck, not just SPORTS networks.  I’ve seen CBS News and CNN articles come across my facebook feed in the last 11 hours.

[ArtVandalay]

4 hours ago, H2o said:

We all know last Sunday was not a back injury. He CLEARLY had a concussion, mild or whatever. Slammed his head on the ground, got up to walk, shook his head real quick trying to clear the cobwebs, then began to wobble when he walked, and teammates had to help him. Last night he has a head injury of a more gruesome variety. That one was scary. Laying there with his fingers all twisted up after being slammed to the ground by a 300+ lb man. It made me think of Trent Edwards and the Adrian Wilson hit. Trent was looking like the QB we had been waiting for until that day. That one hit changed everything. After that he was scared to death in the pocket. His career continued as a backup for a few years, but he was never the same. Tua was just starting his ascension after a couple of mediocre seasons and now this happens. He was definitely playing better. But now one has to wonder if this will change that trajectory. Will he be scared in the pocket? Will he see "ghosts" and be rattled at the first sense of pressure? Mentally, and physically, will he be able to overcome this? Sidney Crosby, different sport I know, has missed a ton of time due to head injuries and I don't believe he's been the same since that terrible concussion he had. I hope Tua returns to full health and doesn't have life altering effects from this. It still makes you wonder with how bad it looked last night on the field. 

This all looks like speculation to me. He had a back injury vs the Bills and all indications are it was a finger injury yesterday. 

 

He'll be back out there on Sunday

Edited September 30, 2022 by ArtVandalay

[FilthyBeast]

I certainly hope not. Kid is off to a great start and emerged as one of the league's elite QB's in his 3rd year similar to JA17.

 

If I were the Bills I'd tread very lightly with JA17 going forward as well considering all the injuries in this league including to all 3 starting QB's on the division rival teams. No more designed run crap and certainly need the oline to step up big time going forward!

[Charles Romes]

How many times was it brought up that Trent had his career game after the big concussion. 

[corta765]

funny I thought about Trent after that hit. Tua has had a few injuries now and that big hit is the type that can scar a player long term. I hope for Tua's sake it does not but it was very nasty (legal though) to watch. QBs these days with the rules have avoided these types of hits for the most part which is why I think the combination of a concussion from Sunday which looked clear as day with another massive head hit caused what happened.