PFT - Leslie Frazier: It’s discouraging I haven’t had another chance to be a head coach

[NoHuddleKelly12]

6 hours ago, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

Bill Belichick and Marv Levy had losing records their first go around as head coach, did their records lie? 

[billsbackto81]

7 hours ago, Gobills14094 said:

He's 21-32 as a head coach. That record doesn't lie.

Bill Belicheck was 20-28 his first 3 years as a HC.

 

Jimmy Johnson was 19-29 his first 3 years. 

 

Though I feel he wouldn't succeed as a HC if given another shot I do believe he is a decent DC.

 

 

[Trock]

13 seconds. Lucky he wasn’t fired, he will never get another hc opportunity. 

[NewEra]

Very good person, football mind and DC.  Unfortunately his age + his past record as a HC will likely keep him from getting another job.  I wouldn’t hire him if I were a GM based on those 2 things alone.  

[Aussie Joe]

He seems like a good guy…

 

But if McD gets hit by a bus tomorrow, does anyone want Frazier as the new head coach of the Bills?
 

No… I didn’t think so..

[Dr.Mantis_Toboggan]

13 seconds doesn’t happen and he likely has that opportunity somewhere right now, especially if Buffalo went on to win the Super Bowl like I’m almost certain they would’ve with the pace Josh was on…

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, billsbackto81 said:

Bill Belicheck was 20-28 his first 3 years as a HC.

 

Jimmy Johnson was 19-29 his first 3 years. 

 

Though I feel he wouldn't succeed as a HC if given another shot I do believe he is a decent DC.

 

 

 

 

This gets rehashed a lot.  BB took a 3 win team to 6, 7, and 11 wins and a playoff appearance.  At some point, Vinny Testaverde as your top QB runs out of steam...

 

In 2 of Frazier's 3 full seasons in Minny, his teams had the worst D in the league re; giving up points.

[billsbackto81]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

This gets rehashed a lot.  BB took a 3 win team to 6, 7, and 11 wins and a playoff appearance.  At some point, Vinny Testaverde as your top QB runs out of steam...

 

In 2 of Frazier's 3 full seasons in Minny, his teams had the worst D in the league re; giving up points.

Not saying you're wrong.  A lot of coaches have poor starts before they can right the ship. I'm just saying a poor start to a past coaching career shouldn't be the standard or determining factor on whether a candidate should get another HC gig or not. Like many you learn from mistakes, right? Frazier may have had a 💩 hand dealt to him in Minny but I've seen enough to believe he wouldn't succeed if given the opportunity again.

 

JMHO. Of course I could be wrong.

Edited July 8, 2022 by billsbackto81

[boater]

I wonder.... does he just interview poorly? If so, I can relate, my interviews are a house of horrors.

[vincec]

3 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

Bill Belicheck was 20-28 his first 3 years as a HC.

 

Jimmy Johnson was 19-29 his first 3 years. 

 

Though I feel he wouldn't succeed as a HC if given another shot I do believe he is a decent DC.

 

 

Jimmy Johnson? You’re seriously reaching.

[billsbackto81]

6 minutes ago, vincec said:

Jimmy Johnson? You’re seriously reaching.

The man went 1-15 his first season.

 

19 wins in his first 48 games as a HC then goes on to win 2 consecutive championships.

 

How is that reaching?

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

Perhaps he should pick up the book “The Peter Principle” …. That would explain it

[vincec]

7 minutes ago, billsbackto81 said:

The man went 1-15 his first season.

 

19 wins in his first 48 games as a HC then goes on to win 2 consecutive championships.

 

How is that reaching?

 

They guy took over a terrible Cowboys team and by his third season had them in the playoffs, got them a playoff win, and a regular season win over the Super Bowl champion Redskins. There was never any question that had turned the Cowboys around by the end of his second season let alone after 48 games. To imply that the jury was still out on him after three seasons is reaching.

[ganesh]

11 hours ago, Gobills14094 said:

He's 21-32 as a head coach. That record doesn't lie.

However,  people like Doug Marrone still got 2nd jobs (Pretty quickly) with such putrid win/losses.

His record was 

Buffalo -  15-17.  and immediately got the JAX job.

Went 23-43 in 4 seasons at JAX. (He was given four seasons for being mediocre).

 

Worst was that Doug was neither good in offense nor defense.

 

On the flip side,  Greg Williams went 17-31 in his four seasons in Buffalo; but never got to be HC again other than an interim stint in Cleveland.

Edited July 9, 2022 by ganesh

[billsbackto81]

2 hours ago, vincec said:

They guy took over a terrible Cowboys team and by his third season had them in the playoffs, got them a playoff win, and a regular season win over the Super Bowl champion Redskins. There was never any question that had turned the Cowboys around by the end of his second season let alone after 48 games. To imply that the jury was still out on him after three seasons is reaching.

All I'm implying is that coaches with mediocre records after 3 seasons still can go on to have tremendous success. I just don't believe Frazier is one of them.  In Johnson's case the record is a bit skewed because of the 1-15. We all personally know what they went on to be after that.😪😪

[BarleyNY]

23 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I think that it’s tough to inspire a fan base with the hiring of a 63 year-old DC. I hate to say it like that because Frazier has earned the opportunity. Typically bad teams are looking for “who’s next.” They want the next McVay. They continue to hire, young, creative, offensive minds. The market is narrow for Leslie Frazier. He needs a situation like Jacksonville that was a total disaster and needs an adult in the room to stabilize. I suppose if the Browns blow up this year he might be an option?  I guess that Lovie Smith was an exception to this but those situations are few and far between. I just don’t see, for example, the Jets turning that group over to LF if things don’t work out here. It will be “the next young offensive mind.”

I agree.  63 and a DC who is under a HC who was a DC.  You can’t even know how much of the success on that side of the ball is him versus McDermott.  That’s a tough sell even for a coordinator who is on the “right” side of the ball, and he’s not.  

[Kirby Jackson]

59 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

I agree.  63 and a DC who is under a HC who was a DC.  You can’t even know how much of the success on that side of the ball is him versus McDermott.  That’s a tough sell even for a coordinator who is on the “right” side of the ball, and he’s not.  

I equate it to when the Broncos hired Vic Fangio. There weren’t any Broncos fans that were like, “yes, we got Vic Fangio!!! Watch out world!!”

Edited July 9, 2022 by Kirby Jackson

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, billsbackto81 said:

Not saying you're wrong.  A lot of coaches have poor starts before they can right the ship. I'm just saying a poor start to a past coaching career shouldn't be the standard or determining factor on whether a candidate should get another HC gig or not. Like many you learn from mistakes, right? Frazier may have had a 💩 hand dealt to him in Minny but I've seen enough to believe he wouldn't succeed if given the opportunity again.

 

JMHO. Of course I could be wrong.

 

 

BB was credited much for the Giants success in SB 25.  Before Minny, Frazier had a fairly undistinguished career as an assistant on a few teams.  He was fired from each of  his 2 Coordinator jobs in Cincy and Tampa after 2 seasons.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

27 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

BB was credited much for the Giants success in SB 25.  Before Minny, Frazier had a fairly undistinguished career as an assistant on a few teams.  He was fired from each of  his 2 Coordinator jobs in Cincy and Tampa after 2 seasons.

And by my recollection he has had play calling duties taken away at least twice by McDermott. 

Nice guy but not someone I would hire as HC.

There are far worse retread hires that have been made though. Mostly failed white guys like Marrone, Jauron,  Mularkey, Whisenhunt, McDaniels, Ryan, Mangini, and McCarthy that have gotten second chances.  Frazier has as good or bad of a record as this horrible list of retreads.

 

Edited July 9, 2022 by Ethan in Portland

[GaryPinC]

42 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

And by my recollection he has had play calling duties taken away at least twice by McDermott. 

Nice guy but not someone I would hire as HC.

There are far worse retread hires that have been made though. Mostly failed white guys like Marrone, Jauron,  Mularkey, Whisenhunt, McDaniels, Ryan, Mangini, and McCarthy that have gotten second chances.  Frazier has as good or bad of a record as this horrible list of retreads.

 

Yep, part of Frazier being too nice = not enough passion, aggression, fire and goal driven to be successful.  And now his age also works against him.  Think about McDermott and how in his first two years how cautious he was on offense and how much it's changed since then.  Nice guy, but fiery, concise, and goal driven.  Frazier's hit his ceiling, those in the league that don't see it, McD and the Pegula's trying to lobby him a HC job after last season sealed it.

[Punching Bag]

On 7/8/2022 at 10:19 AM, vtnatefootball11 said:

 

Bill Belichick and Marv Levy had losing records their first go around as head coach, did their records lie? 

 

Bill Beli-CHEAT would lie even when the truth is easier to say.  He needs to keep the practice going.

 

 

Movie to be released after he retires.

 

 

[klos63]

On 7/8/2022 at 4:21 AM, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Our defense has been pretty good since he’s been here and he’s one of us so i don’t want to just go all in here…but why would he get hired again as a head coach? He’d be an old retread that runs a soft shell zone, zero aggression, no fire, stands there like a wax figure and was a bad head coach the first time? Now he’s the DC of a loaded team with a defensive minded head coach that is no doubt pulling the strings. Almost every good QB has all day to just get comfortable and make throws. Thankfully our cover guys are excellent. That covers up a lot. I hate his conservative play calling and often wish McDermott would just completely take over this defense.
 

We could definitely do worse, don’t get me wrong. It’s not as if the guy is bad or anything….but why would you hire this guy as a HC? He seems like a great guy and he’s performing pretty well in his current role. But good coordinators are sometimes just that. He got a chance and pretty much showed why it’s not worth it. 

So McDermott is pulling all the strings, but it's Frazier you blame for soft shell zone, zero agression... almost every good QB has all day to throw....conservative play calling. So what strings are McDermott pulling?

[JaBu]

On 7/8/2022 at 7:46 AM, machine gun kelly said:

KJ, always good hearing from you and yes, good points.  Frazier has been selective and declined if I remember correctly the Texans interview before Cully was hired.  He’s going to have to accept dumpster fires if he wants a chance.

 

On 7/8/2022 at 9:46 AM, LeGOATski said:

As noted above, he declined the opportunity to interview for the Texans......because Texans.

 

Actually he did interview for the Texans job:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2021/01/25/texans-setting-up-second-interviews-with-leslie-frazier-david-culley/

 

I think he would take any head coach job he could get, no matter that prospective team's current situation.

 

[klos63]

5 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

And by my recollection he has had play calling duties taken away at least twice by McDermott. 

Nice guy but not someone I would hire as HC.

There are far worse retread hires that have been made though. Mostly failed white guys like Marrone, Jauron,  Mularkey, Whisenhunt, McDaniels, Ryan, Mangini, and McCarthy that have gotten second chances.  Frazier has as good or bad of a record as this horrible list of retreads.

 

I wish people would stop referring to these coaches as 'retreads' , it's a very insulting term. Getting a 2nd opportunity as a job shouldn't have a negative connotation with it.

[Chicken Boo]

He'll have his best chance maybe ever to draw interest, having the defense he does currently.  

[bigK14094]

On 7/8/2022 at 9:14 AM, Gobills14094 said:

He's 21-32 as a head coach. That record doesn't lie.

Marv Levy got a second chance here after taking a fail at KC.  Marv went to Montreol and was HC there when the Bills picked him up.  And he wasn't young when that happened.  It may happen yet for Frazier!  But, its hard to give up the $3mil paycheck he gets as DC for the Bills.  Big pay cut to go the route Marv Levy did.

[Brianmoorman4jesus]

17 hours ago, klos63 said:

So McDermott is pulling all the strings, but it's Frazier you blame for soft shell zone, zero agression... almost every good QB has all day to throw....conservative play calling. So what strings are McDermott pulling?

More basing it on what he was as the coach in Minnesota. Also the rare times you can visibly see McDermott get hands on and call the defense. And the level of pressure and intensity increase. 

[CheshireCT]

17 hours ago, klos63 said:

I wish people would stop referring to these coaches as 'retreads' , it's a very insulting term. Getting a 2nd opportunity as a job shouldn't have a negative connotation with it.

Exactly, just because it didn't go well once, doesn't mean anything. So many reasons for that, including front office, roster, etc etc..... Plus he probably learned from all that.

 

I do see his age as a negative against him. Of course he has tons of valuable experience and has proven a lot, but a team would prefer to hit on a young guy that will be around to stabilize the franchise for years (like our like with McDermott).

 

Selfishly I'm glad we get to keep him, and hope he feels great personal satisfaction when the Bills finally win the Super Bowl.

[Beerball]

Not sure if Frazier has what it takes, but while he's on McD's staff there will always be questions about who is calling the shots. If it's that important to him he needs to move on and find success at a place where 50% of the people think he's not in charge of his defense.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:21 AM, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Our defense has been pretty good since he’s been here and he’s one of us so i don’t want to just go all in here…but why would he get hired again as a head coach? He’d be an old retread that runs a soft shell zone, zero aggression, no fire, stands there like a wax figure and was a bad head coach the first time? Now he’s the DC of a loaded team with a defensive minded head coach that is no doubt pulling the strings. Almost every good QB has all day to just get comfortable and make throws. Thankfully our cover guys are excellent. That covers up a lot. I hate his conservative play calling and often wish McDermott would just completely take over this defense.
 

We could definitely do worse, don’t get me wrong. It’s not as if the guy is bad or anything….but why would you hire this guy as a HC? He seems like a great guy and he’s performing pretty well in his current role. But good coordinators are sometimes just that. He got a chance and pretty much showed why it’s not worth it. 

I still want to know who was calling the defensive plays in the 4th qtr of the KC playoff game. 

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I still want to know who was calling the defensive plays in the 4th qtr of the KC playoff game. 

If you don't know by now then you never will

[Sharky7337]

It's more discouraging the bills fambase has another debacle to live in infamy for the rest of our fandom thanks to them! 

[Doc Brown]

On 7/8/2022 at 6:59 AM, Doc said:

The end of the Chiefs game did him in. 

Was it him or McDermott that called that coverage though?  Regardless, the defense couldn't cover a stationary wall with paint that game and Frazier doesn't deserve a head coaching job given that game along his failed head coaching record with the Vikings.

[Turk71]

Ya, so puzzling. A real shocker nobody wants him after that Chiefs game.

 Is he really that unaware of the optics and size of that debacle?  

That was literally the worst coaching I've ever seen in over 55 years of watching football. 

 

[Doc Brown]

On 7/9/2022 at 10:49 AM, Ethan in Portland said:

And by my recollection he has had play calling duties taken away at least twice by McDermott. 

Nice guy but not someone I would hire as HC.

There are far worse retread hires that have been made though. Mostly failed white guys like Marrone, Jauron,  Mularkey, Whisenhunt, McDaniels, Ryan, Mangini, and McCarthy that have gotten second chances.  Frazier has as good or bad of a record as this horrible list of retreads.

 

There's been black head coaches that have been given more than one head coaching shot.  Just off the top of my head.....Tony Dungy, Dennis Green, Art Shell, Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards, Hue Jackson, Jim Caldwell, and Todd Bowles.  I think the main criticism out there is that they're given a shorter leash than their white contemporaries and that's difficult to argue with.

[GunnerBill]

On 7/9/2022 at 9:16 PM, klos63 said:

I wish people would stop referring to these coaches as 'retreads' , it's a very insulting term. Getting a 2nd opportunity as a job shouldn't have a negative connotation with it.

 

In what way is it insulting?

[Mr. WEO]

13 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

There's been black head coaches that have been given more than one head coaching shot.  Just off the top of my head.....Tony Dungy, Dennis Green, Art Shell, Lovie Smith, Herm Edwards, Hue Jackson, Jim Caldwell, and Todd Bowles.  I think the main criticism out there is that they're given a shorter leash than their white contemporaries and that's difficult to argue with.

 

Lovie Smith was around for 9 years in Chicago.  Had a good run.  Terrible with Tampa.

 

Short leash for He Jackson??  He went 1-15, followed that with a 0-16....and still was brought back for another season.

[T master]

On 7/8/2022 at 5:56 AM, LeGOATski said:

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/07/08/leslie-frazier-its-discouraging-i-havent-had-another-chance-to-be-a-head-coach/

 

 

He seems like a good candidate. Some people may be surprised he hasn't gotten another opportunity, but the league in general seems to covet the younger offense-minded guys

 

I think he is a great coach & shold most definitely be given the shot to be a HC again in the league but i think god has a plan for him & it is to first help the Bills to win their first lumbar trophy & bring it home to Buffalo then he will be given another shot at the HC ing thing ...

 

 

GO BILLS !! 

[LeGOATski]

3 hours ago, T master said:

 

I think he is a great coach & shold most definitely be given the shot to be a HC again in the league but i think god has a plan for him & it is to first help the Bills to win their first lumbar trophy & bring it home to Buffalo then he will be given another shot at the HC ing thing ...

 

 

GO BILLS !! 

God doesn't give a ***** about Super Bowls, man

[stuvian]

Why does he think he's earned another shot at HC? He had one shot more than most and did a middling job with it.