Growing speculation that Stephen Ross might be forced to sell Dolphins(EDIT: Has succession plan in place to cede controlling interest to Bruce Beal if need be)

[stevewin]

But what about Fergie and J-Lo?

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

His NFL career is already over.  That's a huge part of why his actions are so brave.

 

He's not looking to make a few bucks, he's looking to right some wrongs.

 

🙄

If Robert Smith ends up being the owner of the Broncos, I'd hire Flores to head my operations of football. Honorable, respectable, hard working. Those are some of the characteristics I'd want leading my company. 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

5 minutes ago, mannc said:

Highly unlikely anyone would or could “plead the fifth” in such a case.  And you’re just assuming witnesses will lie under oath…to protect an ass***e like Ross?

All it would take is one witness with some credibility saying that they heard Ross say it…or a text or email from Ross, and he’s cooked.

 

What people, specifically, do you think would have been witness to this conversation between Ross and Flores ?

 

From Flores's lawsuit it seems like a 1 on 1 conversation between Ross and Flores. The only other person who might've been involved would be the GM Grier. 

 

Do you think Ross would testify that he broke the law and asked Flores to throw games? Would Grier testify against his current boss and likely destroy his future NFL career ? I think Ross/Grier would be left with 3 options. 1-  plead the fifth, 2 - say they can't recall the specifics of the conversation, or 3- say that Flores is mis-remembering/interpreting the conversation 

 

Text/email would be a different story. It seems unlikely that Ross sent Flores anything in writing or Flores would've included it in the initial lawsuit. Then it comes down to whether or not a judge would grant a fishing expedition subpoena for Ross's emails/texts. I think that would be unlikely at this point (with no other corroborating witness/evidence other than what Flores says happened), but who knows. 

[1ManRaid]

6 hours ago, Ray Stonada said:

Ross is a sleaze bag. (Know someone who was hired by him on a real estate project, totally unrelated to football.)

 

 

I'd be interested to hear at least vague details.

[bigduke6]

hold on,  rich people trying to game a system,  being sketchy,  skirt rules?    i dont believe it.

[aristocrat]

Man the NFL is having some owner issues. But if Kraft was never forced to sell I doubt Ross is forced to sell. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

53 minutes ago, Solomon Grundy said:

If Robert Smith ends up being the owner of the Broncos, I'd hire Flores to head my operations of football. Honorable, respectable, hard working. Those are some of the characteristics I'd want leading my company. 

 

Ability to communicate, engage, and negotiate compromise might matter

[bigK14094]

2 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

His NFL career is already over.  That's a huge part of why his actions are so brave.

 

He's not looking to make a few bucks, he's looking to right some wrongs.

 

🙄

He will take a cash settlement.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

5 hours ago, ALLEN1QB said:

Something Fishy about this thread.

You did that on porpoise!

 

[mannc]

1 hour ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

What people, specifically, do you think would have been witness to this conversation between Ross and Flores ?

 

From Flores's lawsuit it seems like a 1 on 1 conversation between Ross and Flores. The only other person who might've been involved would be the GM Grier. 

 

Do you think Ross would testify that he broke the law and asked Flores to throw games? Would Grier testify against his current boss and likely destroy his future NFL career ? I think Ross/Grier would be left with 3 options. 1-  plead the fifth, 2 - say they can't recall the specifics of the conversation, or 3- say that Flores is mis-remembering/interpreting the conversation 

 

Text/email would be a different story. It seems unlikely that Ross sent Flores anything in writing or Flores would've included it in the initial lawsuit. Then it comes down to whether or not a judge would grant a fishing expedition subpoena for Ross's emails/texts. I think that would be unlikely at this point (with no other corroborating witness/evidence other than what Flores says happened), but who knows. 

I have no idea who, if anyone, might have witnessed such a conversation.  Nor do I know how reckless or stupid Ross is, so I don't know how discreet he would have been or whether he would have been foolish enough to put something incriminating in an email or a text.  (It's not clear to me that offering Flores a "bonus" to lose games would constitute a crime, BTW, although I'm sure it could get him bounced from the league.)  I have no doubt that Ross would deny giving Flores any such instruction, but so what?  And I can't predict what Grier might say under oath. If he witnessed such a conversation, I'd like to think he would not commit perjury to protect a lowlife like Ross. I don't believe Grief testifying truthfully about what he might have witnessed would "destroy his future NFL career".  I think his horrible draft record could, though.

 

Finally, the bolded part is just wrong.  In litigation, parties are given a great deal of leeway to seek documents that are even potentially relevant, and Ross's emails and texts would absolutely be discoverable in a case like this.  Such a request would hardly be considered a "fishing expedition", regardless of whether there are "other corroborating witnesses".       

Edited February 15, 2022 by mannc

[Southern Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

His NFL career is already over.  That's a huge part of why his actions are so brave.

 

He's not looking to make a few bucks, he's looking to right some wrongs.

 

🙄

I wouldn’t exactly call his actions brave. Apparently he was willing to go along with it until he got fired. He didn’t say anything when it happened. He’s not looking to make a few bucks? I think you better look at how much he’s suing for. 

[TheFunPolice]

When did tanking become a federal crime? Fraud? What fraud? Were you somehow promised in writing that your team was doing all it could to win?

 

In that case, any team that rests its starters is breaking the law. It's a Pandora's box. 

 

And now fans are supposedly outraged? LOL Please. Fans WANT their teams to lose and get the #1 pick when they are awful. Now we're going to pretend that's not true? 

 

Just watch YouTube videos of when the Jets won to cost themselves the #1 pick. Fans were going crazy because they won and missed out on Trevuh. 

 

Weren't Sabres fans all into the tank, making it a whole event? You actually had fans cheering like crazy when the Coyotes beat the Sabres in Buffalo to keep them ahead for the best chances in that draft. Of course, we know what happened. They got the #2 pick and it was a disaster. Maybe it's Karma. 

 

I get "not coming out and saying it" but the idea of tanking (or just not going all out to win) is pretty well known and talked about often. One could argue that it's actually playing the long game to WIN BIG.

 

If the next Peyton Manning is sitting there as a reward, and your franchise just needs to lose 1 more game to GUARANTEE the chance to draft him #1 overall, while the next guy is a tackle or something, it cannot be denied that losing that game:

 

1) HELPS your team get what it needs to have a chance to contend for 15+ years

2) Makes your fans happy

Edited February 15, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[Coffeesforclosers]

It's not that tanking is a crime, it's that you really shouldn't offer your coach bribes to lose while you're invested in a SportsBook startup.  That's called point shaving, or match fixing, or insider trading.

[TheFunPolice]

3 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

When people are being paid to throw a game I'm pretty sure it is a crime. 

 

Being paid to throw a game... that's tough to pin down exactly. 

 

Look at Flores' case: how could HE throw a game? His players are not going to not try to win. His assistant coaches are not going to sabotage their careers. 

 

Pretty much the only thing a HC could do to try to lose would be to jerk his QB around by taking in and out of games, constantly churning through assistant coaches, doing bizarre things like hiring 2 OC to be "co offensive coordinators," alienating everyone in the building, not even communicating with his coaching staff anymore, and doing everything he could to kill the confidence of his QB...

 

Oh wait 

Edited February 15, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[Royale with Cheese]

3 hours ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

You did that on porpoise!

 

 

Lets keep this up...it's fintastic!

[TheFunPolice]

9 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

It's not that tanking is a crime, it's that you really shouldn't offer your coach bribes to lose while you're invested in a SportsBook startup.  That's called point shaving, or match fixing, or insider trading.

 

But how could a HC lose a game on purpose? 

 

I listed some possible ways in my response to another poster below, but that's not Flores... 

 

Unless.... 

[Beast]

3 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

Being paid to throw a game... that's tough to pin down exactly. 

 

Look at Flores' case: how could HE throw a game? His players are not going to not try to win. His assistant coaches are not going to sabotage their careers. 

 

Pretty much the only thing a HC could do to try to lose would be to jerk his QB around by taking in and out of games, constantly churning through assistant coaches, doing bizarre things like hiring 2 OC to be "co offensive coordinators," alienating everyone in the building, not even communicating with his coaching staff anymore, and doing everything he could to kill the confidence of his QB...

 

Oh wait 

 

Actually, my post is probably wrong and I deleted it because the statute may also involve gambling on the outcome of the game after paying someone to throw it.

 

I still say if what Flores said is true (big if) the NFL absolutely has to pull the team from him. It's one thing to make off and in-season player moves to influence the outcome of a season. It's totally another to actually make in-game decisions that negatively influence what is happening on the field.

[TheFunPolice]

2 minutes ago, Beast said:

 

Actually, my post is probably wrong and I deleted it because the statute may also involve gambling on the outcome of the game after paying someone to throw it.

 

I still say if what Flores said is true (big if) the NFL absolutely has to pull the team from him. It's one thing to make off and in-season player moves to influence the outcome of a season. It's totally another to actually make in-game decisions that negatively influence what is happening on the field.

 

I wonder though... Everything I posted was things that Flores did that many people said made no sense at the time. 

 

But maybe it was his way of trying to make that (losing) happen? He certainly didn't stand up and say something at the time. 

 

A HC "trying to lose" would actually be pretty hard to do, especially not making it too obvious. Like I said, the assistant coaches making peanuts who are trying to work their way up the ladder are not going to go along with it, nor are the players. 

Edited February 15, 2022 by TheFunPolice

[HappyDays]

32 minutes ago, Coffeesforclosers said:

It's not that tanking is a crime, it's that you really shouldn't offer your coach bribes to lose while you're invested in a SportsBook startup.  That's called point shaving, or match fixing, or insider trading.

 

It would only be a crime if Ross directly bet on games. Investing in a sports gambling company while trying to tank your team is not a conflict of interest. If it was, being a team owner would itself be a conflict of interest.

[Orlando Tim]

23 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

But how could a HC lose a game on purpose? 

 

I listed some possible ways in my response to another poster below, but that's not Flores... 

 

Unless.... 

A head coach could "lose intentionally" simply by playing for the future. In 2018 Josh Allen was not the best QB Buffalo could start to win at that moment but he was the one we all went with because we thought he could become what he is now.

[Billy Claude]

In Flores first year he called an all out blitz against the Steelers on a 3rd and 20 at midfield with 20 sec left in the first half.  A lot people said that was proof that Flores was tanking.  Maybe he got paid for it too.

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

1 minute ago, Billy Claude said:

In Flores first year he called an all out blitz against the Steelers on a 3rd and 20 at midfield with 20 sec left in the first half.  A lot people said that was proof that Flores was tanking.  Maybe he got paid for it too.

That’s not really the narrative Flores is hoping to create with this though.

 

He doesn’t want league, media and fans going back to every single play that didn’t work over 3 seasons and say “see there’s proof he was tanking”

 

If that is what we are going to do someone go check The Bills D and Special Teams coordinators bank accounts.

 

Flora’s wants the narrative to be I was bribed and I refused and I was then treated differently and fired for it.

[Nitro]

Flores has to have tangible evidence other than a one on one conversation.  NFL will land in court if they try to force Ross to sell prior this lawsuit going to court.  More I read of this the more I think Flores is a guy with a chip on his shoulder.  Burning bridges on any coaching career.

[Don Otreply]

13 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

It would only be a crime if Ross directly bet on games. Investing in a sports gambling company while trying to tank your team is not a conflict of interest. If it was, being a team owner would itself be a conflict of interest.

Or if he gave said info to those betting…. Fixing or attempted fixing of a game that has people wagering on its outcome is likely a crime…

[Beast]

54 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

I wonder though... Everything I posted was things that Flores did that many people said made no sense at the time. 

 

But maybe it was his way of trying to make that (losing) happen? He certainly didn't stand up and say something at the time. 

 

A HC "trying to lose" would actually be pretty hard to do, especially not making it too obvious. Like I said, the assistant coaches making peanuts who are trying to work their way up the ladder are not going to go along with it, nor are the players. 

 

I don't think a HC trying to lose would be difficult at all. Say Miami is playing Buffalo. Flores goes to his DC and says I want a little more concentration on the Bills running game this week. Even 20 percent more than they usually gave it and it takes away from preperation from Allen and the passing game. I believe that would be a big deal come Sunday.

Edited February 15, 2022 by Beast

[harryS]

Flores wins if this happens.  I believe Flores' career was already in danger because Ross was backstabbing / ratfudging him with the other owners; Flores was about to be blackballed out of the league.  But if he can make Ross lose his team on the way out, then Flores will have gotten his vengeance.

 

The "NFL is racist" stuff was just to draw as many eyeballs as possible to the situation in Miami and Flores' accusations.  Flores may very well believe it but it's not his primary motive.  As they way, "all politics is personal", and in this case there is a personal vendetta between Flores and Ross.

[Billy Claude]

2 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

That’s not really the narrative Flores is hoping to create with this though.

 

He doesn’t want league, media and fans going back to every single play that didn’t work over 3 seasons and say “see there’s proof he was tanking”

 

If that is what we are going to do someone go check The Bills D and Special Teams coordinators bank accounts.

 

Flora’s wants the narrative to be I was bribed and I refused and I was then treated differently and fired for it.

 

I agreed that this doesn't help Flores' lawsuit but it would certainly hurt Ross and it was definitely a move nobody understood at the time.

Edited February 16, 2022 by Billy Claude

[BruceVilanch]

8 hours ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

"I plead the fifth"

 

or

 

"I do not recall that conversation"

[Donuts and Doritos]

Ross could loose more than the team. He was the owner of a sports betting business at the time of this (see link below). If they can prove he was paying to throw games while running a sports betting business that stood to make $ on those losses, that's a federal racketeering indictment & a possible prison term. Long way to go to get evidence to prove it. But w/ NFL getting into the gambling business this could get to be an issue pretty quickly.

 

https://www.yogonet.com/international/news/2019/11/29/51709-nfl-39s-miami-dolphins-39-owner-stephen-ross-invests-in-sports-betting-startup

[The Wiz]

3 hours ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

I wonder though... Everything I posted was things that Flores did that many people said made no sense at the time. 

 

But maybe it was his way of trying to make that (losing) happen? He certainly didn't stand up and say something at the time. 

 

A HC "trying to lose" would actually be pretty hard to do, especially not making it too obvious. Like I said, the assistant coaches making peanuts who are trying to work their way up the ladder are not going to go along with it, nor are the players.

That's basically every HC we had during the drought.

 

We are winning, let's do something different than what got us winning in the first place. 

 

They adjusted to the defense we were running, keep running it until it works. 

 

We ran really well when they showed this look for 3 1/2 qtrs, let's pass instead. 

 

I don't think it would be that hard to do. 

Edited February 16, 2022 by The Wiz

[NoSaint]

19 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

His lawyers say he has corroborating witnesses. The question of course is whether they are willing to risk their careers speaking out? The NFL tends to close ranks on perceived trouble makers even if they are justified. 

they gave the Saints whistle blower a job in the league office

2 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Ross could loose more than the team. He was the owner of a sports betting business at the time of this (see link below). If they can prove he was paying to throw games while running a sports betting business that stood to make $ on those losses, that's a federal racketeering indictment & a possible prison term. Long way to go to get evidence to prove it. But w/ NFL getting into the gambling business this could get to be an issue pretty quickly.

 

https://www.yogonet.com/international/news/2019/11/29/51709-nfl-39s-miami-dolphins-39-owner-stephen-ross-invests-in-sports-betting-startup

even if he didn’t make money off it, fixing sports games isn’t legal 

[Augie]

Ralph was subtle.  

 

 

😋

[Big Blitz]

Good Lord Florio.  I just read the yahoo story I didn't see the pregame report Sunday.  Not buying this at all.  

 

The NFL is being charged (again) with essentially systemic racism by Flores.

 

Not a good look to be seen as ignoring his charges by not reporting on the developments in his lawsuit.  

 

The NFL's legal team in response to a question about the league potentially being seen as "burying" all stories involving Flores and his lawsuit: 

 

"Um......let's be a bit proactive here; just put all the reports on NFL.com.  When this is over we need to at least have made it clear ANY talk of tanking is unacceptable and we will even force you to sell!"  *Lawyers chest bump Goodell*

 

 

This just makes zero sense.  When franchise resets happen you don't think it isn't discussed at all - draft position - it's not even mentioned "we're gonna suck in year 1, which is fine because the top pick is Joe Burrow.  Hmmm."  

 

Give me a freaking break Florio.  Yes I do think it was probably a comment made as a joke because rich entitled out of touch owner gives zero f..s.  And the very well respected coach says "yes I'm definitely in the right place with the right culture.  This will end well."  

 

100K for every loss.  Lol yea Brian and I'm sure you weren't laughing it up to.  Say the team goes 2-14. "Thanks Brian great job!  Here is 1.4 million dollars - I'll send it to your venmo."  Yea Ross was completely serious about that 100K - even if a joke in discussing #1 picks - you open up a massive can of worms on oh I'm going to guess around 15 to 25 GMs and maybe other owners to.  

   

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

5 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Lets keep this up...it's fintastic!

I don't know about that. If we go overboard, people will just tuna us out. 

[Royale with Cheese]

10 hours ago, Bob Chandler's Hands said:

I don't know about that. If we go overboard, people will just tuna us out. 

 

That's dolphintely an issue that we need to prevent.

[Bob Chandler's Hands]

32 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

That's dolphintely an issue that we need to prevent.

I like the cut of your jib. 

[Mr. WEO]

19 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

That’s not really the narrative Flores is hoping to create with this though.

 

He doesn’t want league, media and fans going back to every single play that didn’t work over 3 seasons and say “see there’s proof he was tanking”

 

If that is what we are going to do someone go check The Bills D and Special Teams coordinators bank accounts.

 

Flora’s wants the narrative to be I was bribed and I refused and I was then treated differently and fired for it.

 

If the alleged offer from Ross came during the 2019 season, it had no impact on the outcome if Flores "refused".  The Fins still got the 2nd QB in the draft after Burrow--clearly the guy they wanted (maybe Flores excluded.

 

Then they play 2 full seasons......and then Ross fires Flores for "refusing to throw games" 2 years ago, despite it having no affect on their draft outcome?

 

 

 

17 hours ago, Donuts and Doritos said:

Ross could loose more than the team. He was the owner of a sports betting business at the time of this (see link below). If they can prove he was paying to throw games while running a sports betting business that stood to make $ on those losses, that's a federal racketeering indictment & a possible prison term. Long way to go to get evidence to prove it. But w/ NFL getting into the gambling business this could get to be an issue pretty quickly.

 

https://www.yogonet.com/international/news/2019/11/29/51709-nfl-39s-miami-dolphins-39-owner-stephen-ross-invests-in-sports-betting-startup

 

Not sure why people are still confusing this.  Flores's whole suit is that NO games were thrown, because he refused to go along with the scheme--so he says.  

[JoshAllin]

Doesn't make sense offering Flores $100k for loses when that refs would do much better

[soflabillsfan1]

If Flores doesn't have definitive, clear, substantiated evidence that he was offered money to lose games, then someone gave him some really bad advice. 

[Donuts and Doritos]

2 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

Not sure why people are still confusing this.  Flores's whole suit is that NO games were thrown, because he refused to go along with the scheme--so he says.  

Attempt is also a crime.