Call your shot: How is DE battle resolved? (update - after preseason games)

[Don Otreply]

12 minutes ago, LeGOATski said:

You called it an "addiction" in a derogatory sense.

 

They should keep Johnson because he's a core guy on ST. They already lost a core guy, the core guy.

Your sense of humor needs a tune up, You need a better quality sarcasm pick up installed ASAP…, 😁

[skibum]

55 minutes ago, Charles Romes said:

Boogie to IR

Yes, the old Vosean Joseph maneuver! I think that was his name, anyway.

 

That actually sounds like a likely scenario if they don't think Boogie's ready. Charles, I think you might have called it!

Edited August 17, 2021 by skibum

[MJS]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Not necessarily true on the DLine with how much they rotate...even the last player on the DLine is probably getting about 20% of the snaps.

I would assume it is far less than 20% for the last guy on the depth chart, but I'd have to look it up.

[LeGOATski]

13 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Your sense of humor needs a tune up, You need a better quality sarcasm pick up installed ASAP…, 😁

Yeah, my bad. You're super funny.

[3rdand12]

4 hours ago, No_Matter_What said:

Each day I wonder more how this gets resolved.

 

Jerry was our best DE last year and he is a valuable vet presence.

They seem to like Addison, he is a vet and he took a paycut to stay. I can still hardly imagine Beane cutting him.

AJ is in his second year and seems to be doing good - I almost excluded him from the poll.

Obada seems to be doing great and has already proven something.

Groot is 1st round pick and looked great so far. He shouldn't even be in the poll.

Johnson receives great praise from the coaches all the time, like today from Frasier, and he is a core special teamer, which they value a lot.

Basham seems to be clearly the weakest of the bunch right now, but he is a 2nd round pick and it will be extremely risky/impossible to try to sneak him into PS.

I seriously doubt we will keep 7 DEs.

 

So what is your solution?

 

I don't see any. I prefer trading Addison but I doubt Beane can do it. So I go with trading Obada, even though I'd hate it.

Kick Basham in the shin reall hard and put him in pup  lol

[Putin]

2 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

This has been my thought since the draft. If Beane could get a pick in the top 120 back for Hughes, I think Jerry is a goner. 

Jerry might still be our best pass rusher 

[3rdand12]

1 minute ago, Putin said:

Jerry might still be our best pass rusher 

and you don't do Jerry that way.

 This is his last year most likely with all the Competition coming from behind him. Let him play, let him teach.

and gosh darnit !  let him enjoy his new SB ring that is already in the Mail

 Go Bills

[Ya Digg?]

40 minutes ago, skibum said:

Yes, the old Vosean Joseph maneuver! I think that was his name, anyway.

 

That actually sounds like a likely scenario if they don't think Boogie's ready. Charles, I think you might have called it!

This would be a terrible move-is your thinking to stash him there all season? Would be a horrible use of a second round pick in his first year. They didn’t pick him in the second to stash him on the PS (would never make it through waivers anyway) or the IR 

[Jeff1954]

The likelihood is an injury or two will solve this problem.

Otherwise, the team needs some reliable veteran depth at tackle and corner. The D-line is an obvious place to find a player to trade. It might be then a matter of negotiation between teams.

Edited August 17, 2021 by Jeff1954

[atlbillsfan1975]

24 minutes ago, Putin said:

Jerry might still be our best pass rusher 

I really hope that’s not the case. Jerry has been average as a pass rusher.

[Charles Romes]

59 minutes ago, skibum said:

Yes, the old Vosean Joseph maneuver! I think that was his name, anyway.

 

That actually sounds like a likely scenario if they don't think Boogie's ready. Charles, I think you might have called it!

thanks skibum, the thread was fairly long and I was shocked after double checking that no else had called it. 

[Putin]

12 minutes ago, atlbillsfan1975 said:

I really hope that’s not the case. Jerry has been average as a pass rusher.

Same here  I’m hoping Rousseau , AJ , Obada and Boogie will ball out , 

[Freddie's Dead]

AJ Epenesa does not do it for me.  I hope I'm wrong, but I like him the least of the DE's we have now.

[Sherlock Holmes]

Swap for JJ Watt😙

[BillsShredder83]

7 hours ago, Warcodered said:

No way is a 2nd round pick making it to the practice squad.

Lol shhhhh he's outing himself as someone to ignore. 

 

Yeah man! Hes a lock to clear through 31 teams waivers and we'll see what he's got in the tank next year 😆

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

4 hours ago, Don Otreply said:

I’m talking about one guy, again not wholesale gutting of our special teams…  but anyway, it will be entertaining to watch the final 53 plus PS happen, 

 

Go Bills!!!

 

I was talking about one guy, I was not talking about gutting our special teams…, some of y’all are not grasping this…, 

What's your opinion on "Gutting" the Special teams anyway?? JK---> I'm with you

[without a drought]

Addison can be traded and now that it's after June 1, the dead cap is only $2mil and the cap savings is $6.mil. I could see this happening if they don't want to keep 7.

[BillsFanForever19]

I think even keeping 6 is pushing it. There's no way they're keeping 7. I've never seen them team keep more than 5 and most of my life it's only been 4. I think it's very likely we only keep Hughes, Adisson, Rougeau, Epenesa, and Basham.

 

I know everyone fell in love with the story, size and potential of Obada. But I could easily see a scenario where he was signed as a cover your @$$ by Beane in the event that the Draft didn't fall right for us at DE. Then not only did it fall right for us, but he was able to land not one, but two of his top guys. 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by BillsFanForever19

[Don Otreply]

8 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Yeah, my bad. You're super funny.

Thanks, I always thought so…, 

 

 

(sarcasm) 👍

[machine gun kelly]

Johnson is the logical choice and makes it on the PS if not picked up by another team.

[jwhit34]

You also have to think about who is active on game day. If they have 8 OL they can have 48 active on game day. It will probably look something like this (not accounting for injuries):

Offense: 22 - 2 QB, 3 RB, 6 WR, 3 TE, 8 OL

Defense: 23 - 8-9 DL. 6 LB, 8-9 DB

Specialists: 3 - 1 each K, P, LS

 

So for DL, maybe 5 DE and 4 interior dress. For the interior, that's Oliver, Star, and then the other 2 that make it between Phillips, Butler and Zimmer.

 

Barring a trade, Hughes, Addison and Rousseau are locks. My guess is Epenesa is too. That leaves at most 1 spot. Basham is probably not suiting up. If Johnson makes the team, does he dress on game day? 

 

 

 

 

 

[No_Matter_What]

13 hours ago, Rigotz said:

We can easily eliminate a few guys from your list:

 

Addison won't be cut. He is owed $8.1M this year. He counts as an $8.05 dead cap hit if we cut him. Solid vet.

Jerry Hughes is our best pass rusher. Zero chance he gets cut.

Groot is a 1st round rookie and has been great. Zero chance.

Epenesa has looked solid and is a 2nd year player on rookie deal. Zero Chance.

Obada is cheap, has looked great, and has positional flexibility for $1.5M. He won't be cut.

Basham is a 2nd round rookie and can play DT and DE, which is valuable. He won't be cut, but might not dress.

 

That leaves 2 options:

- Cut Johnson, who is a great special teamer and decent depth

- Keep 7 guys, two of which can play inside and out. I think it will be this one.

I am very close to agreeing with you (in terms of how unlikely those first five options are), but apparently 40% (72/180) of voters right now think that at least one of these options cannot be easily removed.

 

And I think it can be easily argued that Johnson stays since he is core special teamer and also that there is zero chance we will keep 7 DEs. Maybe like you said keeping 10 DL overall including these 7 could be an option.

 

However, I think they will prefer keeping Star, Ed, Zimmer and Phillips which will exclude this scenario.

 

Therefore my call is still trading Obada for 6th or something, even though I wouldn't like it.

[Matt_In_NH]

If everyone is healthy I would see a trade or they keep them all somehow.

[Victory Formation]

If it was me, I’d cut/trade Addison. Keep Hughes as our veteran/leader type presence on defense. Daryl Johnson is probably the weakest link, not Basham, but Johnson is a very good STs player and he is also a quality backup lineman. I do think there’s a chance that he develops into a quality rotational guy. If the Bills cut him, I think they’ll regret it down the line.
 

Ultimately I think we need to see a youth movement along the DL. Groot, Epenesa, Basham, Obada and Johnson are our future. Even without Hughes and Addison in the game, the Bills DL looked dominant and deep all along that entire DL through all 4 quarters in the game. So why not deal Addison for picks? It seems like the transition this year for our younger players will be effortles, so why hang onto older vets who cost more and will not provide as much juice? 

 

[NewEra]

I hope that we cut Addison

 

i think that we’re going to cut Johnson or keep 7 DE’s

[Victory Formation]

12 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

Kick Basham in the shin reall hard and put him in pup  lol

You do realize that Jerry is 33 and Mario will be 34 next month, right? 

[BADOLBILZ]

15 hours ago, MJS said:

Bad take. The bottom roster guys do not get playing time on offense or defense, so guys who are actually good at special teams are far more valuable with guys who are those bottom roster guys.

 

Should we keep a guy who will get like 10 snaps on offense or defense and sucks at special teams, or a guy who gets slightly worse 10 snaps on offense or defense but rocks at special teams?

 

This is just simple value logic. The potential value for your team is significantly higher for the guys who are good at special teams, because their snaps on offense and defense will be extremely limited regardless.

 

And, btw, every team takes this approach. Not just McDermott.

 

 

Fundamentally flawed take..........the bottom of the roster DL for the Bills don't play an "extremely limited" amount of snaps.

 

Darryl Johnson has been the biggest liability in the front 7 on D during his two years of development but he was still needed for 22% of the snaps in 2019 and 21% in 2020.

 

I'd also add that going into a 17 game regular season.........the bottom of the roster guys likely need to be more versatile than in the past.........smart teams will find a way to ration out snaps so that their starters still take the same amount of snaps that they had taken in 16 game seasons........ideally the extra 6% of snaps will all go to reserves.

 

Special teams will continue to be important but there are no touchbacks, fair catches and punts out of bounds on offense and defense...........you can work around shortcomings on special teams.

 

 

[MJS]

7 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Fundamentally flawed take..........the bottom of the roster DL for the Bills don't play an "extremely limited" amount of snaps.

 

Darryl Johnson has been the biggest liability in the front 7 on D during his two years of development but he was still needed for 22% of the snaps in 2019 and 21% in 2020.

 

I'd also add that going into a 17 game regular season.........the bottom of the roster guys likely need to be more versatile than in the past.........smart teams will find a way to ration out snaps so that their starters still take the same amount of snaps that they had taken in 16 game seasons........ideally the extra 6% of snaps will all go to reserves.

 

Special teams will continue to be important but there are no touchbacks, fair catches and punts out of bounds on offense and defense...........you can work around shortcomings on special teams.

Only 5 DE's got significant playing time and Johnson was one of those. So if you aren't a top 5 DE on the team, you need to be really good at special teams.

 

People are advocating to keep 7 DE's. That means two might not play hardly at all if we do keep that many.

 

BTW, I voted for Johnson to be the odd man out. I have not been talking about Johnson at all. I've been responding to people saying that McDermott has an addiction to special teamers that he needs to overcome. Never did I say we need to keep Johnson.

[Back2Buff]

IMO, who plays at the end of meaningless preseason games says a lot.

 

Obada was in there right till the end.  

[RoyBatty is alive]

17 hours ago, Rigotz said:

We can easily eliminate a few guys from your list:

 

Addison won't be cut. He is owed $8.1M this year. He counts as an $8.05 dead cap hit if we cut him. Solid vet.

Jerry Hughes is our best pass rusher. Zero chance he gets cut.

Groot is a 1st round rookie and has been great. Zero chance.

Epenesa has looked solid and is a 2nd year player on rookie deal. Zero Chance.

Obada is cheap, has looked great, and has positional flexibility for $1.5M. He won't be cut.

Basham is a 2nd round rookie and can play DT and DE, which is valuable. He won't be cut, but might not dress.

 

That leaves 2 options:

- Cut Johnson, who is a great special teamer and decent depth

- Keep 7 guys, two of which can play inside and out. I think it will be this one.

Cut,  probably not but traded?

[buffaloboyinATL]

17 hours ago, Captain_Quint said:

You can still protect up to 4 per week on the PS this year again (I thought). 

Yeah, but you still have to get them onto the practice squad before you can protect them, correct?  He would get picked up before he ever made our PS.

[Putin]

if we are to let go Jerry or Mario then we need to replace them/him  with a  proven vet , 

[T master]

Personal opinion they should keep 1 vet being Hughes and keep the younger players this team is looking to the future so keep getting younger and Hughes can be the lone teacher of how to be a really good football player at their position ...

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, MJS said:

Only 5 DE's got significant playing time and Johnson was one of those. So if you aren't a top 5 DE on the team, you need to be really good at special teams.

 

People are advocating to keep 7 DE's. That means two might not play hardly at all if we do keep that many.

 

BTW, I voted for Johnson to be the odd man out. I have not been talking about Johnson at all. I've been responding to people saying that McDermott has an addiction to special teamers that he needs to overcome. Never did I say we need to keep Johnson.

 

 

It makes sense to be heavy on DE's in today's game and moreso if some of them can move inside to rush the passer as well.

 

You could have picked up a Snacks Harrison to be a 1 tech off the street last season and he might come in and play like a good starter...........there will be pluggers on the street or unprotected on practice squads this season as well...........but it's much less likely you will find a pass rusher of ANY value there.

 

Part of roster construction has to be the realization that there are positions where supply exceeds demand and you can afford to run light at those positions because you can stock them with serviceable players on the PS............backup DT's, RB's, safeties and even WR's should be those positions this season........so perhaps the numbers end up lighter there.

 

There is also the possibility that the Bills could cut make an arrangement to cut Mario Addison and put him on the PS.    His salary is mostly guaranteed either way.........so maybe he basically stays on the team via the PS and then is there to fill-in for injury and hopefully be fresh for late season or playoff use.   Meanwhile a Bam Johnson could be active every week so they have that impact on ST as well as to eat up some snaps at DE.   

[Albany,n.y.]

If you can get Hughes to agree to re-sign, you cut him at 53, then you can IR someone on the recall IR once you have the 53, then re-sign Hughes.  Veterans are not subject to waivers & can get cut & re-signed to give a team short term roster relief.  The Bils have done this before.  The 1st time they did it was with Steve Tasker in the regular season many years ago.  

[Mountain Man]

20 hours ago, Captain_Quint said:

You can still protect up to 4 per week on the PS this year again (I thought). 

Only if they get, which he wouldn't. He'd be claimed by 31 teams on waivers

[Ethan in Cleveland]

21 hours ago, Rigotz said:

We can easily eliminate a few guys from your list:

 

Addison won't be cut. He is owed $8.1M this year. He counts as an $8.05 dead cap hit if we cut him. Solid vet.

Jerry Hughes is our best pass rusher. Zero chance he gets cut.

Groot is a 1st round rookie and has been great. Zero chance.

Epenesa has looked solid and is a 2nd year player on rookie deal. Zero Chance.

Obada is cheap, has looked great, and has positional flexibility for $1.5M. He won't be cut.

Basham is a 2nd round rookie and can play DT and DE, which is valuable. He won't be cut, but might not dress.

 

That leaves 2 options:

- Cut Johnson, who is a great special teamer and decent depth

- Keep 7 guys, two of which can play inside and out. I think it will be this one.

They don't need depth at DE. They have it now with the three draft picks the last two years and Obada.  Johnson can't play DT like Basham probably will on some downs.  The LB depth is much better this year and they can find a LB or WR to take his spot on special teams.  Johnson is gone for sure.  Frazier might be talking him up to see if Beane can trade him for a late round pick.  Johnson has 2 sacks in two seasons. Obada had 5.5 last year alone.  

[RoyBatty is alive]

This is from Bobby Greco of the FN Draft Bible, fwiw, rookies that will stand out:

 

Defense

Carlos "Boogie" Basham, DE, Buffalo:

This was a difficult choice between Basham and Bill's first-round pick Gregory Rousseau, but Basham played in 2020 and was the most complete pass rusher in the draft. Just turn on the tape, and Boogie will jump off the screen. He is just disruptive on every play, with the perfect combination of power and speed. Basham has a ton of power when rushing the passer, but once he sees a lineman get ready for a power move, he switches it up and runs right past the lineman. It's going to be a lot of fun to watch what Basham and Rousseau can do in Buffalo and for years to come.

[SCBills]

6 hours ago, MJS said:

Only 5 DE's got significant playing time and Johnson was one of those. So if you aren't a top 5 DE on the team, you need to be really good at special teams.

 

People are advocating to keep 7 DE's. That means two might not play hardly at all if we do keep that many.

 

BTW, I voted for Johnson to be the odd man out. I have not been talking about Johnson at all. I've been responding to people saying that McDermott has an addiction to special teamers that he needs to overcome. Never did I say we need to keep Johnson.

I think the fact that multiple DE’s on this team can kick inside on passing downs changes the equation.  
 

Also, Jerry and/or Mario likely aren’t here next year.  Obada is on a one year deal.  If we cut Johnson, that leaves us with 3 young DE’s under contract for next year.  Not the worst thing in the world if Johnson isn’t in their long term plans, but may play into their thinking. 
 

 

Edited August 17, 2021 by SCBills

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, NewEra said:

I hope that we cut Addison

 

i think that we’re going to cut Johnson or keep 7 DE’s

I would absolutely lose no sleep if either Daryl or Mario get cut. But I do understand Addison has that big dead cap hit and DJ is decent on ST. All the others I keep. This will probably be Jerry's last year anyway.