Eagles submit rules change to onside kick

[Cheektowaga Chad]

If its only 4th and 15 you need to put a cap on the amount of times a team can use it in a game

 

[NewEra]

14 minutes ago, PetermansRedemption said:

I’m a big fan of this rule. While winning the game in the final minute shouldn’t be likely, it also should be impossible. Id also argue there’s far more luck than skill involved in the current onside kick format. Changing it to 4th and 15 shifts the needle closer to skill. 

But the reason of the rule would be to make it less impossible than an onside kick, not more. 4th and 25 and you might as well keep the current format. They didn’t arbitrarily pull the 15 yards out of thin air. It has very similar conversion percentages of the old onside kick I believe. 

I maintain my stance that 15 yards is too easy.  Start it off at 25 and see how it goes.  If no one attempts it and success is nil, than lower it 5 yards.  15 is too easy and changes the game drastically imo

[BillsShredder83]

I haaaate this! Glad the general consensus is the same here

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, eball said:

 

A contrarian thought: the onside kick is available throughout the game, not just at the end. Remember the Saints fooling Indy in the Super Bowl? Teams just don’t use it because it’s risky. What if the 4th and 15 rule is adopted and a good team (like the Bills) scores early and then uses this to really put pressure on an opponent? Sounds interesting. 

They have minimized it because it causes more injuries than any other play in the league.

[without a drought]

I say sure, why not, except they should start on their own 10.

 

While we're at it they should change FGs to

 

1 point for FGs 33 yards and under, same as an extra point.

2 points for FGs 34 -44 yards

3 points for FGs 45 -55 yards

4 points for FGs 56+ yards

 

And all TDs over 50 yards are worth 7 points

 

After a TD you can go for the extra point, 2 point conversion or the 3 point conversion from the 15

 

And last but not least, safeties are now worth 3 points

[Beerball]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

What about street basketball rules? Make it take it.

 

How about if your score a TD and 2 point conversion you keep ball. At least that would be exciting. No game would be over. Lol. 

That sounds good, but is it really? Do you want a game of chance (that's where this is going) or a game of skill?

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

If anything go back to the old rules for onside kick. 

 

 

In terms of likelihood of a game turnaround and being better in synch with the spirit of the game, this would be best.

 

Don't see it happening, though. They'd have legit safety concerns.

[Nextmanup]

9 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I just don't like this rule. How about a 100 yard dash. Get your fastest guy up. Winner gets the ball on their own 20.

 

 

Skills contests to help decide team sports are a bad idea.

 

 

[Thurman#1]

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

Awful rule.  If they were to give the option of an offensive play, I feel it should be 4th and 25 at least, if not more.

 

 

The whole reason people hate the new onside kick rule is that it nearly eliminates suspense. They are converted so very infrequently that fans don't worry if the other team is trying one.

 

Apparently the new conversion rate is slightly less than 10%.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/risky-business/2020/risky-business-week-12-onside-kicks

 

... whereas rates under the old rules were closer to 13%. That's the sweet spot, IMO.

Kicking teams historically recovered onside kicks between 15% and 20% of the time in a given season. In 2018, in part to changes on the kickoff play, that number dropped below 10%.
 

https://operations.nfl.com/gameday/analytics/stats-articles/why-fourth-and-15-from-the-25-insight-into-the-nfl-s-experiment-with-an-onside-kick-alternative/

 

And I think 4th and 25 would probably have a conversion rate even lower than the new onside kick rule that people find unsatisfactory because conversions are so infrequent nobody worries about them.

 

I do think maybe you're right that 4th and 15 might be a bit easy. 4th and 17, maybe? 18? Something along those lines might be better, IMO. A fifteen yard penalty would result in a conversion, and that's probably not a good idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 4, 2021 by Thurman#1

[NewEra]

19 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The whole reason people hate the new onside kick rule is that it nearly eliminates suspense. They are converted so very infrequently that fans don't worry if the other team is trying one.

 

Apparently the new conversion rate is slightly less than 10%.

 

https://www.footballoutsiders.com/risky-business/2020/risky-business-week-12-onside-kicks

 

... whereas rates under the old rules were closer to 13%. That's the sweet spot, IMO.

Kicking teams historically recovered onside kicks between 15% and 20% of the time in a given season. In 2018, in part to changes on the kickoff play, that number dropped below 10%.
 

https://operations.nfl.com/gameday/analytics/stats-articles/why-fourth-and-15-from-the-25-insight-into-the-nfl-s-experiment-with-an-onside-kick-alternative/

 

And I think 4th and 25 would probably have a conversion rate even lower than the new onside kick rule that people find unsatisfactory because conversions are so infrequent nobody worries about them.

 

I do think maybe you're right that 4th and 15 might be a bit easy. 4th and 17, maybe? 18? Something along those lines might be better, IMO. A fifteen yard penalty would result in a conversion, and that's probably not a good idea.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Yeah, maybe 4th and 25 is a stretch.  Maybe start at 20 and see how it goes?  I’d be worried that the best offenses would be trying it every kickoff. If they could  convert 30%.  
 

From my eye, it seemed like we were pretty successful on 3rd and longs last year, so the change would probably benefit us.  Although it seemed we were pretty terrible at stopping 3rd and long for a stretch in 2020.  

 

 

[machine gun kelly]

10 hours ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Rock paper scissors?  I will leave out lizard and Spock since the zebras would #*¥! that up.

What the fweak is that?

 

All Hail Sam Cass!
 

Hail Sam Cass!

 

Sorry Ridge, that is one of my funnier scenes from the Big Bang.  Couldn’t help myself.

 

As far as the idea, it’s stupid (IMO).  Even if on sides mostly fail, it’s one of the fun things about the game.  Talk about the brass Sean Payton had doing that in the SB against the Colts.  How boring is 4th and 15?
 

There are a bunch of dumb rules changes proposed every year and most are shot down.  I seriously doubt this one makes it.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

How about this idea. I think it's perfect. 

 

There are 2 options for 2 point conversion. Attempt from the 2, if you make it then kickoff as normal where you can attempt an onside kick. 

 

The 2nd option would be an attempt from 15. If you convert the attempt from the 15 you get the ball back on your own 25 yard line. 

 

Its perfect.

[Draconator]

[TBBills]

14 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Would be great for Bills even though our kicker can also execute an onside kick 

No thanks this could come back to kick us in the ass.

[CSBill]

14 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

And just think about how often teams will get the benefit of a bs pass interference call as well.  

 

That, may be the best argument against it.

[DCOrange]

This proposal is an easy yes from me just like it's been every other time it's been proposed.

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

16 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

And just think about how often teams will get the benefit of a bs pass interference call as well.  

Good lord.  With the inevitable reviews, the game becomes like the last two minutes of a close game in collegiate basketball.  Geologic ages pass. 😴

[Punching Bag]

17 hours ago, Logic said:

I’m fine with 4th and 20.

 

NFL passing offenses are too good these days for 4th and 15 to be difficult enough.

 

And Zebras are too lenient on some teams and not others.

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Doc]

If safety is the concern with the old rules, just keep the onside kick the way it is now.  There's no rule that says you have to have a certain percentage chance of recovering it.  Do a better job during the first 58 or so minutes of a game.

[dollars 2 donuts]

Honestly, it has gotten silly recently, but since the kicking team can't get a running start, I would like to see an onside kick rule change  wherein THE RECEIVING TEAM CAN'T JUMP THE TEN YARDS.  

 

If your feet are just past the ten yards, then fine for you to jump or hope on the ball when it gets close.

 

Caveat:  you can go past the 10 yards mark if you are blocking, but you cannot go after the ball.

Edited March 4, 2021 by dollars 2 donuts

[buffaloboyinATL]

2 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

And Zebras are too lenient on some teams and not others.

If you want to make it really interesting, make it where there are no defensive penalties called after the snap on that 4th and 15th play. Make teams really earn that first down!

 

(I specified after the snap because you can’t allow teams to jump Offside, but just imagine jumping up to catch a 20 yard pass knowing you can be held or hit before it gets there. Now that could be fun)

[Punching Bag]

3 minutes ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

If you want to make it really interesting, make it where there are no defensive penalties called after the snap on that 4th and 15th play. Make teams really earn that first down!

 

You need SOME penalties. I know not all DCs will be like Gregg Williams and have players deliberately hurt people but some players play dirty already and this will give them license to maim.   Unnecessary roughness is necessary.

[buffaloboyinATL]

2 minutes ago, Limeaid said:

 

You need SOME penalties. I know not all DCs will be like Gregg Williams and have players deliberately hurt people but some players play dirty already and this will give them license to maim.   Unnecessary roughness is necessary.

Ok, fair enough. Blatant unnecessary roughness can be called.  The problem is, the more penalties you add to the mix, the more chances you are granting for a potential “free” first down. By the way, this is largely for entertainment purposes only, I doubt the NFL would officiate that play any differently. 

[TheFunPolice]

20 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Would be great for Bills even though our kicker can also execute an onside kick 

 

that's one ticky tack PI flag from Brady getting a 1st and 10. the other team would never see the ball the entire game!

 

[billsfan89]

I don't hate the idea of trying to make an onsides kick possible as I think the new kickoff rules have made a rare but possible chance to get the ball back under the new kick off rules has become very very rare to the point where it is nearly impossible. I am not sure if a 4th and 15 or 4th and X yards to go conversion is the solution either. I used to be in favor of a 4th and 20 conversion but I think a better compromise would be to change the kickoff rules for the last 5 minutes of a game. Allowing the old kickoff rules for 5 minutes would take the current .5% conversion rates no onside kicks and kick it back up to the 4-5% rate that it used to be. With that rate you at least have a chance to get the ball back.

[Royale with Cheese]

I can't imagine the feeling of losing a game because the 4th and 15, you get a bogus PI or roughing the passer.

 

It should be a low percentage play so I think they should just go to the old format....stop overcomplicating this game.

 

Or we could put a garbage can out there and if the kicker can onside it inside it....you get the ball!

[MAJBobby]

21 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Would be great for Bills even though our kicker can also execute an onside kick 

Only thing that forever will give me pause on this scenario is the NFL Referees.  I can just see a ticky tack or ghost PI call changing the game there, they already do it enough already 

[Boxcar]

This really reminds me of the "runner on second at the start of the inning" in extra innings rule in baseball. Arbitrary and weird.

 

Of course a bad team is the one suggesting this. How about first they fix that horrible rule where fumbling out of bounds in the endzone results in a touchback for the other team.

 

[djp14150]

22 hours ago, coloradobillsfan said:

I don't like the idea.  I think onside kicks should be difficult and converting them a rare occurrence.  I want to see the better team win the game, not allow for more ways for lesser teams to upset them.  My .02 anyway

 

allow the time outs to carry over fora full game. Each team has %6 time outs and north 2 min warnings.

 

allow them to do full onside kicks without any restrictions on formations or the kick off run up...like how it was before. Injuries didn’t occur on onside kicks.

 

im fine with the 4th and long play option from their own 30.

 

thryshoukd follow college rules late. Clock stops after end of play, thrn restarts ehrnref whistles. Thus allows them to set the sticks after first downs.

 

 

[blacklabel]

I don't think I'm a big fan of the 4th and 15 idea. How's that fair to a defense? Maybe the opponent marches down and scores on a 12 play 80 yard drive and then they get the ball right back for the 4th & 15 try? There's gotta be a better idea out there. I'd look at altering the onside kick, I dunno, like maybe the kicking team is allowed one or two gunners to take off as soon as the kicker starts moving, like how kickoffs used to work. 

[BigDingus]

More like 4th & 30, but definitely not 4th & 15.

 

Seriously, onside kicks are supposed to be extremely rare & extremely difficult to pull off. 4th & 15 would be a hell of a lot easier. 

[MrSarcasm]

On 3/4/2021 at 8:32 AM, Doc said:

If safety is the concern with the old rules, just keep the onside kick the way it is now.  There's no rule that says you have to have a certain percentage chance of recovering it.  Do a better job during the first 58 or so minutes of a game.

Yep, the NFL should avoid basketballs 'fouling in the last 2 min of the game' situation. 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

On 3/3/2021 at 3:42 PM, YoloinOhio said:

 

Would be great for Bills even though our kicker can also execute an onside kick 

I propose eschewing the kick, forget the 4th and 15, let’s just saddle up with a Qb toss.  
 

If it goes out of the stadium, first down at opponent 45.  
 

Upper deck, you take the L but get a congratulatory pin.  

 

Lower bowl the other team’s Qb gets to throw a football at your Speedo spot.  
 

We need to be entertained. 

 

 

 

[RiotAct]

On 3/3/2021 at 3:57 PM, NewEra said:

Awful rule.  If they were to give the option of an offensive play, I feel it should be 4th and 25 at least, if not more.

or, split the difference and make it a 4th and 20.

 

”This crucial 4th and 20 is brought to you by MedMen.   Remember MedMen, for all your medical marijuana needs”.