Is The Answer @ DE Already On The Team?

[H2o]

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm going to re-hash it again. Ed is on the light side for a DT playing between 280-290lbs. Yes, I know, so is Aaron Donald. On the interior of the defense Ed gets a ton of double teams and this year they had him playing out of position at the 1-Tech on many occasions. We did see flashes from him as a rookie at the 3-Tech though. I still wonder if he would not be better served, as well as the team by his possible production at the position, by a move to DE? Take a look at his Combine and Pro Day results.

 

 

You know who Ed Oliver's numbers comp to, almost identical, and he weighs about 10lbs more than this person? Myles Garrett. Not saying he is just like Myles Garrett or would immediately put up Myles Garrett numbers at the position, but I think Ed could be a beast playing DE. Hughes isn't getting any younger. Murphy is gone. We're not sure what will happen with Addison. What will Epenesa end up being after a full offseason in the strength and conditioning program? To me this just makes sense. Reggie White was a 290lb defensive end and one of the most fearsome to ever play the game. I think they should give him a look there and see what happens. 

[Nextmanup]

No.

 

[delirious]

I really like the thought of trying Ed at DE too. Like you, I think he has good size for it and think he matches up well. 

[colin]

Normally i'd say you are high!

 

but, i think some of what he does looks a bit like John Randle, do you know how the hand size and arm length compares to Myles?

 

it's a different position, and i don't think oliver is every gonna be what myles was walking off the bus, but maybe!

[hjnick]

can oliver bend like a good Edge rusher needs to do?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

How about a novel thought: take care of the 1TDT thing and let Ed get back to playing 3TDT, his natural position?

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Oliver is 6'1". He is not a DE. Could he get a few DE snaps from time to time? Sure I'd have no issue with that especially if they went with a heavy package of Starr and Harrison at DT.

But he is not an everyday DE.

They need to draft a future DE. Epenesa has the height and I like that they asked him to cut weight.  He should be at worst an upgrade over Murphy and a youngerand probably better version of Addison.

The free agents Beane brought in last year for the DL were mostly awful. Starr coming back will help. Beane needs to cut his losses with Addison, Butler, and Jefferson (are least two of the three). 

[Blokestradamus]

Ed is built nothing like Myles Garrett though. He's considerably shorter and he's giving up about 3.5 inches in arm length, which is a huge difference when you consider leverage.

[TheFunPolice]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

How about a novel thought: take care of the 1TDT thing and let Ed get back to playing 3TDT, his natural position?

 

Not sure what all of these numbers mean, but when it comes to DT my favorite numbers are 3-5-0, as in 350+ pounds.

 

And that's before we get the guy into some Buffalo area establishments!

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

15 minutes ago, TheFunPolice said:

 

Not sure what all of these numbers mean, but when it comes to DT my favorite numbers are 3-5-0, as in 350+ pounds.

 

And that's before we get the guy into some Buffalo area establishments!

 

 

 

See in today's nfl I don't know that you need those guys.  Players on both lines have become more athletic, and those that are 1Ts tend to be quicker than they used to be.  Even pure nose tackles like brandon williams are sub-350 and deceptively athletic.  

[H2o]

31 minutes ago, Blokestradamus said:

Ed is built nothing like Myles Garrett though. He's considerably shorter and he's giving up about 3.5 inches in arm length, which is a huge difference when you consider leverage.

Yeah, they are built different for sure. Ed does have that burst and quick first step though. I also think that OT's would have more trouble with him in space because of the power he plays with and his thick lower build. Like mentioned above, John Randle was 6'1" as was Lorax. I'm not saying move him there full time and that's it, but I would like them to give him an extended look in TC or something just to see how he does. 

[eball]

I'd rather have Edmunds playing EDGE.

[ctk232]

I love these narratives about moving players around - Oliver to DE, Edmunds to DE or OLB - without any consideration of defensive scheme, natural position, or accurate judgment on performance.

 

Fwiw, Oliver graded out exceptionally for 3T and average or above at 1T despite it not being his natural position. I do believe we need to let him settle into a 3T only role and avoid the hybrid approach with him, but any idea of him transitioning to DE would remove his ability and results we see now. Losing Star and relying on the revolving door of Butler/Phillips made us weaker at 1T this year, and forced us to try QJeff and Oliver there more than we should have, two guys who should be nowhere near the 1T role.

 

Edmunds moving to another position has been beaten more than any narrative, and completely ignores our LB assignments and position roles in McD’s defense. Trying him at DE, when most everyone’s biggest complaint is his inability to shed blocks, would be even more maddening for those folks. Let him develop and let’s see where we are with Milano this offseason - there’s little to no difference between their positions in this scheme.

Edited February 4, 2021 by ctk232

[Motorin']

Would we have been better off giving Shaq Lawson the 30 mil we gave to Mario Addison? I don't know how the details matchup, but Miami gave Shaq a 30 mil contract. 

Edited February 4, 2021 by Motorin'

[papazoid]

YES....he would be great at DE.....he is ordinary at DT

 

it's also cheaper to find a replacement  DT than it is to find an EDGE player

[Plano]

quick, someone call Aaron Schobel 

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, Nextmanup said:

No.

 

Thanks for the contribution! Care to elaborate

[Victory Formation]

He would be a quality DE in heavy packages aimed at stopping the run, but probably not as a pass rusher. Goal line situations? Sure. 3rd &1 and 4th & 1? Sure. Clearly he is struggling because we have no 1 tech DTs on the roster, but even then he may not be too good.

[snamsnoops]

13 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Would we have been better off giving Shaq Lawson the 30 mil we gave to Mario Addison? I don't know how the details matchup, but Miami gave Shaq a 30 mil contract. 

It's a lot easier to DUMP Mario A's contract after 1 year. I believe Shaq had a lot more guaranteed and it would have cost more to dump him. So the contracts were a little different...... I don't think either were worth 30 mil.... So maybe it was wiser to let Shaq go....?

[BADOLBILZ]

22 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

Would we have been better off giving Shaq Lawson the 30 mil we gave to Mario Addison? I don't know how the details matchup, but Miami gave Shaq a 30 mil contract. 

 

 

No.

 

Shaq returned to his "meh" self once he got paid.

 

Addison was a disappointment but he was a one year commitment.............Miami is stuck with Shaq for next year because the dead cap is over $10M to cut him.

 

Addison's dead cap is $4M.........which sucks.........but at least that's $6M in 2021 cap room that could in theory go into year one of a long term deal for a legitimate pass rusher.

 

Ultimately $10M+ DE's that don't move the needle in pass rush like Lawson and Addison aren't a fit for this style of defense.

[Motorin']

9 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

No.

 

Shaq returned to his "meh" self once he got paid.

 

Addison was a disappointment but he was a one year commitment.............Miami is stuck with Shaq for next year because the dead cap is over $10M to cut him.

 

Addison's dead cap is $4M.........which sucks.........but at least that's $6M in 2021 cap room that could in theory go into year one of a long term deal for a legitimate pass rusher.

 

Ultimately $10M+ DE's that don't move the needle in pass rush like Lawson and Addison aren't a fit for this style of defense.

 

Makes sense, I wonder if he would have improved in our system playing on his 5th year option? I think he was a lot stouter on the edge than Addison. Oh well... We definitely need improvement at the position! 

[Brand J]

Ed would be a perfect DE in a 3-4 system, but in a 4-3? Not sure he has the bend and quickness off the edge to beat RTs. He could overpower them, sure, but the only smaller DE I remember creating lots of havoc was Dwight Freeney... and that’s because he was FAST.

[wppete]

No

[NewEra]

Unless Epenesa or Johnson make huge strides this offseason, the answer is no.

 

Ed is best served as 3tech imo.  
 

 

[First Round Bust]

addison versus shaq is a valid argument...add the fact that Addison's two former DCs are the Bills head coach, current D-line coach ( who likley wooda replace Leslie Frazier as our DC he had gotten Texans job)  and therein lies my conspiracy inside a hypothesis wrapped in an opinion...they likely thought several years of 10+ sacks or near there was going to continue...he had the best play on Murray during the Hail Murray...blame the secondary yeah but I say Addison shoulda made that damn play....youth versus age and we lost that one

Edited February 4, 2021 by First Round Bust

[wppete]

Try out Ed Oliver at DE or MLB. 

[Patrick Duffy]

Maybe get lucky and find that Aaron Maybin type juggernaut impact player......

[Hebert19]

3 hours ago, H2o said:

I know this has been discussed before, but I'm going to re-hash it again. Ed is on the light side for a DT playing between 280-290lbs. Yes, I know, so is Aaron Donald. On the interior of the defense Ed gets a ton of double teams and this year they had him playing out of position at the 1-Tech on many occasions. We did see flashes from him as a rookie at the 3-Tech though. I still wonder if he would not be better served, as well as the team by his possible production at the position, by a move to DE? Take a look at his Combine and Pro Day results.

 

 

You know who Ed Oliver's numbers comp to, almost identical, and he weighs about 10lbs more than this person? Myles Garrett. Not saying he is just like Myles Garrett or would immediately put up Myles Garrett numbers at the position, but I think Ed could be a beast playing DE. Hughes isn't getting any younger. Murphy is gone. We're not sure what will happen with Addison. What will Epenesa end up being after a full offseason in the strength and conditioning program? To me this just makes sense. Reggie White was a 290lb defensive end and one of the most fearsome to ever play the game. I think they should give him a look there and see what happens. 

Not true DE but with Star back he can play more his natural role and possibly move outside on early downs.  He will get 5-10 sacks next year regardless i think....especially if we get any consistency across from Jerry. 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

2 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

How about a novel thought: take care of the 1TDT thing and let Ed get back to playing 3TDT, his natural position?

I would love to get one of those big people mover NT/DT’s in this draft and have Ed playing 3TDT. Tedarrell Slaton or Jordan Davis in the 3rd or 4th rd would be great. 
Slaton might push up to the 2nd rd after the combine and I still would love the pick.

[JoPoy88]

Well based on the things I read here our coaches are morons who have around half the starting defensive players in the wrong positions so sure why not throw Ed in that pot too. Seriously 🤦‍♂️

[PrimeTime101]

Oliver just needs that big one tech DT next to him to take up bodies. By doing that its going to make Oliver look better... DE's look better and so on..  trickle domino effect.

[TheFunPolice]

48 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I would love to get one of those big people mover NT/DT’s in this draft and have Ed playing 3TDT. Tedarrell Slaton or Jordan Davis in the 3rd or 4th rd would be great. 
Slaton might push up to the 2nd rd after the combine and I still would love the pick.

 

Slaton would be amazing!

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, JoPoy88 said:

Well based on the things I read here our coaches are morons who have around half the starting defensive players in the wrong positions so sure why not throw Ed in that pot too. Seriously 🤦‍♂️

 

Oh, come now - don't exaggerate. 😜 I think it's just 3 of the starters who are playing the wrong position.

 

The rest are just old and falling off their, or suck, or got paid and suck, or something. 🙄

 

It's totally astounding to me how we managed to win 13 games and advance to the 3rd round of the playoffs, with such moronic coaches and such poor players.

[eball]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

It's totally astounding to me how we managed to win 13 games and advance to the 3rd round of the playoffs, with such moronic coaches and such poor players.

 

Josh Allen is THAT stinking good.

[blacklabel]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

How about a novel thought: take care of the 1TDT thing and let Ed get back to playing 3TDT, his natural position?

 

Yeah, that 1T DT has to be a priority this off-season. I know they expect Lotulelei back but even with him they need to add to that position and let those guys compete for spots. 

[Doc]

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Oliver is 6'1". He is not a DE. Could he get a few DE snaps from time to time? Sure I'd have no issue with that especially if they went with a heavy package of Starr and Harrison at DT.

But he is not an everyday DE.

They need to draft a future DE. Epenesa has the height and I like that they asked him to cut weight.  He should be at worst an upgrade over Murphy and a youngerand probably better version of Addison.

The free agents Beane brought in last year for the DL were mostly awful. Starr coming back will help. Beane needs to cut his losses with Addison, Butler, and Jefferson (are least two of the three). 

 

So was Freeney.  Wouldn't be the craziest idea, but I think that finding a true 1-tech is still the way to go no matter where they play him.

[Not at the table Karlos]

3 hours ago, eball said:

I'd rather have Edmunds playing EDGE.

One of his biggest weaknesses is shedding blockers. 

[The Now Moment]

Tyler Shelvin DT LSU 6’3” 365lbs

 

People want to complain about the linebackers or the ends but it all starts up front with an immovable object that eats up two blockers every play. That relieves the rest of the line including Oliver to get to the QB. The unheralded position allows for linebackers to run more freely. Fix this and Ed will have double digit sacks and be a constant disruptor. He was very good in pass rush, just didn’t get all the way there. 

 

I’m liking the DE options in the early second round. 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, blacklabel said:

 

Yeah, that 1T DT has to be a priority this off-season. I know they expect Lotulelei back but even with him they need to add to that position and let those guys compete for spots. 

 

I thought Harry came on well towards the end of the season.  I saw him more consistently taking on 2 blockers and sometimes making a play or pushing them back.  But he's still not back to where he seemed to be pre-ACL.  Hopefully a full off season of training and conditioning will help.  But we need competition at 1TDT

 

I think we signed Jefferson and Butler to compete with each other for Jordan Phillips spot and possible to compete at DE, not to platoon at 1TDT

 

Jefferson had 3.5 sacks and 10 QB hits in 2019.  But, he was also listed as a DE in 2018 where he had 15 QB hits and 3 sacks - so maybe they thought he could compete there as well.

 

Butler is that big, 6'4" 330 lb guy who had 6 sacks and 8 QB hits last year - and was listed as a DE.  2 QB hits and 0 sacks this season.

 

So the question is, do we think either of them can improve their production if we put them at 3T?

 

There's a paradox on defense where we need to improve, and we can't improve by keeping things the same.  Beane said in his presser that we're "almost at the point where we can resign our own players and draft instead of bringing in FA" but almost only counts in Horseshoes Hand Grenades and Tactical Nukes, as they say.  I don't see Beane doing what us Sofa Spud GMs suggest and gutting the whole DL to create cap $$ (and holes), but it seems to me we badly need an upgrade on DL.

 

Instead we have a pending hole at OLB.

 

The way I see it, we may cut one of the guys we signed, depending upon who we think most of.  Addison was for reals a disappointment. We were expecting 9-11 sacks and 12-15 QB hits out of him and we got half that (5 sacks, 8 hits)

 

I wish someone (one of our media guys) would do a deep dive into the DL the way Cover1 did into the run game.

 

1 minute ago, The Now Moment said:

Tyler Shelvin DT LSU 6’3” 365lbs

 

People want to complain about the linebackers or the ends but it all starts up front with an immovable object that eats up two blockers every play. That relieves the rest of the line including Oliver to get to the QB. The unheralded position allows for linebackers to run more freely. Fix this and Ed will have double digit sacks and be a constant disruptor. He was very good in pass rush, just didn’t get all the way there. 

 

I’m liking the DE options in the early second round.

 

Say more - who do you like at DE?

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

No. We need to go get a pure pass rushing EDGE.