hmsmystic Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 57 minutes ago, TroutDog said: With that being said, the defenses around the NFL were hung out to dry this year with no time to gel. That is why I hate what the NFLPA arguing for not having any preseason work: the play on the field was, definitively, less than what we have come to expect from a defensive standpoint. This doesn't make any sense to me- how were defenses less able to gel than offenses this offseason? I thought the NFL and NFLPA did a remarkable job coming up with a plan and completing the season this year-- personally I thank them for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Just now, Doc said: I think giving Shaq the 5th year option and cutting Murphy is the best hindsight move. But it seems to have worked-out fine They both got essentially 2-year $21M deals, of which neither will probably see the 3rd year. Well cutting Murphy should have been a no brainer without the need for hindsight, he has been bad as a Bill. I said above that Jordan Phillips makes Tremaine Edmunds look like the master of gap discipline (tongue in cheek dig at Tremaine who I do like but he is never gonna be a great run plugger with his lane discipline). Well Trent Murphy makes Jordan Phillips look like he has a PHD in run defense. He is the worst run contain D end I have ever seen play meaningful snaps in Buffalo. Personally I'd have cut Murphy and offered Shaq the contract they gave to Addison with a couple of extra mill guaranteed to get it done. It's different if our other starting DE was not the wrong side of 30 as well but he is. Just think that mistake leaves them needing to do a lot at the position in the next two drafts even after bringing in AJ last year. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 Just now, hmsmystic said: This doesn't make any sense to me- how were defenses less able to gel than offenses this offseason? I thought the NFL and NFLPA did a remarkable job coming up with a plan and completing the season this year-- personally I thank them for it As proof, I would recommend you look at NFL scoring through the first five weeks of the season: it was off the hook. As for their Covid plan, I do not disagree...but what they’re doing should not be the gold standard moving forward, in my opinion, which is what the NFLPA wants (and I suspect the NFL does as well...tons of scoring). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EasternOHBillsFan Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 5 minutes ago, Doc said: It was either Dobbins or Epenesa. I'll take Epenesa. You can find RBs easily. Dobbins is a freak... he could have been our Thurman Thomas. But hey, that's what being a fan is... talking about what we would do LOL 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Well cutting Murphy should have been a no brainer without the need for hindsight, he has been bad as a Bill. I said above that Jordan Phillips makes Tremaine Edmunds look like the master of gap discipline (tongue in cheek dig at Tremaine who I do like but he is never gonna be a great run plugger with his lane discipline). Well Trent Murphy makes Jordan Phillips look like he has a PHD in run defense. He is the worst run contain D end I have ever seen play meaningful snaps in Buffalo. Personally I'd have cut Murphy and offered Shaq the contract they gave to Addison with a couple of extra mill guaranteed to get it done. It's different if our other starting DE was not the wrong side of 30 as well but he is. Just think that mistake leaves them needing to do a lot at the position in the next two drafts even after bringing in AJ last year. I can’t argue any of that save the fact that the cap was/is up in the air next year due to Covid. It went down so far (guessing from many) that it was a concern. For me, there are so many moving parts in these decisions that it’s crazy to think about. We discuss these in a vacuum, typically, around one player, but that effects EVERY other move. Again, appreciate the perspective but I’m not even sure the reality of these decisions is able to be placed on this board without understanding the entire picture coupled with their upcoming moves which none of us have any knowledge of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 minute ago, TroutDog said: I can’t argue any of that save the fact that the cap was/is up in the air next year due to Covid. It went down so far (guessing from many) that it was a concern. For me, there are so many moving parts in these decisions that it’s crazy to think about. We discuss these in a vacuum, typically, around one player, but that effects EVERY other move. Again, appreciate the perspective but I’m not even sure the reality of these decisions is able to be placed on this board without understanding the entire picture coupled with their upcoming moves which none of us have any knowledge of. I think Shaq and Addison is almost an exact either / or unless they cut Mario this offseason which is possible but unlikely IMO. They spent the same amount it would have taken to get Shaq on a similar level but older player. Don't think either of those has much influence on what they do next except Mario does give them a less unpalatable out after this year... so if they take that maybe it doesn't become a direct either / or but if Mario is here in 2021 it was a mistake in my mind, though not a massive one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jamiezzz Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Love me some Beane, but how is Trent Murphy doing? I think every situation, and defense is different. Some fit our scheme, and when they leave, it may not work. Depends on the player, and defensive scheme. I'd bring Phillips back in a heart beat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GymShorts84 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: Big Stuff was Dareus. Some fans just love irreverent clowns like Phillips and Stevie Johnson. One of the worst things about the drought was seeing a generation of fans who only knew losing learn to idolize losers like that who would selfishly put themselves in front of the team with stupid personal foul penalties and bulletin board material etc.. McBeane has done a good job managing a range of personalities but giving dudes like that big money makes it even harder to reign in their antics. Stevie Johnson should not be in this conversation. Losers don’t have 3 1000 yard seasons. His head coaches and defensive talent were the losers in his years. He was a 7th round pick and had a nice career. 1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said: Edited January 5, 2021 by GymShorts84 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 The Bills made a calculation that Quinton Jefferson and Mario Addison in 2020 would be better than Shaq Lawson and Jordan Phillips would be in 2020. I was disappointed in Addison's lackluster sack totals but he was a solid DE who played better than his sack total and Jefferson was a great rotational DT. Shaq has been a positive for Miami but not really that much of a difference maker his contract asked him to be and Jordan Phillips has largely been forgotten in AZ. All in all I think McBeane made a positive calculation about the future values of Shaq and Phillips. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 15 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think Shaq and Addison is almost an exact either / or unless they cut Mario this offseason which is possible but unlikely IMO. They spent the same amount it would have taken to get Shaq on a similar level but older player. Don't think either of those has much influence on what they do next except Mario does give them a less unpalatable out after this year... so if they take that maybe it doesn't become a direct either / or but if Mario is here in 2021 it was a mistake in my mind, though not a massive one. It's not factored into your equation..........but Addison was also a character signing. Shaq, even at his best, was always something of a character compromise. There was a time where they were so thin on defense(and so bad offensively) that they had to have guys like Shaq and Phillips around but they had choices last offseason and they chose wisely, IMO. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: Well cutting Murphy should have been a no brainer without the need for hindsight, he has been bad as a Bill. I said above that Jordan Phillips makes Tremaine Edmunds look like the master of gap discipline (tongue in cheek dig at Tremaine who I do like but he is never gonna be a great run plugger with his lane discipline). Well Trent Murphy makes Jordan Phillips look like he has a PHD in run defense. He is the worst run contain D end I have ever seen play meaningful snaps in Buffalo. Personally I'd have cut Murphy and offered Shaq the contract they gave to Addison with a couple of extra mill guaranteed to get it done. It's different if our other starting DE was not the wrong side of 30 as well but he is. Just think that mistake leaves them needing to do a lot at the position in the next two drafts even after bringing in AJ last year. Cutting Murphy and rolling over more money into 2021 would have made a lot of these tough choices coming up this spring just a bit easier. They could have easily rolled over Murphy's 8 million and used that to resign Feliciano and have some money left over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think Shaq and Addison is almost an exact either / or unless they cut Mario this offseason which is possible but unlikely IMO. They spent the same amount it would have taken to get Shaq on a similar level but older player. Don't think either of those has much influence on what they do next except Mario does give them a less unpalatable out after this year... so if they take that maybe it doesn't become a direct either / or but if Mario is here in 2021 it was a mistake in my mind, though not a massive one. I am ok with your argument here. I will reiterate, however, that none of us know all of the moving parts...or the team ‘fit’. That is the soft stuff that none of us will ever know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 I don't recall any "Beane is an idiot for letting them go" comments. It was more like, "Beane emphasized offense this offseason, and it worked on that side of the ball, but we're seeing the downside on defense." And it took some time for the defense to gel, but I'm glad to see it has. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, nedboy7 said: Some good old ex Bills bashing!! It had been a while. Don’t think it’s bashing. Its more that we made the right choice not offering them a contract. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 minute ago, The Frankish Reich said: I don't recall any "Beane is an idiot for letting them go" comments. It was more like, "Beane emphasized offense this offseason, and it worked on that side of the ball, but we're seeing the downside on defense." And it took some time for the defense to gel, but I'm glad to see it has. I recall, literally, individuals saying Beane and McD should be gone. Just now, Royale with Cheese said: Don’t think it’s bashing. Its more that we made the right choice not offering them a contract. I tried to make this point earlier. Treatment day so thoughts get a little whack-o on this end. 😃 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moulds 808080 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Well I disagree!!! Philips was a great player on the Bills due to our system. I was hoping when he signed that contract he would not be a good fit and we would be able to bring him back at a more realistic pay day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, John from Riverside said: I wasnt sure how Lawson was going to do Jordan Philllips had "pay me so I can dissapear written all over himself to me" Yes he had the sacks.....and I loved his size......but for someone as big as he easy he should be better in run support....you worry about his effort after giving him a Brinks truck full of cash And that is exactly what happned I bet you have not watched more than one Cards game all year and thus your comment on Phillips’ effort levels means less than nothing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BADOLBILZ Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 17 minutes ago, GymShorts84 said: Stevie Johnson should not be in this conversation. Losers don’t have 3 1000 yard seasons. His head coaches and defensive talent were the losers in his years. He was a 7th round pick and had a nice career. Sure they do.........Stevie was a pig in sheeeee-it with this dysfunctional franchise. There have been some doozies over the years..........Moulds quitting in Miami......Phillips back-to-back personal fouls more recently.........many more...........but SJ13 getting an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty in NE after Gailey had pleaded with him not to do his dumb celebrations.......and basically forcing Chan to bench him and the team then collapsing and blowing a big lead..........that might have been the most absurd case of player selfishness in Bills history. But some people loved the irreverence because they think rules are stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Virgil Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 They brought personality to the defense that was missing in the first half of the season. It’s been replaced and elevated since Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 45 minutes ago, GunnerBill said: I think Shaq and Addison is almost an exact either / or unless they cut Mario this offseason which is possible but unlikely IMO. They spent the same amount it would have taken to get Shaq on a similar level but older player. Don't think either of those has much influence on what they do next except Mario does give them a less unpalatable out after this year... so if they take that maybe it doesn't become a direct either / or but if Mario is here in 2021 it was a mistake in my mind, though not a massive one. The Beane school of thought appears to be emphasizing players with acceptable floors. When you acquire a Josh Norman or a Mario Addison or a Quentin Spain or etc etc, you know the kind of player you are getting at worst. Barring a physical cliff, they will be situational and rotational assets. Best case scenario, they steal a starting spot. It’s the kind of team building strategy that helps you build a team without glaring weakness. But it’s a team building strategy that’s becomes much harder to execute once you start paying cornerstones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Giuseppe Tognarelli Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Wasn't Phillips injured most of year? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 There were plenty of fans that agreed with letting them walk. And I can't think of anyone who called him stupid for letting them walk. Yeah, some wanted Beane to keep them, but especially after seeing the contracts that they got, most fans agreed that they were not worth keeping if that was the price tag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TroutDog Posted January 5, 2021 Author Share Posted January 5, 2021 19 minutes ago, MJS said: There were plenty of fans that agreed with letting them walk. And I can't think of anyone who called him stupid for letting them walk. Yeah, some wanted Beane to keep them, but especially after seeing the contracts that they got, most fans agreed that they were not worth keeping if that was the price tag. There have literally been many multiple people here who, during the beginning of the year when out D was poor, that were calling Beane a dolt for letting them walk. If you didn’t see that, no worries...doesn’t change the fact that it took place. I’m not digging through post game posts as I operate on an iPad. That, however, does not change reality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pigpen65 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Addison has been terrible all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zow2 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Beane is a certified NFL guru. I trust everything the man does. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DabillsDaBillsDaBills Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 My problem wasn't with letting Phillips and Lawson walk. They're pretty good role players, but not stars. My problem was trying to replace them with Addison and Butler. Addison has been a pretty big disappointment for a 3 year 30 mil contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 This thread is amazing. Stevie Johnson was a 7th round pick and somehow was able to beat one of the great CBs of his generation on a consistent basis. And he was a loser? First Bill to ever have 3 1000 yard seasons in a row - not Reed or Moulds. Had a 1000 yard season the year after signing his big contract. Hardly took his money and quit. The next season he had EJ Manuel as QB Beane is the same guy that signed a guy that quit at halftime. They all make mistakes. Facts are a terrible thing... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Just Joshin' Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 12 minutes ago, TroutDog said: There have literally been many multiple people here who, during the beginning of the year when out D was poor, that were calling Beane a dolt for letting them walk. If you didn’t see that, no worries...doesn’t change the fact that it took place. I’m not digging through post game posts as I operate on an iPad. That, however, does not change reality. There are many bad takes put forth on the board, need to be sure in your own analysis and not worry about the bad takes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jpsredemption Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 And I would still pass on Josh Norman and AJ Klein and have tried to work something out with Phillips. Just now, Jpsredemption said: And I would still pass on Josh Norman and AJ Klein and have tried to work something out with Phillips. And throw Addison in there as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Malazan Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 52 minutes ago, FireChans said: It’s the kind of team building strategy that helps you build a team without glaring weakness. But it’s a team building strategy that’s becomes much harder to execute once you start paying cornerstones. Is there a "team building strategy" that doesn't become harder when you have to pay cornerstones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 2 hours ago, atlbillsfan1975 said: Beane knows his own players. Literally the only slip up of his is Wyatt Teller. Even that wasn’t a total loss, Beane got a pick back for Teller. That he used in the Diggs trade 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FireChans Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 6 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said: Is there a "team building strategy" that doesn't become harder when you have to pay cornerstones? Haha fair point. But I would say that we have yet to see Beane operate when the belt gets tighter. Spending $30M on a JAG level player like Addison to shore up a spot is a luxury we soon will not be able to afford. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, TroutDog said: I recall, literally, individuals saying Beane and McD should be gone. Likely no one worth listening to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 Can’t keep everyone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hampton Josh fan Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 3 hours ago, TroutDog said: There were many TBD GM’s who commented on Beane’s stupidity to let them both walk. Hmmmmmm. Shaq was non-existent on the field in their last game (literally ZERO stats) and Phillips has a TOTAL of ten tackles, an assist and two sacks. https://www.nfl.com/players/jordan-phillips/stats/career Looking at reality, who was right, Beane or the individuals who called these decisions poor? For me it is fairly clear that Beane was. With that being said, the defenses around the NFL were hung out to dry this year with no time to gel. That is why I hate what the NFLPA arguing for not having any preseason work: the play on the field was, definitively, less than what we have come to expect from a defensive standpoint. Anyway, I digress. Thoughts on letting those two go? Phillips had one good year,got paid and became invisible. Beane knew he wasn't worth the fortune it required. The Jefferson/Butler and Addison replacements were more than adequate. Shaq was hurt the last few weeks but he produced to help them have a turnaround. He wanted a huge contract and Beane felt he could live without him. I can't disagree. All in all our defense is feisty and with the emergence of a fresh Milano, we can control games, especially when we have leads. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
atlbillsfan1975 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 (edited) 25 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: That he used in the Diggs trade Thank you, I was to lazy to look that up. Edited January 5, 2021 by atlbillsfan1975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SageAgainstTheMachine Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 49 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said: This thread is amazing. Stevie Johnson was a 7th round pick and somehow was able to beat one of the great CBs of his generation on a consistent basis. And he was a loser? First Bill to ever have 3 1000 yard seasons in a row - not Reed or Moulds. Had a 1000 yard season the year after signing his big contract. Hardly took his money and quit. The next season he had EJ Manuel as QB Beane is the same guy that signed a guy that quit at halftime. They all make mistakes. Facts are a terrible thing... Stevie wasn't a loser. But he would knowingly commit 15 yard penalties by doing celebrations that entertained him. I'm not sure he would fit in on this current squad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rc2catch Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 I wanted shaq to get his 5th year option picked up, I think he had more room to grow here. I wouldn’t of been ok with what Miami gave him but I would of paid the 5th year. Phillips I was ok leaving. I don’t think he was as good as many believed here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoHuddleKelly12 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 3 hours ago, Don Otreply said: Well, when your GM drafts the Mandalorian as your teams QB, he’s bound to be right more frequently that the fans..., just sayin Go Bills!!! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CaptnCoke11 Posted January 5, 2021 Share Posted January 5, 2021 1 hour ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said: My problem wasn't with letting Phillips and Lawson walk. They're pretty good role players, but not stars. My problem was trying to replace them with Addison and Butler. Addison has been a pretty big disappointment for a 3 year 30 mil contract. It’s really a 1 year deal. They can get out easily after this year which they will Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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