Who is more instrumental in building the Bills?

[NewEra]

25 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Guess I just don’t respond to waste of time questions then very well.  And given the amount of answers saying both, I think the proof is in the replies and the OP is getting their answer.  

I hear ya.  I can’t answer for the Op because I’m not him, but I just think that “both” is the answer that he doesn’t want.....or he would’ve included it.  He most likely didn’t include both because it wasn’t what he was looking for. 
 

The reason I feel that McD is more influential:  he was the bigger influencer in changing the culture and mind set in the locker room.  
 

the problem I have with “both”:  that’s like saying every coach/GM combo has equal influence on a teams success.  I don’t believe that to be true in the least. Considering your bolded statement below, you’re saying that there’s no way to compare the two.  There have been several teams that had great coaching and a bad gm and vice versa. I don’t think in every case, the coach and GM had equal influence.   Who was more influential on the 2016 Kc chiefs, Andy Reid or John Dorsey.? Both?  Because they do different things and can’t be compared linearly, that doesn’t mean that one isn’t more influential.  It means that we have no way to prove it either way.  But that doesn’t mean we don’t have an opinion on the matter. 
 

If you think, the HC and GM have the same influence on building every team, you’re entitled to that opinion. I disagree.  I do agree that there isn’t a science to it and it can’t be proven.

32 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

But I said any poll that doesn’t have both as an option, which “All of the above” Is always an option in a poll like this, is not with discussing.  

And you literally just said that in your reply to me when you said “That doesn’t necessarily mean that one is more influential than the other. Just who WE THINK is.”  

 

So you are acknowledging that clearly both is a viable answer, which is the very thing I took exemption to with this poll.  And you and I both know “both” is the real answer and anything other than that is just splitting hairs to answer an incomplete poll.  We don’t have the same success without Beane and we don’t have the same success without McD.  To quantify who is more important or played a bigger role is not really possible given the roles are completely different.  
 

So I stand by my original answer that both have been equally important to our success.  I do agree, that a HC could make a bigger impact in terms of what he gets out of the roster, but he also won’t get very far either and will have a low ceiling if the roster isn’t good enough.  Is McD capable of winning with a mediocre or worse roster?  Yes, and probably more so than most coaches, and he proved that his first year here.  But ultimately, he won’t get far either with said roster and to take the next step the GM is equally important to the teams success by building a roster that supports the coaches plan, system, scheme, attitude, etc.  

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by NewEra

[Paulus]

Didn't McDermott get Beane hired?

 

I mean, logically the correct answer is McDermott, easily.

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Paulus

[longtimebillsfan]

Bad question.  This is a collective effort.  In the NFL you need both an effective GM to assemble the right players for the system implinented by the head coach and a head coach that can get the most out of the players provided. 

 

We would not have the success we are having without the collaboration of Beane and McDermott. 

[Freddie's Dead]

Both.  It's called McBeane for a reason.

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I think what makes their relationship work is I don't think Beane has an ego.  McDermott tells Beane what he needs and Beane understands it....McDermott trusts him.

 

Beane does the homework and McDermott gives the thumbs up or thumbs down.  

 

Terry Pegula is Don Vito.

Sean McDermott is Sonny Corleone.

Brandon Beane is Tom Hagen.  

 

Don and Sonny don't die in this fictional comparison.  

  

 

Belicheat would be Barzini, Gase would be Tattaglia (a pimp), Whaley is Carlo Rizzi.....

[Just Joshin']

1 hour ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

Do you like horse heads?

Alot of chain restaurants in Horseheads. 

[Freddie's Dead]

2 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

 

Look how they massacred my boy....  I don't want his mother to see him like this, so I need you to use all you powers....

2 hours ago, The Wiz said:

I thought his name was Brian? 

 

 

At least you didn't go with Sean Beane. 

 

That guy always dies. 

 

 

Edited December 11, 2020 by Freddie's Dead

[dpberr]

My answer:  Whoever hires the assistant coaches and coordinators.  If you hire effective teachers and communicators, good results follow.  That's a key difference between the Beane/McDermott Bills and previous Bills teams - they prioritize those skill sets over Xs and Os. 

 

Coordinators and assistant coaches make or break a team.   

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, WhoTom said:

 

Sonny was an arrogant jerk. McDermott is more like Michael, the smart one, except he won't turn evil in the second half of his career.

 

 

Michael is too calm to be McDermott.  Jessica is probably Michael because she will eventually take over.

[longtimebillsfan]

38 minutes ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Both.  It's called McBeane for a reason.

 

Belicheat would be Barzini, Gase would be Tattaglia (a pimp), Whaley is Carlo Rizzi.....

Who is Fredo?

[WhoTom]

2 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Who is Fredo?

 

Rob Ryan

[BuffaloBill]

35 minutes ago, Just Joshin' said:

Alot of chain restaurants in Horseheads. 

 

 

I’ve often wondered why they named a town Horseheads. Usually, you don’t get locales named after body parts or segments. Although, if this was done it could make life more interesting.... I live in Sphincter, NY etc.

[Freddie's Dead]

2 minutes ago, longtimebillsfan said:

Who is Fredo?

 

I take it back, Whaley is Fredo (stabbed FredEx in the back), and I'll go with the previous poster that made Rex Ryan into Carlo Rizzi....

[4_kidd_4]

Well now I want a cannoli....

[BillsPride12]

I think this is one of those rare instances where the credit can equally be split right down the middle.  And not just because they are both doing a great job but because of the way they work together

[ColoradoBills]

5 hours ago, Beerball said:

Who you got, the HC who made it abundantly clear at his first presser that he was in charge or the GM that he hired?  Whichever way you lean this is a good problem to have.

 

The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts.

[Hot Buffalo Wings]

6 hours ago, wjag said:

I went with Beane.  Caveat, there was no choice for both.  This is like picking your left foot over your right foot.  Football is an enterprise and each performs their function in that enterprise.  

Congrats on your 716th post.

[Chandler#81]

7 hours ago, Ya Digg? said:

Why does one need more credit than the other?  Why isn't both a choice?  Sorry, questions like this bother me because we have this need to feed people's egos.  They both do their jobs really well, that's why the team is having so much success

One doesn’t. OP is a rabble-rouser.

[Gonzonzo]

8 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I think what makes their relationship work is I don't think Beane has an ego.  McDermott tells Beane what he needs and Beane understands it....McDermott trusts him.

 

Beane does the homework and McDermott gives the thumbs up or thumbs down.  

 

Terry Pegula is Don Vito.

Sean McDermott is Sonny Corleone.

Brandon Beane is Tom Hagen.  

 

Don and Sonny don't die in this fictional comparison.  

  

hahahahaha.

 

So....Josh is Michael Corleone, the Jets are the Sollozo and Bill Bellichick iscap McCluskey (he kills both)?

[Chandler#81]

4 hours ago, BuffaloBill said:

 

 

I’ve often wondered why they named a town Horseheads. Usually, you don’t get locales named after body parts or segments. Although, if this was done it could make life more interesting.... I live in Sphincter, NY etc.

Dansville, eh? Used to be a quaint town..

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Jumping in late here but it’s McDermott. It doesn’t matter what the cook gives you if your recipe is *****. McD has been a winner since day one, regardless of their talent. They have only gotten better since. 
 

It’s impractical to try and solve answer this as they are undoubtedly intermingled in their success. That being said, if I had to choose at the end of the day, McDermott is getting it done in a measurable way that is just not as tangible as Beanes impact on their success 

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

One doesn’t. OP is a rabble-rouser.

Rabble-rouser. Wow. Thank you for this. I’ve just had a flashback of a belt. 

[Alphadawg7]

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

I hear ya.  I can’t answer for the Op because I’m not him, but I just think that “both” is the answer that he doesn’t want.....or he would’ve included it.  He most likely didn’t include both because it wasn’t what he was looking for. 
 

The reason I feel that McD is more influential:  he was the bigger influencer in changing the culture and mind set in the locker room.  
 

the problem I have with “both”:  that’s like saying every coach/GM combo has equal influence on a teams success.  I don’t believe that to be true in the least. Considering your bolded statement below, you’re saying that there’s no way to compare the two.  There have been several teams that had great coaching and a bad gm and vice versa. I don’t think in every case, the coach and GM had equal influence.   Who was more influential on the 2016 Kc chiefs, Andy Reid or John Dorsey.? Both?  Because they do different things and can’t be compared linearly, that doesn’t mean that one isn’t more influential.  It means that we have no way to prove it either way.  But that doesn’t mean we don’t have an opinion on the matter. 
 

If you think, the HC and GM have the same influence on building every team, you’re entitled to that opinion. I disagree.  I do agree that there isn’t a science to it and it can’t be proven.

 

I already said that a HC has more influence to a degree, and the ceiling in that is low.  Changing the culture is hugely important, but it only gets you so far if the talent and right players aren’t in the locker room. 
 

The question was about getting the Bills to this point.  IMO we are far beyond an “over achieving” team and have a very talented roster that McD is also developing and coaching well. That takes a GM getting the right pieces. 
 

Not every situation is the same.  What if a new HC comes in along with a GM and that team already had a strong roster and had been underachieving?  Well then, clearly the coach would be more impactful as the rosters was largely there and needed a coaching change.

 

But we were a total rebuild both with roster and the cap.  And that is a different animal.  It took both great coaching and a great GM to get to where we are.  And I don’t think Buffalo is where it’s at if you remove either one of Beane or McD and to do so is marginalizing the other which I don’t think is fair.  
 

So still stand by my original answer that both had a huge impact and it’s not really possible to quantify whose was bigger.  We don’t know how much influence McD had over roster decisions, draft picks etc.  What we are told is that they worked as a team every step of the way in shaping this roster, creating the right culture, etc...and again points to both being equally important.

[PrimeTime101]

BOTH  McD Tells GM what he wants specifically and the GM gets it.. I say Both.

[Alphadawg7]

10 hours ago, NewEra said:

I hear ya.  I can’t answer for the Op because I’m not him, but I just think that “both” is the answer that he doesn’t want.....or he would’ve included it.  He most likely didn’t include both because it wasn’t what he was looking for. 
 

The reason I feel that McD is more influential:  he was the bigger influencer in changing the culture and mind set in the locker room.  
 

the problem I have with “both”:  that’s like saying every coach/GM combo has equal influence on a teams success.  I don’t believe that to be true in the least. Considering your bolded statement below, you’re saying that there’s no way to compare the two.  There have been several teams that had great coaching and a bad gm and vice versa. I don’t think in every case, the coach and GM had equal influence.   Who was more influential on the 2016 Kc chiefs, Andy Reid or John Dorsey.? Both?  Because they do different things and can’t be compared linearly, that doesn’t mean that one isn’t more influential.  It means that we have no way to prove it either way.  But that doesn’t mean we don’t have an opinion on the matter. 
 

If you think, the HC and GM have the same influence on building every team, you’re entitled to that opinion. I disagree.  I do agree that there isn’t a science to it and it can’t be proven.

 

NOTE:  I agree maybe my initial response sounded too snarky, so I went back and edited it.  I like the OP @Beerball overall and didn’t mean it to sound snarky.  
 

I just feel like there are plenty of times where Beane doesn’t get enough credit or McD doesn’t get enough credit.  I mean people were talking about firing McD and/or Beane multiple times this year after a loss, even the AZ loss.

 

So when I saw this poll my reaction was more about they both deserve the credit as they were each critical to getting us to where we are today.

[NewEra]

37 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

NOTE:  I agree maybe my initial response sounded too snarky, so I went back and edited it.  I like the OP @Beerball overall and didn’t mean it to sound snarky.  
 

I just feel like there are plenty of times where Beane doesn’t get enough credit or McD doesn’t get enough credit.  I mean people were talking about firing McD and/or Beane multiple times this year after a loss, even the AZ loss.

 

So when I saw this poll my reaction was more about they both deserve the credit as they were each critical to getting us to where we are today.

I feel that they are both loved by Billsmafia.  Certain posters can’t help but be their negative selves.  I’m confidant that both are highly thought of by us, the league and the media.  Don’t fret when some Nancy’s show themselves 

[transient]

 

[SinceThe70s]

I root for two teams that were pretty bad for a long time but turned it around recently. The Bills went with a young unproven coach and GM. The Islanders went with a coach and GM with proven track records. In both cases I feel like there's a shared vision and mutual respect between the two. That's a good place to be and I hope both teams can maintain their upward trajectory with stability at coach and GM. I'm actually most concerned about Lamoriello's age but that's a topic for an Islanders board.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

22 hours ago, wjag said:

I went with Beane.  Caveat, there was no choice for both.  This is like picking your left foot over your right foot.  Football is an enterprise and each performs their function in that enterprise.  

zactly why I didn’t vote one or the other 

 

1 Bring in the right talent ( with HC input)

2 HC has to get the best out of the team 

[Bob in STL]

23 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

I think what makes their relationship work is I don't think Beane has an ego.  McDermott tells Beane what he needs and Beane understands it....McDermott trusts him.

 

Beane does the homework and McDermott gives the thumbs up or thumbs down.  

 

Terry Pegula is Don Vito.

Sean McDermott is Sonny Corleone.

Brandon Beane is Tom Hagen.  

 

Don and Sonny don't die in this fictional comparison.  

  

Can Daboll be Fat Clemenza?   

[Bob in STL]

In this situation they are pretty much equal but I picked Beane as more influential because he is responsible for the bringing in talent.  
 

McD can tell him what he wants and needs but if Beane cannot deliver it then McD is stuck. 
 

Example:

 

McD - “ Hey Beane we need a franchise QB, Tyrod is limited.”  
 

Beane -  “ Agree, I think we have a good shot at Josh Rosen, an all American that played in the PAC 10”.    

[Lfod]

McDermott was in the building first and is obviously the guy that gets the credit or takes the fall. If you can't tell who runs the show I don't know what to tell you. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by Lfod

[Victory Formation]

The 2017 NFL draft was all McDermott.. So Tre Day, Dion Dawkins and Matt Milano were all his choices.. Whaley was pretty much a glorified scout at that time and McDermott was the matter de facto GM.. Think McDermott clearly understands defense at a far greater level than Beane.. So I think as far as our defensive acquisitions goes, McD is caesar.. Also guys like Micah Hyde and Jordan Poyer etc were all McD choices .. As far as offense goes, I think Beane is responsible for Josh Allen, Cole Beasley, John Brown, Stefon Diggs, Gabe Davis, Mitch Morse, Daryl Williams, Cody Ford and Jon Feliciano.. So I think it really depends on the player.. I think these two respect each other greatly and it’s a concerted effort however.. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

God.  I wanna thank the Big Guy! Thank God!

[Royale with Cheese]

52 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

Can Daboll be Fat Clemenza?   

Without a doubt.

The gun will be there.

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Interesting quote below from today's BN article on Beane.  To me the answer to this question is both.   McD needs to understand what the team needs, but Beane needs to figure out how to get it and how to pay for it within the framework they have.  And alot goes into comments below Beane is already thinking about next year, but MCd needs to be on board with changes too and be moving in that direction.  This may be why last two weeks both Kroft and Murphy were inactive.

 

Can we talk about this guy, getting him in more in lineup because we need to develop him because we’re not going to be able to pay this other player? We can talk about the cap and where I see it going in the offseason. Sometimes it’s play a player to see if this guy has it. If he doesn’t, let’s find out now before we go into the offseason.

[GunnerBill]

This is Sean McDermott's ship. I believe he and Beane are aligned, McDermott trusts him and he and Beane have a strong enough relationship that they can disagree and find a resolution. But if it came down to a row and one of them had to win.... and the Pegulas were asked to choose.... Coach McDermott is the captain of the boat. The Bills sail as he commands. 

Edited December 12, 2020 by GunnerBill

[Matt_In_NH]

Which one wanted Allen?

[Buddo]

Why is nobody mentioning the  Pegulas?

 

This isn't about the fact that they bought the Bills. It's about how they have supported McDermott and Beane, with their Assistants, Scouts, FO people etc.etc. All of which doesn't come out of the Cap.

The additional investment in state of the art training and  medical facilities also.

 

Tbh, if Beane hadn't been as successful as he is, then I'm sure that MDermott would have  been retained if Beane was 'let go'. In the future, I believe they will stand or fall together.

[TPS]

It's hard to separate these guys....I think this is a pic of them when they were in Carolina....(Sean still had hair)

[Don Otreply]

The GMs job is the building of the team, albeit with input from his staff, the talent scouts, the HC and the O and D Coordinators. Not necessarily in that order of course. It is on the GM to get player that are in keeping with team needs and the financial parameters of the team. It is a group effort, though in the end, the responsibility falls on the GMs shoulders, so he gets the final call.  That’s how I see it happening in Buffalo. 

[Magox]

I honestly believe it's very 50/50 ish.   I think they share the same wave length but ultimately I have to go with Sean if I had to choose.  Sean was the one who chose Beane, therefore he gets the nod.

 

But what Beane did by unloading all the overpriced "talent" that were all underperforming and that did not fit in to their vision, despite from the teeth gnashing from some of the resident "experts" of this board and frankly from some of the fan base, they did it anyway.

 

And you know what?  They were right and the amateur "experts" were wrong.     They built this team and organization about as good as anyone could have possibly have dreamt.

 

This isn't just a flash in the pan team, this is a strong organization that's future looks very bright moving forward.    What a home run selection with McD who then hit it out of the park with Beane!