Can someone explain why Browns catch wasn’t a TD?

[nkreed]

Just now, StHustle said:

 

Yeah that last block in the back they called on the Raiders was super weak.

You mean the one where a Raider knows he's going to run into a Bills player and spins around?  The one that should still be called, despite this move since it provided advantage to the runner.

[Motor26]

Just now, Ethan in Portland said:

They said something about him going backwards toward the ground. That makes no sense. That was a TD. He had control of the ball and ball broke the plane. Now perhaps if he lost control on going to the ground maybe he doesnt complete the catch.  But he did habe control to the ground.

Will be interesting to see if NFL gives some explanation. 

 

The quick whistle on Carr is terrible. There is no way in real time the ref had blown that play dead. He decided it after the fact. Carr had barely gotten wrapped up when the ball came out. Terrible call by officials.  

But as always there is no agenda. They don't want the Raiders to win because they are in a new market. They don't have a bias against the Bills. They are just bad calls.

The NFL would never say they were wrong. 

[Ray Finkel]

14 minutes ago, CSBill said:

To Words: Al Riveron

He sucks

[Real McClappy]

Just want the Allen INT erased at this phase. if anything it should be a strip fumble before a pick.

 

Brown, was robbed a TD period, we fortunately converted the next play. How messed up would that be if the last play of the game for a win / loss? 

[Kelly the Dog]

5 minutes ago, mattynh said:

I’m a fan

Ha. Good point. I thought for some reason you were criticizing fans for not understanding that call.

[Rochesterfan]

6 minutes ago, Paulus said:

Honestly, I wonder if you can challenge a play that happened the prior quarter. It wasn't mentioned, but what about the half? It was technically the last play, but the 3d quarter was already off the clock. Probably in the rule book, but I wonder how itd work for like the end of a half, too.

 

Doesn’t matter - they can challenge (just as McDermott did) at the start of the 4th as long as no plays have been done.  Should of been a TD.  Bizarre ruling on the field and then a total lack of common sense by replay once again this week.

 

At the end of the half (within 2 minutes) there are no challenges - all challenges are initiated by the upstairs ref.  Does not have any impact.

[Paulus]

Just now, Rochesterfan said:

 

Doesn’t matter - they can challenge (just as McDermott did) at the start of the 4th as long as no plays have been done.  Should of been a TD.  Bizarre ruling on the field and then a total lack of common sense by replay once again this week.

 

At the end of the half (within 2 minutes) there are no challenges - all challenges are initiated by the upstairs ref.  Does not have any impact.

Duh... I spaced that fact.

 

Thanks for the clarification. 

Edited October 5, 2020 by Paulus

[chaccof]

14 minutes ago, nkreed said:

It wasn't called a TD live because of the bobble... It was enough for the ref to say...."wait possession wasn't right away, so I'll go with where he lands.'

But after he gained position and had both feed in bounds, the ball still broke the plane of the goal line and I thought that as soon as the ball breaks the plane the play ends?  Is the plane the front edge of the goal line or the back edge?  I always thought it was the front end, that the goal line is actually inside the end zone.

 

As noted above, I think the drunken ref play of the game theory is as good as any...

[Process]

Brown pretty much summed it up

 

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

5 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Ha. Good point. I thought for some reason you were criticizing fans for not understanding that call.

Honestly I thought there was a judgment call on when possession is established. Two feet and football move.  That was questionable to me.  Which goes to call on field. If it was called a td it would have stayed.  
 

do I think he scored?   Yes I do.  But they are super crazy about not overturning unless it is perfect evidence.  
 

I thought it was a waste of a to.  A second half to which should be treated as gold.   They qb sneaked it in.  Just move on save the to and score the td.  
 

yes. There was some remote chance of something terrible happening by running another play.  But you had to run it anyway. 
 

the going down thing. ....not sure what they were talking about.  

Edited October 5, 2020 by mattynh

[BillsFan130]

26 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

The 

Refs

Suck

 

This pretty much sums it up

[Kenosha2Buffalo]

Cause it's the refs and the bills are playing

[PromoTheRobot]

31 minutes ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

He clearly had possession with the ball breaking the plane of the goal line. 

 

Because the NFL won't give McDermott a challenge win.

Edited October 5, 2020 by PromoTheRobot

[Penfield45]

bc the NFL set such a bad standard on whats a catch and what isn't their own officials don't know anymore. 

[1ManRaid]

Back to back weeks where the broadcast bring in the officiating expert who says the replay is clearly in our favor, but it still goes against us.

 

Beane better have a sternly worded memo to the league tomorrow. 

[Real McClappy]

4 minutes ago, Kenosha2Buffalo said:

Cause it's the refs and the bills are playing

Took so long for the Bills to be able to beat the opposing team and refs. You love to see it!

[scuba guy]

Biggest thing was if you slow it down brown second foot is down and,the ball is over the line worst call was that they spotted the ball outside of the 1 yard line on the next play

[Buffalo Junction]

Let’s be thankful that this team is now good enough that they can win handily despite the refs. 

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

Apparently none of the refs had John Brown on their fantasy team.

[r00tabaga]

Refs are not good at what they do.

 Simple.

[MPT]

34 minutes ago, mattynh said:

You have to decide the moment he established possession.  Two feet, football move etc.  it was close.  Close goes to call on field.  It was not worth the challenge imo.  

 

You don't need to make a football move if you're already in the end zone. Otherwise toe tap catches in the end zone would always be incomplete. 

[fergie's ire]

Though the "football move" going to the ground rules may be stupid, they are there.  So, if a player is falling (or diving) to make a catch...he has to possess the ball through the ground for it to be a catch.  So, if the ball had popped out when Brown hit the ground, it would not have been a catch.  Therefore, though he had control of it....and two feet touched...he didn't officially possess the ball until he hit the ground...which happened outside the end zone.  That's why the announcers were talking about going to the ground and possession.

 

[nkreed]

25 minutes ago, chaccof said:

But after he gained position and had both feed in bounds, the ball still broke the plane of the goal line and I thought that as soon as the ball breaks the plane the play ends?  Is the plane the front edge of the goal line or the back edge?  I always thought it was the front end, that the goal line is actually inside the end zone.

 

As noted above, I think the drunken ref play of the game theory is as good as any...

You are 100% correct of the leading edge (the one closest to the 1 yd line) is the determining factor.  

 

I was just trying to think like a ref in that situation. I wanted to try and figure out a reason for him calling Brown down at the one.

[HardyBoy]

38 minutes ago, Motor26 said:

Lol I remember seeing that and the guy put a hand that barely grazed Milanos back he just ended up whiffing on the tackle.

 

That one I could at least see as being because it was a bad angle for ref and Milano sold it well.

 

The Brown play is the most confusing thing I've seen since the "int" last week. He caught the ball, both feet down, ball across the plane...done. Fine, you want to say he has to make a football move or go through the ground, great, but where the ball was the moment the two feet, or knee or whatever hit when the ball is no longer out of control is where the ball should be. 

 

By this logic, a receiver catching the ball in the back of the endzone and falling out of bounds would be considered and incomplete pass. Genuinely, this was the worst call I've ever seen, probably worse than the "int" from last week.

 

For crying out loud, this gets rid of all toe tapping catches as incomplete passes because they're out of bounds at time of the football move/going through the ground. Riveron seriously needs to go.

Edited October 5, 2020 by HardyBoy

[TroutDog]

I was young when I first heard, “What is a catch?” It all seemed so simple to me and yet the NFL has convoluted it to a ridiculous degree.  
 

Let the fu***** play. 

[MPT]

6 minutes ago, fergie's ire said:

Though the "football move" going to the ground rules may be stupid, they are there.  So, if a player is falling (or diving) to make a catch...he has to possess the ball through the ground for it to be a catch.  So, if the ball had popped out when Brown hit the ground, it would not have been a catch.  Therefore, though he had control of it....and two feet touched...he didn't officially possess the ball until he hit the ground...which happened outside the end zone.  That's why the announcers were talking about going to the ground and possession.

 

 

If that were the case, then any catch made with two feet in the end zone where the player falls out of bounds would be ruled incomplete because the player lands out of bounds. As soon as there is possession with the ball in the end zone, it's a touchdown-- provided the player maintains control through the ground. If he had dropped the ball as he landed, they could call it incomplete. But he didn't.

 

He had two feet, a knee, and the ball in the end zone at the time of possession. Anything that happens after that is meaningless as long as he maintains control.

[Livinginthepast]

It was a clear TD on the first look and on the replay which of course means that it wasn't called a TD on the first look by the goal line official and then not not called a TD by the replay refs in NYC because its the NFL! The Carr fumble was another mystifying call. Clearly it was a fumble. I think the officials tried to squirm out of that one by saying they had blown the whistle before the fumble which if true is just another incompetent call.  Officials also missed a blow to the head on Josh on that play where he hurt his shoulder. Just another day of mediocrity in NFL officiating. Its nice that this years Bills can overcome it. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, Southern Bills Fan said:

He clearly had possession with the ball breaking the plane of the goal line. 

 

No.  I can’t explain.

19 minutes ago, fergie's ire said:

Though the "football move" going to the ground rules may be stupid, they are there.  So, if a player is falling (or diving) to make a catch...he has to possess the ball through the ground for it to be a catch.  So, if the ball had popped out when Brown hit the ground, it would not have been a catch.  Therefore, though he had control of it....and two feet touched...he didn't officially possess the ball until he hit the ground...which happened outside the end zone.  That's why the announcers were talking about going to the ground and possession.

 

 

If that was true, how would any of the toe-tap catches in the corner of the EZ count?

4 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

If that were the case, then any catch made with two feet in the end zone where the player falls out of bounds would be ruled incomplete because the player lands out of bounds. As soon as there is possession with the ball in the end zone, it's a touchdown-- provided the player maintains control through the ground. If he had dropped the ball as he landed, they could call it incomplete. But he didn't.

 

He had two feet, a knee, and the ball in the end zone at the time of possession. Anything that happens after that is meaningless as long as he maintains control.

 

Hopefully the Bills are querying the league about all these calls because they are bogus.

[Doc]

It was a clear touchdown. The explanation they gave was some made up bull####. And Carr fumbled the ball. 

[BobChalmers]

I actually didn't have a huge problem with it - in slow motion you can see the ball coming loose a bit in his hands until after he's back short of the goal line.  It was close, but it was reasonable.

 

NOTHING compared to Josh Allen's interception* last week.

[MJS]

9 minutes ago, BobChalmers said:

I actually didn't have a huge problem with it - in slow motion you can see the ball coming loose a bit in his hands until after he's back short of the goal line.  It was close, but it was reasonable.

 

NOTHING compared to Josh Allen's interception* last week.

I thought it was pretty clear the ball was still in the end zone as he got two hands on the ball and still when he had two feet down, but whatever. It WAS close and I knew we would punch it in regardless.

 

But there's a problem when these things are reviewed and literally everyone watching it, including the network rules experts, disagree with the outcome. That has happened many times this season and that is a bad look for the NFL.

[NoSaint]

1 hour ago, BigdaddyinOrlando said:

I can’t, looked good to me, two feet in and down possession across the line

you have to complete the catch and when going to the ground that includes landing. 
 

we go through a few of these around the league annually and it’s always the same answer.

56 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

You don't need to make a football move if you're already in the end zone. Otherwise toe tap catches in the end zone would always be incomplete. 

but you have to complete the fall. If you bobble going to the ground on the toe tap it’s incomplete. In this case falling back into the field of play he didn’t complete it until out of the end zone. It’s a tough spot and was a close call. 

[NFLBighits]

He established control as his knee touched the goal line= touchdown!

[Dr.Sack]

Right knee down bottom hand had total control on white line = TD. 

[JimBob2232]

i too thought it was a touchdown.  only thing i can think of is that the angle of the camera wasnt straight down the goal line - so couldnt definitively state it was over.  I still think it was...

[MPT]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

you have to complete the catch and when going to the ground that includes landing. 
 

we go through a few of these around the league annually and it’s always the same answer.

but you have to complete the fall. If you bobble going to the ground on the toe tap it’s incomplete. In this case falling back into the field of play he didn’t complete it until out of the end zone. It’s a tough spot and was a close call. 

 

So every toe tap catch in the end zone is actually an incomplete pass because they didn't complete the catch until they fell out of bounds? That's not how it works, but that's how they treated this play. The rules aren't as convoluted as people make them out to be; referees just screw them up sometimes. And sometimes, when a team is really lucky, they screw them up three weeks in a row.

[Coach Tuesday]

Better question is why even have replay?

[NoSaint]

7 minutes ago, MPT said:

 

So every toe tap catch in the end zone is actually an incomplete pass because they didn't complete the catch until they fell out of bounds? That's not how it works, but that's how they treated this play. The rules aren't as convoluted as people make them out to be; referees just screw them up sometimes. And sometimes, when a team is really lucky, they screw them up three weeks in a row.

you accept a bunch of rules being different at the goal line than the sideline 

[MPT]

7 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

Better question is why even have replay?

 

I wonder that too. If an official's call on the field is so immutable that even clear video replay can't correct it, what's even the point?

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

you accept a bunch of rules being different at the goal line than the sideline 

Very true. There seems to be a bunch of contradictory rules in the NFL. What happens if a WR has two feet in bounds in the end zones and possession but the ball is OB and may not be over the end zone?

Edited October 5, 2020 by Kelly the Dog