The fair catch, that wasn't.

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, Rochesterfan said:

I think the issue is that like many rules - they define it during the off season with the videos and training provided to the teams and Referees.

 

They many times allow things that fall outside the exact definition of the rules.  We saw it with the catch rule and PI - sometimes they expand or contract definitions not by changing rules, but by changing emphasis.

 

The kickoffs have been that way on and off this year, but what happened in the playoff game was a further extreme.

 

As to Cody Fords block - that was a big point of emphasis this season.  Offensive players are not supposed to block anyone if they are facing away from the goal they are heading toward.  It is supposed to protect from blindside hits, but even in this case with the guy looking at him - it is still illegal.  
 

I don’t agree with the rule, but it has been called that same way many times this season.

 

I think both rules are having the effect the NFL wants - they just suck for the timing.

Shouldn't they have called the equivalent peelback on Edmunds for Texan's last touchdown then? 

[familykwi]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

They opted to go in favor of the spirit of the rule, rather than the letter, and that's the way it should be. Otherwise, the game becomes unwatchable.

Unfortunately, the spirit of the rule in Ford's case did not come into play.  That was a literal interpretation on a play where the defender saw the block coming, was not "forcibly" contacted and did not even fall down on the play.  That's not the spirit of the blindside block rule.

[pennstate10]

31 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

I'm talking about over the regular season. 99/100 times the refs caught the ball 

 

 

this is 100% wrong.

The refs never catch the ball.

They're old men.  They usually drop it.

[reddogblitz]

1 minute ago, pennstate10 said:

 

this is 100% wrong.

The refs never catch the ball.

They're old men.  They usually drop it.

 

I have seen many kicks where the returner stands there and the ref does nothing til the dude takes a knee as it should be.

 

There aren't many "old men" refereeing NFL games anymore.

 

 

[BullBuchanan]

1 hour ago, familykwi said:

Unfortunately, the spirit of the rule in Ford's case did not come into play.  That was a literal interpretation on a play where the defender saw the block coming, was not "forcibly" contacted and did not even fall down on the play.  That's not the spirit of the blindside block rule.

 

Agreed.

[The Jokeman]

1 hour ago, reddogblitz said:

 

I have seen many kicks where the returner stands there and the ref does nothing til the dude takes a knee as it should be.

 

There aren't many "old men" refereeing NFL games anymore.

 

 

The ref got the call right. The men in black are the ones that reversed it.

[noacls]

22 hours ago, peterpan said:

I've never seen that signal before.  Since when does double fists, arms spread, signal a fair catch/give up???  I'm wondering when that became a legal signal and/or why the call was overturned?!?!?

Is this the 1st game you have ever watched

[GaryPinC]

A couple points I feel worth considering:

 

During live play is the official considering a neutral part of the field of play?

If so, was the play really some kind of forward pass if there was no passing target anywhere near?

 

Also, is a forward fumble/pass entirely inside the end zone possible?  The endzone has no yardage markers and is a special area of the playing field where the goalline and sidelines are the most important aspects.  Is the ball and possession inside or outside of the EZ is how it's treated.

 

[T&C]

Anyone know when the "league" will comment on this? We clearly were *****, no doubt about it.

 

They tried to sweep it under the carpet but when do they address things like this, Tuesday maybe?

[Cheektowaga Chad]

I just started watching HBO's belicheck and saban documentary and in the first few minutes he is complaining about how players use the safety signal (the closed fists) and still bring it out

Edited January 6, 2020 by Cheektowaga Chad

[bbb]

6 hours ago, Rochesterfan said:

 

Correct - the argument was why when it happened to the Bills in the Bills/Jets game it was a Jets TD.

 

Since that game they changed the rule to mirror closer to punts to lessen injury.  
 

Kickoffs now that break the plain of the goal line and touch the ground are considered down once they touch the ground.  
 

That is new compared to the game in the Bills/Jets where the kickoff was considered a live ball.

 

 

 

But, it didn't touch the ground until after it was caught - and then he flipped it.............If that doesn't change things, the rules are even stupider than I thought.  

[T&C]

3 hours ago, GaryPinC said:

A couple points I feel worth considering:

 

During live play is the official considering a neutral part of the field of play?

If so, was the play really some kind of forward pass if there was no passing target anywhere near?

 

Also, is a forward fumble/pass entirely inside the end zone possible?  The endzone has no yardage markers and is a special area of the playing field where the goalline and sidelines are the most important aspects.  Is the ball and possession inside or outside of the EZ is how it's treated.

 

Or, how can there be a line of scrimmage when there isn't one... once the returner touches the ball.

[BuffaloRebound]

I thought the play was correctly reversed, but after watching the ESPN piece with Hasselback, he’s right.  A rule is a rule.  The ref on the field got it right.  You can’t arbitrarily decide not to enforce a rule.  The NFL is a goddamn mess.  Now they change rules real-time depending on the circumstances.  

[ticketssince61]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:35 PM, MJS said:

He gave himself up. Remember the Tee White INT where he ran back into the end zone? They rules that Tre White gave himself up too. Can't have it both ways.

 

On White's INT, he was on the ground

 

Being on the ground or kneeling and making no attempt to advance are the two ways to "give yourself up"

[Rochesterfan]

1 hour ago, bbb said:

 

But, it didn't touch the ground until after it was caught - and then he flipped it.............If that doesn't change things, the rules are even stupider than I thought.  

 

My god - what are you arguing.  Once again (slower for you) - We were discussing the NYJ/BUFF game from years ago and how that would be interpreted with today’s rule.

 

I am not sure how else to explain this.  The discussion you keep quoting was not talking about this play in this game.

 

In this game - the returner caught the ball before hitting the ground - so the ground part has absolutely no bearing on the play.  As I have stated in this thread several times - what I do not know is what/how the safety signal works for this play and how this returner has used in earlier in the game and season.

 

I also want to see other returns - because I think this has happened without the kneel down and not been an issue (just considered a touchback), but it was obvious both officials did not consider it a fair catch - so in that case without additional evidence - I think they should stay with the call on the field.

 

 

[GoBills808]

If someone can find even one example of this happening before would be much appreciated

 

Apparently it happens all the time

[Do The Reich Thing]

I'll get over this game, but I'll honestly be stuck on this call for a long time... It was horrid, atrocious and just flat out unfair. To go against the actual rule book of the NFL and overturn it because of "common sense" is just inexcusable. 

 

Momentum is such a key factor in a game with human nature and if they call that correctly then there is NO WAY the Texans overcome that and comeback. 

 

Ugh... just disgusted at the NFL right now. 

[Turk71]

Has anyone posted a single example of a kick returner catching the kick without signalling fair catch or kneeling, then proceeding to walk forward with the ball and then tossing the ball toward the refs. I have read that it happens all the time from posters on this board. Anyone? Anything?

[BobbyC81]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:33 PM, Returntoglory said:

Horrible call! Either fair catch or take a knee! These putz announcers saying " Common sense" pisses me off! In 50+ years of watching pro football I have NEVER seen a player just stand there and get a free pass like this. HORRIBLE CALL!!!!!!

The ref in the end zone didn’t think the play was dead as he backed away from the ball when the returner tossed it to him.

[4merper4mer]

 

4 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

If someone can find even one example of this happening before would be much appreciated

 

Apparently it happens all the time

 

 

You'll just have to trust them.  They've seen it, they swear.  They don't know who or when, but they've seen it.

Edited January 6, 2020 by 4merper4mer

[BurpleBull]

DEAD BALL RULE --- RULE 7, SECTION 2, ARTICLE 1 OF THE NFL RULEBOOK

 

AN OFFICIAL SHALL DECLARE THE BALL DEAD AND THE DOWN ENDED WHEN A RUNNER DECLARES HIMSELF DOWN BY:

 

FALLING TO THE GROUND, OR KNEELING, AND CLEARLY MAKING NO IMMEDIATE EFFORT TO ADVANCE  

 

 

 

If that's Andre Roberts making the mistake the refs would have given the nation something to laugh at by allowing the rulebook to dictate the play, and who would be able to argue against them?

 

Sad part is that you have Bills fans' agreeing that the Houston returner should not have been penalized for not giving himself as the rulebook requires, much like they agree with the crackback/blindside block called against Cody Ford that took the Bills out of field goal range in OT. Smh  

 

Just calling it by the books, right?  

 

[Jasovon]

Next year, i want the Bills to do this on every kickoff they aren't returning. No kneel, no signal, just throw it towards an official. 

[Kmart128]

 

[jlgarsh]

This is infuriating 

[Mango]

On 1/4/2020 at 8:48 PM, Chaos said:

The ref knew he screwed up. Every Bills player knew he screwed up. Rules are rules. There was no reason to over turn that. 

 

Definitely a mistake by the ref. Later in the game we were punting and the ref wouldn’t move out of the way of somebody trying to pin the ball down at the one. Ref didn’t move and it ended up being a touchback. 

 

Just because the ref screwed up doesn’t mean we got to undo to touchback. 

[BarleyNY]

48 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

Definitely a mistake by the ref. Later in the game we were punting and the ref wouldn’t move out of the way of somebody trying to pin the ball down at the one. Ref didn’t move and it ended up being a touchback. 

 

Just because the ref screwed up doesn’t mean we got to undo to touchback. 

The ability of fans to delude themselves is unreal.  Now you’re adding this pretend slight to the list?  Wow. 

[Rocbillsfan1]

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

If someone can find even one example of this happening before would be much appreciated

 

Apparently it happens all the time

Bunch of trolls on the board apparently making ***** up to make themselves feel better. It literally never happens. 

[TC in St. Louis]

That's absurd.  

 

But so is the call that removed 6 points from the scoreboard the other day.  The refs decided they knew that that kid didn't make a mistake.  He didn't mean to break the rules and cost his team another 6 points.  

 

The guy screwed up.  In life, when you screw up, you pay for it.  Maybe he should have gone to confession on Monday, or apologized to his teammates for being an airhead.  But the rule clearly states that the ball was live and we fell on it and scored.  After the extra point it would be 23-0.

 

When Houston got off a play after the clock expired, the referee realized that Watson MEANT TO call for the snap in time, so he was allowed the extra second to get it done.  

 

It's probability and outcome.  It's "Heaven Can Wait".  

 

When Cody Ford legally blocked that guy, the ref knew that, in Ford's heart he was thinking about committing an infraction, so he decided to penalize him for that.  

 

I'm shocked that they allowed Brady's pick six to count the other night.  It's clear that he did not intend to throw the ball to the Tennessee player, and should have instead been given a 99 yard touchdown pass....because that's what Brady had in his heart when he dropped back and threw it to the wrong team.  

[Ramza86]

I personally wouldnt give the Bills a TD. 

 

But...I also would have called a Delay of game on 3rd and 18 and not thrown a flag for a blindside block.

[nevir]

I used to be a huge football fan, watched all the time for years, but I quit following sports for a while due to some changes in my life.  The last football game I watched before this one was the Pats/Giants Superbowl in 2012.

 

I noticed a Bills/Texans playoff game was on when I had some down time on Saturday, so I figured I'd see what NFL football looks like these days.  Turns out it looks so rigged, I had to search and see if anyone was talking about this game.  I am surprised it isn't a bigger deal; I couldn't believe how fixed this game looked.

 

They spent like 45 minutes waxing poetic about J.J. Watt's pecs and then spent the rest of the game making sure every call in every clutch situation went the Texans' way.  Amongst other things, I saw delays of game not get called, that crap illegal block call at the end, and of course the most blatant screw up I had ever seen in my 25+ years playing and watching football - the non-call of that safety on the kick return.  I was surprised it was called a TD and expected it to be reviewed and changed to a safety (I actually feel like I have seen almost this exact situation in a game back in the 90s), but to pretend like it was somehow a touchback is 100% ridiculous.

 

Quote

They opted to go in favor of the spirit of the rule, rather than the letter, and that's the way it should be. Otherwise, the game becomes unwatchable.

 

Someone said this earlier in the thread and I couldn't disagree more.  There is no such thing as the 'spirit' of a rule, there are just rules.  Some of them have gray areas, but the intent is always to minimize these unclear situations so everyone knows what game they are playing.  Once you start making stuff up as you go along, why should I even watch?  It is not interesting to me to find out who showed up and won a game that neither team knew they were going to be playing - if that was an NFL football game, then that was a safety.  Houston does not get a free pass because one of their players could not be arsed to even read and remember the rules of the game that he is paid truckloads of money to try and maximize his performance in.  That's on them for hiring an idiot to return kicks.

 

Either the NFL is switching to Calvinball rules, or the fix is in, and neither of those things is acceptable in fair competition.  This game was a joke and I will almost certainly never bother trying to watch an NFL game again.

[26TrapDraw]

On 1/4/2020 at 5:19 PM, peterpan said:

I've never seen that signal before.  Since when does double fists, arms spread, signal a fair catch/give up???  I'm wondering when that became a legal signal and/or why the call was overturned?!?!?

Bottom line is we didn't score enough points and we got beat by a team we were better than . Sour grapes at this point is pissin in the breeze .

[BuffaloRebound]

6 minutes ago, BeefCurtns said:

Bottom line is we didn't score enough points and we got beat by a team we were better than . Sour grapes at this point is pissin in the breeze .

 

Its not sour grapes.  It’s what the NFL has become.  You can’t selectively over-rule your own rule book when the Patriots have built a 20 year dynasty exploiting every rule.  Yes, the Bills still should’ve won the game but that’s a completely separate issue.  

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

Belicheat would have brought out the Rule Book and said to the Refs -  He did not take a knee to down the ball ! 

 

Call Roger right now. 

[nucci]

On 1/4/2020 at 8:24 PM, BuffaloBillsGospel said:

Because he clearly gave himself up and that would have been the most horrendous call in the history of the sport, just my opinion though.

The rules say he has to kneel for a touch back. Based on the written rules, that's a TD for the Bills.

13 minutes ago, BeefCurtns said:

Bottom line is we didn't score enough points and we got beat by a team we were better than . Sour grapes at this point is pissin in the breeze .

every call and play affects the game......yes we did lose but bad calls against us contributed....the call on Ford was brutal. We could have kicked the winning FG then. If players and coaches get faulted for mistakes and losing....so should the refs

[26TrapDraw]

4 minutes ago, nucci said:

The rules say he has to kneel for a touch back. Based on the written rules, that's a TD for the Bills.

every call and play affects the game......yes we did lose but bad calls against us contributed....the call on Ford was brutal. We could have kicked the winning FG then. If players and coaches get faulted for mistakes and losing....so should the refs

Maybe so but if we would of scored TDS instead of fgs we'd be getting ready for another playoff game

[thunderingsquid]

46 minutes ago, TC in St. Louis said:

That's absurd.  

 

But so is the call that removed 6 points from the scoreboard the other day.  The refs decided they knew that that kid didn't make a mistake.  He didn't mean to break the rules and cost his team another 6 points.  

 

The guy screwed up.  In life, when you screw up, you pay for it.  Maybe he should have gone to confession on Monday, or apologized to his teammates for being an airhead.  But the rule clearly states that the ball was live and we fell on it and scored.  After the extra point it would be 23-0.

 

When Houston got off a play after the clock expired, the referee realized that Watson MEANT TO call for the snap in time, so he was allowed the extra second to get it done.  

 

It's probability and outcome.  It's "Heaven Can Wait".  

 

When Cody Ford legally blocked that guy, the ref knew that, in Ford's heart he was thinking about committing an infraction, so he decided to penalize him for that.  

 

I'm shocked that they allowed Brady's pick six to count the other night.  It's clear that he did not intend to throw the ball to the Tennessee player, and should have instead been given a 99 yard touchdown pass....because that's what Brady had in his heart when he dropped back and threw it to the wrong team.  

This x 1000

[Shaw66]

2 hours ago, Kmart128 said:

 

There it is.  Thanks.

 

It HAS happened before, and it HAS been officiated correctly.  

 

The continuing incompetence of NFL officials is pretty amazing.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

13 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

There it is.  Thanks.

 

It HAS happened before, and it HAS been officiated correctly.  

 

The continuing incompetence of NFL officials is pretty amazing.

 

BUT the officials who made the point of "intent" were NOT on the field. They were standby Refs who interfered with the Refs ON the field 

 

Edited January 6, 2020 by SlimShady'sGhost

[oldmanfan]

When the play happened, my attitude was that the guy clearly was giving himself up and that it would have been crazy to give us points there.  But having read the rule now, and having listened to a lot of veteran NFL guys commenting on the play (in particular Tim Hasselbeck), I have to say we got hosed there.  The rule is the rule, and you can't just circumvent the rule because you think it makes sense to do so.  That is the path to football anarchy.  Also, I have never before seen the replacement refs come onto the field to reverse a call like that.  The ref on the field should have been the only guy to overturn, and that should only have been in consultation with the league guys in NYC.

 

Do I think it cost us the win?  Who knows - might have completely changed the psyche of the game in either direction.  But with time for reflection it was nonsense.

[Jauronimo]

On 1/4/2020 at 8:17 PM, Bermuda Triangle said:

These refs in the black jackets - are they instructed or authorized to run onto the field and put in their .02 whenever they see fit?  I can't say that I've ever seen that happen before.  And the ref in the EZ danced away from the ball after the returner tossed it in his direction. 

I was screaming about that at the game.  I have never seen that before.