First Time I have been concerned with Josh Allen

[rayray808]

if this is bad Josh (5-1) I canʻt wait to see good Josh

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, DaBillsFanSince1973 said:

why do threads like this or the ridiculous post come after a WIN

 

A

 

*****

 

WIN!!!

 

It is a bit strange.  The board had a very weird vibe last night, it was almost as much work as though we'd lost.

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, Gee, now we have the same "perfect" standard for fans as for our QB.

 

I find Buffalo football fans to be in general among the most educated I encounter. 

I try to talk football with fans of other teams and they look at me as though I'm speaking in tongues.

 

Yeah, we have our boneheads and our chicken littles but what team doesn't?

 

I used to think like this, prior to this season.

 

This season's changed my view, A LOT.

 

[PromoTheRobot]

2 hours ago, JMF2006 said:

Relax the kids played 17 NFL games.

 

You don't need to put 50 up on a team to win and winning like that gets you a lot of hate.

 

I like how Dabol has barely dipped into the playbook and the Bills are still 5-1.

 

Lets save some stuff for down the stretch when things get tougher.

 

THIS!!  Dabol is saving plays for games we need a curve ball.

Edited October 21, 2019 by PromoTheRobot

[Sundancer]

52 minutes ago, LBSeeBallLBGetBall said:

I actually like what they're doing with Allen. I think that how they're developing him will pay dividends down the line. It looks to me like they are trying to rein in his hero ball and turn him into a passer. There will be growing pains but he's young and they're still winning.

 

 

So much exactly this. 

 

Year 1 they let him loose faster than they meant to and let him play loose and free, making mistakes but just seeing what he is at QB. Year 2 is all about making sure he has game management skills and completing a high percentage of passes. 

 

Josh was drafted AS A PROJECT and everyone knew that. 

 

What we know after 18(?) starts:

 

- he is clutch

- he can take over a game with his physical ability

- he can (now) manage a game

- he can be accurate

- he has touch 

- he is learning to control his impulses

- he is a big threat to run

 

Things still in progress:

- downfield accuracy

- hot-read blitzing reaction

 

Most fan bases would be damn happy to have Josh. I sure am!

Edited October 21, 2019 by Sundancer

[DC Tom]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Oh, Gee, now we have the same "perfect" standard for fans as for our QB.

 

 

Don't know about you, but I had a perfect 158.3 fan rating in Week 5.

 

Only about a 95 rating yesterday, though.  Had a bunch of incomplete posts, and two intercepted.  C'est la vie...

[Sundancer]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It is a bit strange.  The board had a very weird vibe last night, it was almost as much work as though we'd lost.

 

 

People don't appreciate that Miami likely played their best game of the season. 

 

That's not necessarily the Bills' fault. Miami, probably because of Fitz, came to play. The Bills played OK and when it mattered, turned it on and won going away. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Sundancer

[LDD]

The only real hole in his game yesterday was the lack of his ability to hit the long ball.  Based on his ability, I fully believe that Josh will develop this accuracy.  He needs about 1000 more practice throws to figure out the correct launch angle on those throws.  He's stuck throwing the ball too flat, looks like he needs more air under it.  Although, part of me wants him just to throw it on a rope 50 yards, which I think he could easily do.  But, it would be a tough ball to catch.  

[Nervous Grandpa]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Or maybe he's not telling you the truth that he's never posted before.

Folks, generally speaking - not cool. 

There are people who run sock puppets here and we recognize it and let it slide, as long as they don't abuse it or misrepresent themselves.

 

Kids these days.  Sock puppets?  Bah!  Back in my day, we didn't even have socks!  We had to post as ourselves!  In the snow, uphill both ways, no shoes, and we LIKED it!  Then we'd go to the nickelodeon for a soda and a Fatty Arbuckle talkie.  Then we fought the Boche in the Great War  ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, Nervous Grandpa said:

 

Kids these days.  Sock puppets?  Bah!  Back in my day, we didn't even have socks!  We had to post as ourselves!  In the snow, uphill both ways, no shoes, and we LIKED it!  Then we'd go to the nickelodeon for a soda and a Fatty Arbuckle talkie.  Then we fought the Boche in the Great War  ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

 

NG! How's the dog these days?

 

[thebandit27]

44 minutes ago, FireChans said:

The one concern I have is Josh’s failure to recognize obvious cover zero and hot route. There’s a question if he is being coached through his mistakes well enough or if he is not responding to the coaching. He saw that same formation 3-4 times vs the Pats, and just watching him, you just knew he was getting sacked.

 

ChanFuego? Is that YOU?

 

34 minutes ago, papazoid said:

Josh Allen is a solid starter

 

he will never be a Top 10 QB

 

Last year it was "he'll never be accurate", now it's "he'll never be top 10". Next year, will it be "yeah, he's top 10, but he'll never be elite"?

 

Stay tuned...

[LDD]

3 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

 

People don't appreciate that Miami likely played their best game of the season. 

 

That's not necessarily the Bills' fault. Miami, probably because of Fitz, came to play. The Bills played OK and when it mattered, turned it on and won going away. 

I think that we had the wrong defensive approach with Fitz.  He's at this worst when there is a closing pocket but a clearly defined pocket, we left too many running, scrambling lanes and did not contain the pocket.  A four man rush that contains and pushes the pocket, hands up, and a flooded zone usually has Fitzy forcing the ball and becoming frustrated.  This does not account for them being able to run it down our throats however, which they did.  

[ColoradoBills]

49 minutes ago, SlimShady'sGhost said:

I asked this (but with so many damn threads to read about the game) 

 

Did Miami back off the heave blitz packages?  

 

I think once that slowed the Blitz or Dabol and  co adjusted the game got much better and fewer drive killing penalties

 

Penalties on the Offensive side of the ball is a problem.  They are not helping themselves with a young QB having so many.

Bills are among the worse teams with offensive penalties and most of the teams around them have played an extra game.

 

I really wish they could get a handle on this.

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, DC Tom said:

 

(Psst.  Let me tell you a secret:  The spread doesn't count.  Only wins and losses.)

Tell that to all the suckers who took Bills -17.

 

21 minutes ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

When you're 5-1 with a bunch of guys who are in their first year playing together, you've overperformed, regardless of how much Vegas thinks you should cover.

 

And let's assume someone grabs Fitzmagic's fumble inside the 10 and runs it in...the Bills cover. Would that have changed your perception of them underperforming since they beat them by 17?

 They wouldn’t cover then, it would have been a push.

[Jay_Fixit]

Is this a real thread?

[Doc]

3 minutes ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Is this a real thread?

 

I'm concerned that it is.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Doc said:

 

I'm concerned that it is.

 

 

[IDBillzFan]

6 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Tell that to all the suckers who took Bills -17.

 

 They wouldn’t cover then, it would have been a push.

 

Oh, well, then, I guess they would have underperformed by half a point instead of 8!  Damn you, Bills! You suck! 

[Seven-N-Nine]

37 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

I'm a little concerned with Jimmy Garrapolo...threw for 108 yds, no TD's and one INT.  They should cut him and start looking for his replacement.

Did you see the weather/field conditions for that game?

[teef]

what the ***** is all this?  

[Philo]

20 minutes ago, Nervous Grandpa said:

 

Kids these days.  Sock puppets?  Bah!  Back in my day, we didn't even have socks!  We had to post as ourselves!  In the snow, uphill both ways, no shoes, and we LIKED it!  Then we'd go to the nickelodeon for a soda and a Fatty Arbuckle talkie.  Then we fought the Boche in the Great War  ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzzzz

 

Did you also tie an onion to your belt?

[DasNootz]

37 minutes ago, colin said:

josh played decently vs miami, i too am wondering where the long ball went.

 

Robert Foster hasn't been on the field - for whatever reason he appears to have been the catalyst for the successful deep ball last season.

[DC Tom]

16 minutes ago, FireChans said:

Tell that to all the suckers who took Bills -17.

 

 

Dear suckers:

 

The spread doesn't count.  Because NFL standings have nothing to do with your gambling.

 

[GimmeSomeProcess]

1 hour ago, Philo said:

Josh has played arguably his most complete and mistake free games the last two weeks and now people are concerned??

Kinda wild right. Who’s doing the exact thing people said he couldn’t do and now, it’s not enough. Just let him develop

[Philo]

Just now, GimmeSomeProcess said:

Kinda wild right. Who’s doing the exact thing people said he couldn’t do and now, it’s not enough. Just let him develop

 

The goalposts have tiny little legs...

[boater]

I have some concern regarding his deep ball accuracy. But he and Daboll will fix that, I'm confident.. maybe not in the next few games but certainly by the end of the season.

 

Context: almost all new WR, new TE, new RB, almost all new OL ... it's by the Grace of God that we're 5-1. I'm happy.

[Magox]

The thread topic is a joke!

[krf139]

1 hour ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

After seeing Josh Allen's first performance in pre-season last year, I started a thread title "For the love of God, just name Josh Allen the starter" (Mods later changed thread title).

 

To me Allen is the most likable guy in the NFL, and the most fun to watch.  I so much want him to succeed.  

 

Yesterday's game troubled me quite a bit.  With two weeks to prepare for the worst team in the NFL, Singletary back,  a upgraded receiving corp including  glue hands Duke Williams and Tyler Kroft active, I expected the offense to be hitting on nearly all cylinders.   

it appears to me now that Allen and Daboll are simply not a good combination.  Daboll seems to be committed to developing Allen to play in the Daboll system rather than developing a system to optimize Allen's considerable physical skills.  At this point I am not sure they will be successful together.  There is a legitimate school of thought to say that there is a proper way to play NFL QB and Allen needs to learn that.    At the same time I think it is legitimate to say that some teams have been successful (Russell Williams) adapting an offense to take advantage of a particular QBs skill set.   I am not sure which is right.  I will say that I think Daboll's offense would work identically well with Jared Goff as our QB, and I think that leaves a lot of Josh Allen's skill set unused. I don't want to turn Allen into Goff.  

Thanks for bringing this up.  It appears whenever someone is critical of Allen on this board, his fervent supporters come out in droves in support of him.  I watch every snap of every game.  Talk about his completion percentage this year all you want - he's not completing balls downfield, doesn't seem to be learning quickly from his mistakes, throws too many INT and frankly, just doesn't look in control of the game like other QBs do.  I am not at all convinced he is "the guy."

[ngbills]

Why was the crowd booing if Josh was playing so wonderfully? Why were his receivers visibly frustrated with him?

 

Come on guys. You can like the Bills. Be excited they are 5-1. Be a fan of Josh Allen. And still think he needs to play better. That is ok. It is called higher expectations. There is some room for he is still young. But there also some mind boggling misses. We all want him to get there. He is just not there yet.

[unclepete]

People saying they aren’t concerned forget this was against the worst secondary in the league. And they were missing starting corners 

[McBean]

Russell Wilson, not Williams.

 

Go to work already and stop tailgating. You’re drunk.

[MJS]

That was one of Allen's better games ...

 

Seems like you just underestimated the Dolphins. They are still an NFL team and aren't going to get blown out every week. They will probably even win a game or two this year.

[thebandit27]

2 minutes ago, krf139 said:

Thanks for bringing this up.  It appears whenever someone is critical of Allen on this board, his fervent supporters come out in droves in support of him.  I watch every snap of every game.  Talk about his completion percentage this year all you want - he's not completing balls downfield, doesn't seem to be learning quickly from his mistakes, throws too many INT and frankly, just doesn't look in control of the game like other QBs do.  I am not at all convinced he is "the guy."

 

Nope.

 

It's brutally-over-the-top criticism that gets lambasted in my experience 

[essential]

I don't get why everyone is crapping on this topic.  Everyone keeps throwing out 5-1, but we very easily could have lost to the Jets, Titans, Bengals, and we were Tre's INT away from yesterdays game getting away from us.  Josh has his moments at times, and his 4th quarter is great, but he needs that 4th quarter because we're down going into the 4th with an incredible defense playing a cake schedule.  We're an average team with a good record.  Josh has me concerned as well.  I'm not losing sleep but i'm not overly confident in him either.  I think he's incredibly likable and I want him to succeed but I think it's too soon to crown him the future.  He still needs to improve a lot, and hopefully we see him put together a full game sooner than later. 

[MJS]

1 hour ago, billsfan1959 said:

Actually, they were not very good yesterday - not by their standards. They gave up way too many long, time consuming drives.

Missing Milano hurt us. Hope he's back next week.

[dakrider]

Bills haven't been in any offensive shootouts nor been down big early that has required the offense to try and score a lot of points quickly.   

A lot of QB's pile up yards in losses.  Bills defense keeps them in most games so the offense is deliberately prodding and time consuming.  

[billspro]

2 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

After seeing Josh Allen's first performance in pre-season last year, I started a thread title "For the love of God, just name Josh Allen the starter" (Mods later changed thread title).

 

To me Allen is the most likable guy in the NFL, and the most fun to watch.  I so much want him to succeed.  

 

Yesterday's game troubled me quite a bit.  With two weeks to prepare for the worst team in the NFL, Singletary back,  a upgraded receiving corp including  glue hands Duke Williams and Tyler Kroft active, I expected the offense to be hitting on nearly all cylinders.   

it appears to me now that Allen and Daboll are simply not a good combination.  Daboll seems to be committed to developing Allen to play in the Daboll system rather than developing a system to optimize Allen's considerable physical skills.  At this point I am not sure they will be successful together.  There is a legitimate school of thought to say that there is a proper way to play NFL QB and Allen needs to learn that.    At the same time I think it is legitimate to say that some teams have been successful (Russell Williams) adapting an offense to take advantage of a particular QBs skill set.   I am not sure which is right.  I will say that I think Daboll's offense would work identically well with Jared Goff as our QB, and I think that leaves a lot of Josh Allen's skill set unused. I don't want to turn Allen into Goff.  

 

Josh was solid yesterday, he didn’t win us the game but he still had a positive impact. The dolphins played hard yesterday, it was a division game. Fitz is still the same player he was when he played here. That was a great performance by him. To be fair Josh still doesn’t have a lot of help on offence. I wouldn’t even say we have a better RB room than the Dolphins. Our WRs are slightly better because of Brown. And Geiseki and Knox are pretty similar. Our oline is better than theirs but is still pretty average. 

[timekills17]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I don't know where to start with this.

 

Of all the games Allen has played, to say this is the first time you're concerned about him or the combination of Daboll and Allen is a total head-scratcher for me.

Not the Jets game where Allen had 2 picks and 2 fumbles in the first half, 1 of each unambiguously a boneheaded play on his part.

Not the Pats game where Allen threw 3 INTs, all of them bone-headed decisions, and decided as Smith put it to "run head first into human beings" and get knocked out; he only completed 46% of his passes for 153 yds and on film, he left quite a few plays on the field.

 

SMH

 

I really ought to merge this as the topic of whether or not Josh Allen will be a successful QB is being flogged thoroughly in several threads, but *cough* I don't want to derail them from such discussion as is taking place, so I'll just leave this out there.

 

While I agree with your premise that this week was probably not the best one to express concerns about the performance, I think you're missing the salient point. 

OP wasn't complaining about Josh's performance as much as how or OC - Daboll - is forcing that performance. His concern is if Daboll is trying to force Josh to be a QB he's not, and losing some of his special ability as he attempts to fit the round QB into the square QB mold. LBSeeBallLBGetB

 

I don't share @PlayoffsPlease's concerns yet, but I can see where he is coming from. My belief is more along @LBSeeBallLBGetBall's take, that the long game here is to have JA be a successful QB whether through his arm in the modified WC offense, through a longer ball game, or through his legs - depending on what the defense gives him. The focus has been on improving his weakness in reading, reacting, and the quick game. The legs are already there. I hope once the short game is up to snuff they'll return to the long ball but I'm optimistic.

[Alphadawg7]

2 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

After seeing Josh Allen's first performance in pre-season last year, I started a thread title "For the love of God, just name Josh Allen the starter" (Mods later changed thread title).

 

To me Allen is the most likable guy in the NFL, and the most fun to watch.  I so much want him to succeed.  

 

Yesterday's game troubled me quite a bit.  With two weeks to prepare for the worst team in the NFL, Singletary back,  a upgraded receiving corp including  glue hands Duke Williams and Tyler Kroft active, I expected the offense to be hitting on nearly all cylinders.   

it appears to me now that Allen and Daboll are simply not a good combination.  Daboll seems to be committed to developing Allen to play in the Daboll system rather than developing a system to optimize Allen's considerable physical skills.  At this point I am not sure they will be successful together.  There is a legitimate school of thought to say that there is a proper way to play NFL QB and Allen needs to learn that.    At the same time I think it is legitimate to say that some teams have been successful (Russell Williams) adapting an offense to take advantage of a particular QBs skill set.   I am not sure which is right.  I will say that I think Daboll's offense would work identically well with Jared Goff as our QB, and I think that leaves a lot of Josh Allen's skill set unused. I don't want to turn Allen into Goff.  

I’m not concerned about Allen’s future, however I am growing concerned with the Daboll/Allen combo myself as well.  And I’ve been a supporter of both, but Daboll this year has been very frustrating way too often.  
 

I look at teams like Baltimore and Seattle as you mentioned, and those schemes are built around the QB to the strengths of the QB.  At times I do feel like Daboll is more trying to fit Allen into his system as opposed to designing a system around Allen.

 

I am still supremely confident in Allen’s future, I’m just gaining more and more skepticism that Daboll is the right fit.  Don’t get me wrong, Daboll has also had some good moments and smart play calls too at times, he isn’t a total train wreck like some of our past OCs were.  But I do wonder if Daboll is going to limit/slow Allen’s growth rather than expedite it.

 

In everyone’s defense, we still need more offensive personnel help too, but we also have reason to be optimistic moving forward that some help is coming.  Kroft just played his first game as a Bill and coming off injury, might take a couple weeks to find a groove and timing.  Knox is promising but has too many drops and mental mistakes to go with a couple of big plays but should get better and easier routes with Kroft back.  Singletary just got back and didn’t see a lot of snaps yet.  Duke just played his second game.  
 

So I do think there is reason to be optimistic still as more of these guys get more time and experience with Allen and give him more weapons to work with at different levels.

[Pokebball]

7 minutes ago, krf139 said:

Thanks for bringing this up.  It appears whenever someone is critical of Allen on this board, his fervent supporters come out in droves in support of him.  I watch every snap of every game.  Talk about his completion percentage this year all you want - he's not completing balls downfield, doesn't seem to be learning quickly from his mistakes, throws too many INT and frankly, just doesn't look in control of the game like other QBs do.  I am not at all convinced he is "the guy."

We've got a pretty standard bell curve on this subject.  10% that can rightfully so be called Josh haters, no matter how well he does.  10% that can rightfully so be called Josh lovers, no matter how poorly he does.  And 80% that are mostly fair, while certainly leaning one way or the other but can at least accept opinions that are adequately supported.

 

Now neither of the posters in the 10% legs of this bell curve believe they are crazy, extreme, whacked out in their opinions.  They believe they are "main stream".  When they get called out they make claims that the opposite 10% come out in droves.  And when the 80% that are truly mainstream tell any of the 10%ers that they are over the top in the love or hate, the 10% try their darndest to group them into the opposite 10%, normally to little avail.