EJ Manuel: What went wrong after year 1?

[Another Fan]

I guess some will argue otherwise but imo Manuel’s first year here wasn’t that bad.  He held his own in the first game of the year against the Patriots, defeated the Ravens (they previously just won the Super Bowl), and looked like a boss in one game against the Jets that year.  It wasn’t until 2014 where it was obvious he really hadn’t developed.

 

Was that attributed to coaches having more film on him, him losing his confidence, or possibly poor coaching here?  I can’t help to make some parallels to EJs first year to Josh’s.  They both missed a few games there rookie years, there’s a good chance this team will win 6 games like that team did, and imo they both showed flashes of what’s to come while still some things to work on.  

 

Just have my fingers crossed Josh will work out.  I mean at one time EJ was capable of these kind of plays:

 

 

[Augie]

Slow eyes???

[Q-baby!]

Can we talk about JP Losman next? 

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

He was a sub 60% completion passer as a rookie who was forced to play to soon.  After the first season it was deemed he didn’t have any talent around him so Buffalo in incorrectly traded up for Sammy Watkins thinking that a WR would help his completion percentage.

 

Little did Buffalo realize that the QB makes the Receivers not the other way around.

 

good thing things are no where near that in Buffalo today.

 

...

...

? ???

Edited December 27, 2018 by RalphWilson'sNewWar

[Doc Brown]

He looked in the mirror and realized he was EJ Manuel.  It was a 42 year old pass anyway there youtube. 

[Freddie's Dead]

Doug Maroon.

[wppete]

He was flat out a bad QB. But seemed like a good guy. 

[LeGOATski]

Among other things, there was definitely a confidence issue. I remember the media trashing on EJ so hard, even as a rookie. After one PC, as EJ was leaving the room, a reporter asked something along the lines of 'Should the Bills draft another QB right away??' Like, some went out of their way to trash him. It was pathetic.

[DBilz2500]

Couldn’t scan the field, terrible accuracy(don’t care what stats say he threw tons of checkdowns to boost %), not a natural thrower, terrible pocket presence. Allen, with much less to work with, already looks light years ahead of EJ after 1st year using the eye test 

[Dr.Sack]

EJ’s first season is about equal statistically to Allen’s. The question is what happens in year 2?

[Chandler#81]

29 minutes ago, Dr.Sack said:

EJ’s first season is about equal statistically to Allen’s. The question is what happens in year 2?

 

This is a cop out post and you know it. The differences are night & day. Stats are for -well, you know..

[QCity]

2 hours ago, Augie said:

Slow eyes???

 

[LikeIGiveADarn]

EJ  did like a lot of rookie QBs and took advantage of the league's lack of tape on him to put together a halfway decent season, but the signs were there that it wouldn't last. He had terrible accuracy, and bad pocket presence. Bills fans were just fooling themselves hoping that the passes that hit receiver's feet could be fixed.

 

Allen has all the physical tools to be a star QB, he just needs time to learn how to read NFL defenses, not play hero ball and take the yardage given, and WRs who catch the damn ball...

[Dr.Sack]

30 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

This is a cop out post and you know it. The differences are night & day. Stats are for -well, you know..

Not a cop out. I believe Allen’s leadership, competitiveness and intangibles are way beyond EJ’s. But all those things mean nothing unless he improves in year 2. I don’t believe they’ll bring in a QB in the draft or FA.

 

It will be interesting to see if Allen makes an actual statistical improvement in year 2. 

 

There are arguments that can be made to support improvement, regression, or a plateau. 

 

Can we all agree he must improve his completion percentage? Accuracy aside people need to start catching greater than 50% of his pass attempts.   

[Buffalo Ballin]

2 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

He was a sub 60% completion passer as a rookie who was forced to play to soon.  After the first season it was deemed he didn’t have any talent around him so Buffalo in incorrectly traded up for Sammy Watkins thinking that a WR would help his completion percentage.

 

Little did Buffalo realize that the QB makes the Receivers not the other way around.

 

good thing things are no where near that in Buffalo today.

 

...

...

? ???

So is Josh Allen. Things right now are still as bad as back then; we're not in the playoffs.

[Buftex]

I know it is an unpopular opinion, and ultimately he probably was never going to be an upper echelon starter, but he really didn't get much of a shot in Buffalo.  For a guy who was drafted as high as he was, he only had 10 starts before Marrone, essentially gave up on him.  Even Jamarcus Russell, the standard for modern NFL QB bust got 15 consecutive starts in his second season (missed most of his rookie season with holdout and injury issues) before the Raiders pulled the plug on him. Really, after the first 5 games of his rookie season, Manuel had 12 more starts, spread out over 4 seasons. Before he got injured against Cleveland, on that Thursday night game, he was 2-2 as a starter, and I think most Bills fans were cautiously optimisitic that the Bills might have a decent QB.  But that injury, 5 games into his career, pretty much sealed his fate.  He never really had a real shot after that.  Not necessarily blaming Marrone, but he just had no committment to the first round pick. I do feel like he could have improved with more playing time. 

1 hour ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

This is a cop out post and you know it. The differences are night & day. Stats are for -well, you know..

I agree with you, but their passing stats are pretty similar in their rookie years...EJ has a slight edge in completion % and TD/INT ratio.  But, obviously, Allens' mobility (and pulse) give him a huge edge.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Buftex

[Punching Bag]

EJ was a hard worker during the season. Bruce tried to lend his support to his godson. During offseason Bruce should have been emphasizing to him he needed help with his passing and then he would have been better prepared. There was some significant hope after 1st year he would improve but frankly there was no chance of that with Maroon and his OC. 

 

He certainly was not the worst QB who was designated as starter at start of year.

[Ol Dirty B]

2 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

This is a cop out post and you know it. The differences are night & day. Stats are for -well, you know..

 

Intelligent people? Not Homer's? People not trying to hide from reality? 

 

You know everyone who utters that quote pretty much gets fired. It's pretty much the dumbest quote ever when you use it in your context.

[Ol Dirty B]

1 hour ago, Buftex said:

 

I agree with you, but their passing stats are pretty similar in their rookie years...EJ has a slight edge in completion % and TD/INT ratio.  But, obviously, Allens' mobility (and pulse) give him a huge edge.

 

Neither of them had good stats or won. It's an awful use of an already awful phrase. Lol like what is his point.

[Jasovon]

5 hours ago, RalphWilson'sNewWar said:

He was a sub 60% completion passer as a rookie who was forced to play to soon.  After the first season it was deemed he didn’t have any talent around him so Buffalo in incorrectly traded up for Sammy Watkins thinking that a WR would help his completion percentage.

 

Little did Buffalo realize that the QB makes the Receivers not the other way around.

 

good thing things are no where near that in Buffalo today.

 

...

...

? ???

The QB makes the receivers? So Josh needs to hit his receivers more in the hands and chest does he? 

 

You need both, you cannot win in the NFL with practice squad receivers. Look at Green Bay this season and tell me they don't miss Jordy Nelson. 

[Bill from NYC]

After we drafted EJ I watched clips of him at FSU and he seemed to be agile, and a fast runner. When he got to Buffalo he looked as if he was running in sand. I never understood that.

[Gugny]

54 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

After we drafted EJ I watched clips of him at FSU and he seemed to be agile, and a fast runner. When he got to Buffalo he looked as if he was running in sand. I never understood that.

 

I think it's just another great example of the tremendous gap in overall talent between top college football teams and the NFL.  

 

I was a huge EJ fan, but I think the NFL game was just too fast for him.

 

I do, however, think that being drafted by the Bills killed his career before it even started.  There couldn't have been a worse time/place to be a young QB.

[Troll Toll]

I remember EJ hanging all his receivers out to dry. He had real accuracy issues. Telegraphed his throws. No pocket presence. Surprisingly weak arm. Couldn’t keep the deep ball in bounds. Didn’t see defenders in the area he would throw to. Checked down all the time on third down. Could not complete passes to wide open receivers. I remember Whaley basically saying they drafted him because he physically looked like a quarterback.

 

For people comparing him to Josh, I’d be real interested to see the comparison of air yards per attempt. It’s like people don’t realize it is a lot harder to complete 20 yard throws in stride than 2 yard throws to stationary targets. It’s easy to see the difference in Josh Allen to past QBs just by the way the other team plays. Defenses are finally not crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff runs and short passes. So long offenses of Trent, EJ, Tyrod, and Fitz.

[Capco]

What went wrong after year 1? 

 

EJ Manuel went wrong.  

 

Honestly though, I used to be in the bandwagon that EJ just wasn't given enough of a chance and that the whole "eye test" thing was a load of bull.  But after watching Josh Allen play this year with far less talent than EJ had around him, I finally get what they were saying.  

 

Granted, Josh has made some awful throws this year (the two INTs last week come to mind), but I still think the guy just has "it", whatever the hell "it" even is.  I never got that feeling with EJ in every game he played in the same way that I do with Allen. 

 

Sometimes EJ would turn "it" on and wow you, but Josh has "it" on 24/7.  

[Chandler#81]

2 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Intelligent people? Not Homer's? People not trying to hide from reality? 

 

You know everyone who utters that quote pretty much gets fired. It's pretty much the dumbest quote ever when you use it in your context.

I disagree with you as well, especially your ‘intelligent’ belief stats speak truth. Allen -for whatever reasons/ basically shuns the short game aka your dumbest criteria. Assuredly, his tremendous arm talent is part of it. Do I anticipate more emphasis on safer passes next season? Not really. He’s too good a downfield passer to not allow him. But Hey, stick with Madden and let us know how that works out for ya, Einstein..

[TAinLack.]

For me, after he got injured, things really went bad, it seemed the Bills tried to make him a pocket passer and that finished him.

Edited December 27, 2018 by TAinLA
spelling

[Rc2catch]

I think EJ had potential to be a decent quarterback. But as buffalo usually does we ran him out there too fast. 

I don’t see any real comparisons to Allen other than needing time to develop. The ceiling is completely different for each. 

EJ got shell shocked and could never recover. Had he gone to a team and sat a couple years and learned the pro level of the game before playing and had a smart coach he could of been decent top 25 kinda quarterback. Fringe starter I guess you could say. He just got shell shocked and his brain melted down. Some could argue maybe he never had the mental tools to begin with. He started out decent though he just got worse and worse and soooooo scared by the end. 

[RichRiderBills]

1 hour ago, Gugny said:

 

I think it's just another great example of the tremendous gap in overall talent between top college football teams and the NFL.  

 

I was a huge EJ fan, but I think the NFL game was just too fast for him.

 

I do, however, think that being drafted by the Bills killed his career before it even started.  There couldn't have been a worse time/place to be a young QB.

 

Man the last part here is complete crap....EJ was set up and it was a great situation for him in Buff...he was given solid WRs , decent Oline , coach committed to run game. The year he flubbed out, the team was nearly propelled to the playoffs by Kyle Orton...who was mostly a bum.

 

In 2014, we had a 4th ranked defense loaded w talent.

 

He had a GM who was in love with him, and had nothing but support until his play faltered.

 

Who cares about a demanding coach or change of ownership, EJ was just not good and his results spoke for themselves.

[Another Fan]

4 hours ago, Buftex said:

I know it is an unpopular opinion, and ultimately he probably was never going to be an upper echelon starter, but he really didn't get much of a shot in Buffalo.  For a guy who was drafted as high as he was, he only had 10 starts before Marrone, essentially gave up on him.  Even Jamarcus Russell, the standard for modern NFL QB bust got 15 consecutive starts in his second season (missed most of his rookie season with holdout and injury issues) before the Raiders pulled the plug on him. Really, after the first 5 games of his rookie season, Manuel had 12 more starts, spread out over 4 seasons. Before he got injured against Cleveland, on that Thursday night game, he was 2-2 as a starter, and I think most Bills fans were cautiously optimisitic that the Bills might have a decent QB.  But that injury, 5 games into his career, pretty much sealed his fate.  He never really had a real shot after that.  Not necessarily blaming Marrone, but he just had no committment to the first round pick. I do feel like he could have improved with more playing time. 

I agree with you, but their passing stats are pretty similar in their rookie years...EJ has a slight edge in completion % and TD/INT ratio.  But, obviously, Allens' mobility (and pulse) give him a huge edge.

Agree in that the Bills never really gave him a solid foundation to work with.  However I’d imagine by this time he would have been able to pick himself up by now if he had it.  Again maybe other variables there?

 

I always thought his best bet would have been playing in the CFL to get a change of scenery and more confidence 

[GRHater69]

 

For me, after he got injured, things really went bad, it seemed the Bills tried to make him a pocket passer and that finished him.

 

I thought that about him as well. He got hurt in the preseason then again in regular season against Cleveland. Once he came back, he looked like he had chances to pull the ball down and make something happen but would then stop. That's mostly coaching, heck even Rex said that Manuel should use his legs more. They did the same thing to JP Lossman. He could run, but Jauron and his "staff" forced him to stay in the pocket.

Edited December 27, 2018 by GRHater69

[billsfan1959]

15 minutes ago, Chandler#81 said:

I disagree with you as well, especially your ‘intelligent’ belief stats speak truth. Allen -for whatever reasons/ basically shuns the short game aka your dumbest criteria. Assuredly, his tremendous arm talent is part of it. Do I anticipate more emphasis on safer passes next season? Not really. He’s too good a downfield passer to not allow him. But Hey, stick with Madden and let us know how that works out for ya, Einstein..

There is no doubt that Allen passes up shorter, safer, and more certain completions to look for those in that 25-40 yard range, and, with more experience, I believe he'll get better at knowing when to take those shorter, higher percentage, throws. However, I absolutely love that he looks for those 25-40 yard passes first and that is who he is. I hope they put the right talent around him to maximize that aspect of his game.

[Troll Toll]

8 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

There is no doubt that Allen passes up shorter, safer, and more certain completions to look for those in that 25-40 yard range, and, with more experience, I believe he'll get better at knowing when to take those shorter, higher percentage, throws. However, I absolutely love that he looks for those 25-40 yard passes first and that is who he is. I hope they put the right talent around him to maximize that aspect of his game.

That’s my biggest hope too. Get him some consistent downfield threats. From a player perspective, in the physical mold of an AJ Green or Martavis Bryant. Allen would unleash Hell on the opponent with those tall, fast receivers.

Edited December 27, 2018 by Troll Toll

[Nextmanup]

It's amazing how much talent will help overcome "confidence" issues or opposing coaching film review.

 

Unfortunately, EJ didn't have much of it and that was obvious from the beginning.

 

I would suggest he was no different in year 2 vs. year 1; it's just that expectations changed around him.

 

The same will happen for Allen next year; the honeymoon is going to end at some point and he'll have to produce--on a consistent basis--if he is going to stay in the league.

 

 

[Troll Toll]

3 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

It's amazing how much talent will help overcome "confidence" issues or opposing coaching film review.

 

Unfortunately, EJ didn't have much of it and that was obvious from the beginning.

 

I would suggest he was no different in year 2 vs. year 1; it's just that expectations changed around him.

 

The same will happen for Allen next year; the honeymoon is going to end at some point and he'll have to produce--on a consistent basis--if he is going to stay in the league.

 

 

Disagree on the last part. With EJ it was EJ holding back the other 10 guys on offense. Right now, the other 10 guys are holding Josh back. EJ didn’t give guys good opportunities to make plays. Josh is giving out great downfield opportunities left and right and our current crew can’t finish.

[SoCal Deek]

EJ threw the ball like he was shooting darts. Super odd throwing motion. (In fact, other than Rivers, I’m not sure I’ve seen such an unnatural motion.) He was never going to make it in the NFL trying to throw to receivers with that style.

[Mike in Horseheads]

Marrone

[JESSEFEFFER]

Doug Marrone pulled the plug on a 2/2 2nd year QB who had just been terrorized by JJ Watt in a game that could still have been win at the end in favor of Kyle Orton who had no upside and really offered no added production, imo.  Marrone planned to use that season and his out clause to leverage the new ownership into increased organizational power and he did not want the plan scuttled by the up and down play of a QB with less than 15 career starts.  He preferred the certainty of the so-so play of a veteran QB who was a finished product and  had been there and done that.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

I don't think Hackett was prepared to work with a rookie QB and we had 0 QB coach in year 1.  I don't think it was necessarily mechanical - but i don't know that enough time was spent with him in year 1.  Daboll seems to be making it more of a priority, and there is an actual QB coach on staff.  

[tbarg12]

8 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

Doug Maroon.

Sounds like a terrible Maroon 5 cover band

[jaybee]

So what happens if Allen plays at the same level next year ?  Its very possible.  Do we draft another?  Do we suffer 4 years thru his rookie contract....because we drafted him high?  Hand the Keys to Matt ?  

 

Would love to see him develop but you've got to be concerned if you've watched him so far.