EJ Manuel: What went wrong after year 1?

[JOE IN HAMPTON ROADS]

13 hours ago, LeGOATski said:

Among other things, there was definitely a confidence issue. I remember the media trashing on EJ so hard, even as a rookie. After one PC, as EJ was leaving the room, a reporter asked something along the lines of 'Should the Bills draft another QB right away??' Like, some went out of their way to trash him. It was pathetic.

good thing theres nothing like that going on now.

[bmur66]

This

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK-KSaRl2i4

[Bing Bong]

2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Exactly what the poster alluding to his "throwing motion" was driving at.

 

Whether it was confidence or advise from too many directions, he really started aiming the ball and that resulted in even poorer accuracy.(Yips if you will)

 

I'm of the OPINION that the Bills didn't ruin Manuel and that no QB is ever truly "ruined" by circumstance. If Manuel had the fortitude to be a high quality NFL QB, he'd have been able to to block out all the external noise and just play football. It takes a special breed to play the most demanding position in sports and EJ wasn't one of the few.

Teams don't ruin Quarterbacks. Quarterbacks let themselves get ruined.

 

Poor coaching? Bad line? Bad receivers? Play well enough for your team to want to invest in you. JA has done as much IMO, and Whaley tried his damndest for EJ as well after some promising games (or at least high caliber instances when throwing) lest we forget that.

 

EJ could have game managed a very good 2014 Bills team to great heights.. we didn't need much in the way of offense. And speak up if you're coach is confusing you EJ. Play your best football, nobody to blame but you in this business

Edited December 27, 2018 by BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P

[LSHMEAB]

5 minutes ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

Teams don't ruin Quarterbacks. Quarterbacks let themselves get ruined.

 

Poor coaching? Bad line? Bad receivers? Play well enough for your team to want to invest in you. JA has done as much IMO, and Whaley tried his damndest for EJ as well after some promising games lest we forget that.

Yep. Coaches may give you poor instruction/advice, etc. and that can put you at a psychological disadvantage. What a guy who's going to be a top NFL QB does with that instruction is chuck it out the window when the real bullets start flying. Just make plays the way you know how to make plays because nobody is going to argue with results. The X's and O's of football are extremely complex but some things are rather simple.

 

In Manuel's case, it seems like "coachable" was a detriment. He tried too hard to play exactly the way he was told to play. That never works. You gotta do you.

Edited December 27, 2018 by LSHMEAB

[QB Bills]

Nothing went wrong. He always sucked. 

 

Still have nightmares of him doing that stupid backwards spin at the first hint of pressure (imagined or not).

[buffaloaggie]

Bills QB scouting is awful. Except for Jim Kelly, they have not been able to draft a good QB. They need to go with drafting a QB almost every year until they find one. Putting the eggs all in one basket is their latest mistake. Definitely the case with Manuel. I still cringe when Cyrus Kouandjio's name was announced with Garoppolo available in the 2nd round. This year is not the year for QBs coming out of college, but we need to get one again in the 2020 draft. Manuel and Losman were wastes. I love Allen's heart. Manuel was never a leader. I think Allen is, but we desperately need a QB guru to work with him.

[Trogdor]

8 hours ago, Troll Toll said:

I remember EJ hanging all his receivers out to dry. He had real accuracy issues. Telegraphed his throws. No pocket presence. Surprisingly weak arm. Couldn’t keep the deep ball in bounds. Didn’t see defenders in the area he would throw to. Checked down all the time on third down. Could not complete passes to wide open receivers. I remember Whaley basically saying they drafted him because he physically looked like a quarterback.

 

For people comparing him to Josh, I’d be real interested to see the comparison of air yards per attempt. It’s like people don’t realize it is a lot harder to complete 20 yard throws in stride than 2 yard throws to stationary targets. It’s easy to see the difference in Josh Allen to past QBs just by the way the other team plays. Defenses are finally not crowding the line of scrimmage to stuff runs and short passes. So long offenses of Trent, EJ, Tyrod, and Fitz.

He doesn't get a pass because he tries to throw everything downfield. Passing up the correct shorter throw for a longer one is a poor excuse. 

[_Underscore_]

Maybe it would not have made a difference, but I think the circumstances scuttled EJ Manual more than any rookie quarterback I can recall.  Please correct me if I am incorrect in some of the details.

 

EJ had physical gifts, but needed help above the neck.  EJ’s weak suit, reading defenses and making fast decisions, was Fitzs’s strong suit.  What’s more, Fitz had all the personal characteristics to make a good mentor.  Then, presumably with the plan to select EJ but before the actual draft, our senile GM gets punk’d by DJs in Tampa, and to save face, the planned mentor and bridge QB is unceremonially cut. 

 

Kolb is signed to start while they develop EJ, and he gets taken out by a mat (seriously, who could even write this stuff?).  EJ gets hurt and misses some of the preseason, but just makes it healthy to get stuffed into the lineup by opening day.

 

So, a QB who was drafted as a project becomes a starter on day one.  The first-time OC decides that his developmental, slow-eyed rookie should start in an up-tempo, no huddle, option offense (!?!?).  An offense that is based on a QB making fast decisions at the line of scrimmage AND no opportunity to work it out in the huddle.  Awesome.

 

After a few weeks of mixed results (including some successful scrambling), EJ gets hurt in Cleveland.  When he gets back, it appears (at least to me) that the Napoleonic coach instructs him NOT TO RUN, but keeps playing the QB option offense.

 

This abominations of an offense carries over into the next year, where half-way through the coaching staff very visibly and publically turns their back on the kid and the ball is taken from his hands.  By the end of the season, the former first round pick is saying "If I ever get back in, I'm just going to rip it".  At this point, it seems to me that it wasn't the opponents that were in EJ's head, but his own coaches.

 

Then, the staff turns over, and the team is taken over by a buffoon who is so butt-sore over Sanchez that he says “Screw-em!!!  I’ll design an offense that doesn’t NEED a quarterback who can throw the ball!!!”  Thus, the EJ Manual development project ends with an offense that is the (it makes me feel dirty even saying this) “brain-child” of Rex Ryan and “the QB who shall remain nameless”.

 

I’m not saying that EJ was going to be the second coming of anyone special, but I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that his failure was facilitated in a great degree by some monumental pinheadery by others in the organization.  Every time I read someone say that rookie's can't learn from the bench, I think of EJ.  Had they kept Fitz and let EJ work on his footwork and watch tape for a year, it might have been different.

 

 

[Trogdor]

5 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think we forget what the OP linked: he showed flashes.  During his rookie year, overall his performance was not atypical of rookie "teething pains".

 

I personally think EJM got something akin to the "Yips" between conflicting advice, no QB coach and an inexperienced OC his rookie season, and possibly conflicting coaching advice,  but that's just my theory.

 

 

None of that helped, but he had his fair share of issues in college too. He really under performed at both levels and I think we discount that too often here. I can't think of a QB who wasn't a proven winner just developing into one in the NFL. 

[corta765]

8 hours ago, Capco said:

WhGranted, Josh has made some awful throws this year (the two INTs last week come to mind), but I still think the guy just has "it", whatever the hell "it" even is.  I never got that feeling with EJ in every game he played in the same way that I do with Allen. 

 

 

The only game I remember kinda thinking EJ had the "IT" was that Carolina game and now looking in retrospect I think it was more luck specifically that dropped INT and flag at the end. With Josh the Miami and MIN games I left saying holy crap this guy can be real good.

 

What sucked with EJ who I was in the bandwagon big time for is he should not have started week 1. He was the definition of a project QB you needed to let sit and take it all in. He was a guy I think who just needed time and coaching if he were to ever figure it out. The problem was the defense was good enough to win with and Marrone seemed to be non surprisingly very conservative with his handling of EJ after his knee injury. My dad and I remarked at points that they drafted him to be a bit mobile from time to time yet after the injury he and the team seemed gun shy of him doing so taking away one of his best strengths.

 

EJ was the opposite of Allen passing wise always being nervous and willing to check down whereas Josh I think goes big too much and always thinks he can make the play when he should take whats given. But his arm strength and ability to throw where he wants is one of his best traits. EJ vs. Josh in a throwoff wouldn't be close, Josh needs time just to refine himself but he can make every throw with EJ I never got that vibe.

Edited December 27, 2018 by corta765

[without a drought]

Let's just hope that there isn't a future Allen thread like this in the coming years.

[Boatdrinks]

EJ threw the ball like he was playing darts in a bar. He just didn’t have an NFL throwing motion. His instincts in the pocket were poor, and he wasn’t a great runner when outside of it. A backup caliber QB at best. The NFL has a way of exposing you after year one and an offseason of D coordinators studying film. If your game has fatal flaws, they will be revealed. 

[LSHMEAB]

Looked it up and EJ ran a faster 40 than Allen! Crazy. I'm an analytics/numbers guy, but that's a huge win for the old school types who say testing doesn't matter. Rarely agree with them on much of anything, but they win this one.

 

EJ looked slow as hell on the field. Everything he did was slow as a matter of fact. I like to see QB's doing things with some pace.

[John from Riverside]

What I remember of him is he simply would not pull the trigger as far as throwing the football......then he had this same spin move he would do to escape pass rusher's in the pocket.....once defenses tuned into that he was spinning right into sacks.

 

 

[blacklabel]

I always go back to this article the Bills website posted just prior to the 2014 season. It went really in-depth on Manuel's history, upbringing and development in football. The thing that was mentioned that stood out to me is that EJ actually needed a fair amount of tutoring all through middle and high school. Not that that's a bad thing or whatever, but my takeaway from that was that EJ was probably always gonna have trouble with the mental aspect of playing QB. You have to know what all ten of your fellow teammates are doing or need to do on any given play. You need to assess defensive looks both pre and post-snap. You have to be able to check out of plays, you have to recognize if the defense is giving a specific look that you know you have a play in the playbook that can beat that look (kinda like how Allen checked into the go-route to Foster on the "the sun was in mah eyes!" play from Sunday), etc. etc. There's just so much to the position mentally that it's easy to see how young QBs get overwhelmed very easily. And despite the fact that EJ's work ethic is off the charts, there are some things in the game that are a "you either got it or you don't" type of situation and I think his post-snap decisions showed how difficult it was for him to properly adjust to what the defense was throwing at him. His internal clock always seemed a tick slow and his brain seemed to default to "no one's open, don't hang around and wait for something to develop, just run!" most of the time.

 

I also recall a scouting report I read on him which made a good point: the person EJ trusts the most to make a play is himself. He still locks onto his first read at times and if it isn't there, he takes off, clean pocket or not. He has a hesitancy to toss one up in a 50/50 situation and give his guys a chance to make a play. It certainly didn't help that Marrone and Hackett both wanted to run the ball forever and coached him to bail and run if his immediate reads weren't open. That's pisspoor coaching. EJ had his own flaws for sure but the coaching around him in Buffalo was hot garbage. Marrone is a moody weirdo, Hackett always looked like he was in over his head, and the QB coach was Todd Downing, who, at the time, had a resume of being basically an assistant to other assistant coaches up until 2011 when he was hired to coach QBs in Detroit. He did really well with Derek Carr from 2015 to 2016 and was even promoted to OC for 2017 where he promptly drove that entire side of the ball into the ground all the way to China and was fired as soon as the season ended. 

 

You could even say that EJ had a fairly decent supporting cast having Woods, Watkins, Goodwin and Hogan. He had Glenn and Wood in their prime up front, had Fred Jackson and CJ Spiller, but things just didn't pan out.

 

I also don't think Marrone liked the kid from day one, honestly. He wanted to roll with Kolb until he was viciously attacked by a floor-mat, leaving them no choice to start Manuel, who had missed most of the pre-season that year due to injury but was rushed back for week one. EJ takes his lumps in 2013, heads into 2014 thinking he's the unquestioned starter... but then... what was it... ten days before the regular season started and here comes Kyle Orton and there goes EJ's confidence. Now he has a decent veteran to learn from, maybe that's what he was told, but four games in he gets sent to the bench and has been a backup ever since. And there was all that friction between Marrone and Whaley who were at polar opposites when it came to the QB position. Marrone kicked and screamed for a vet QB until he got his way all while Whaley was like, "play the kid!" No cohesion up top makes things difficult. 

 

I dunno, a lot goes into it. He definitely shouldn't have been a first round pick, him being taken 16th overall created pressure from a good part of the fan-base who sees "first round pick EJ Manuel, oh, he must be awesome to go in the first, he better not suck!!" and they call for his benching the minute he throws one crappy pass. I think at best, EJ could've been a high quality game manager. Rely on the run, play it safe most times, protect the ball, eat up the clock and every now and then let him take some shots. With better coaching and understanding he could've been a guy like that. But, his flaws combined with a poor coaching setup in Buffalo pretty much doomed his career by the end of his rookie season.

Edited December 27, 2018 by blacklabel

[Bill_with_it]

A better question is what went right......

[Big Turk]

He couldn't get the plays down no matter how they kept trying to simplify the playbook for him. That was coming from a former teammate who said the coaches just were constantly frustrated by him.

[SinceThe70s]

Who are Buffalo Bills 1st round QB picks Alex?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

16 minutes ago, SinceThe70s said:

Who are Buffalo Bills 1st round QB picks Alex?

 

ALEX: "we've invalidated THAT category out of sympathy. Please select ANOTHER category"..............

Edited December 27, 2018 by OldTimeAFLGuy

[LABILLBACKER]

Is this nostalgia EJ week?

[Bangarang]

Seems like yesterday when so many people were arguing about how EJ was our next franchise QB.

[BringBackOrton]

Everyone talks about “EJ wasn’t given a shot.”

 

If only Allen had Watkins, Woods, Goodwin Hogan, Fred Jackson, and Spiller around him. Oh and Eric Wood as a vet C.

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

5 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Seems like yesterday when so many people were arguing about how EJ was our next franchise QB.

 

 

...irony is Genome Smith was OBD's/Buddy's FIRST CHOICE......they flew down to interview him and work him out...consensus on the plane ride home was, "um...no thanks"....so EJ was "2nd fiddle".....BOTH had "several broken strings" IMO.........

[Rico]

8 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

Seems like yesterday when so many people were arguing about how EJ was our next franchise QB.

Yes, RIP Bills-Fan-4-ever or whatever his name was before he got banned.

[BringBackOrton]

43 minutes ago, BUFFALOBART said:

 

Here is EJ in all of his glory. (Cough!)

Did you see the EJ thread and decide YOU needed one too?

[Orlando Tim]

7 hours ago, BarkleyForGOATBackupPT5P said:

That's true. But he was gifted our best Bills team in ages. I would never sacrifice a good team for a rookie quarterback who can only thrive under a no pressure 6-10 season of development like Allen basically played with. Totally with Marrone here if that's your take.

 

Rookie quarterback needs to learn what it takes to win above all. Steelers would have been nuts to have Big Ben have a no-pressure pick happy season with the team around him. Instead he learned how to win and was all the more confident too. Same with Brady.

 

These guys were young game managers that benefitted from their early success piggybacking on great teams before they eventually were handed the ropes to "win or lose on their own"

 

On a bad team I'd agree with you. On the 2014 Bills.. Heck no! We were good QB play away from being a legit playoff team.

You have a good point that i had not considered. But in a league where qbs dominate i would have given up 2014 for a better 2016. But your point is completely valid.

[Nihilarian]

What escapes most Bills fans and some NFL coaches it seems... is how a rookie QB is developed in his first year in the NFL. I can't overstate how important it is to a rookie QB to have a veteran NFL QB on the roster to help guide that rookie QB through his first season. To have a qualified NFL QB coach to help guide him in his first season. To have an NFL qualified offensive coordinator to help guild him in his first NFL season. EJ had none of those! 

 

No veteran QB on the roster

No NFL QB coach with that 2013 Buffalo staff

No NFL OC with previous NFL experience on the staff

One of the worst offensive lines in the NFL that season

 

EJ had some veteran QB help during the OTA's, pre season and that ended when Kevin Kolb met that rubber mat that ended his NFL career!  Besides that who even then who knows how helpful Kolb was to any of the QBs on the roster that year. 

 

Bills fans need to understand that EJ was a rookie QB, Jeff Tuel was an undrafted free agent rookie QB that year and Thaddeus Lewis was basically a rookie with only one game in Cleveland (32 attempts) in 2012. So that 2013 Buffalo Bills opening day roster had 3 rookie QBs on it with no real starting experience. 

Three rookie QBs, no QB coach and Nathaniel Hackett as his OC who came straight from college and was never previously an NFL offensive coordinator. Is it any wonder why EJ failed?

Kinda like this year with Nathaniel Peterman as the starter and one game under his belt from the year and Josh Allen as the only QB's on the roster for the first six games. 

 

The way I look at it 2014 was more like what his rookie season should been with veteran QB Kyle Orton on the roster, and an actual NFL QB coach. Then Marrone benching EJ after a bad performance against the Texans week 4. This after asking EJ to throw 44 times vs 23 runs. That season was a clusterfluck on offense with Fred Jackson missing games, CJ Spiller missing games and when the team did run it was 70% of the time right up the middle with Hackett calling plays.  

 

Just to give fans and idea how bad that Bills O line was that year. In week 16 against the Raiders with a playoff berth on the line at Oakland the Bills only ran 13 times for 13 yards with Orton throwing 49 times! This was against the 3-12 Raiders who were 32nd in points allowed. Each time the Bills ran the ball the Buffalo RB was met in the backfield almost every run.

 

 

Anyway, EJ had stated he learned more from watching Kyle Orton prepare for a game then he ever learned from anyone else on the team. What does that tell you about his OC, his QB coach? The kid never had a chance to properly develop in Buffalo due to inept coaching. 

 

Josh Allen didn't have a veteran QB for the first quarter of the 2018 season and credits Anderson, Barkley with his improvement after his injury. Still, the scheme he has been playing in is not conducive in properly developing a rookie QB. 

 

[wppete]

What’s up with bashing EJ lately???? 

[Rico]

34 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

Did you see the EJ thread and decide YOU needed one too?

It's all good, this is an EJ tribute thread, just like his JP tribute thread.

[LSHMEAB]

39 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

 

...irony is Genome Smith was OBD's/Buddy's FIRST CHOICE......they flew down to interview him and work him out...consensus on the plane ride home was, "um...no thanks"....so EJ was "2nd fiddle".....BOTH had "several broken strings" IMO.........

That's why you never draft a QB because the "timing" is right. If there isn't a guy you like, sign a vet and wait til next year.

 

By the way, Robert Woods is f'ing crazy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Edited December 28, 2018 by LSHMEAB

[Rico]

2 minutes ago, wppete said:

What’s up with bashing EJ lately???? 

Lately? It's always good times bashing EJ.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

3 hours ago, Trogdor said:

None of that helped, but he had his fair share of issues in college too. He really under performed at both levels and I think we discount that too often here. I can't think of a QB who wasn't a proven winner just developing into one in the NFL. 

 

Please define what you mean by "proven winner" at the college level.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

1 hour ago, Bangarang said:

Seems like yesterday when so many people were arguing about how EJ was our next franchise QB.

 

You never believed in Santa or the tooth fairy??

 

irrational hope was all we had!

37 minutes ago, wppete said:

What’s up with bashing EJ lately???? 

 

It’s  how you warm up your Allen bash game when it’s still just a few games to soon to start piling on him 

Edited December 28, 2018 by Over 29 years of fanhood

[Boca BIlls]

Same thing that went on with every year of EJ... he isnt good.

[BillyWhiteShows]

13 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I think it's just another great example of the tremendous gap in overall talent between top college football teams and the NFL.  

 

I was a huge EJ fan, but I think the NFL game was just too fast for him.

 

I do, however, think that being drafted by the Bills killed his career before it even started.  There couldn't have been a worse time/place to be a young QB.

 

The problem was that EJ never was a first round talent to begin with.  2013 was a very weak year for quarterbacks and rather than taking in the 3rd or 4th round, Buddy made him a 1st round pick which set the bar way too high to begin with.  It didn’t help to have Whaley double down as trade for Sammy the next season.  

 

I don’t think anything went wrong for EJ.  He just wasn’t good enough to be a starting QB in the NFL and the Bills were so desperate they reached huge for him.  

 

I do agree - he was put in a really bad situation though I doubt he had the talent to be a good NFL QB to begin with

[Fr. Jerk]

Drafting EJ was wrong, giving up future drafts to get Sammy to help EJ is where it went really wrong. 

Edited December 28, 2018 by The Jerk

[dayman]

EJ was a terrible pick. He wasn't that good at FSU and it was a bizarre reach to stake the team/executive future on him. Nothing went wrong with his development he was never going to make it. 

[qwksilver]

When can we start the Joe Dufek topics?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

When Doug Whaley talked about why he loved EJ Manuel the entire talk was about his leadership, presence and size. No mention of his accuracy, his decision making, his productivity.

 

He didn’t have many 300 yard games in college relative to his draft status. FSU immediately won the National Championship after he left. 

 

Manuel has some dud games in his rookie year, including Pittsburgh and Tampa Bay.

 

I think what went wrong was he never could read a defense, never fixed his accuracy issues and what I noticed was the for a guy that was billed as having a huge arm he never seemed to step into throws or put any steam into his throws. He threw a lot of checkdown floaters. Questionable instincts for the game as well. He would try to spin away from the rush and inadvertedly go head-first right back into it. 

 

Ultimately he was a lot like Trent Edwards, Tyrod Taylor and Josh Allen (so far). He led an offense that really only could muster one (1) TD drive a game. The offense was unproductive and went 3-out. 

[dayman]

I live in Florida, not one Florida grown college fan (FSU or UF or Miami) believed that EJ was anything more than average. Ever. Doug thought he was far better than loyal FSU fans that wanted nothing more than to defend him/support him. 

Edited December 28, 2018 by dayman