Belichick without TB12

[Dubie54]

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

[BBFL]

Tom is Bill, Bill is Tom. 
Still, so they know, cheating is wrong. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Great coach and great QB. 

[Long Suffering Fan]

The guy was a special coach.

 

He did amazing things as the D coord of NYGs and got 2 SB rings that way.  One, very painfully, at our expense.  Then he rebuilt a terrible Browns team and took him to the playoffs.  Next he started to rebuild a terrible Pats team.  When we look at stats like this, it is misleading because it is two rebuilding periods (without Tom) that are in the numbers.  Next, he wins the SB with Tom and, his first year, I'm not sure Tom should get all that credit.  I think he has one TD pass that entire playoffs.  Later he goes 11-5 (?) with Matt Cassel when Toms out.  Next, he dragged Mac Jones to the playoffs.  

 

Tom became amazing, but that shouldn't diminish Bill.  Just to be clear, I do not like either of them and Bill has been a personal demon for me up until this year.

[DrDawkinstein]

Amazing coach. GOAT QB.

 

edit: also, I hate this thread for making me say that.

Edited January 12 by DrDawkinstein

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

There’s a lot of legendary coaches that would be just ok if you took their best player away lol. He was also the gm that drafted Tom and the coach that gave him a shot too so I think he deserves some credit for Brady’s success also 

[papazoid]

name the best coaches who didn't have a pro bowl level QB

 

it'll be a very short list

[TheyCallMeAndy]

What’s Marvs record without Kelly? 
 

Great QBs need great coaches, great coaches need great QBs 

[T master]

Every winner has to have a chemistry or a connection with the HC & the staff members that are put around him and both of those have changed since TB 12 has left so it's hard to re invent the wheel once that talent & that connection that came with it is gone .

 

Dabol seemed to have a better play calling acumen for Josh & the long ball but it has taken 2 seasons to find out Dorsey did;t have that same connection so they had to move on and Brady has a better connection or chemistry with Josh than Dorsey .

Edited January 12 by T master

[FireChans]

36 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

Do Bill Walsh without his QB’s next.

 

who are you comparing him to

[May Day 10]

I was once an 'its all Belichick and the Patriots' 'system' they have.

 

These days, I think it is almost equal Belichick/Brady.  Neither would have amounted to anywhere near their historical status without the other (and I am convinced nobody would remember Tom Brady).

 

It was a perfect storm of a coach/staff who was ahead of the curve and would find every single margin to take advantage of for winning.  You had a QB who wasnt all that gifted, but was willing to give his entire being to being the greatest and winning.  

[Process]

Greatest dynasty in sports history and one that will never be repeated. You don't do that with an all time QB and an all time coach. Ridiculous debate IMO. 

[GunnerBill]

41 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

 

They didn't. 

[Don Otreply]

35 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

How about the cheatingest duo in modern sports history, I mean come on , caught cheating every 4 1/2 years on average for two consecutive decades, who celebrates these sorts of people?  Birds of a feather I suspect.

[papazoid]

43 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

 

 

2008 NE went 11-5 with Matt Cassel

[Punching Bag]

He was able to win with Cassel so it is not all Br*dy but not without his director of cheating and dirty tricks Ernie Adams.

The correlation is much higher.

[BillnutinHouston]

Anyone else catch that in Belicheck's farewell comments yesterday he thanked the video department?

[Punching Bag]

5 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

How about the cheatingest duo in modern sports history, I mean come on , caught cheating every 4 1/2 years on average for two consecutive decades, who celebrates these sorts of people?  Birds of a feather I suspect.

 

3 minutes ago, papazoid said:

2008 NE went 11-5 with Matt Cassel

 

Yes but they still had Ernie Adams going thru rules looking for ways to walk boundaries or at least not be penalized too often.

They had Ernie Adams reviewing film looking for referee tendencies.

 

It is a shell game where person moving shells palms ball.

2 minutes ago, BillnutinHouston said:

Anyone else catch that in Belicheck's farewell comments yesterday he thanked the video department?

 

Yes.

[Gugny]

55 minutes ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

Greatest coach in NFL history and greatest QB in NFL history. 

[SoonerBillsFan]

45 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Amazing coach. GOAT QB.

 

edit: also, I hate this thread for making me say that.

That sums it up.

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

He's gone.

 

I don't think there's any need to pile on

[Brand J]

Probably a better defensive coordinator than HC, but Brady is the engine that made the Pats go. I’m not saying Belichick was just along for the ride, clearly his defensive schemes posed a problem for just about every team, but without Brady and his ice water veins Belichick would be just another sub 500 head coach.

What would Brady be without Belichick? Maybe he wouldn’t have won as many rings because his coach wouldn’t have schemed up the defense as well as Belichick, but I do know he’d still be a Super Bowl winner. We have that evidence. Would Belichick have won ONE Super Bowl without Tom Brady? His record without the QB suggests otherwise. 

[Punching Bag]

33 minutes ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

He's gone.

 

I don't think there's any need to pile on

 

Since he piled on for multiple years I will continue to remind people that he has not proven he could not due to without cheating and help from zebras (i.e. Tuck Rule, "just give it to them", instructing players to laydown on Bills receivers to slow down hurry up).

 

When he dies I plan on posting comments on evert obituary site I see.

[julian]

Greatest defensive coach of all time and a 1st ballot HOFer QB = 6 titles

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

 

I mean this is true for any great HC in history.  Never seen a great HC have a long and great career without a QB.  Why people want to discredit BB solely is always puzzling to me.  Jimmy Johnson was sensational in Dallas and was so meh in Miami that people barely remember he coached there.  Andy Ried was a "choker" in Philly and now an all time great with Mahomes.  The list like this is miles long.  

 

In very rare circumstances, you can win a SB with a sub par QB if the rest of the team is elite like the Ravens did with Dilfer.  But sustained success and multiple SB wins like BB has is only accomplished if he has a QB.  Many great coaches have been just ok, pedestrian, forgettable, or outright bad when they no longer had a QB either because the QB retired or the coach was now coaching elsewhere.  

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

People act like every SB was because of Brady. They were not. Brady was mostly a game manager for the first 2. Those teams were powered by a great defense and HOF kicker. You have to give Bellichick some credit as much as I hate that guy. His defense held the greatest show on Turf to 17 points. And the most boring SB of all time #53 he held the high powered Rams once again to 3 points. Defense wins championships and I still believe that to this day which is why I think the Bills have a strong possibility to win it all this year. 

[Alphadawg7]

47 minutes ago, Brand J said:

Probably a better defensive coordinator than HC, but Brady is the engine that made the Pats go. I’m not saying Belichick was just along for the ride, clearly his defensive schemes posed a problem for just about every team, but without Brady and his ice water veins Belichick would be just another sub 500 head coach.

What would Brady be without Belichick? Maybe he wouldn’t have won as many rings because his coach wouldn’t have schemed up the defense as well as Belichick, but I do know he’d still be a Super Bowl winner. We have that evidence. Would Belichick have won ONE Super Bowl without Tom Brady? His record without the QB suggests otherwise. 

 

But what is Bill Walsh legacy if he doesnt have Montana and has a series of scrubs at QB?  I mean this is a silly notion...QB is the most important position in all of team sports, of course a HC needs a QB to have sustained high level success.  What BB did over and over in NE with rosters that most coaches would have struggled to get into the playoffs let alone make 9 SB's winning 6 is astonishing and may never happen again.  

 

He still won 11 games with a QB who literally had not started a game since high school.  

 

BB may be hated, be he gets his flowers as a HC and is without question one of the GOAT's if not the GOAT.

[SoMAn]

Brady won Super Bowl without Belichick. Belichick never had success post-Brady. 

End of debate. 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

 

And what, 1-2 in the playoffs, with a sole unimpressive wild-card round win over Bledsoe's Patriots before he got there and two blowout losses.  

 

 

1 hour ago, JakeFrommStateFarm said:

He's gone.

 

I don't think there's any need to pile on

 

Aww, come on ... 

 

 

 

 

[C.Biscuit97]

I was once laughed at because I said Belichick was dick Jauron without Brady. Maybe I overstated it but Jauron’s wining % was 42.3 with Miller, Matthews, Edwards. 
 

many geniuses get laughed at because they are simply ahead of their time. 

[Mr. WEO]

won a a playoff game Vinny Testaverde, Leroy Hoard, Derrick Alexander 4 years after taking over a 3-13 team.  It would be their only win for the next 23 years. 

 

Lots of posters here saying it was mostly Brady.  How many were saying that after the first 1 or 2 SB wins?

[Matt_In_NH]

Anyone who thinks all you need is a great QB and poof you go to 10 SB's, win 6 has no idea about NFL football.   I hated the evil empire as much as anyone but it takes a total organization to have that level or success in addition to the QB.,

1 hour ago, Brand J said:

Probably a better defensive coordinator than HC

You obviously never watched any of their games.  Maybe you can say the game has passed him by to some degree today but to suggest he is not a good HC is silly.   You don't have to like him...

Edited January 12 by Matt_In_NH

[SageAgainstTheMachine]

Somehow it must be human nature to take things that are hugely multi-faceted and try boiling them down to one factor.  What itch does it scratch to determine which aspect of the Patriots dynasty really mattered?  They all mattered. (Including being the luckiest team in the playoffs over and over, but that's neither here nor there...)

 

A couple years ago when we eviscerated the Pats in the playoffs the thing people don't acknowledge is that that was a 3-14 quality roster than went 10-7. 

 

Just listen to anyone in the actual football world talk about Belichick.  They revere him, including those who have good reasons to hate him. 

[C.Biscuit97]

12 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

won a a playoff game Vinny Testaverde, Leroy Hoard, Derrick Alexander 4 years after taking over a 3-13 team.  It would be their only win for the next 23 years. 

 

Lots of posters here saying it was mostly Brady.  How many were saying that after the first 1 or 2 SB wins?

he won one playoff game 30 years??? Clearly, it was all Belichick then!!!

 

Fun fact, Vinny won more playoff games without Belichick than Belichick won without Brady! 

28 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But what is Bill Walsh legacy if he doesnt have Montana and has a series of scrubs at QB?  I mean this is a silly notion...QB is the most important position in all of team sports, of course a HC needs a QB to have sustained high level success.  What BB did over and over in NE with rosters that most coaches would have struggled to get into the playoffs let alone make 9 SB's winning 6 is astonishing and may never happen again.  

 

He still won 11 games with a QB who literally had not started a game since high school.  

 

BB may be hated, be he gets his flowers as a HC and is without question one of the GOAT's if not the GOAT.

The Matt Cassel season is the most overrated in history. It was an undefeated team (until the SB!) and lost 5 more games the next year. That’s a huge drop off (if we do that next year, we’re 6-11). 
 

compared that to Brady literally winning a SB the next year without him on a team that missed the playoffs the year before. 
 

obviously, Belichick did some great, innovative things but it’s pretty clear he’s not some elite mastermind who can win with anyone. He needs to go to a situation with a QB and weapons in place where he can just oversee the team. 

[Buffalo03]

2 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

Great QB. The best QB of all time. I have said this point MILLIONS of time at nauseum with tons of people. No matter what proof you give, the Belichick d*ck riders will always defend him. They just can't get past it

[FilthyBeast]

2 hours ago, Dubie54 said:

Taken as a whole Belichick's, overall record is impressive, but when you look at the one variable, (TB12) that has impacted his record, it's a little less impressive. 

 

With TB12:                                  249-75 (.769)

Without TB12, incl. Cleve.:         83-104 (.449)

 

Impossible to say how he would have fared in NE if they had not drafted TB12 in the 7th round, but one thing is for sure, he would not have had the success he has had. 

 

Great coach or great QB?

 

Where would Reid be without Mahomes/McNabb?

 

McD without Allen?

 

Obviously Brady was a major factor in Belichik's success and 6 SB rings, but the situation is what it is and still think there's no real debate that he's the GOAT and it was the perfect match for the greater part of 2 decades in Foxboro.

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, julian said:

Greatest defensive coach of all time and a 1st ballot HOFer QB = 6 titles

 

Unanimous Hall of Cheating nominee.

 

Some don't seem to care about cheating even when it is done to Bills by their heroes.

6 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

Great QB. The best QB of all time. I have said this point MILLIONS of time at nauseum with tons of people. No matter what proof you give, the Belichick d*ck riders will always defend him. They just can't get past it

 

Same thing for the Br*dy d*ck riders.

[C.Biscuit97]

3 minutes ago, FilthyBeast said:

 

Where would Reid be without Mahomes/McNabb?

 

McD without Allen?

 

Obviously Brady was a major factor in Belichik's success and 6 SB rings, but the situation is what it is and still think there's no real debate that he's the GOAT and it was the perfect match for the greater part of 2 decades in Foxboro.

McDermott made the playoffs in his first year without Allen. He actually had a worst record in their first year together.

 

And Reid has worked with many qbs and had success. Obviously, Mahomes is a different animal but Reid has been way more successful with other qbs than BB.

 

Tom Brady literally won a a SB with a team that missed the playoffs the year before in his first year without BB. 

[Punching Bag]

31 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

Anyone who thinks all you need is a great QB and poof you go to 10 SB's, win 6 has no idea about NFL football.   I hated the evil empire as much as anyone but it takes a total organization to have that level or success in addition to the QB.

 

Cheating makes it so much easier.

[Brand J]

42 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

But what is Bill Walsh legacy if he doesnt have Montana and has a series of scrubs at QB?  I mean this is a silly notion...QB is the most important position in all of team sports, of course a HC needs a QB to have sustained high level success.  What BB did over and over in NE with rosters that most coaches would have struggled to get into the playoffs let alone make 9 SB's winning 6 is astonishing and may never happen again.  

 

He still won 11 games with a QB who literally had not started a game since high school.  

 

BB may be hated, be he gets his flowers as a HC and is without question one of the GOAT's if not the GOAT.

 

23 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

You obviously never watched any of their games.  Maybe you can say the game has passed him by to some degree today but to suggest he is not a good HC is silly.   You don't have to like him...

We’ve got no proof how another coach would’ve fared with the greatest QB of all time and those defensive rosters Belichick had to work with. To say that most would’ve “struggled to make the playoffs?” Based on what evidence? What other squads in the history of the NFL that had a 1st team All Pro QB who's also a first ballot HOFer, struggled to make the playoffs?
 

I never said Belichick wasn’t a good coach, obviously he is, but he is also a sub 500 coach without Tom Brady. Two things can be true. Is that subpar record indicative of his coaching abilities? Or is it reflective of the lack of an all time great at QB? I think we all know that answer.
 

Belichick has his flowers, I just don’t think he’s the greatest head coach of all time. That’s to say that no other coach in the history of the league would've been able to replicate the success he had with one Tom Brady.