Where are you at this brand new “No running Josh” ?

[Italian Bills]

After three to four years where Josh piled yards with his freaking athleticism, this season, in this first six games, his game is pretty different, very less runs (almost none even where some good opportunities come) and more of a pocket passer if not when he must escape from a sack, but also in this cases, he try to find someone open in a broken play and if none is free, then he wisely throws an incomplete. 
 

Now, i know that most of us were asking for less runs to avoid injuries first and then fumbles, but isn’t too much a change right now ? 
 

it seem that defenses know that he won’t run anymore so their job is a lot easier now. 
 

Maybe adding some good run here and there during every game would keep other D honest and would open the field for our guys. 
 

What you think ? 
 

And what about Josh ? Do you think he’s 100% ok with this new concept or maybe he would just want to be the “real” Josh when chances come ?

Edited October 17, 2023 by Italian Bills

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

I hope he runs without any hesitation at all in the postseason that’s for damn sure.

[Gregg]

The Bills are doing a better job running the ball this year without Allen having to do the running. After last season Allen said it himself that he can't continue taking the hits if he wants to play in the league a long time. Look at what happened to Cam Newton.

[Charles Romes]

The negative is that defenses are preparing for a non-running Allen, which is easier. 

[dave mcbride]

Haven't all of Allen's injuries, including the shoulder on Sunday night, come from plays in the pocket? And weren't almost all of Newton's injuries pocket-based? 

[zow2]

I'm worried that the shoulder is hurting more than he will admit.  Last year they brushed off the elbow injury but it clearly was an issue and needed rest.

 

So to that end he can run all day, just avoid contact please.  And the Bills should try to grind out some rushing attack vs NE and Tampa.  Running and some quick efficient passing and play action might be their strong suit now.

[HOUSE]

How many times was Josh injured running vs in the pocket?

Run Josh run....

[Goin Breakdown]

It sucks

[Big Turk]

I think Allen is not running at times almost to a fault, which is in some ways holding the offense back...

 

There have been multiple times where huge areas of green are in front of him to exploit but he chooses to throw a low percentage pass instead and those usually don't get completed.  

 

I get him not wanting to run as much, but there is a difference between running just to run and running when it's the best play available.  Allen too often is now not running when it's the best play available and when he is near the sidelines and could easily outrun the defender and get out of bounds to avoid a hit.  

 

Seems like he has over-corrected in the other direction and gone from running maybe a little too much to maybe running not frequently enough(when it's the best play available).  Hoping he finds a middle ground as the season goes on.

[oldmanfan]

Run when necessary, but slide.

[Italian Bills]

30 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

Haven't all of Allen's injuries, including the shoulder on Sunday night, come from plays in the pocket? And weren't almost all of Newton's injuries pocket-based? 

 

13 minutes ago, Bogie_Klinkhammer said:

How many times was Josh injured running vs in the pocket?

Run Josh run....

Yes because when you are sacked or when you get the hit just after you released the football, contacts are like heavy a train, when you run the body is more prepared to contacts and can reduce the impact’s effect. 

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

I think Allen is not running at times almost to a fault, which is in some ways holding the offense back...

 

There have been multiple times where huge areas of green are in front of him to exploit but he chooses to throw a low percentage pass instead and those usually don't get completed.  

 

I get him not wanting to run as much, but there is a difference between running just to run and running when it's the best play available.  Allen too often is now not running when it's the best play available and when he is near the sidelines and could easily outrun the defender and get out of bounds to avoid a hit.  

 

Seems like he has over-corrected in the other direction and gone from running maybe a little too much to maybe running not frequently enough(when it's the best play available).  Hoping he finds a middle ground as the season goes on.

Exactly my point. 
 

Take the few chances that come to you to run and then you can protect yourself by sliding or coming out of bounds. 
 

It seem that he really decided to not run anymore if not when he has to avoid a sack, he doesn’t consider anymore the run like an option. 

[Trogdor]

23 minutes ago, NUT said:

It will work if the receivers stop dropping the damn ball.

The bills have 4 drops on the year and are near the bottom of the league in that category. It doesn't seem to make a difference because the open guy isn't getting the ball even against stacked boxes. 

[Chaos]

Niether the botched overtime against the Jets, nor the loss to the Jags had anything do with Josh not running.   Its more fun to watch Josh running, but I am not sure it is less effective.   It will be interesting to see if there is a change in strategy against the teams we expect to score more points against us, like the Chiefs. 

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, Chaos said:

Niether the botched overtime against the Jets, nor the loss to the Jags had anything do with Josh not running.   Its more fun to watch Josh running, but I am not sure it is less effective.   It will be interesting to see if there is a change in strategy against the teams we expect to score more points against us, like the Chiefs. 

 

Disagree.

 

In both games our Offense would be totally different if Josh were running. On both called QB runs AND scrambles.

 

Historically, Josh getting a couple runs in and laying some lumber to the defense settles him down. Nothing is for certain, but I could see it breaking him out of whatever weird head-space he was in in New Jersey.

 

In London, the offense needed a spark and to find its identity. I fully believe Josh running answers both of those needs. Maybe a couple of called runs and a scramble or two to keep the chains moving is all that is needed to change a one-score game.

 

I've said it in a number of threads, but it's a numbers game. When Josh is running the Bills are +1 on skills guys the defense must cover. When he isnt running, the numbers sway back to the defense's favor and it's easier for them to cover and defend.

[The Jokeman]

I don't mind Josh running as long he isn't taking hits and honestly if he runs and slides he shouldn't be taking any hits. Hopefully we see it more as the weather gets worse. 

[ddaryl]

There has been a dozen times this season where I thought Josh should of taken the 5 to 8 yds in front of him and slide. The sliding issue has been the issue and the trying to much. But I would like ot see him take those yards when they are there.

But he also doesn't seemed to be dialed into the X's and O's that Dorsey draws up for him. He is best when a play breaks down. Last few weeks I've seen Josh trying to squeeze the short underneath game in triple coverage. SO either the X's and O's are not drawn up correctly or Josh does not recognize the open man when he surveils the D before the snap in regards to the quick passing game

[T master]

3 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

After three to four years where Josh piled yards with his freaking athleticism, this season, in this first six games, his game is pretty different, very less runs (almost none even where some good opportunities come) and more of a pocket passer if not when he must escape from a sack, but also in this cases, he try to find someone open in a broken play and if none is free, then he wisely throws an incomplete. 
 

Now, i know that most of us were asking for less runs to avoid injuries first and then fumbles, but isn’t too much a change right now ? 
 

it seem that defenses know that he won’t run anymore so their job is a lot easier now. 
 

Maybe adding some good run here and there during every game would keep other D honest and would open the field for our guys. 
 

What you think ? 
 

And what about Josh ? Do you think he’s 100% ok with this new concept or maybe he would just want to be the “real” Josh when chances come ?

 

Josh is a weapon with both his arm & his legs Dorcey needs to put a few QB run plays in to keep the opposition guessing & that is the thing i feel they are not doing now.

 

I'm glad that Josh isn't running as much & that they have brought in some bigger backs which are doing well but Josh is a weapon that still needs to be utilized in all the ways he has proven he can be used . 

 

I do think they have pushed the pendulum to far to the other side & they need to let it come back a bit more on some designed runs for Josh .

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

40 minutes ago, Trogdor said:

The bills have 4 drops on the year and are near the bottom of the league in that category. It doesn't seem to make a difference because the open guy isn't getting the ball even against stacked boxes. 

 

4 seems unbelievably low, where is that number from ?

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-wr.php

 

Looking up individual players

Knox: 4 (yikes)

Diggs: 2

Davis: 2

Harty: 1

 

Doesn't look like they track RBs but Cook has at least 1 drop this season. That would put us at 10 for the year, which passes the eye test for me. No idea how it compares league wide. 

 

For Josh running the ball: I'd love to see more scrambles and bring the designed runs back. Josh has that 6th sense where he avoids big hits while running the ball. With a few exceptions he's the one delivering the energy of the hit not absorbing the energy from the defender. 

[Warriorspikes51]

We should be starting games with multiple designed Allen runs behind blockers outside the hashmarks on opening drives. 

 

This will get the offense ignited and bait LB's throughout the game 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Warriorspikes51

[DapperCam]

I’m fine with him running if he could slide or get out of bounds.

 

I’m hoping they let him loose in the playoffs.

[Chaos]

50 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Disagree.

 

In both games our Offense would be totally different if Josh were running. On both called QB runs AND scrambles.

 

Historically, Josh getting a couple runs in and laying some lumber to the defense settles him down. Nothing is for certain, but I could see it breaking him out of whatever weird head-space he was in in New Jersey.

 

In London, the offense needed a spark and to find its identity. I fully believe Josh running answers both of those needs. Maybe a couple of called runs and a scramble or two to keep the chains moving is all that is needed to change a one-score game.

 

I've said it in a number of threads, but it's a numbers game. When Josh is running the Bills are +1 on skills guys the defense must cover. When he isnt running, the numbers sway back to the defense's favor and it's easier for them to cover and defend.

I specifically mentioned the OT for a reason.  Maybe we would not have been in OT with more Josh running.  But that was not my point.  There is a bigger issue with the team not being able to close out games effciently. 

In London, the team looked completely unprepared on offense (same problem this week against the Giants).  I am not certain that Josh running more is the optimal answer to coming to games with a piss poor game plan, followed by piss poor play calling.   Allen's skills as passer are top 5% in NFL history.    A decent coaching staff would not have to rely on him running. 

[Trogdor]

20 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

4 seems unbelievably low, where is that number from ?

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-wr.php

 

Looking up individual players

Knox: 4 (yikes)

Diggs: 2

Davis: 2

Harty: 1

 

Doesn't look like they track RBs but Cook has at least 1 drop this season. That would put us at 10 for the year, which passes the eye test for me. No idea how it compares league wide. 

 

For Josh running the ball: I'd love to see more scrambles and bring the designed runs back. Josh has that 6th sense where he avoids big hits while running the ball. With a few exceptions he's the one delivering the energy of the hit not absorbing the energy from the defender. 

http://hosted.stats.com/fb/tmleaders.asp?type=Receiving&range=NFL&rank=232 and now I'm wondering where they pulled from. I assumed it was the difference between what we consider a drop vs what statisticians do. I know KC is the worst, but jesus Knox almost doubles the drop number. The biggest problem there is that his production is trash, the other TEs near him in drops are having much better seasons overall. If he had 4 drops or stats like LaPorta we would probably not focus on it. 

[MJS]

I've always advocated for Josh running. It is one of the things that makes him a weapon in the NFL. It is also something that helps spark the offense when things get tough.

 

Although, I do think it is good that Allen is learning how to play without doing it. That's important. Hopefully, after awhile he'll be able to find a balance and know when he needs to run to get things moving.

[Big Turk]

30 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

4 seems unbelievably low, where is that number from ?

 

https://www.fantasypros.com/nfl/advanced-stats-wr.php

 

Looking up individual players

Knox: 4 (yikes)

Diggs: 2

Davis: 2

Harty: 1

 

Doesn't look like they track RBs but Cook has at least 1 drop this season. That would put us at 10 for the year, which passes the eye test for me. No idea how it compares league wide. 

 

For Josh running the ball: I'd love to see more scrambles and bring the designed runs back. Josh has that 6th sense where he avoids big hits while running the ball. With a few exceptions he's the one delivering the energy of the hit not absorbing the energy from the defender. 

 

Can't be too many, Allen leads the NFL in completion percentage still north of 70%.

[Warriorspikes51]

Allen's rushing attempts through 6 games:

2020: 37
2021: 44

2022: 47

2023: 22

 I'd like to see 5 designed runs per game for him and the freedom to take off on other plays

[Dr. K]

3 hours ago, Italian Bills said:

After three to four years where Josh piled yards with his freaking athleticism, this season, in this first six games, his game is pretty different, very less runs (almost none even where some good opportunities come) and more of a pocket passer if not when he must escape from a sack, but also in this cases, he try to find someone open in a broken play and if none is free, then he wisely throws an incomplete. 
 

Now, i know that most of us were asking for less runs to avoid injuries first and then fumbles, but isn’t too much a change right now ? 
 

it seem that defenses know that he won’t run anymore so their job is a lot easier now. 
 

Maybe adding some good run here and there during every game would keep other D honest and would open the field for our guys. 
 

What you think ? 
 

And what about Josh ? Do you think he’s 100% ok with this new concept or maybe he would just want to be the “real” Josh when chances come ?

I think it's good that he is running less, and fewer plays are being called putting him at risk of getting destroyed by some linebacker or 300 pound DT. 

 

Doesn't mean he can't scramble or execute a called run play now and then. But not as a regular practice, hurdling people and getting lit up on the sidelines rather than go out of bounds. 

 

If he kept going the way he was going, the probability was he'd end up like Cam Newton, career basically over by age 31. 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Dr. K

[wvbillsfan]

3 hours ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

I hope he runs without any hesitation at all in the postseason that’s for damn sure.

That’s where I’m at. I don’t care if I see it in the regular season. Stay healthy and run when we need it. 
We don’t need it to be a playoff team. 

[Success]

I'm torn on it.  Sometimes when I'm watching the games, it seems like he's thinking too much - you can almost see the conflicting signals going on in his thought process, where his instinct is to run, but he's been told every day, "don't run!"

 

Based on that alone, it would be easy to say "let Josh be Josh," and just have him go back to what he's used to.  But, there is also a hope that as time goes on, it becomes a more automatic thing that he doesn't have to think about as much, and he can get into the flow of the game more easily.

 

That said - it has tilted too far in the 'no running' direction.  He needs to find a happy medium, where he runs like most other QB's - when it's there.

 

[Realist]

He needs to run when he has to, just avoid the hits. Slide, run out of bounds, whatever, just don't take players on head to head.

[Warriorspikes51]

Just now, Realist said:

He needs to run when he has to, just avoid the hits. Slide, run out of bounds, whatever, just don't take players on head to head.

I agree, but I don't know if the competitor in him will consistently allow it. He looks for contact or to embarrass defenders 

[SoCal Deek]

The problem is the offense isn’t designed to take as advantage of his THREAT to run. I don’t want plays called that our set up as runs. I want Dorsey to put him out in space and force the opponent to make a choice.

[LABILLBACKER]

2 hours ago, Charles Romes said:

The negative is that defenses are preparing for a non-running Allen, which is easier. 

Yes, their preparing for a non running Allen while the Bills OL still struggles for a 6th straight year.  When is this organization going to ever figure it out?

6 minutes ago, Success said:

I'm torn on it.  Sometimes when I'm watching the games, it seems like he's thinking too much - you can almost see the conflicting signals going on in his thought process, where his instinct is to run, but he's been told every day, "don't run!"

 

Based on that alone, it would be easy to say "let Josh be Josh," and just have him go back to what he's used to.  But, there is also a hope that as time goes on, it becomes a more automatic thing that he doesn't have to think about as much, and he can get into the flow of the game more easily.

 

That said - it has tilted too far in the 'no running' direction.  He needs to find a happy medium, where he runs like most other QB's - when it's there.

 

Totally agree...I've said this in several posts. He's gotta continue to selectively run but protect himself better. That "happy medium" is critical to the success of our offense.  If it slides way to one side or the other, the results will be bad.

[78thealltimegreat]

It’s obviously been coached out of him to not just take off like he’s Forrest Gump anymore. He needs to honestly save his ground game for later in the season against the likes of the Chiefs,Eagles, and Cowboys. Teams with really high level pass rushes which will force coordinators to have to implement a spy. This will work very well if someone other than Diggs can get open in the passing game. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

To me it comes down to does he run in the bigger moments or is he hesitant. We’ll have to wait and see.

 

He’s playing very efficient football right now but still is making plays out of the pocket. There’s only been one play I really thought he should’ve ran and it was week 1 on one of his INTs.

[Cheektowaga Chad]

If they are gonna keep rolling with Allen in shotgun they need to start having him run because that's what makes the shot gun formation dangerous with Allen

 

If not put him under center A LOT more 

[Fleezoid]

Josh needs to run more. He plays better when he breaks of a 15-20 run. Especially when he b**** slaps a defender!

[Italian Bills]

49 minutes ago, Chaos said:

I specifically mentioned the OT for a reason.  Maybe we would not have been in OT with more Josh running.  But that was not my point.  There is a bigger issue with the team not being able to close out games effciently. 

In London, the team looked completely unprepared on offense (same problem this week against the Giants).  I am not certain that Josh running more is the optimal answer to coming to games with a piss poor game plan, followed by piss poor play calling.   Allen's skills as passer are top 5% in NFL history.    A decent coaching staff would not have to rely on him running. 

Of course what you are saying is correct, even with all the designated runs you want, without improving our offense play calling, we are dead. 

[Buckets]

2 hours ago, Trogdor said:

The bills have 4 drops on the year and are near the bottom of the league in that category. It doesn't seem to make a difference because the open guy isn't getting the ball even against stacked boxes. 

They had 4 drops this week.

[Italian Bills]

43 minutes ago, Success said:

I'm torn on it.  Sometimes when I'm watching the games, it seems like he's thinking too much - you can almost see the conflicting signals going on in his thought process, where his instinct is to run, but he's been told every day, "don't run!"

 

Based on that alone, it would be easy to say "let Josh be Josh," and just have him go back to what he's used to.  But, there is also a hope that as time goes on, it becomes a more automatic thing that he doesn't have to think about as much, and he can get into the flow of the game more easily.

 

That said - it has tilted too far in the 'no running' direction.  He needs to find a happy medium, where he runs like most other QB's - when it's there.

 

I thought the same, Josh’s look sometimes seems lost… like if he’s thinking too much maybe not liking what Dorsey called. 
 

Right also that he has to find again the right balance between the old Josh and this one. 

[Boatdrinks]

Lots of voices calling for Allen to run a lot less the last couple years. Now the Bills offense is there , and voices are calling for Allen to run more. Isn’t this what they all wanted , to extend Allen’s career etc. ? It seems like the threat of Allen running opened up more opportunities in the passing game. If Josh running is what it takes to win just a single Super Bowl title , I’m all for it.