Did we do enough? I think we are getting there.

[78thealltimegreat]

We’ve talked about this many times but man it still amazes me how we only lost 3 games with arguably the most important unit on the team being a total crap fest. I think we made some nice upgrades this off season but man Allen keeps proving hes a generational talent as he shouldn’t have had to go this long before we started to seriously upgrade this unit. 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by 78thealltimegreat

[uticaclub]

They have made Oline moves in the past, they have just kept missing.

Edited June 28, 2023 by uticaclub

[RiotAct]

Inpossible to say right now.  I feel like offensive linemen, moreso than most other positions, have “up” and “down” years that most people didn’t foresee heading into the season.

[Don Otreply]

This upcoming seasons O-line is unlikely to be worse, so we got that going for us…, 

 

 

[Gregg]

On paper the LOS seems better on both sides of the ball. Hopefully Kinkaid has a good rookie season. But the division is harder, and the AFC overall is a tough conference.  Then there are injuries which can hit any team. The Bills should be in the mix for a championship but who knows how it will play out.

[AuntieEm]

7 minutes ago, RiotAct said:

Inpossible to say right now.  I feel like offensive linemen, moreso than most other positions, have “up” and “down” years that most people didn’t foresee heading into the season.

 

 

A lot of it is also how any ref crew calls a game.  We all see the missed calls or the calls that really should never have been called.  The trenches are where the refs really can influence the games outcome.  

[BADOLBILZ]

10 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

We’ve talked about this many times but man it still amazes me how we only lost 3 games with arguably the most important unit on the team being a total crap fest. I think we made some nice upgrades this off season but man Allen keeps proving hes a generational talent as he shouldn’t have had to go this long before we started to seriously upgrade this unit. 

 

 

 

According to PFF they addressed their interior OL problem with 2 OL that were bad in 2022 and two rookies.

 

I get that fans want to imagine that guys like McGovern, Edwards, Harty and Sherfield will all play SO MUCH better than they were last year because Beane's crystal ball has foretold it...........but they are just shots in the dark not an indication that they've surely made strides in those areas of weakness.

 

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Aaron Kromer had a bad year. Year 2 for Kromer and Dorsey should be smoother. Plus Saffold was a huge disappointment.

14 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

According to PFF they addressed their interior OL problem with 2 OL that were bad in 2022 and two rookies.

 

I get that fans want to imagine that guys like McGovern, Edwards, Harty and Sherfield will all play SO MUCH better than they were last year because Beane's crystal ball has foretold it...........but they are just shots in the dark not an indication that they've surely made strides in those areas of weakness.

 

 

If the OL improves the offense will likely got from 2nd to 1st.

Edited June 28, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[KDIGGZ]

The Bills have to keep reaching into the veteran scrap pile because whether anyone here wants to admit it or not they have had terrible drafts. How many of their 2021-2023 draft picks will start this year? The answer is likely ZERO

Edited June 28, 2023 by KDIGGZ

[BuffaloBillyG]

6 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

According to PFF they addressed their interior OL problem with 2 OL that were bad in 2022 and two rookies.

 

I get that fans want to imagine that guys like McGovern, Edwards, Harty and Sherfield will all play SO MUCH better than they were last year because Beane's crystal ball has foretold it...........but they are just shots in the dark not an indication that they've surely made strides in those areas of weakness.

 

 

The proof will come either way when the games kick off, for sure. Some things to consider.

 

1. Starting a statement out with "according to PFF" is pretty much like quoting Wikipedia as a source. PFF proves absolutely nothing and should be taken with a huge grain of salt IMO.

 

2. McGovern's strength is reported to be his pass blocking. Which was a huge weakness last year. Immediate pressure up the middle in Allen's face way too often. Being that he only has to be better than Saffold was last year...I think we can expect an upgrade. How much remains to be seen. Edwards spent much of last year injured, however prior to that was pretty solid under Kromer. It's logical to think he could have some bounce back. One of the 2 rookies was considered by some as the top G prospect in the draft. Gave up zero sacks in his college career and is a stout pass blocker. Again, reasonable to expect at some point him to be an improvement.

 

3. Harty and Sherfield are basically this year's McKenzie and Kumerow replacements. Being TD Jesus missed most of the year and McKenzie was at times a disaster...the bar there isn't real high for improvement, either. Now add in Kincaid as well to that mix and again, reasonable to believe the cumulative output will eclipse what we had last year.

 

While some (not directed at you) like to take the pessimistic approach and say that this changes aren't enough because they aren't already proven...other can see things from a different angle. And neither side is wrong...until the pads go on the games kick off and we see how everything blends together. What's interesting to me is that as a team coming off 13 wins, a top offense in the league and a perennial playoff team...we have a ton of competition for starting spots or meaningful roles going into this season. This should be fun!

[BuffaloBillyG]

3 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

The Bills have to keep reaching into the veteran scrap pile because whether anyone here wants to admit it or not they have had terrible drafts. How many of their 2021-2023 draft picks will start this year? The answer is likely ZERO

Spencer Brown and Groot are starters. They are out of the 2021 class. Elam and Cook will either start or see a pretty high snap share most likely with Benford getting a lot of time on the field as well. I think it would be foolish to write off Torrence winning a starting spot at some point this season if not week 1. Kincaid may not "start" but again, completely plausible he sees a high volume work load. And depending on the formation they line up in may "start" some as well. 

 

Your whole statement is overblown Yes, the Bills have missed on a some picks. But right there are SEVEN guys that either will start or have an impactful role on the team.

 

[BADOLBILZ]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

If the OL improves the offense will likely got from 2nd to 1st.

 

 

They *might* but it's definitely not "likely".   Way too many other factors could make that not the case.    No different than saying adding a player will make us win X amount more games.    Can't quantify it like that.

 

Or like Aaron Rodgers *might* return to being the league MVP now that he's away from the toxic relationship he had with Green Bay management.......and the Jets *might* then be a SB contender with Rodgers opposite last years #1 defense.  

 

I'm not just trying to point out the negative...........I mean, if Von Miller is back healthy or AJ Epenesa has a breakout year or Rousseau and Oliver make big improvements the Bills *might* have the best pass rush in football.   Could happen too.    

[Orlando Tim]

5 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Spencer Brown and Groot are starters. They are out of the 2021 class. Elam and Cook will either start or see a pretty high snap share most likely with Benford getting a lot of time on the field as well. I think it would be foolish to write off Torrence winning a starting spot at some point this season if not week 1. Kincaid may not "start" but again, completely plausible he sees a high volume work load. And depending on the formation they line up in may "start" some as well. 

 

Your whole statement is overblown Yes, the Bills have missed on a some picks. But right there are SEVEN guys that either will start or have an impactful role on the team.

 

I was going to argue with him but clearly he has no understanding of the Bills or football in general l, so why bother?

[Don Otreply]

26 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

According to PFF they addressed their interior OL problem with 2 OL that were bad in 2022 and two rookies.

 

I get that fans want to imagine that guys like McGovern, Edwards, Harty and Sherfield will all play SO MUCH better than they were last year because Beane's crystal ball has foretold it...........but they are just shots in the dark not an indication that they've surely made strides in those areas of weakness.

 

 

In which that all those positions are unlikely to be worse this up coming season,  one can argue that the odds of being better is a real thing, from what I have read of your posts you have a penchant to down play most personnel changes so your appraisal is not unexpected.  You could of course be correct in your guess, and then again, maybe not,  hope springs eternal for most fans. 

[HomeskillitMoorman]

19 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Spencer Brown and Groot are starters. They are out of the 2021 class. Elam and Cook will either start or see a pretty high snap share most likely with Benford getting a lot of time on the field as well. I think it would be foolish to write off Torrence winning a starting spot at some point this season if not week 1. Kincaid may not "start" but again, completely plausible he sees a high volume work load. And depending on the formation they line up in may "start" some as well. 

 

Your whole statement is overblown Yes, the Bills have missed on a some picks. But right there are SEVEN guys that either will start or have an impactful role on the team.

 

Most of the guys you mentioned are fringe starters though. I like Beane but that’s not a great 3 year crop if we’re being real. 

Edited June 28, 2023 by HomeskillitMoorman

[Buffalo_Stampede]

15 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

They *might* but it's definitely not "likely".   Way too many other factors could make that not the case.    No different than saying adding a player will make us win X amount more games.    Can't quantify it like that.

 

Or like Aaron Rodgers *might* return to being the league MVP now that he's away from the toxic relationship he had with Green Bay management.......and the Jets *might* then be a SB contender with Rodgers opposite last years #1 defense.  

 

I'm not just trying to point out the negative...........I mean, if Von Miller is back healthy or AJ Epenesa has a breakout year or Rousseau and Oliver make big improvements the Bills *might* have the best pass rush in football.   Could happen too.    

Our offense has ranked top 3 in points 3 straight seasons without a top OL.

They have ups and downs throughout every season. Saying they’re in trouble or going to be bad next year is a hot take. It’s not likely to happen unless Allen or Diggs miss games.

[Captain Hindsight]

I told my brother I want a big mean SOB with a big ass in the draft and we got one

[Billl]

53 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

According to PFF they addressed their interior OL problem with 2 OL that were bad in 2022 and two rookies.

 

I get that fans want to imagine that guys like McGovern, Edwards, Harty and Sherfield will all play SO MUCH better than they were last year because Beane's crystal ball has foretold it...........but they are just shots in the dark not an indication that they've surely made strides in those areas of weakness.

 

 

Exactly.  I've said it before, but if adding those guys are enough to fix the line and receiving corps, then why didn't these move get made last year during the season?  It's not like any of those players were so highly coveted as to be unattainable.

 

It's one thing to look at a bad line and assume you'd be significantly better by adding Quentin Nelson and Wyatt Teller.  Slapping Connor McGovern and a late second round rookie on it MIGHT work, but there's certainly no guarantee.  If it doesn't, it will be really easy to look back and say that Beane didn't do enough.

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

we only lost 3 games with arguably the most important unit on the team being a total crap fest

 

Pretty sure you can call PFF a total crap fest.    Maybe the OL was not as bad as some seem to think and that is how they went 13-3 and lost by a total of 8 points.

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 minute ago, HomeskillitMoorman said:

Most of the guys you mentioned are fringe starters though. I like Beane but that’s not a great 3 year crop if we’re being real. 

Not really. Most of the guys mentioned are in year 1 or 2 of their NFL career. I think it's fair to say they may end up fringe starters but you or I have no idea how guys like Cook, Elam or Benford will turn out in their second year. Or guys like Kincaid or Torrence will be this year (let alone next). Brown looked like a fringe guy last year, but had some solid play his rookie season. No saying how he will be this year if back to full health.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

According to PFF they addressed their interior OL problem with 2 OL that were bad in 2022 and two rookies.

 

I get that fans want to imagine that guys like McGovern, Edwards, Harty and Sherfield will all play SO MUCH better than they were last year because Beane's crystal ball has foretold it...........but they are just shots in the dark not an indication that they've surely made strides in those areas of weakness.

 

 

Ok but they really only need to upgrade Saffold on the IOL. Surely one of those guys will be better than Saffold. Can one of them beat out Bates too? Maybe and that would improve OL depth. There is a legit concern about RT. Will just have to see how he does this year. 

I'm of the belief Dawkins is on the downside but he has surprised me before. Would be good to see him play better than he did in 2022. Regardless they have to draft OT in round 1 or 2 next year 

Edited June 28, 2023 by Ethan in Cleveland

[The Jokeman]

Let's also remember now that we have Kincaid we can keep Knox in more to block which realistically help the O-line too as not sure that guys we had behind Knox last year were better blockers. Also Damien Harris has been a good pass blocking back in the past, rating 1st overall in 2000. etc.  So we shouldn't just focus on the O-line when talk about blocking. 

[BillsShredder83]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Spencer Brown and Groot are starters. They are out of the 2021 class. Elam and Cook will either start or see a pretty high snap share most likely with Benford getting a lot of time on the field as well. I think it would be foolish to write off Torrence winning a starting spot at some point this season if not week 1. Kincaid may not "start" but again, completely plausible he sees a high volume work load. And depending on the formation they line up in may "start" some as well. 

 

Your whole statement is overblown Yes, the Bills have missed on a some picks. But right there are SEVEN guys that either will start or have an impactful role on the team.

 

Shakir is interesting as well. Year 2 earns a lot more trust with this staff, and we saw flashes. Nobody is saying any of these guys are 100catch, 1000yrds, but they dont need to be that to upgrade the offense. Reall hoping were more efficient, quick, methodical, dink dunk drives. Theres no reason we shouldnyt excel at it. I dont want boom or bust offense. Methodical, reliable style , that can be replicated week to week. Not this HR or strike out BS from last year

[The Jokeman]

8 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

The crazy thing is this is probably the most they’ve attempted to upgrade the offense since the 2020 off-season… and it’s still somewhat of a lackluster attempt. 
 

 

Say what you want but the salary cap does exist to a degree as if Josh was on his rookie deal you better believe we'd see even better players added. 

[Rico]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

According to PFF they addressed their interior OL problem with 2 OL that were bad in 2022 and two rookies.

 

I get that fans want to imagine that guys like McGovern, Edwards, Harty and Sherfield will all play SO MUCH better than they were last year because Beane's crystal ball has foretold it...........but they are just shots in the dark not an indication that they've surely made strides in those areas of weakness.

 

 

The only improvement that I can definitely see happening comes from Josh being further removed from his injury. I’m optimistic about all the new blood + Cook + Shakir, but everything is ‘if’s  and ‘maybe’s to me, at this point anyways.

[maddenboy]

did we do enough What, exactly?

 

getting Where, exactly?

 

Did the team improve?  maybe, but that should not be the question.
 

Did we do enough to Win the Superbowl This Year.  I know the implied question is this.  But way more specifically, did we improve this unit enough to win it all?  And is this even the best question to ask?   I dont think it is.  

 

I'm not convinced that even if we swapped offensive lines with the Chiefs, or Bengals, or Eagles, or Niners, that we could beat any of them.

 

We need weapons.  And we need playmakers on Defense (who do actually make plays.  Besides Milano.   We do have good players.)

 

give me both of these, even with last year's O-Line, and we win this year (because one without the other is not gonna win this team a superbowl This year.  But weapons is the way more important of the two.  we are wasting a generational talent).

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by maddenboy

[78thealltimegreat]

3 minutes ago, maddenboy said:

did we do enough What, exactly?

 

getting Where, exactly?

 

Did the team improve?  maybe, but that should not be the question.
 

Did we do enough to Win the Superbowl This Year.  I know the implied question is this.  But way more specifically, did we improve this unit enough to win it all?  And is this even the best question to ask? 

 

I dont think it is.   I'm not convinced that even if we swapped offensive lines with the Chiefs, or Bengals, or Eagles, or Niners, that we could beat any of them.

 

We need weapons.  And we need playmakers on Defense (who do actually make plays.  Besides Milano.   We do have good players.)

 

give me both of these (because one without the other is not gonna win this team a superbowl This year).

Oh geez we’d role the 49ers before they went on their vaunted win streak they played the same Chiefs team at home that the Bills played and beat in KC a week earlier and KC let up or they could have laid 50 on them. The Eagles had the easiest schedule in the league last year and we can definitely play with them .  

The only team that there is a question mark about is the Bengals that’s who their rival really is now. 

[maddenboy]

14 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

Oh geez we’d role the 49ers before they went on their vaunted win streak they played the same Chiefs team at home that the Bills played and beat in KC a week earlier and KC let up or they could have laid 50 on them.

 

The Eagles had the easiest schedule in the league last year and we can definitely play with them .  

 

The only team that there is a question mark about is the Bengals that’s who their rival really is now. 

I disagree with each of your points.

 

I'm not sure what the first one even means, but how do you propose to stop the Niners offense if we swapped? 

 

We would Not beat the Eagles if we swapped offensive lines.  Their defenders actually make plays.  Their weapons are better than ours.

 

But i dont care about rivals.   I care about winning the superbowl This year.   I'm not talking about the next 5-10 years.  And even still, if we swapped O-line with the Bengals this year, do we Win the Superbowl this year?  I dont think so.  because we still wouldnt have weapons needed nor playmakers needed.

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by maddenboy

[mrags]

2 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

The Bills have to keep reaching into the veteran scrap pile because whether anyone here wants to admit it or not they have had terrible drafts. How many of their 2021-2023 draft picks will start this year? The answer is likely ZERO

Rousseau 

Spencer Brown

Elam or Benford will likely start

Cook will start

 

there’s a likely possibility that Williams or Bernard will start

 

Kincaid will be TE 1B or slot wr

 

Torrence is likely to start

 

 

 

 

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, KDIGGZ said:

The Bills have to keep reaching into the veteran scrap pile because whether anyone here wants to admit it or not they have had terrible drafts. How many of their 2021-2023 draft picks will start this year? The answer is likely ZERO

 

[ngbills]

3 hours ago, uticaclub said:

They have made Oline moves in the past, they have just kept missing.

This. The moves are not drastically different than in the past. None of them are of the "sure thing" variety. We really wont know until we see them in action. 

 

My issue is that while the OL has clearly had issues and made things more difficult. I would not say it is what will take this team over the top, it is more of the stability level and make the offense work less hard, take pressure off Allen, etc. I am more worried about two things that are important come playoffs:

1) Weapons - If Diggs is shut down what is our answer. 

2) Rushing the QB - Need a healthy Miller and someone else to step up (Floyd, Groot, Oliver). 

[strive_for_five_guy]

Very excited to see what Torrence can bring to the table.

[ColoradoBills]

Evaluating the OL before the pads even go on in camp would be speculation at best.

My off-season number one hope was for improved OL play.  I will be watching for the camp reports with interest.

The 2 guard spots should have good competition for both starters and depth.

 

Fingers crossed that the entire unit stay relatively healthy, especially Spencer Brown.  He needs a good camp for any

chance for significant improvement.

[Process]

Literally impossible to be worse than Saffold, so the line will definitely be better this year.

 

Replacing Brown was a must though, IMO. 

 

IOL should be solid. 

[HOUSE]

I would say yes AFTER  adding DHOP

[I'm Spartacus]

I'm sick of speculating on our free agents and draft picks. We've had some bad luck recently. It's time for some of our acquisitions to become that "diamond in the rough", and become stand out NFL big time players. Why not the Bills? C'mon boys, break through to the upper tier now. We need you!

[AuntieEm]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Aaron Kromer had a bad year. Year 2 for Kromer and Dorsey should be smoother. Plus Saffold was a huge disappointment.

If the OL improves the offense will likely got from 2nd to 1st.

 

  I've heard it said kromer gets better results from players in their 2nd year in his system.  We will see on those returning and the new pieces might fit better.  Gotta think kromer had some input in the guys they brought in.

 

 

 

Edited June 28, 2023 by AuntieEm

[newcam2012]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

According to PFF they addressed their interior OL problem with 2 OL that were bad in 2022 and two rookies.

 

I get that fans want to imagine that guys like McGovern, Edwards, Harty and Sherfield will all play SO MUCH better than they were last year because Beane's crystal ball has foretold it...........but they are just shots in the dark not an indication that they've surely made strides in those areas of weakness.

 

 

I happen to agree with this grim take.

2 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

The crazy thing is this is probably the most they’ve attempted to upgrade the offense since the 2020 off-season… and it’s still somewhat of a lackluster attempt. 
 

 

They are restricted by the cap. All the moves have been nothing special on paper. A hope and wait and see. 

 

Of course, most here remain optimistic the moves with be successful. 

 

Based on the past its hard to do cartwheels of exuberance. 

[hondo in seattle]

Did we do enough?  Probably not.  We certainly don't have the best roster in the NFL. 

 

But it's a good roster - somewhat better than last season's squad, I think. 

 

And sometimes the best roster doesn't take home the Lombardi.  It's certainly not a certainty.  It's not even a probability.  But we have a legit shot.  

[newcam2012]

2 hours ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

Ok but they really only need to upgrade Saffold on the IOL. Surely one of those guys will be better than Saffold. Can one of them beat out Bates too? Maybe and that would improve OL depth. There is a legit concern about RT. Will just have to see how he does this year. 

I'm of the belief Dawkins is on the downside but he has surprised me before. Would be good to see him play better than he did in 2022. Regardless they have to draft OT in round 1 or 2 next year 

Dawkins is adequate but he's nothing close to being elite. I think this oline is slightly improved but nowhere where it needs to be to win a SB. 

 

The line play on both sides of the ball will likely be the demise of the team. 

 

The game is won in the trenches and once again Beane is playing "pin the tail on the donkey" with his acquisitions.