Help me understand the Ken Dorsey hate

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I like to think I understand the game and understand what I’m seeing on offense. I’ve disliked many OC’s the Bills have hired. When fans hated Daboll here I defended him because I liked what he was trying to. I don’t see many differences between Daboll and Dorsey’s schemes. There’s different personnel on the field, mainly Beasley out and McKenzie in. Very different WRs.

 

I look at redzone offense a lot as well. They were terrible in the middle of the season falling to 23rd in November but improved dramatically and ended up 9th overall.

 

So I ask you to please explain what makes Dorsey a bad OC? I didn’t like all the deep shots but it was later said that Allen’s elbow felt less discomfort throwing deep. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I should add that there is an offensive coach I was disappointed with and it wasn’t Dorsey. Aaron Kromer was a disappointment last year. I felt the OL took steps backwards.

[QCity]

His offense really doesn't seem to have an identity past "let Josh run around in the backfield like a maniac and wait for him to do something amazing."

 

He hasn't generated any type of running game (outside of our QB of course). We drafted him a shifty RB in the 2nd round with great hands but he doesn't seem to be able to scheme a RB screen game to take pressure off Josh. We doubled down and got him a proven pass-catching RB in Hines, but he quickly got relegated to special teams which is nice, but certainly not the reason we traded for him. When other teams start bracketing Diggs the offense starts to looks pedestrian and again reverts into "Josh has to do everything" mode.

 

I guess you can blame the offensive line for some of the issues but the takes of "it's just his 1st year!" are complete homer nonsense. If he just arrived in town last year that might hold some water, but he's been here since 2019 under Daboll's wing.

 

My contention is that if you gave Dorsey an OC job with anything less than a top-5 QB he would be fired within 2 years.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

We will know a lot more after this year. We don't know the play calls and what Allen should be doing in every given play. But we could all tell from starting with the second half of the Green Bay game to the end of the season the offense just never seemed in sync or smooth. Whatever you want to call it, something didn't feel right. But yet as you pointed out statistically the numbers were fine. 

It just felt that yards were hard to come by and scheming guys open for easy completions was absent. As you pointed out there were too many deep shots when they needed more move the chains underneath throws.  Yet they started well. So was that teams figuring out Dorsey, was that the elbow, was that bad o-line play? Probably all of the above.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, QCity said:

His offense really doesn't seem to have an identity past "let Josh run around in the backfield like a maniac and wait for him to do something amazing."

 

He hasn't generated any type of running game (outside of our QB of course). We drafted him a shifty RB in the 2nd round with great hands but he doesn't seem to be able to scheme a RB screen game to take pressure off Josh. We doubled down and got him a proven pass-catching RB in Hines, but he quickly got relegated to special teams which is nice, but certainly not the reason we traded for him. When other teams start bracketing Diggs the offense starts to looks pedestrian and again reverts into "Josh has to do everything" mode.

 

I guess you can blame the offensive line for some of the issues but the takes of "it's just his 1st year!" are complete homer nonsense. If he just arrived in town last year that might hold some water, but he's been here since 2019 under Daboll's wing.

 

My contention is that if you gave Dorsey an OC job with anything less than a top-5 QB he would be fired within 2 years.

Use of RBs was also a Daboll complaint. 
 

I dont see anything new. The Dorsey complaints are the Daboll complaints. The huge difference was redzone offense where Daboll was great drawing up plays. But this improved as the season went on so my complaint went away.

[Xwnyer]

My main issue with the offense is route running.  Who designs a play where three receivers are running routes all in same vicinity of each other.   We used very little presnap motion, rarely ran the jet sweep, no idea how to get rbs involved in offense catching ball or running.  

[Matt_In_NH]

The key to understanding is high and maybe unreasonable expectations.   At this point it is Super Bowl or bust.  Anything less will result in criticism directed to coaches and some players.   The bills were first in third down conversion percentage.  Near the top in yards and points.  But down the stretch it “looked too hard” and there is no “imagination”. Is what I hear.  Dabol was equally criticized Fido g his time here until his last game in KC.  People seem to not remember that and now think he was the second coming.  

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

Abuses valuable electronics? 🤔

[Buffalo_Stampede]

9 minutes ago, Xwnyer said:

My main issue with the offense is route running.  Who designs a play where three receivers are running routes all in same vicinity of each other.   We used very little presnap motion, rarely ran the jet sweep, no idea how to get rbs involved in offense catching ball or running.  

The first part for whatever plays you’re thinking of is likely a WR failure not a design failure. 
 

Im pretty sure motion rates were pretty equal between Dorsey and Daboll. Right about 14%. But I only saw one stat on that so it could be wrong.

[newcam2012]

1 hour ago, QCity said:

His offense really doesn't seem to have an identity past "let Josh run around in the backfield like a maniac and wait for him to do something amazing."

 

He hasn't generated any type of running game (outside of our QB of course). We drafted him a shifty RB in the 2nd round with great hands but he doesn't seem to be able to scheme a RB screen game to take pressure off Josh. We doubled down and got him a proven pass-catching RB in Hines, but he quickly got relegated to special teams which is nice, but certainly not the reason we traded for him. When other teams start bracketing Diggs the offense starts to looks pedestrian and again reverts into "Josh has to do everything" mode.

 

I guess you can blame the offensive line for some of the issues but the takes of "it's just his 1st year!" are complete homer nonsense. If he just arrived in town last year that might hold some water, but he's been here since 2019 under Daboll's wing.

 

My contention is that if you gave Dorsey an OC job with anything less than a top-5 QB he would be fired within 2 years.

I'd add in his offense with very elementary. He never really had a long term plan. One play was never used to set up another play down the road. 

 

He would abandon the run game from game to game or even half to half. 

 

Seemed like the offense lacked an identity, rhythm, and cohesiveness. 

 

It was clear his inexperience hurt the team. Lou A the Cinci D coordinator ate Dorsey up for lunch. 

 

Dorsey led Bills offense was statistically good because of Allen. Dorsey had little to do with putting the Bills in the best position to win. 

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

The simple answer is that fans need someone to blame.  It’s not Dorsey’s fault that:

-Beane thinks the offensive line isn’t worth investing and developing through the draft.

-Beane thought McKenzie or Crowder could replace Beasley

-Beane Can’t draft RB’s

-Josh refuses to play within the offense (which is good and sometimes really bad)

-Josh’s injury hampered the WR screen/quick game

-Davis caught 50% of his targets

Despite all of that the Bills ranked #2 in yards and points. 

We’ll see what Dorsey is made of this year because we’ve upgraded everywhere.  Last year had very little to do with Dorsey.  It’s the NFL, you can’t just scheme players open every play. 

[BuffaloBillyG]

I don't have anything against Dorsey. I think he did a fine job as a ROOKIE play caller. And that's also my issue. It's not with him as much as it is that I believe he was the wrong hire.

 

I much rather would have had them at the very least interview some guys with more experience. Instead we got a basic dog and pony show where they interviewed a couple other just as inexperienced guys before handing the job to Ken. It's like they didn't even try because that was who Allen wanted. 

 

But a team in that Super Bowl window isn't the place for a guy to do OJT as a coordinator. That's why there are teams like the Texans and Colts. Get experience in a lower expectation environment.

 

All that said I do believe Dorsey was handicapped a bit due to IOL play and the lack of a true TE2. Those have been addressed. I think he can improve his play calls. I would like to see him able to scheme guys open a bit. I would like to see him a bit more creative with routes. And he needs to adjust his gameplan with weather in mind a bit more.

[BillsFan2313]

No

[That's No Moon]

2 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I should add that there is an offensive coach I was disappointed with and it wasn’t Dorsey. Aaron Kromer was a disappointment last year. I felt the OL took steps backwards.

Beach chairs would have put up more resistance than his guy Saffold.

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

No hate here, and for a first year OC, it’s understandable that he would have room to improve. My issue always was that for a team that was/is squarely in its championship window, was the hiring of a rookie OC the best path forward?

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Something like: "I can't put my finger on it, but something didn't feel the same last year" 

[Fixxxer]

Dorsey could learn some patience. He throws too many haymakers but too little jabs. It's great that we can score in one play but there were times where we tried to win games in one play and that throws the rhythm off on offense. 

[billsbackto81]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I should add that there is an offensive coach I was disappointed with and it wasn’t Dorsey. Aaron Kromer was a disappointment last year. I felt the OL took steps backwards.

Sometimes a mechanic needs the proper tools. Outside of Dawkins and Morse there wasn't much in the toolbox.

 

Hopefully this year's add ons like McGovern, Torrence and Edwards will bear some fruit.

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I don't have anything against Dorsey. I think he did a fine job as a ROOKIE play caller. And that's also my issue. It's not with him as much as it is that I believe he was the wrong hire.

 

I much rather would have had them at the very least interview some guys with more experience. Instead we got a basic dog and pony show where they interviewed a couple other just as inexperienced guys before handing the job to Ken. It's like they didn't even try because that was who Allen wanted. 

 

But a team in that Super Bowl window isn't the place for a guy to do OJT as a coordinator. That's why there are teams like the Texans and Colts. Get experience in a lower expectation environment.

 

All that said I do believe Dorsey was handicapped a bit due to IOL play and the lack of a true TE2. Those have been addressed. I think he can improve his play calls. I would like to see him able to scheme guys open a bit. I would like to see him a bit more creative with routes. And he needs to adjust his gameplan with weather in mind a bit more.

 

I’ll add that the blame for hiring a rookie OC lands at the feet of two of the three people that most TBD posters refuse to criticize. So it’s easier to just blame Dorsey rather than consider that mistakes are being made at a higher level.

 

As for Dorsey, he probably has a bright future. He’s not there yet, but he did not do poorly for a rookie OC. I do question the relationship with Allen though. Mainly it is whether it allows for him to effectively coach Allen hard when needed. I should note that I see this issue with McDermott as well. He hasn’t reined in Allen when warranted either so why would Dorsey feel like he could do it?

[Mr. WEO]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I like to think I understand the game and understand what I’m seeing on offense. I’ve disliked many OC’s the Bills have hired. When fans hated Daboll here I defended him because I liked what he was trying to. I don’t see many differences between Daboll and Dorsey’s schemes. There’s different personnel on the field, mainly Beasley out and McKenzie in. Very different WRs.

 

I look at redzone offense a lot as well. They were terrible in the middle of the season falling to 23rd in November but improved dramatically and ended up 9th overall.

 

So I ask you to please explain what makes Dorsey a bad OC? I didn’t like all the deep shots but it was later said that Allen’s elbow felt less discomfort throwing deep. 

 

There's absolutely no reason this Offense should fall to 23rd and then struggle to finish 9th.

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The first part for whatever plays you’re thinking of is likely a WR failure not a design failure. 
 

Im pretty sure motion rates were pretty equal between Dorsey and Daboll. Right about 14%. But I only saw one stat on that so it could be wrong.

The biggest weakness Josh has is that he's a little slow to process what the defense is doing.  Daboll simplified the offense, and Dorsey has picked up where he left off.  The lack of complexity is likely by design in order to play to Josh's strengths rather than the inability of his coordinators to create something more sophisticated.

[Eastport bills]

He’s was a rookie OC, so there’s a learning curve. The offense became Joshcentric, with him being the leading rusher and going for big vertical throws instead taking what the defense was giving him. He certainly didn’t use Diggs in the playoffs because there were few targets and that’s unforgivable because he’s our best weapon on offense. Perhaps the weakness in the O-line entered into some of the play calling but when you struggle to score against Cinn or allow Miami with their 3rd string QB, to hang around with our stagnant offense sputtering, the OC has to take some responsibility. At least they dumped Frazier, because his defense the last 2 playoffs was ineffective.

[Not at the table Karlos]

2 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

My main issue with the offense is route running.  Who designs a play where three receivers are running routes all in same vicinity of each other.   We used very little presnap motion, rarely ran the jet sweep, no idea how to get rbs involved in offense catching ball or running.  

To add to this the reads at times were all over the place. They had Allen jumping from one side of the field to another then back. I think it was Greg Cosell that pointed it out on OBL. 

[nucci]

To me the passing game was inconsistent and it seemed Allen would look at primary target and if covered would then scramble and try to make a play. Could be Allen had no confidence in the OL but 2nd and 3rd receivers did not seem to be an option.  Now, that might not all be on Dorsey but that's what I saw.

[stinky finger]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I should add that there is an offensive coach I was disappointed with and it wasn’t Dorsey. Aaron Kromer was a disappointment last year. I felt the OL took steps backwards.

The offensive line TALENT was subpar?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, stinky finger said:

The offensive line TALENT was subpar?

Definitely LG. But that was his guy.

[BuffaloBillyG]

10 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

 

I’ll add that the blame for hiring a rookie OC lands at the feet of two of the three people that most TBD posters refuse to criticize. So it’s easier to just blame Dorsey rather than consider that mistakes are being made at a higher level.

 

As for Dorsey, he probably has a bright future. He’s not there yet, but he did not do poorly for a rookie OC. I do question the relationship with Allen though. Mainly it is whether it allows for him to effectively coach Allen hard when needed. I should note that I see this issue with McDermott as well. He hasn’t reined in Allen when warranted either so why would Dorsey feel like he could do it?

Here's the thing. I believe the Bills last year fell into the trap of human nature. For Allen, why wouldn't he want Dorsey promoted? I've had jobs in the past where my boss left and they hired for the position. Ten times out of ten I would take someone being promoted from within so I know my job is less likely to get hit with sweeping changes. The old saying "the devil you know" applies. 

 

For McDermott it makes sense as well. All the promotions he does internally lead to coaches wanting to work for him so they can climb the ladder. A guy like Joe Brady who may have designs on being an OC again can know with some sense of reality that he's got an inside track to the Bills OC job should an opening happen. 

 

As you said, Ken did just fine for a rookie OC. His arrow will likely keep pointing up as long as Allen is healthy. It wouldn't even shock me if he lands a HC position in the next 2-3 years if he's still here. But I think McDermott had a golden opportunity once Daboll left to bring in someone from the outside for a new voice in the room and a new perspective on how Allen could make improvements. 

[pocoboy]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I like to think I understand the game and understand what I’m seeing on offense. I’ve disliked many OC’s the Bills have hired. When fans hated Daboll here I defended him because I liked what he was trying to. I don’t see many differences between Daboll and Dorsey’s schemes. There’s different personnel on the field, mainly Beasley out and McKenzie in. Very different WRs.

 

I look at redzone offense a lot as well. They were terrible in the middle of the season falling to 23rd in November but improved dramatically and ended up 9th overall.

 

So I ask you to please explain what makes Dorsey a bad OC? I didn’t like all the deep shots but it was later said that Allen’s elbow felt less discomfort throwing deep. 

 

The early season Miami loss provided fans a lot of cannon fodder, probably was his worst-called game of the season, and was likely the point where he realized the honeymoon was over. Once you get on the bashing train, it's tough to disembark until there's a real obvious moment where brilliance can't be denied. Maybe we would have gotten that if the elbow injury hadn't hampered Allen so much.

 

I think the abysmal offensive performance against Cincinnati in the playoffs reinvigorated the feelings, but I do agree that the changes to the defensive coaching staff were more pressing. There were two games vs Cincinnati where clearly the defense was going to have no answer, and each of the losses last year save the Miami game had this feeling that no matter what the offense would do, the defense was going to fold it away (and even in a few of the wins). They definitely had their hardships as a defense, with Hyde and Miller being knocked out, White barely getting back from his knee, Poyer dealing with things most of the year, and just about every other mainstay on defense suffering from an injury at one point or another. But it seemed like Frazier had lost it - some of the secondary calls in crucial moments were just maddening.

 

But the defense never really eclipsed 13 seconds, and though they got that final stop against Mahomes last fall, outside of the first couple of games it seemed like they were a bend _and_ break defense more than anything.

Edited June 14, 2023 by pocoboy

[Royale with Cheese]

2 hours ago, Xwnyer said:

My main issue with the offense is route running.  Who designs a play where three receivers are running routes all in same vicinity of each other.   We used very little presnap motion, rarely ran the jet sweep, no idea how to get rbs involved in offense catching ball or running.  

He is not designing plays where 3 people are in the same vicinity.  Even little league coaches like myself know that.  That’s a mess up or miss communication.

 

I agree about RB’s not involved in the passing game.  But James Cook did average 5.7 ypc last year.  Not worried about our run game.

[Artful Dodger]

At important times during the season, the short to intermediate passing game would entirely disappear.  I'm thinking of a series, possibly in the Cinci game, where the Bills ran the ball for a couple of yards and then Allen threw two long passes to Gabe Davis streaking 30 yards down the field by the left sidelines.    The passing plays were identical and both resulted in incompletions.  Perhaps they thought they could fool the defense, but they went three and out.  I'm not sure how much of it is on Allen, but even if it is, it's up to the OC to sit him down and point out that it's possible to move the chains with short passes as well. 

[PBF81]

"Hate" is strong.  Dissatisfaction is more accurate.

 

When the primary complaint, by your own team, is that your QB runs to much, and when your two best RBs are near the top of the league in YPC, and yet you trail the other 31 teams in the league, by a wide margin, in using your RBs to run the ball, you create your own issues, or as the thread is strongly titled, you create your own hate.  

 

Play selection was also incredibly questionable often.  

 

And that tantrum with him throwing the tablet which was more representative of a 6-year old than of a professional coach, he doesn't help himself with that kind of stuff either.  

 

 

[BarleyNY]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

Here's the thing. I believe the Bills last year fell into the trap of human nature. For Allen, why wouldn't he want Dorsey promoted? I've had jobs in the past where my boss left and they hired for the position. Ten times out of ten I would take someone being promoted from within so I know my job is less likely to get hit with sweeping changes. The old saying "the devil you know" applies. 

 

For McDermott it makes sense as well. All the promotions he does internally lead to coaches wanting to work for him so they can climb the ladder. A guy like Joe Brady who may have designs on being an OC again can know with some sense of reality that he's got an inside track to the Bills OC job should an opening happen. 

 

As you said, Ken did just fine for a rookie OC. His arrow will likely keep pointing up as long as Allen is healthy. It wouldn't even shock me if he lands a HC position in the next 2-3 years if he's still here. But I think McDermott had a golden opportunity once Daboll left to bring in someone from the outside for a new voice in the room and a new perspective on how Allen could make improvements. 

 

I agree with all of that. I think the Bills had a situation akin to this: Company exec expectedly moves on. Employee who was being groomed to take their place is hired. But there is a huge project that requires a great deal of expertise is just getting underway and this exec will be the lead on it. I’m sure everyone can see the potential for problems there. 

 

I will give the Bills brass credit on this front though. they put in place a lot of experience at the positional coach level. It would be interesting to see how that worked out. I’d have rather seen one highly respected and experienced voice guiding Dorsey than several positional coaches with more experience than him reporting to him. Not that the latter didn’t or couldn’t work, but the problems that can arise in that situation are pretty obvious. 

[PBF81]

2 hours ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

The simple answer is that fans need someone to blame.  It’s not Dorsey’s fault that:

-Beane thinks the offensive line isn’t worth investing and developing through the draft.

-Beane thought McKenzie or Crowder could replace Beasley

-Beane Can’t draft RB’s

-Josh refuses to play within the offense (which is good and sometimes really bad)

-Josh’s injury hampered the WR screen/quick game

-Davis caught 50% of his targets

Despite all of that the Bills ranked #2 in yards and points. 

We’ll see what Dorsey is made of this year because we’ve upgraded everywhere.  Last year had very little to do with Dorsey.  It’s the NFL, you can’t just scheme players open every play. 

 

It could also be that they're both issues.  

 

 

1 hour ago, BuffaloBillyG said:

I don't have anything against Dorsey. I think he did a fine job as a ROOKIE play caller. And that's also my issue. It's not with him as much as it is that I believe he was the wrong hire.

 

I much rather would have had them at the very least interview some guys with more experience. Instead we got a basic dog and pony show where they interviewed a couple other just as inexperienced guys before handing the job to Ken. It's like they didn't even try because that was who Allen wanted. 

 

But a team in that Super Bowl window isn't the place for a guy to do OJT as a coordinator. That's why there are teams like the Texans and Colts. Get experience in a lower expectation environment.

 

All that said I do believe Dorsey was handicapped a bit due to IOL play and the lack of a true TE2. Those have been addressed. I think he can improve his play calls. I would like to see him able to scheme guys open a bit. I would like to see him a bit more creative with routes. And he needs to adjust his gameplan with weather in mind a bit more.

 

Which supports my theory, which I'm sticking with, namely that McD would never hire anyone in the role that has a chance of replacing him should things not go well.  Daboll's credentials were horrific, not merely bad.  

 

 

[BillsPride12]

I was no fan of Dorsey's playcalling last year and it felt like an immediate stepback from Daboll.  I think the Hate is coming from people associating the Diggs drama with him having it out for Dorsey but I think the Diggs drama goes much deeper than having it out for Dorsey.  Such an exciting offseason 

[ddaryl]

I think the fallings of last years offense is a multi headed Hydra

Rookie OC didn't have adjustments ready to go

Josh didn't see open receivers plenty of times and tried to thread the long ball too often

OL was horribly inconsistent 

 

FA and drafted rookies receivers/RBs had very little impact

 

 

[DrDawkinstein]

2 hours ago, newcam2012 said:

I'd add in his offense with very elementary. He never really had a long term plan. One play was never used to set up another play down the road. 

 

He would abandon the run game from game to game or even half to half. 

 

Seemed like the offense lacked an identity, rhythm, and cohesiveness. 

 

It was clear his inexperience hurt the team. Lou A the Cinci D coordinator ate Dorsey up for lunch. 

 

Dorsey led Bills offense was statistically good because of Allen. Dorsey had little to do with putting the Bills in the best position to win. 

 

Decent list.

 

The bold is probably my biggest issue with Dorsey.

 

The Offense was just so janky last year. There was a glaring lack of cohesiveness and just basic football 101 when it was needed most.

 

Way too often the Bills would be up 10-13 points with like 4-5min left. Not a huge, comfortable lead, but enough if you call one more drive correctly. And instead of draining the clock, it was deep shot, deep shot, sack, punt, and give the ball back with 4:30 left, now "only" up 10-13 points and set the other team up perfectly to comeback.

 

He just didnt seem to sense or be able to control the rhythm of the game.

 

I feel his personality and core energy is just to frenetic to effectively lead our guys, especially Josh who can quickly become "sugar rush Josh".

 

All that said, I do believe it can be improved with experience and hope/expect to see some improvements this year. But if they are still all over the map then it's time to move on. We're wasting too much time.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

He isn’t a bad OC. Dorsey in his first year ever was on par with DaBoll, who was in year 3 of his offense.

 

Dorsey had some issues that easily can be written off as first year mistakes, but he’s far from a bad OC and is no where near being on the hot seat. 

[Shanahan's Horseshoe]

45 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

It could also be that they're both issues.  

Could be but unless you reviewed the all 22 film for every game and actually understand modern offensive football it’s purely conjecture. 
What’s not is any of the points that I brought up including the #2 offense in football.  

[LABILLBACKER]

4 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I should add that there is an offensive coach I was disappointed with and it wasn’t Dorsey. Aaron Kromer was a disappointment last year. I felt the OL took steps backwards.

Yeah ole beach chair was underwhelming last year. I just don't know if we're ever going to get innovative scheming out of KD?

[Bulldog]

A team's offensive coordinator is often public enemy number one with a certain group of fans. No one thinks that they can play QB like Josh Allen, but It seems that a vocal segment of any fan base believes that they could also call the perfect play for any game situation.  I remember when a vocal minority of fans thought that Brian Daboll was the source of any & all team issues.