Help me understand the Ken Dorsey hate

[GoBills808]

 

2 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

feels like you said you understand what you are seeing but didn’t actually breakdown anything you thought he did well beyond a ranking improving. 
 

what do you think he excelled at schematically? 

effective route layering to get favorable deeper matchups

 

thought on a per drive basis tempo was good too, especially in short clock situations

[Peter]

20 minutes ago, Mister Defense said:

It seemed as if Dorsey had very little clue on how to successfully blend the running game with the passing game.  Greg Cosell, one of the most knowledgeable people on the NFL game, said that there was a lack of "synchronicity"  between the passing and running game, that they did not support each other. That is very significant criticism!  And I agree completely with that, as the running game seemed almost always to just be an afterthought, something he aught to do some time, rather than an integral part of the game. 

 

BUT the Bills could run the ball very well!  So, that's makes it even more unacceptable, as it was clear his lack of focus on the running game was not because the Bills showed they could not run the ball well.  Their starter, Singletary, averaged 4.6 yards a carry and Cook, 5.7.

 

That lack of a running game is unacceptable for an NFL coordinator, or a college coordinator, and put huge pressure on Allen to do it all himself.  We should thank our lucky stars he was not seriously injured playing in such a one dimensional offense, where he was the also the featured back.

 

Add to this the fact that the short passing and middle of the field passing game were horrible last year.  This part of the game is what had enabled Allen to become the quarterback he has become--and it was all but gone last year. 

 

Dorsey's perplexing offense put extreme pressure on Allen, now operating an offense without a viable running game and without a viable short passing game.  It wasn't Josh Allen who took a step back last year from the extraordinary quarterback we saw in the 2022 playoffs, but his offensive coordinator. Dorsey eliminated two vital dimensions of the offense, of any good NFL offense, and put all of the pressure on Allen, to do it without two vital parts of an NFL offense. 

 

If Dorsey shows the same tendencies this year the Bills will be an also ran again this year. Yes, they may have a very good record again, but their one dimensional offense will leave the high level coaches and defensive coordinators licking their chops again in December--and January.  If so, I believe Dorsey will be fired before Thanksgiving. Or should be. To me, Dorsey was the main reason the Bills got lambasted by Cinci, almost lost to the Dolphins, and did not make it to the Super Bowl. The only reason the Bills got as far as they did is because of their superstar quarterback.

 

Allen may be the most talented NFL quarterback of all time, but you cannot eliminate key components of the offense and expect him to lead the Bills to a championship.

 

 

 

 

 

Out of curiosity, do you know whether we had more rushing yards per game in 2021 or 2022?

 

Hmmm.

 

P.S. I do believe that we needed a better offensive line in 2022, but that is not on Dorsey. He could only play the cards that he was dealt.

[Mister Defense]

Just now, Peter said:

 

Out of curiosity, do you know whether we had more rushing yards per game in 2021 or 2022?

 

Hmmm.

 

P.S. I do believe that we needed a better offensive line in 2022, but that is not on Dorsey. He could only play the cards that he was dealt.

 

Look at the ypc of Singletarry and Cook.  The Bills could run the ball well, but did not do so in a way that enhanced their offense or took pressure off of Allen.  Hero Ball returned--because it had to, not because Allen wanted that.

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Peter said:

 

Out of curiosity, do you know whether we had more rushing yards per game in 2021 or 2022?

 

Hmmm.

 

P.S. I do believe that we needed a better offensive line in 2022, but that is not on Dorsey. He could only play the cards that he was dealt.

People have short memories or maybe just weren't paying attention closely

 

Dorsey's offense in his first year was superior to Daboll's

[Pokebball]

I didn't read the previous pages so pardon me repeating anything.

 

Simply put, IMO we didn't have any kind of serious threat in the slot last year. We tried to make up with with deeper routes, more slant and quick outs from the RBs, heck we even tried to run the ball more (which I think was part of the plan from the beginning). Absolutely no threat in the slot and DCs took advantage. Why else would we bring Beas and Brown back mid season?

[Nextmanup]

5 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Why else would we bring Beas and Brown back mid season?

We brought them back because the machine was broken, and they were desperate to fix it with the limited techniques that were available to them at the time.  The fact that those guys played on this team last night is a total indictment of the organization.  Never should have happened, or have needed to happen.

 

It didn't really do anything anyway.

 

 

[billybrew1]

15 hours ago, QCity said:

His offense really doesn't seem to have an identity past "let Josh run around in the backfield like a maniac and wait for him to do something amazing."

 

He hasn't generated any type of running game (outside of our QB of course). We drafted him a shifty RB in the 2nd round with great hands but he doesn't seem to be able to scheme a RB screen game to take pressure off Josh. We doubled down and got him a proven pass-catching RB in Hines, but he quickly got relegated to special teams which is nice, but certainly not the reason we traded for him. When other teams start bracketing Diggs the offense starts to looks pedestrian and again reverts into "Josh has to do everything" mode.

 

I guess you can blame the offensive line for some of the issues but the takes of "it's just his 1st year!" are complete homer nonsense. If he just arrived in town last year that might hold some water, but he's been here since 2019 under Daboll's wing.

 

My contention is that if you gave Dorsey an OC job with anything less than a top-5 QB he would be fired within 2 years.

KD did absolutely nothing to help the OL….in the modern game you need a quick passing game to deter pass rushers, we threw the quick passing game away practically. We attack the edges of the field and not the middle. We didn’t use Knox, Shakir, Hodgson or the running backs enough. We called runs into run Ds and threw passes into pass defenses. Always calling slow, long developing plays with little chance of success when you call them over and over. Few  misdirection plays.  There was a reason Daboll called the plays he did, they were all connected into a bigger plan. I didn’t see a method to KD’s madness. The O fell apart. Josh fell apart. Daboll left KD the best player in the world and now he isn’t the running (unless he returns to form.) I think KD could be the first coordinator fired this year, we’ll see…. We should be fine right out of the gate. There should be zero patience for a lack of success. Kromer should be ready to take over..,. I sure hope KD turns it around and makes it but there is no doubt that KD is one of the huge question marks for the Bills this season. We should see a quick and successful passing game right out of the gate. Josh did this before there are zero excuses. We should also have a stout run game and it too should be successful. We should have a very diverse complete offense this year. The only thing we lack is deep speed but we’re not slow by any means either…. IMHO, while we sure could an upgrade at #2 WR, Beane still has done an amazing job (Pegula really) rebuilding this team on both sides of the ball. This opening day 53 man roster should be much stronger than last season’s and we should be able to whoop the jets, imho…

[3rdand12]

5 hours ago, Gugny said:

I get all of that. 
 

But I think we saw a regression last season with Josh resorting to hero ball too much. 
 

I’m not concerned and I don’t think it ended up making any difference last year.  
 

I’m just saying that I believe people would be a lot happier with Dorsey if Allen took more high-percentage passing opportunities. 

And used the RBs in the pass game.
 Josh needs to use the horizontal game that Daboll preached.
There were so many factors at play here. And now its hindsight.
Josh did look deep pre snap. But often waited for Recs that did not get open and the short intermediate stuff was shut down.
 People would be more happy if Dorsey called a balanced offense. And Defenses would be less so.

 

its reasonable to expect better from the team this season up and coming. Experience and significant improvements on the lines etc. Be able to finish out a season with wrinkles still in the book for playoffs
 

Go Bills
 

[Gugny]

2 minutes ago, 3rdand12 said:

And used the RBs in the pass game.
 Josh needs to use the horizontal game that Daboll preached.
There were so many factors at play here. And now its hindsight.
Josh did look deep pre snap. But often waited for Recs that did not get open and the short intermediate stuff was shut down.
 People would be more happy if Dorsey called a balanced offense. And Defenses would be less so.

 

its reasonable to expect better from the team this season up and coming. Experience and significant improvements on the lines etc. Be able to finish out a season with wrinkles still in the book for playoffs
 

Go Bills
 

Preach, my brutha. 

[3rdand12]

1 hour ago, klos63 said:

sometimes it seemed like backyard football. Go deep and I'll try to hit you. Or just count on Allen to bail us out all the time.

That was my line way earlier in the thread. You are welcome

[3rdand12]

7 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Preach, my brutha. 

Hope remains eternal for Us. 

😉
 

 

[iccrewman112]

38 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

People have short memories or maybe just weren't paying attention closely

 

Dorsey's offense in his first year was superior to Daboll's

Allen was a shell of himself in year 1. One of the factors for Dorsey having a better offense in his first year. 
 

having an experienced top 3 QB vs. Allen as a rookie not quite fair to compare.

[Chaos]

12 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

There's absolutely no reason this Offense should fall to 23rd and then struggle to finish 9th.

Its a great skill to consistently succeed in lowering the benchmarks of success.  Many long careers are based on this simple strategy. 

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

There is no hate for Dorsey.

 

How can you hate someone who is incompetent?

[bmur66]

But is Ken Dorsey a leader of men?

[Cheektowaga Chad]

My biggest complaint with the offense was lack of adjustment, for example teams started to disregard the run game and have their front four pass rush seemingly every down no matter what; play action/rpo it didn't matter (Miami)

 

Where was the adjustment to that? 

[AZSanta]

The worst thing any coach can be is predictable. Dorsey was predictable and didn't seem to make many adjustments when plays weren't working. There was zero trick plays that I could remember. Not a lot of imagination to his game plans IMO. You have to keep the defense on their toes and Dorsey failed miserably at that. 

 

 

Edited June 15, 2023 by AZSanta
wanted to add some more context

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Became predictable and had some real head scratchers, but was his first year, hopefully gets better

 

 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

You know what’s funny?

 

This is likely Dorsey’s final year. He’s an undisputed elite QB coach, and potential to be a perennial top tier NFL OC. If his 2023 is like his 2022, even with the struggles included, he likely gets a HC gig somewhere. 
 

I’d love to revisit this thread this time next year to see what the consensus develops into. 

[klos63]

3 hours ago, 3rdand12 said:

That was my line way earlier in the thread. You are welcome

I thought of it last week though.

[Albany,n.y.]

Let's not forget how the WR group fell apart. We had to bring Beasley and Brown back when that could have never been the plan when the season started. 

[John from Riverside]

My main complaint is too many long ball throws
 

But

 

I don’t know how much that actually had to do with Josh Allen’s elbow injury, that we heard kept affecting his short throws

[BADOLBILZ]

17 hours ago, Shanahan's Horseshoe said:

The simple answer is that fans need someone to blame.  It’s not Dorsey’s fault that:

-Beane thinks the offensive line isn’t worth investing and developing through the draft.

-Beane thought McKenzie or Crowder could replace Beasley

-Beane Can’t draft RB’s

-Josh refuses to play within the offense (which is good and sometimes really bad)

-Josh’s injury hampered the WR screen/quick game

-Davis caught 50% of his targets

Despite all of that the Bills ranked #2 in yards and points. 

We’ll see what Dorsey is made of this year because we’ve upgraded everywhere.  Last year had very little to do with Dorsey.  It’s the NFL, you can’t just scheme players open every play. 

 

 

 

Pretty simple.........Dorsey was more consistently good than Daboll.

 

I totally believe that McDermott and Daboll didn't see eye-to-eye because Daboll had weeks where he just coached with his head totally up his own ass.   His squirrely, inconsistencies in 2021 season cost them home field advantage.    And the 6 point performance against the worst team in the entire NFL,  the then winless Jags, was maybe the worst OC'd game in Bills team history.

 

Dorsey was a first year OC.   He had notably less talent to work with than Daboll had the year before and his QB was injured in the second half of the season.   He did well but anyone who was paying attention knew that first year OC's don't win SB's.    He got shown up by Anarumo just like Daboll got shown up by Spags in 2020.........but if Dorsey had more weapons around his QB the result might have been different.   The Bills D couldn't get off the field against those Bengals weapons.    Beane let the WR corps deteriorate and it cost them dearly.

 

 

[jethro_tull]

me- don't have it. 

others- the temper tantrum? 

[Beck Water]

On 6/14/2023 at 10:25 PM, Albany,n.y. said:

Let's not forget how the WR group fell apart. We had to bring Beasley and Brown back when that could have never been the plan when the season started. 

 

You realize that's literal, not figurative, right?

 

1) Crowder on IR with broken leg

2) Hodgins lost to waivers when he was cut in a CB roster squeeze

3) Kumerow placed on IR for back surgery

 

So, Math. 

The Bills have 6 WR on their roster:

Stefon Diggs

Gabe Davis

Jamison Crowder

Isaiah McKenzie

Khalil Shakir

Jake Kumerow

 

plus, they have Isaiah Hodgins and Tanner Gentry on the Practice Squad who they have elevated periodically.

 

Now they have 4 WR on their roster:

Stefon Diggs

Gabe Davis

Isaiah McKenzie

Khalil Shakir

 

plus, they have Tanner Gentry on the Practice Squad, and when they elevated him it didn't look too good.

 

They just needed bodies that weren't in the infirmary, and the trade deadline was past.  So it was either grab someone off the sofa, or grab someone off another team's practice squad who needs to learn our offense and who may not "have it".  Sofa it was.

 

In hindsight, letting Hodgins go through waivers was a costly mistake on Beane's part.

Edited June 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[Beck Water]

On 6/14/2023 at 4:47 AM, Xwnyer said:

My main issue with the offense is route running.  Who designs a play where three receivers are running routes all in same vicinity of each other.   We used very little presnap motion, rarely ran the jet sweep, no idea how to get rbs involved in offense catching ball or running.  

 

This I think is legit.  The Bills evidently had some plays where they stacked Davis and McKenzie and they ran "double option" routes where they looked at the D and chose which route they were gonna run.  Then they had other option routes in the offense.

 

How to say this nicely?  It didn't work, and it kept not working.  I'm not sure who it was on, but they would typically end in the vicinity of each other (also seen with Shakir and other receivers) and I'm sure that is not what they were supposed to do.  Sometimes someone with better football knowledge, like The QB school guy, or Kurt Warner, would diagram and explain which route he thought was wrong, and what should have been run.

 

I was shocked the week before Minnesota when McKenzie was interviewed about Josh and said something to the effect Josh was coaching on the sideline, told him "I didn't realize you were running that route this way, can you run it like this instead?" "Ok, sure".  because there really should have been communication between Dorsey, Josh, and the WR coach (who then communicates to the WR), if it's too hectic for Josh to communicate to the WR directly during or after practice.

 

Anyway, the problem you call out continued all season and was never fixed as far as I can tell.

 

On 6/14/2023 at 8:44 AM, PBF81 said:

So Dorsey bears zero responsibility for running the ball using the RBs less than any other of the 31 teams, and by a country mile?  

Not sure one needs to watch the All-22 to see that clearly. 

 

Do you have a source for this stat, both for 2021 and 2022?

 

Thanks, would love to see that!

Edited June 18, 2023 by Beck Water

[SoMAn]

I think I can explain.

Most of the complainants are the post-millennials who aren’t content with anything less than instant gratification. 

 

Statistically, the Bills were a top offense, in spite of having a mediocre O-line, a very average TE room, and a single WR that posed much of a threat. 
 

side note: I think they may regret letting Singletary get away.  

[PrimeTime101]

On 6/14/2023 at 3:54 AM, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I like to think I understand the game and understand what I’m seeing on offense. I’ve disliked many OC’s the Bills have hired. When fans hated Daboll here I defended him because I liked what he was trying to. I don’t see many differences between Daboll and Dorsey’s schemes. There’s different personnel on the field, mainly Beasley out and McKenzie in. Very different WRs.

 

I look at redzone offense a lot as well. They were terrible in the middle of the season falling to 23rd in November but improved dramatically and ended up 9th overall.

 

So I ask you to please explain what makes Dorsey a bad OC? I didn’t like all the deep shots but it was later said that Allen’s elbow felt less discomfort throwing deep. 

how these boards have changed since this poll  

 

[OZBILLS]

He looks like he is a serial killer

[Since1981]

15 minutes ago, OZBILLS said:

 

He looks like he is a serial killer

 

Yeah, he looks like he’d be good with a chainsaw. Only one PROVEN body so far (MS Surface). 

[Don Otreply]

   Again there is no Dorsey hate, it mostly appears to have been a notable dissatisfaction with the former DCs inability to make functional adjustments when they were needed, this put undue pressure on the offense, and it got folk to grumbling about it.

 

   With McDermott taking over the DC responsibilities, and the additions Beane has made to the roster this off season I believe that the root cause of the actual problem has been addressed. 🤞
 

GO BILLS!!!

[Warriorspikes51]

If he is insisting on a more structured offense and not willing to use input from Diggs, that's a concern. 

[Beck Water]

23 minutes ago, Warriorspikes51 said:

If he is insisting on a more structured offense and not willing to use input from Diggs, that's a concern. 

 

There are many concerns.  But wanting to move towards a more structured offense with defined WR routes is a Good Thing, IMO.

 

And as for the reports that was Diggs issue which kept him out of Day 1 of mandatory minicamp, please consider:

1) Tim Graham said the one thing he could get out of his sources, was that the problem did NOT involve Dorsey

2) Bakari (Diggs agent) said to one of the insiders that Diggs had been meeting with Henry (WR coach), McDermott, and Beane

3) Allen said it was "not a football issue" but involved "teamwork" and "communication".  It's pretty hard to construe "a more structured offense" as "not a football issue".  Likewise Diggs wanting input into the offense.  

[Beck Water]

32 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

   Again there is no Dorsey hate, it mostly appears to have been a notable dissatisfaction with the former DCs inability to make functional adjustments when they were needed, this put undue pressure on the offense, and it got folk to grumbling about it.

 

   With McDermott taking over the DC responsibilities, and the additions Beane has made to the roster this off season I believe that the root cause of the actual problem has been addressed. 🤞
 

GO BILLS!!!

 

I think there is some Dorsey hate around here. 

 

Our offense did have a red zone problem for a rather prolonged stretch mid-season.  There are other aspects of the offense which are in need of improvement: the run game and how it meshed (or didn't) with the pass game, the usage of Knox, the over-reliance on Allen in the run game. 

 

Some people view these as the natural 'teething pains' of a first year OC.  Others view them as inexcusable because they believe a different, more experienced OC should have been brought in (ignoring the fact that if the new OC installed a different system with different terminology, it might have caused different teething pains - and never specifying WHO they believe this superior OC candidate would be)

[damj]

We didn't win the Superbowl.

 

Someone needs to be blamed.

[Don Otreply]

21 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think there is some Dorsey hate around here. 

 

Our offense did have a red zone problem for a rather prolonged stretch mid-season.  There are other aspects of the offense which are in need of improvement: the run game and how it meshed (or didn't) with the pass game, the usage of Knox, the over-reliance on Allen in the run game. 

 

Some people view these as the natural 'teething pains' of a first year OC.  Others view them as inexcusable because they believe a different, more experienced OC should have been brought in (ignoring the fact that if the new OC installed a different system with different terminology, it might have caused different teething pains - and never specifying WHO they believe this superior OC candidate would be)

I feel that it was folk just wanting KD to grow in his craft, it’s the impatience that gets in the way. Your points about the red zone, and play call sequencing are all valid, but I do believe that the words “hate” / “hater” are over used and by definition miss used, bothers me because I was born in 1959, and these damn kids no longer know what the word “gross” actually means, and yes this is a tiny “ get of my lawn “ moment. 😂

[BuffaloBillyG]

44 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

I think there is some Dorsey hate around here. 

 

Our offense did have a red zone problem for a rather prolonged stretch mid-season.  There are other aspects of the offense which are in need of improvement: the run game and how it meshed (or didn't) with the pass game, the usage of Knox, the over-reliance on Allen in the run game. 

 

Some people view these as the natural 'teething pains' of a first year OC.  Others view them as inexcusable because they believe a different, more experienced OC should have been brought in (ignoring the fact that if the new OC installed a different system with different terminology, it might have caused different teething pains - and never specifying WHO they believe this superior OC candidate would be)

My main issue with the Dorsey hire was simply this. They really didn't even seem to consider anyone other than Dorsey. They brought in 2 guys from the outside and a couple internal candidates. (Dorsey and rumor was Hall got an interview as well). None were experienced. It seemed a bit like the end game was always Dorsey and the other interv were just dog and pony shows, Rooney Rule requirements.

 

If they were going the inexperienced route, fine. If they went that route I was all for giving Kafka a look. I liked the idea of trying to pluck someone that worked under Reid much more than promoting a guy that has studied under the offensive juggernauts of Mike Shula, Ron Rivera and McDermott. 

 

Having said that, I believe Dorsey can still grow into the position and be successful. I can't say any OC would have done much better with the Allen elbow issue and IOL issues. Hopefully, he makes some adjustments, the upgrades to the IOL help and he has figured out what a screen pass is.

[ngbills]

On 6/17/2023 at 5:21 PM, Beck Water said:

 

You realize that's literal, not figurative, right?

 

1) Crowder on IR with broken leg

2) Hodgins lost to waivers when he was cut in a CB roster squeeze

3) Kumerow placed on IR for back surgery

 

So, Math. 

The Bills have 6 WR on their roster:

Stefon Diggs

Gabe Davis

Jamison Crowder

Isaiah McKenzie

Khalil Shakir

Jake Kumerow

 

plus, they have Isaiah Hodgins and Tanner Gentry on the Practice Squad who they have elevated periodically.

 

Now they have 4 WR on their roster:

Stefon Diggs

Gabe Davis

Isaiah McKenzie

Khalil Shakir

 

plus, they have Tanner Gentry on the Practice Squad, and when they elevated him it didn't look too good.

 

They just needed bodies that weren't in the infirmary, and the trade deadline was past.  So it was either grab someone off the sofa, or grab someone off another team's practice squad who needs to learn our offense and who may not "have it".  Sofa it was.

 

In hindsight, letting Hodgins go through waivers was a costly mistake on Beane's part.

Crowder was hurt in oct

Davis was battling injuries since Sept

Kumerow is more ST than WR

Shakir had minimal impact

 

They should have acted much sooner to bring help in the WR. It was lack of action not lack of options. 

[1onemangang7]

if they make him find a spot for Cook then you wont know how good the guy is til he's with someone else.  The Bills go as Allen goes til he doesnt have to carry the run game.  

[hondo in seattle]

On 6/17/2023 at 9:35 PM, SoMAn said:

I think I can explain.

Most of the complainants are the post-millennials who aren’t content with anything less than instant gratification. 

 

Statistically, the Bills were a top offense, in spite of having a mediocre O-line, a very average TE room, and a single WR that posed much of a threat. 
 

side note: I think they may regret letting Singletary get away.  

 

Statistically, we were a top offense in spite of having a BAD o-line...

 

This is true.  When I look at Dorsey's statistical performance and think about the challenges he faced, it seems like he did very well.

And yet when I watched games, I thought he could be so much better which his play-design, play-calling, usage of backs, etc.  

 

And, yeah, I know Josh had a UCL problem.  I still think Dorsey slumped in the 2nd half of the year and became more predictable.