How did the Patriots maintain a top team for 17 years?

[Success]

I thought it might be interesting to put our loathing aside and really analyze how they pulled it off.  What they did is what I want the Bills to do - dominate for many years, and as long as they have Allen at QB.

 

They didn't have the ebb & flow that a team normally has, even w/ a top QB.  Their window was wide open for most of those 17 years. They made 9 SB's, and probably should have made 1-2 more.  My own thoughts:

 

1) Obviously, Brady took less pay so the team could afford better players.  I still don't see that being as impactful as it's made out to be - he was still paid a lot.

2) Aging vet stars took pay cuts just to play w/ Brady. Will we see that w/ Allen?

3) The Patriots made very few investments in bigtime skill players.  Moss was the exception, not the rule.

4) One of the hallmarks of Belichick was letting players walk before they started to decline.  Almost exactly what we're looking at w/ Poyer.

5) Their biggest priority, year after year, was making sure the O-line was strong.  That's just what you do when you have a top QB.

 

Still, the run is somewhat mystifying.  Belichick was not a great drafter, which is usually needed once a QB gets past the rookie contract.  Superior coaching clearly played a part. I think BB got the best out of his players (which is something we aren't doing right now - we see players leave the Bills and perform better than they did here).

 

Thoughts?

[Gregg]

Brady the GOAT, Belichick the GOAT. Built a solid roster around #12. The Bills, Dolphins, Jets = Three stooges. Division was a joke as NE would usually have it clinched by late Oct/ early Nov. Because of it they usually had the #1 or #2 seed so they rarely had to play on WC weekend.

[dave mcbride]

15 minutes ago, Success said:

I thought it might be interesting to put our loathing aside and really analyze how they pulled it off.  What they did is what I want the Bills to do - dominate for many years, and as long as they have Allen at QB.

 

They didn't have the ebb & flow that a team normally has, even w/ a top QB.  Their window was wide open for most of those 17 years. They made 9 SB's, and probably should have made 1-2 more.  My own thoughts:

 

1) Obviously, Brady took less pay so the team could afford better players.  I still don't see that being as impactful as it's made out to be - he was still paid a lot.

2) Aging vet stars took pay cuts just to play w/ Brady. Will we see that w/ Allen?

3) The Patriots made very few investments in bigtime skill players.  Moss was the exception, not the rule.

4) One of the hallmarks of Belichick was letting players walk before they started to decline.  Almost exactly what we're looking at w/ Poyer.

5) Their biggest priority, year after year, was making sure the O-line was strong.  That's just what you do when you have a top QB.

 

Still, the run is somewhat mystifying.  Belichick was not a great drafter, which is usually needed once a QB gets past the rookie contract.  Superior coaching clearly played a part. I think BB got the best out of his players (which is something we aren't doing right now - we see players leave the Bills and perform better than they did here).

 

Thoughts?

I wouldn't consider a fourth-round pick much of an "investment." That's what they got him for. They also traded a second for Corey Dillon, who arguably should be in the HOF given his numbers. He put up nearly 1,700 rushing yards in his first season there and they won the SB. 

[B-Man]

[US Egg]

There’s only one reason. Hate away haters, rev up your excuse machines…..

…..it rings hollow to the countless who know he is simply the greatest.

Edited February 6, 2023 by I am the egg man

[NewEra]

[GreggTX]

Brady's top priority was winning, not money.

 

[Meatloaf63]

I would say the biggest reason is they didn’t have Frazier running their defense. 👍

[Lost]

QB legend, HOF coach and a clown fiesta in the rest of the division for many years.    

[uticaclub]

They didn't beat themselves and had 1 or 2 games during that entire stretch where they just didn’t show up. Also the Bills, Jets & Dolphins were all terrible. Brady went 33-3 against us, that's ridiculous against a division opponent. 

[947]

They built a passing offense based on getting the ball out in 1.5 seconds, so they could still excel without top dollar O-line players & spend their big money on other areas. Rarely getting called for OPI on pick plays allowed them to execute any short/quick pass they wanted with a ridiculously high success rate.

 

It also helps that Brady took some bargain deals that were supplemented by Kraft investing in his TB12 company "under the table".

[NoHuddleKelly12]

I’m guessing it’s because this guy wasn’t coaching yet? 🤷🏼‍♂️

[Jauronimo]

1. Hall of fame QB on a below market contract

2. Best situational football coaching in the game

3. Best defensive game plans in the game

4. Continual innovation on offense based on talent available

 

The Manning led Colts played in an even worse division but it didn't pack their trophy case.

[aristocrat]

Always had top defenses that could play you all sorts of ways. Great secondaries, great against the run. Offense always had hall of fame weapons with the gronk, Edelman and welker. Those guys just moved chains. Offensive lines always kept Brady upright

[Nextmanup]

40 minutes ago, Gregg said:

Brady the GOAT, Belichick the GOAT. Built a solid roster around #12. The Bills, Dolphins, Jets = Three stooges. Division was a joke as NE would usually have it clinched by late Oct/ early Nov. Because of it they usually had the #1 or #2 seed so they rarely had to play on WC weekend.

One thing Bills fans like to overlook as well: over the years, NE almost always had a really good defense...

 

The names changed all the time, but the unit remains solid.

 

That's true even now.

 

 

[corta765]

1. Brady

2. Coaching BB as a coach is great

3. Smart FA signing at the right time. Moss & Welker 07, Gilmore 17, Corey Dillon 2004, etc.. when NE went to the FA for a star caliber player it fit their scheme to a T normally and gave great dividends

4. Took advantage of extra draft picks before other teams started doing so which allowed a greater hit rate on players outside of the 1st round

5. AFC East was garbage

6. Secured the #1 seed an insane number of times which allowed a far easier path to the SB.  They only lost once at home in the AFC title game (BAL 2012), by comparison on the road they were 3-3.

[MJS]

You can divide their years into three different buckets:

 

Early dominance: 2001 to 2004. They won 3 superbowls in 4 years.

 

Middle Less Dominant: 2005 to 2013. No superbowl wins. They were somewhat like our Bills today, not getting over the hump in the playoffs. They were even one-and-done in the playoffs two times during this stretch. They did get there twice, but lost to the Giants both times.

 

Late Dominance: 2014 to 2020. Everything clicked again for a few years. They won 4 more superbowls during this stretch.

 

Tom Brady is the big reason they won so much. He is the GOAT. He also took a discount for much of those years. They also had successful schemes and knew how to bring in role players to fit specific roles in the offense. They didn't always draft particularly well, but they were good at bringing in value free agents and made trades or signed big time players at the right time to help get over the hump (Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Stephon Gilmore, etc.)

Edited February 6, 2023 by MJS

[Scott7975]

Played in a weak division 

had Tom Brady on a low contract

were able to get free agents on cheap deals so they could win a Super Bowl 

[sven233]

Paying Brady under the table so they only had him on the books for about half, or less, than what he should have been on the books for certainly helped a lot.  Cheating (in a bunch of different ways, probably in a lot of ways that weren't even discovered yet) had a bunch to do with it as well.  Throw all that on the fact that Brady was good anyway, and boom......dynasty. 

[iccrewman112]

Kyle Orton, Jay Fiedler, and Chad Pennington being amongst the top QB from the division opponents during the 2 decade long period certainly helps.

[Success]

13 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

One thing Bills fans like to overlook as well: over the years, NE almost always had a really good defense...

 

The names changed all the time, but the unit remains solid.

 

That's true even now.

 

 

 

That is very true. The Pats always played great defense during that run.

 

Over 17 years, that's kind of amazing.  I have to wonder how much of that was coaching over personnel.

 

[PBF81]

11 minutes ago, corta765 said:

5. AFC East was garbage

 

The rest of your points are valid, but I think that this one is paramount.  I'll list the QBs in our division on the Jets, Fins, and us during Brady's years in NE before Brady left, and not including Allen's first couple of seasons where he wasn't good.  Look at the number of different starting QBs in that 19-year stretch.  

 

Bills:  Van Pelt, Bledsoe, Holcomb, Losman, Edwards, Fitzpatrick, Manuel, Orton, and Taylor 

Fins:  Fiedler, Feeley, Frerotte, Harrington, Lemon, Pennington, Henne, Moore, Tannehill, Cutler, and Fitzpatrick 

Jets:  Testeverde (old), Pennington, Bollinger, Favre (old), Sanchez, Smith, Fitzpatrick, McCown, and Darnold  

 

None of 'em were any good when they were on those teams.  

 

That's an easy 6-games/season that are typically "tough division games" that weren't tough for NE.  

Edited February 6, 2023 by PBF81

[Gregg]

The one thing I will say about NE during their run was they always seemed to have trouble with the Dolphins in Miami. That was the own personal house of horrors. I think Brady's career record in Miami was around .500. The Bills rarely beat the Pats and the Jets weren't much better.

[Buffalo Boy]

32 minutes ago, I am the egg man said:

There’s only one reason. Hate away haters, rev up your excuse machines…..

…..it rings hollow to the countless who know he is simply the greatest.

   I would take Montana over him every single time.

    Let little Tommy take the hits JM was subject to…..and see how it turns out. Oh, that’s right, we saw that with the Giants and Eagles😜

[Your Brown Eye]

1 minute ago, Gregg said:

The one thing I will say about NE during their run was they always seemed to have trouble with the Dolphins in Miami. That was the own personal house of horrors. I think Brady's career record in Miami was around .500. The Bills rarely beat the Pats and the Jets weren't much better.

 

24-12 All time versus the Dolphins

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask?q=tom+brady's+career+win+loss+record+vs+dolphins#:~:text=Tom Brady's Career Win Loss Record Vs Dolphins,24-12 against the Dolphins in his career. Explore

[PBF81]

3 minutes ago, Your Brown Eye said:

 

24-12 All time versus the Dolphins

 

https://www.statmuse.com/nfl/ask?q=tom+brady's+career+win+loss+record+vs+dolphins#:~:text=Tom Brady's Career Win Loss Record Vs Dolphins,24-12 against the Dolphins in his career. Explore

 

I just counted, unless I made a mistake, Brady was 8-10 @ Miami.  2008 was Cassel.  

[Gugny]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

Brady the GOAT, Belichick the GOAT. Built a solid roster around #12. The Bills, Dolphins, Jets = Three stooges. Division was a joke as NE would usually have it clinched by late Oct/ early Nov. Because of it they usually had the #1 or #2 seed so they rarely had to play on WC weekend.

 

The six "gimme" wins/season obviously helped them with getting into the playoffs and vying for postseason byes.  

 

But ... as our beloved Bills have shown us over the past few years, getting into the tournament is one thing; winning in the tournament is another.

[Einstein]

I don't blame Allen for taking the money he could get, but it would have been great if he didn't.

 

Brady never received more than $19M per year with the Patriots and most years were around $15M.

 

Allen got $46M last year, and he averages $35M per year over the next 4 years.

 

Brady allowed the Patriots to have a ton more money to work with. 

[Mango]

1 hour ago, Success said:

I thought it might be interesting to put our loathing aside and really analyze how they pulled it off.  What they did is what I want the Bills to do - dominate for many years, and as long as they have Allen at QB.

 

They didn't have the ebb & flow that a team normally has, even w/ a top QB.  Their window was wide open for most of those 17 years. They made 9 SB's, and probably should have made 1-2 more.  My own thoughts:

 

1) Obviously, Brady took less pay so the team could afford better players.  I still don't see that being as impactful as it's made out to be - he was still paid a lot.

2) Aging vet stars took pay cuts just to play w/ Brady. Will we see that w/ Allen?

3) The Patriots made very few investments in bigtime skill players.  Moss was the exception, not the rule.

4) One of the hallmarks of Belichick was letting players walk before they started to decline.  Almost exactly what we're looking at w/ Poyer.

5) Their biggest priority, year after year, was making sure the O-line was strong.  That's just what you do when you have a top QB.

 

Still, the run is somewhat mystifying.  Belichick was not a great drafter, which is usually needed once a QB gets past the rookie contract.  Superior coaching clearly played a part. I think BB got the best out of his players (which is something we aren't doing right now - we see players leave the Bills and perform better than they did here).

 

Thoughts?

 

There were years where Eli was making $10-12M more than Brady and the cap was $120M. Could you imagine the impact of Josh giving up $20M per year right now? 

 

In Brady's highest paid years he took about as much cap space as Josh will for 2023 which is 17%. In a lot of years he is in the 5-10% range which is wildly low for the production compared to todays QB's. 

 

It is certainly a complicated answer, but I wouldn't discount this. 

[corta765]

20 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

The rest of your points are valid, but I think that this one is paramount.  I'll list the QBs in our division on the Jets, Fins, and us during Brady's years in NE before Brady left, and not including Allen's first couple of seasons where he wasn't good.  Look at the number of different starting QBs in that 19-year stretch.  

 

Bills:  Van Pelt, Bledsoe, Holcomb, Losman, Edwards, Fitzpatrick, Manuel, Orton, and Taylor 

Fins:  Fiedler, Feeley, Frerotte, Harrington, Lemon, Pennington, Henne, Moore, Tannehill, Cutler, and Fitzpatrick 

Jets:  Testeverde (old), Pennington, Bollinger, Favre (old), Sanchez, Smith, Fitzpatrick, McCown, and Darnold  

 

None of 'em were any good when they were on those teams.  

 

That's an easy 6-games/season that are typically "tough division games" that weren't tough for NE.  

 

Thank you and yep. Part of NE getting so many 1 seeds was the fact they routinely were rolling 4-2 5-1 in division yearly. They actually only went 6-0 in division like twice but even so when you are not getting pressed it makes it so much easier.

[Mango]

12 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I don't blame Allen for taking the money he could get, but it would have been great if he didn't.

 

Brady never received more than $19M per year with the Patriots and most years were around $15M.

 

Allen got $46M last year, and he averages $35M per year over the next 4 years.

 

Brady allowed the Patriots to have a ton more money to work with. 

 

Just as a percentage of cap, his highest year with the Pats was about 17%. Which is Josh's "onboarding" year into his big deal, and relatively low. A lot of years Brady gave the team another 10% of the entire cap back. 

That's right. 10% of the entire salary cap, not his pay cut. That would be $22.5M per year in today's terms. 

I don't fault Josh's money, or any QB/player. You get one shot to set your family up to have generational wealth. You have to take it. What Brady did was remarkable. His last year or two TB is what you get when you have to pay a top flight QB top flight money. 

His discount is a very important piece to his story. 

[Gregg]

15 minutes ago, Einstein said:

I don't blame Allen for taking the money he could get, but it would have been great if he didn't.

 

Brady never received more than $19M per year with the Patriots and most years were around $15M.

 

Allen got $46M last year, and he averages $35M per year over the next 4 years.

 

Brady allowed the Patriots to have a ton more money to work with. 

 

Brady also had Giselle who made more money then he did. I don't know what Allen's GF does for a living if she does anything at all. 

[Mango]

2 minutes ago, corta765 said:

 

Thank you and yep. Part of NE getting so many 1 seeds was the fact they routinely were rolling 4-2 5-1 in division yearly. They actually only went 6-0 in division like twice but even so when you are not getting pressed it makes it so much easier.

 

It has been forever since I went through this topic. But I am fairly certain that Brady led Pats have a better W/L vs. the rest of the NFL than they do vs. the AFCE. 

1 minute ago, Gregg said:

 

Brady also had Giselle who made more money then he did. I don't know what Allen's GF does for a living if she does anything at all. 

 

How on earth would Brady have ever gotten by otherwise? 

[MJS]

Those saying it was a weak division, it's not actually really true. If you compare wins/losses over those years by division, the AFC East was not one of the weaker divisions. Even when you take out the #1 team for each division, only comparing the bottom 3 teams, the AFC East was not one of the weaker divisions.

 

Also, the Pats did not always go 6-0 in the division. One or two of their very few losses each year were usually from within the division. In fact, they only swept the division two times (2007 and 2012). 

 

Now, if you want to look at QB's, yes, the AFC East had a really bad stretch of QB's during those years.

[TheFunPolice]

When they won it was ALL BRADY.

 

When they lost it was a team game.

 

Oh, and the Belichick deserves no credit. Even though he has 8 SB rings and Brady will always have fewer. 

[1onemangang7]

Parcells tree is defined by the power running game. That's how. Cook would never be on Bellichicks team, Brady was to be protected. 

[pigpen65]

Cheating. Knowing the other team's plays before they run them helps quite a bit 

[Jauronimo]

Pats never choked when it mattered.  Their opponents almost always flinched and committed the grave mistake.  Belichick never beat himself.  It wasn't until recently when I saw a Bill B coached team give away games that were otherwise won.  Cam's fumble against us, their stanford band play this year, maybe the hook and ladder against miami a few years ago.

[FireChans]

1 hour ago, MJS said:

You can divide their years into three different buckets:

 

Early dominance: 2001 to 2004. They won three superbowls in 4 years.

 

Middle Less Dominant: 2005 to 2013. No superbowl wins. They were somewhat like our Bills today, not getting over the hump in the playoffs. They were even one-and-done in the playoffs two times during this stretch. They did get there twice, but lost to the Giants both times.

 

Late Dominance: 2014 to 2020. Everything clicked again for a few years. They won four more superbowls during this stretch.

 

Tom Brady is the big reason they won so much. He is the GOAT. He also took a discount for much of those years. They also had successful schemes and knew how to bring in role players to fit specific roles in the offense. They didn't always draft particularly well, but they were good at bringing in value free agents and made trades or signed big time players at the right time to help get over the hump (Wes Welker, Randy Moss, Stephon Gilmore, etc.)

At a certain point, continuity plays a huge part as well. When you have guys playing in the same systems for 5-6-7 years, it becomes pretty easy to keep the train on the tracks.

[BADOLBILZ]

47 minutes ago, corta765 said:

1. Brady

2. Coaching BB as a coach is great

3. Smart FA signing at the right time. Moss & Welker 07, Gilmore 17, Corey Dillon 2004, etc.. when NE went to the FA for a star caliber player it fit their scheme to a T normally and gave great dividends

4. Took advantage of extra draft picks before other teams started doing so which allowed a greater hit rate on players outside of the 1st round

5. AFC East was garbage

6. Secured the #1 seed an insane number of times which allowed a far easier path to the SB.  They only lost once at home in the AFC title game (BAL 2012), by comparison on the road they were 3-3.

 

 

I'd add that for most of their run there weren't as many talented QB's in the NFL as there are today.    And certainly not as diversely skilled both in terms of passing and running...........the latter of which has always been an achilles heel of Belichicks' defenses.

 

6 of the 7 teams that made the AFC playoffs this year did so largely because they had MVP or even HOF type talent at QB.........injury kept one of them out(Jackson)..........Miami with Tua is the only exception and he was outperforming all of them at one point in the season.

 

During most of Brady's career there were only 3-5 extraordinary QB's at any given time in the entire league.    He basically just had to beat Manning and/or Roethlisberger to get to a SB.  

 

I'm certainly not complaining because if it didn't get easier to find a QB the bumbling Bills franchise that traded Mahomes away would probably not have gotten one........but it's not as easy to get thru the AFC now as it was for a long time prior, IMO.