How did the Patriots maintain a top team for 17 years?

[BillsFanNC]

By cheating.

[Ghost_002!]

So in the end, is this thread saying the Bills don't got next then?

 

 

 

 

[Wayne Arnold]

It was 19 years and when you give the greatest football coach of all-time the greatest competitor in the history of pro sports it's not hard to figure out how they did it.

[Success]

2 hours ago, Wayne Arnold said:

It was 19 years and when you give the greatest football coach of all-time the greatest competitor in the history of pro sports it's not hard to figure out how they did it.

 

1st SB win - 2002.  Last SB win - 2019.  17 years.

 

[Wayne Arnold]

14 minutes ago, Success said:

 

1st SB win - 2002.  Last SB win - 2019.  17 years.

 

 

By this logic they were only a "top team" for six years.

[Success]

2 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

By this logic they were only a "top team" for six years.

 

I'd disagree. They were still going to most of the AFCCG's and some of the SB's in the "off" years.

 

After 2019, they were done being a top team.  

 

[Wayne Arnold]

2 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I'd disagree. They were still going to most of the AFCCG's and some of the SB's in the "off" years.

 

After 2019, they were done being a top team.  

 

 

2001 - First season as with Tom Brady as starter, won Super Bowl

2019 - 12-4, Won AFC East

 

They were a "top team" during that entire stretch. Winning season every year, only missed playoffs twice.

 

That's 19 years aka seasons.

[SoMAn]

Not sure if it was already mentioned, but to expand in # 4, letting players walk (basically, before their pay to performance value is a detriment), has the added benefit of compensatory draft picks, which they used to increase their odds of getting contributing players or bundled and traded to improve draft position. 
Being a contender always has the advantage of being an attractive destination for free agents who may be willing to take less pay than they might for a bottom feeder team.

[Victory Formation]

• Tom Brady (Who also took less money so the Patriots could sign more players.)

 

• The Patriots were smart about which players they spent money on. 
 

• They had a tendency of finding role players in the draft. Guys who may not be superstars but could fit into what they were trying to do.

 

• Had a tendency of trading down in the draft and acquiring extra picks.

 

• They played the compensation pick game like a charm. Always seemed to have multiple picks because of it.

 

• Signed many very good if not elite players to modest contracts because Tom Brady was their QB and many FAs wanted to go to a contender.

 

• Almost and I say almost always had great coordinators and coaches around Brady and co.

 

• Extremely well disciplined and coached team because of Belichick. Less penalties and Belichick had every single one of his players very well coached up and aware of what they were expected to do and what their role was. 
 

• Extremely decisive game planning.

 

• Played to win rather than not to lose.

 

• Aggressive and creative play calling.

[GoBills808]

How did Lance Armstrong win so many bicycle races

 

How did Mike Postle win $250k playing $1/3

 

How did Mark McGwire hit so many home runs

[Boatdrinks]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:18 PM, B-Man said:

^^^^End thread 

[ExiledInIllinois]

Brady's headset didn't turn off with 15 seconds left on the play clock... It probably still doesn't.  

 

💥Boom💥

 

There... I said it! 😆 

 

 

Actually all joking aside... How do we really know what's going on with the technological shi... Do we just blindly trust that the game is on the square?

Get rid of the GreenDot.

[Buffalo Super Fan]

17 hours ago, BillsFanNC said:

By cheating.

You really believe that? The current Buffalo Bills could cheat and still fail to win a Super Bowl the Bills are what in professional wrestling is called a jobber that is what is so sad with this sorry excuse for a current Bills football team right now. The Buffalo Bills embarrassed itself in that Cincinnati Bengals playoff game. I don’t believe the Cincinnati Bengals were that good the Bills team choose the easiest way out for the golf course. The Bills need to figure out what went wrong and get rid of quitters on this Bills team in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

[BillsFanNC]

5 minutes ago, Buffalo Super Fan said:

You really believe that? The current Buffalo Bills could cheat and still fail to win a Super Bowl the Bills are what in professional wrestling is called a jobber that is what is so sad with this sorry excuse for a current Bills football team right now. The Buffalo Bills embarrassed itself in that Cincinnati Bengals playoff game. I don’t believe the Cincinnati Bengals were that good the Bills team choose the easiest way out for the golf course. The Bills need to figure out what went wrong and get rid of quitters on this Bills team in my opinion. Go Bills! Let’s Go Buffalo 

 

They had the GOAT at the most important position in the game.

 

They also cheated.

 

 

[Punching Bag]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:00 AM, Success said:

I thought it might be interesting to put our loathing aside and really analyze how they pulled it off. 

 

Thoughts?

 

Cheating including spying is major factor.

[RevWarRifleman]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:38 AM, uticaclub said:

They didn't beat themselves and had 1 or 2 games during that entire stretch where they just didn’t show up. Also the Bills, Jets & Dolphins were all terrible. Brady went 33-3 against us, that's ridiculous against a division opponent. 

Amen to that!

[RevWarRifleman]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:45 AM, Nextmanup said:

One thing Bills fans like to overlook as well: over the years, NE almost always had a really good defense...

 

The names changed all the time, but the unit remains solid.

 

That's true even now.

 

 

"Roger that."

[HugeHeffner11]

On 2/7/2023 at 8:37 AM, Don Otreply said:

Coming from a pats fan roaming around on another teams board…, 

NFL is rigged.  They use the refs to rig the games they want.

[Don Otreply]

9 hours ago, HugeHeffner11 said:

NFL is rigged.  They use the refs to rig the games they want.

Well the NFL is a private club, so they can do whatever, however they want to, now that betting on games is a thing, the owners don’t want to get caught with a fix, tarnishing the shield and all, 😂

[Thurman#1]

On 2/7/2023 at 1:00 AM, Success said:

I thought it might be interesting to put our loathing aside and really analyze how they pulled it off.  What they did is what I want the Bills to do - dominate for many years, and as long as they have Allen at QB.

 

They didn't have the ebb & flow that a team normally has, even w/ a top QB.  Their window was wide open for most of those 17 years. They made 9 SB's, and probably should have made 1-2 more.  My own thoughts:

 

1) Obviously, Brady took less pay so the team could afford better players.  I still don't see that being as impactful as it's made out to be - he was still paid a lot.

2) Aging vet stars took pay cuts just to play w/ Brady. Will we see that w/ Allen?

3) The Patriots made very few investments in bigtime skill players.  Moss was the exception, not the rule.

4) One of the hallmarks of Belichick was letting players walk before they started to decline.  Almost exactly what we're looking at w/ Poyer.

5) Their biggest priority, year after year, was making sure the O-line was strong.  That's just what you do when you have a top QB.

 

Still, the run is somewhat mystifying.  Belichick was not a great drafter, which is usually needed once a QB gets past the rookie contract.  Superior coaching clearly played a part. I think BB got the best out of his players (which is something we aren't doing right now - we see players leave the Bills and perform better than they did here).

 

Thoughts?

 

 

Wasn't so much that they made a priority of OL. It was more that they had Scarnecchia who was an absolutely exceptional OL coach who did not want to go higher and Peter Principle himself.

 

Also, Belichick really was a very good drafter up till the last four years or so. He also had a smart system, acquiring more picks rather than trading up, generally. They were drafting late 20s most years and still drafted quite well. Belichick was brilliant with trading for more picks and getting more picks through the comp picks system. 

 

Belichick was ruthless with the cap, cutting guys early, You mentioned this but it was crucial. They built through the draft, filling in gaps with low- and mid-priced FAs.

 

They also did all the little tiny unimportant things well, including cheating and going right up to the edge. Who was that dark lord figure behind the scenes that Belichick relied on so much? I always forget his name but he had a lot to do with it.

 

 

Edited February 10, 2023 by Thurman#1

[Gregg]

10 hours ago, HugeHeffner11 said:

NFL is rigged.  They use the refs to rig the games they want.

 

If that was the case, then why not rig it for the NFL's darling franchises. Cowboys, Giants, Bears, Packers, Steelers. What is so special about NE or KC?

[Big Turk]

75% of it was Tom Brady covering up for all the deficiencies on the roster. Don't get me wrong, they had good players and good teams, but it wasn't often you looked at their roster and thought "Damn, this is the most talented roster in the NFL!"

Edited February 10, 2023 by Big Turk

[Gregg]

Just now, Big Turk said:

75% of it was Tom Brady covering up for all the deficiencies on the roster.

 

Much better coaching as well. 

[Big Turk]

11 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Much better coaching as well. 

 

As we have seen without a QB that doesn't amount to a lot.

[pocoboy]

Primarily developed a raw QB talent using film and deceit.

 

They got caught, but Brady had taken it upon himself to actually understand why they were telling him X when they knew the defense was doing Y, and then eventually learned how to diagnose Y on his own.

 

Also, Belichick embraced the "if you ain't cheating, you ain't trying" mentality. That's a foreign concept to our coaches, some would call it dignified, others might wish a ring or two had been earned through some guile. Belichick is a wily defensive coach, but many times his best defense was having that QB who could close out the game with the necessary points to win.

Edited February 10, 2023 by pocoboy

[Teddy KGB]

By having competent offensive line play and the goat at QB 

[Capco]

Don't forget their mastery of the compensatory draft selection process.

Not only were they fine with letting almost anyone walk per the next man up mentality, they managed to get extra draft picks for doing so.  Taking no-name players on cheap deals and plugging them into their system allowed this to happen year after year.  Those players would produce for the Patriots and this garnered other teams' interests in those players as potential free agents.  

And if those plug-and-play players wanted a new deal before their contract was up, the Patriots would still usually get something out of it by trading those players away and letting someone else overpay them.

By increasing their number of draft picks, they were able to find more plug-and-play players to fill their ranks, which meant they didn't need to sign as many free agents.  Fewer free agents means you're more likely to get a compensatory draft pick, and more draft picks mean fewer free agents.

It's a brilliant strategy but requires a discipline that a front office can only afford when they are a perennial winner on the field already.  

Edited February 10, 2023 by Capco

[Norcalbillsfan]

An accurate QB that always had elite slot options and excellent protection. Wear down defenses with 4 yard gains the length of the feild, don't turn the ball over. Then on defense always take away the opposing offenses best weapon. And 9/10 belichick would take away the run game and force qbs to win with their arm. Usually worked out for them.

[Thurman#1]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:44 AM, SoMAn said:

Not sure if it was already mentioned, but to expand in # 4, letting players walk (basically, before their pay to performance value is a detriment), has the added benefit of compensatory draft picks, which they used to increase their odds of getting contributing players or bundled and traded to improve draft position. 
Being a contender always has the advantage of being an attractive destination for free agents who may be willing to take less pay than they might for a bottom feeder team.

 

 

And it wasn't always comp picks.

 

They got a 1st rounder for Richard Seymour before the last year of his contract. That got them Nate Solder and probably let them feel they had the freedom to take their original 1st rounder that year and trade it for a 1st and a 2nd the next year. 

 

Always more picks.

 

https://www.nbcsports.com/boston/new-england-patriots/patriots-still-reaping-rewards-seymour-deal

[MafiaMio]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:38 AM, TheFunPolice said:

Oh, and the Belichick deserves no credit. Even though he has 8 SB rings and Brady will always have fewer. 

Eh I don't really count his two rings as DC. Guys like Toilet Bowles has a ring as a DC and McDaniels has multiple rings as OC. They can't ***** coach and drag their teams to winning records to save their lives. DC/OC success doesn't translate to HC success. You can be the best DC an just be an average and even trash coach. 
 

But to be fair to Belichick, he is an above average coach and like any other coach in that tier, can win with the right roster. But like any other above average coach he has a ceiling without the GOAT qb (see Andy Reid now that he has a qb better than Alex Smith). The problem is he doesn't seem to have a clue how to build his roster without prime Brady as a crutch to cover all the deficiencies/dumb decisions he has been making. He has always seemed allergic to getting his qb offensive help. That may have worked with Tom Brady dragging short white receivers to the super bowl (other than the two years they had Moss and the one day they had AB) with Gronk hurt half the time, but Mac Jones needs a LOT more help. Until he figures that out (or Mac Jones suddenly becomes Mahomes lol), the Pats will be flopping around with maybe a playoff appearance here and there, but never over the hump. 

Edited February 12, 2023 by MafiaMio

[julian]

Brady and not a single QB in the division for 2 decades

[Dr.Sack]

They had a QB who was accurate, strong armed enough, and ultra competitive and a coach willing to cheat. 

[JerseyBills]

Brady/ Belicheck and damn near perfect timing with FA

[Ya Digg?]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:38 AM, uticaclub said:

They didn't beat themselves and had 1 or 2 games during that entire stretch where they just didn’t show up. Also the Bills, Jets & Dolphins were all terrible. Brady went 33-3 against us, that's ridiculous against a division opponent. 

Crazy to see Mahomes doing that to his entire division!! He’s definitely getting the Brady treatment in his division, his opponents are garbage! Denver and Las Vegas aren’t going to be good any time soon, and I’d be willing to bet the Chargers miss the playoffs next year

[uticaclub]

6 minutes ago, Ya Digg? said:

Crazy to see Mahomes doing that to his entire division!! He’s definitely getting the Brady treatment in his division, his opponents are garbage! Denver and Las Vegas aren’t going to be good any time soon, and I’d be willing to bet the Chargers miss the playoffs next year

And he has 12 more years to go to reaching Tom.

[Jerry Jabber]

On 2/6/2023 at 11:04 AM, Gregg said:

Brady the GOAT, Belichick the GOAT. Built a solid roster around #12. The Bills, Dolphins, Jets = Three stooges. Division was a joke as NE would usually have it clinched by late Oct/ early Nov. Because of it they usually had the #1 or #2 seed so they rarely had to play on WC weekend.

All of that is true, plus a lot of cheating. They had the perfect system. Only got slapped on a wrist for the few times they got caught cheating, but totally worth it as they won six championships. 

[MafiaMio]

On 2/6/2023 at 12:45 PM, Success said:

 

The QB situation in the AFC is WAY better now.  Brady basically had to get past Manning to get to the SB.  Rivers never had the teams to compete, and wasn't close to Brady/Manning level. Big Ben was never in the top tier, imo.

 

The AFC is completely stacked right now.  Maybe there are only 3 at the "elite" level, but there are 3-4 more knocking on that door.  The QB play is so much better today than it was 10 years ago.

 

I think the reason there is a perceived amount of "stacked" talent at qb compared to previous eras is because everyone is starting out and in their physical primes. Nobody knows what these qbs careers are going to eventually look like, so they're judged based on what their futures could be, thus everyone is "good" and the league is "stacked". Guys like Herbert and Lawrence are talented but haven't proven anything. Lamar seems like a one hit wonder in 2019 and cannot stay healthy. Guys like Cam Newton and Russell Wilson started out hot then slowly flamed out as they aged. Thus when you look back at the previous era, it looks less "stacked" because only a select handful actually remained competitive year in and out.
 

Ultimately time will show only 2 or so of these qbs will actually be HoF worthy, and you'll look back at this era as less stacked because only those qbs remained relevant. 

[newcam2012]

12 hours ago, MafiaMio said:

Eh I don't really count his two rings as DC. Guys like Toilet Bowles has a ring as a DC and McDaniels has multiple rings as OC. They can't ***** coach and drag their teams to winning records to save their lives. DC/OC success doesn't translate to HC success. You can be the best DC an just be an average and even trash coach. 
 

But to be fair to Belichick, he is an above average coach and like any other coach in that tier, can win with the right roster. But like any other above average coach he has a ceiling without the GOAT qb (see Andy Reid now that he has a qb better than Alex Smith). The problem is he doesn't seem to have a clue how to build his roster without prime Brady as a crutch to cover all the deficiencies/dumb decisions he has been making. He has always seemed allergic to getting his qb offensive help. That may have worked with Tom Brady dragging short white receivers to the super bowl (other than the two years they had Moss and the one day they had AB) with Gronk hurt half the time, but Mac Jones needs a LOT more help. Until he figures that out (or Mac Jones suddenly becomes Mahomes lol), the Pats will be flopping around with maybe a playoff appearance here and there, but never over the hump. 

Will the Bills get over the hump? 

 

Six years of Allen and fizzling out in playoff appearances seems like the norm.

 

This year's appears to be an uphill battle with roster holes on the O and D line, WR, and safety positions. 

 

Limited cap space and decisions on free agents like Edmunds and Poyer.

 

Questionable O and D coordinators and an apparent difficult 2023 schedule. 

 

Hopefully, things fall in place. Lots of work to be done this off season. 

[Buffalo03]

Tom Brady

[bills6969]

You basically had the best QB of all time taking hometown discounts.  Brady never had a contract that had a cap hit of more than 20m a year: in fact during his prime years in NE he was only making 10-15m a year.  
 

It’s absurd how great of deal they got during all those years. Different times now.  You have guys like Prescott taking up 25% of total cap which really restricts what a team can do and no way could repeat anything the Pats were able to do.