Seventeen Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 5 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: Ages ranged from 1 to 38 (mean 12) with 70% < 16 years old not all were kids... She retweeted it from Dan Kaplan who is a writer for The Athletic, who is followed by every Farrar, Rappaport, Jim Nagy, Dr. Chao, Amy Trask, Joe Banner, Breer, Pete Prisco, Shcefter, Peter King, Rich Eisen etc... and added the part of the study that showed the mortality rate of the 69 people included in the study Thanks - Kaplan's tweet said "69 well characterized cases in youth sports" - guess I should have read the study. In any event, we still don't know if Hamlin suffered from commotio cordis. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Starr Almighty Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said: I had seasons when Everett happened, I think about it every time I go back to the stadium, this brought me right back to what it was like being there. There was one clip of Sean last night it looked like he was saying "oh my god oh my god oh my god" like 50 times in a 5 second close up...Seeing Sean freak out really got me and TRe - I hope they are all taking care of themselves the best they can... This is just awful I was also at that game balling in the stands. As bad as that was , this brought me right back to that moment but it's actually worse this time. If that's even possible. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 6 minutes ago, ColoradoBills said: Whoa On January 3rd!! 2 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HurlyBurly51 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 5 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: I was hoping to see this regarding proceeds for his jersey sales being donated. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 30 minutes ago, Beast said: I guess I’ll ask. Who is Lori Chase and does she have medical credentials? Sorry for being ignorant but I have no idea who she is. I take she is saying Damar has a 10% chance of surviving this? No. That is only if the cause of the cardiac arrest was commotio cordis which a blow to the chest causing thew heart to go into an ineffective rhythm. It's better for other possibilities. we don't know what the cause was at this point. It's possible we 'll never know for sure. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ndirish1978 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 14 minutes ago, eSJayDee said: Is she the Lori that used to frequent here before being scared/annoyed off? She was some sort of like small town journalist wasn't she? It's her. She is a retired reporter, not a doctor and IMO incredibly misguided in posting some study with conditions completely unlike what happened to Hamlin. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterStrategist Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Everyone posting about commotio cordis, or other theories are purely speculating. That is not what is needed right now. Just calling attention to the fact that there are a variety of possibilities (all related to irregular heartbeat): afib, cad, etc. What is needed now is continued support/prayer/positive energy, anything but speculation. Please be patient and wait for factual information to be released by Damar's family, representation, or the Bills directly. They have been providing updates throughout the day, and will continue to do so. Just unhealthy and unnecessary to speculate, especially when many of us are already deeply concerned. 4 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: Without looking into all of those 69 cases - who knows? The second resuscitation at the hospital is very worrisome along with how much time did his brain go without oxygen Yea, I think mixed news today, but any progress is huge… hopefully the oxygen numbers are a step towards life, and figuring the rest out from there. Also felt good to read cautious optimism shared with the team. Edited January 4, 2023 by NoSaint 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ColoradoBills Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Whoa On January 3rd!! I'm taking this as a very good omen. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorkScrewHill Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 NFL network interview with Damar Hamlin's uncle. A really good interview .. seems cautiously optimistic. https://www.nfl.com/videos/damar-hamlin-s-uncle-dorrian-glenn-gives-an-update-on-his-nephew-s-status 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Generic_Bills_Fan Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: Without looking into all of those 69 cases - who knows? The second resuscitation at the hospital is very worrisome along with how much time did his brain go without oxygen Is the second resuscitation confirmed by any reputable news sources? I haven’t heard anything about that Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JGMcD2 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Just now, Generic_Bills_Fan said: Is the second resuscitation confirmed by any reputable news sources? I haven’t heard anything about that His Uncle on CNN 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArtVandalay Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 4 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: WTF it is not my article, just because I post a tweet does not make everything contained with in it mine. I am not the defender of the tweet (I didn't tweet it or find the information in the first place), the only thing I am defending on here, if you will, is people running with an assumption that isn't even in the post. I mean if you are going to comment on something at least read it and be factual with it...FFS Okay sorry, the article you are referring to, sorry that distinction upset you. I did read what you posted and was talking to the content in it and measures that have taken place to improve survival. Updated info posted, which contains the 58% survival i recently referred to. No need to be defensive or upset. Lots of info floating around some old and ever changing outside of what people are accustomed to discussing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LOVEMESOMEBILLS Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 7 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Whoa On January 3rd!! It's a sign, I tell ya!! #3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 8 minutes ago, HurlyBurly51 said: I was hoping to see this regarding proceeds for his jersey sales being donated. wow. Dude is going to be the Santa of Pgh. Interestingly former NFL player Charlie Batch (also from Pgh) has a charity that does a similar thing (among other things). Perhaps Charlie can help Hamlin out with the logistics of it all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: Whoa On January 3rd!! This is going to be one hell of a 30 for 30 after we win the Super Bowl. 6 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 11 minutes ago, MasterStrategist said: Everyone posting about commotio cordis, or other theories are purely speculating. That is not what is needed right now. Just calling attention to the fact that there are a variety of possibilities (all related to irregular heartbeat): afib, cad, etc. What is needed now is continued support/prayer/positive energy, anything but speculation. Please be patient and wait for factual information to be released by Damar's family, representation, or the Bills directly. They have been providing updates throughout the day, and will continue to do so. Just unhealthy and unnecessary to speculate, especially when many of us are already deeply concerned. There's speculation all over the news often by "experts" who have little or no medical knowledge or experience. I heard Bob Costas give his opinion tonight. There are several health care professionals on the board that do have significant experience and knowledge including in critical care. Better that folks get speculation from someone qualified to at least give a differential diagnosis and understand the mortality stats with each than someone that doesn't. If folks want to listen to opinions on TV. I recommend watching Sanjay Gupta on CNN. He's a neurosurgeon, smart as a whip and speaks plainly. And neurology is an important aspect of this injury. Edited January 4, 2023 by redtail hawk Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Hindsight Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 19 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said: I just went to go get one myself and the smallest size they have left is a 2XL. Incredible levels of Support being shown 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorkScrewHill Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Cincinnati Bengals Play-by-play announcer describing what he saw. I didn't know about the players throwing up. https://www.nfl.com/videos/bengals-radio-analyst-dave-lapham-joins-nfl-total-access-to-discuss-damar-hamlin 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 5 minutes ago, ArtVandalay said: I know and the article that was quoted was from 97-98. Old info. I posted the updated, measures like AED installs have increased survival to 58% https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1547527112012544 The most recent 6 years, survival from commotio cordis was 31 of 53 (58%), with survivor and nonsurvivor curves ultimately crossing. Higher survival rates were associated with more prompt resuscitation (40%<3 minutes vs 5%>3 minutes; P<.001) and participation in competitive sports (39%; P<.001), but with lower rates in African Americans (1 of 24; 4%) than in whites (54 of 166; 33%; P = .004). The survival rates of resuscitation (40% if under 3 minutes which drops to 5% over 3 minutes is concerning. Even with the AED on the field, there have been reports of the medical staff beating on his chest - I assume that's how the efforts began - how long until the had the AED there and his gear off to be able to use the device? Less than 3 minutes or more than? The difference in survival rates between the races is significant - a 4% survival rate for African Americans is very very concerning as well. As is the 2nd resuscitation at the hospital. I wonder how frequently more than one resuscitation occurred in these cases Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 10 21 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeffbigalls Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 4 minutes is the crucial timeframe. After 4 minutes without oxygen rich blood flowing to the brain, cells begin to die and anoxic brain Injury occurs. He received immediate medical attention, and all you can do is pray that he will be ok. 2 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 15 minutes ago, ndirish1978 said: It's her. She is a retired reporter, not a doctor and IMO incredibly misguided in posting some study with conditions completely unlike what happened to Hamlin. it was a retweet from a reporter from the Athletic, who everyone basically involved in the NFL (Eisen, Banner, Trask, Rappaport, Breer, Pro Football Doc, etc. also follows. So this "misguided" "some study" is tied to him, she simply retweeted it with one stat. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demongyz Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 6 minutes ago, Captain Hindsight said: I just went to go get one myself and the smallest size they have left is a 2XL. Incredible levels of Support being shown Great news! I'm 2XL. Ordered. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pennstate10 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 52 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: How do you know that in the other 90% of the cases there was a delay of medical attention and AED in those cases? Reading comprehension my friend. 34 (half) of the cases were informal at a private home. You know anyone who has an AED at home? Didnt think so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 hour ago, BruceVilanch said: And unless you've been in a situation where you've witnessed active CPR and the use of an AED there's no way to prepare for seeing it the first time. It's violent and scary, I feel really bad for those guys having to watch it happen to their brother, thank God they started compressions quickly. If you have an opportunity, learn CPR and how to use an AED. Love to all my bills family, still feeling pretty numb. Praying for damar This This This. And if you don't have the opportunity, please try to create the opportunity. The Red Cross and many hospitals have classes; some will come to your business or club and teach a class for a minimum number of people. Workplaces that have AEDs usually have an emergency squad, find out and ask to join. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 19 minutes ago, NoSaint said: Yea, I think mixed news today, but any progress is huge… hopefully the oxygen numbers are a step towards life, and figuring the rest out from there. Also felt good to read cautious optimism shared with the team. I hope the progress continues. The real progress is over the next day or 2 as they begin to wake him up and it is up to his body to control and maintain the vitals. THis is a small step forward so far....here's to hoping that it continues over the next couple days 🍺🍻 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 36 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: Ages ranged from 1 to 38 (mean 12) with 70% < 16 years old not all were kids... She retweeted it from Dan Kaplan who is a writer for The Athletic, who is followed by every Farrar, Rappaport, Jim Nagy, Dr. Chao, Amy Trask, Joe Banner, Breer, Pete Prisco, Shcefter, Peter King, Rich Eisen etc... and added the part of the study that showed the mortality rate of the 69 people included in the study The major problem with this study is that it's extremely small. 69 is a tiny number to make conclusions on but it's by necessity as it's rare. No drug would ever be approved on a trial of 69 subjects. 30% of 69 is about 20 so there were only 20 patients over 16yo. Those over 20, especially an NFL player have more "armor" around their heart than the average 16 yo, armor meaning chest muscles. Damar has much more armor than the average 20 yo. Finally, it's a retrospective study (by necessity also) means looking backward at results , not getting results from a designed study. These studies are low powered. For all these reasons, I wouldn't put much stock in the numbers for Damar Hamlin's case. And what the mechanism was, is still unknown (at least to the public). Edited January 4, 2023 by redtail hawk 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aceman_16 Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 14 minutes ago, pennstate10 said: Reading comprehension my friend. 34 (half) of the cases were informal at a private home. You know anyone who has an AED at home? Didnt think so. I do...but I am a doctor who had an elderly relative living with me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Reed83HOF Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 minute ago, redtail hawk said: The major problem with this study is that it's extremely small. 69 is a tiny number to make conclusions on but it's by necessity as it's rare. No drug would ever be approved on a trial of 69 subjects. 30% of 69 is about 20 so there were only 20 patients over 16yo. Those over 20, especially an NFL player have more "armor" around their heart than the average 16 yo, armor meaning chest muscles. Damar has much more armor than the average 20 yo. For all these reasons, I wouldn't put much stock in the numbers for Damar Hamlin's case. And what the mechanism was, is still unknown (at least to the public). The population size is small and that makes it really difficult to gleam much insight from. Working in the manufacturing and R&D of medical device field for 20+ years - you are correct in regards to that trial size. The force of the collisions you will experience in today's NFL (Bigger, faster, stronger than ever before) from people who also have "armor" also has to factor into it. He may have more armor to absorb, but tHiggins also has more armor than your average 20yr old as well. I'm not a physicist, to be able to accurately calculate the force, nor am I a physician or A&P professor who may have the information as to how much force is necessary during a blunt trama event to the chest to distrupt his T wave at that exact moment either. I would expect that this would be a more violent collision than 16 or 20 yr olds who are not playing NFL Football. For all we know, the force of the collision could have been the same as a line drive to an unprotected chest. CC is most likely what occured - IIRC, he was hit in the chest... In any event, this is just awful and I hope for a good chance of recovery for him Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 1 hour ago, Reed83HOF said: Oh, Lori, No No Girlfriend, Don't do that, don't go there. First of all, as several have commented or linked tweets by doctors commenting, we don't yet know that it was Commotio Cordis. It's one possibility, but there are others. Second, These are two manuscripts from 1997 and 1998. A lot has changed since then in emergency medicine and in competitive sports. This is the more recent study we want https://www.heartrhythmjournal.com/article/S1547-5271(12)01254-4/fulltext Quote For the initial years (1970-1993), 6 of 59 cases survived (10%), while during 1994-2012, 54 of 157 (34%) survived (P = .001). The most recent 6 years, survival from commotio cordis was 31 of 53 (58%), with survivor and nonsurvivor curves ultimately crossing. Higher survival rates were associated with more prompt resuscitation (40%<3 minutes vs 5%>3 minutes; P<.001) and participation in competitive sports (39%; P<.001) Quote Conclusions: Survival from commotio cordis has increased, likely owing to more rapid response times and access to defibrillation, as well as greater public awareness of this condition. Damar Hamlin had everything that leads to a better outcome going for him: Immediate CPR, immediate oxygen administration, immediate use of an AED (automated external defibrillator. His odds are likely to be even better than the 58% given for more recent 6 years. No, no. Don't toss around statistics from the land of "Someone Did My Own Research and came up with a Thing" God Bless Us Every One who try to educate ourselves, but the flaw is when you're not in that field, you don't necessarily see all the publications, you aren't able to put the results in context and critically evaluate the big picture. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Victory Formation Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 4 minutes ago, Beck Water said: Damar Hamlin had everything that leads to a better outcome going for him: Immediate CPR, immediate oxygen administration, immediate use of an AED (automated external defibrillator. His odds are likely to be even better than the 58% given for more recent 6 years. No, no. Don't toss around statistics from the land of "Someone Did My Own Research and came up with a Thing" God Bless Us Every One who try to educate ourselves, but the flaw is when you're not in that field, you don't necessarily see all the publications, you aren't able to put the results in context and critically evaluate the big picture. Thing that scares me is that he’s been in a medically induced coma for almost a full day now.. Anything beyond that point worries me even further. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CorkScrewHill Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Can we have a separate thread for arm chair and even actual doctors who are not treating Damar where they can post their studies / opinions that may or may not have anything to do with Damar's case. The doctor's treating him haven't even stated the cause yet. It can be called "Damar Hamlin and my random analysis of his condition". We could then have this one be updates that come from people that are actually close to his case as well as the good stories about who he is and how he has impacted people. It would prevent wading through 16 new pages made up of 50% people puking on others best guesses as to what is wrong with Damar. 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrPJax Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 5 hours ago, YoloinOhio said: This is an extremely comprehensive group , collection of medical personnel, even including an anesthesiologist for intubation ( every dr on this team can intubate but some airways in large people with thick necks are difficult to intubate so having an anesthesiologist who does difficult airways all day is just great,next level preparation!) I do think , and have posted my thoughts on this, the independent neuro guys are possibly understaffed as the game moves too quickly for these limited numbers to adequately see the field areas where concussions will likely happen, but this shows really great preparation for almost any on field incident! Only thing I see missing is an ob/gyn in case a female ref or sideline person goes into labor and has a history of quick deliveries! Lol! Seriously , this is prep I never knew about and its why Damar is alive and has a chance to recover Really great preplanning for a violent , collision sport NFL has done this well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 Not going to lie … I’ve never once, in my entire life, worried that a hard hit to the chest could kill me. Id venture to guess that 99% of these players never have either .. that mental hurdle of hitting someone & getting hit, is going to take a minute to move past. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBear Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, Victory Formation said: Thing that scares me is that he’s been in a medically induced coma for almost a full day now.. Anything beyond that point worries me even further. It's a standard procedure after any cardiac arrest. They did the same thing to my Dad who was pulseless for 12 minutes. He's still with us and surprisingly no worse for wear. 1 1 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 (edited) 26 minutes ago, redtail hawk said: The major problem with this study is that it's extremely small. 69 is a tiny number to make conclusions on but it's by necessity as it's rare. No drug would ever be approved on a trial of 69 subjects. 30% of 69 is about 20 so there were only 20 patients over 16yo. Those over 20, especially an NFL player have more "armor" around their heart than the average 16 yo, armor meaning chest muscles. Damar has much more armor than the average 20 yo. Finally, it's a retrospective study (by necessity also) means looking backward at results , not getting results from a designed study. These studies are low powered. For all these reasons, I wouldn't put much stock in the numbers for Damar Hamlin's case. And what the mechanism was, is still unknown (at least to the public). As far as recognized cases of Commotio Cordis, never going to get a large number because it is rare. The problem I have is that the study referenced from 1998 appears to be superceded by a more recent study showing much improved survival rates of recent years. It's sort of like citing 1998 HIV survival rates in the face of much improved available treatments. 6 minutes ago, CorkScrewHill said: Can we have a separate thread for arm chair and even actual doctors who are not treating Damar where they can post their studies / opinions that may or may not have anything to do with Damar's case. The doctor's treating him haven't even stated the cause yet. It can be called "Damar Hamlin and my random analysis of his condition". We could then have this one be updates that come from people that are actually close to his case as well as the good stories about who he is and how he has impacted people. It would prevent wading through 16 new pages made up of 50% people puking on others best guesses as to what is wrong with Damar. Sure, you can have that, provided you put posts regurgitating random tweets from random reporters retweeting stats and studies that elicit the vomitus reaction there too. Edited January 4, 2023 by Beck Water 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Saint Doug Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 There’s was a very nice tribute to Damar tonight at the Caps game. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MasterStrategist Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 3 minutes ago, CorkScrewHill said: Can we have a separate thread for arm chair and even actual doctors who are not treating Damar where they can post their studies / opinions that may or may not have anything to do with Damar's case. The doctor's treating him haven't even stated the cause yet. It can be called "Damar Hamlin and my random analysis of his condition". We could then have this one be updates that come from people that are actually close to his case as well as the good stories about who he is and how he has impacted people. It would prevent wading through 16 new pages made up of 50% people puking on others best guesses as to what is wrong with Damar. Agree, and I mentioned up thread that speculation is not desirable. However, it is helpful to understand what to expect (timing of more info) and what next steps could be / possible causes. Living in Pittsburgh area, Allegheny Health Network (along with UPMC - Steeler team provider group) are the top hospital systems. Below are two articles, which provide key information without trying to speculate/specifically diagnose Hamlin: https://triblive.com/sports/next-24-hours-critical-to-hamlin-recovery-experts-say/ https://www.post-gazette.com/news/health/2023/01/03/damar-hamlin-cardiac-arrest-causes-heart-rhythm/stories/202301030101 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Ferguson forever Posted January 4, 2023 Share Posted January 4, 2023 10 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said: The population size is small and that makes it really difficult to gleam much insight from. Working in the manufacturing and R&D of medical device field for 20+ years - you are correct in regards to that trial size. The force of the collisions you will experience in today's NFL (Bigger, faster, stronger than ever before) from people who also have "armor" also has to factor into it. He may have more armor to absorb, but tHiggins also has more armor than your average 20yr old as well. I'm not a physicist, to be able to accurately calculate the force, nor am I a physician or A&P professor who may have the information as to how much force is necessary during a blunt trama event to the chest to distrupt his T wave at that exact moment either. I would expect that this would be a more violent collision than 16 or 20 yr olds who are not playing NFL Football. For all we know, the force of the collision could have been the same as a line drive to an unprotected chest. CC is most likely what occured - IIRC, he was hit in the chest... In any event, this is just awful and I hope for a good chance of recovery for him I found an article this morning that actually estimated the forces necessary to provoke the arrhythmia (I'm retired now so lots of time and interest, especially in this young man). They did work on animal models as well. Other variables included hardness of the object, position of contact (over the left ventricle was worst), age and I forget the other. But again, 69 is an extremely low number on which to draw conclusions. One reason I'm skeptical of the diagnosis was that at autopsy, these patients had no or little damage to the heart muscle. Why would Damar arrest again without another blow to the chest if that were the mechanism? There are possible explanations but it begs the question. Finally, it looks like newer studies show closer to a 60% survival but it's not as simple as averaging the various studies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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