Would you consider the Boogie Basham pick to be a disappointment?

[whorlnut]

3 hours ago, HappyDays said:

 

No, Dawkins is the most important piece on our line. Not even close. And people just throw out this idea that Humphrey would be as good at guard as he is at center, but he was a full time center at Oklahoma. It is not an automatic 1:1 transition. It's certainly possible he would have made a difference on our OL this year but it isn't a game changing position. Sacks and pressures change games, not guards. The biggest problem with the OL this year is they paid the wrong guy in free agency and Spencer Brown has not developed at all.

 

Well I disagree. In my opinion it’s Morse, but for you to say “it’s not even close” is completely wrong. If it really isn’t Morse then it’s a toss up. 

[GolfandBills]

Yes as of now I would 

[muppy]

19 minutes ago, frostbitmic said:

Picking anyone other than Creed Humphrey at that spot would be a disappointment.

 

Boogie is ok, Creed is a top Center already and Centers help protect the franchise.

I like the fact that you posted a guy that would have been a great addition to the team in the Basham slot vs the usual ***** and moan  over the guy we did select with  no alternative

 

Having said that Boogie is a Bill and I refuse to dog him and let the Professionals aka onebillsdrive decide his fate. Their opinion is the one that matters

[mjt328]

Most positions take about 3 seasons to determine what a player will become.

I'll wait until next year before forming my final opinion on Boogie Basham.

 

This is the year I'm taking a close look at the 2020 draft picks.

• AJ Epenesa is a solid rotational DE in this league.  Not a starter, but an OK backup.  Flashes a decent pass rush, but often a liability against the run.  
• Zack Moss was a bust and probably doesn't belong in the NFL.
• Gabe Davis is a nice deep threat and very good run blocker, but lacks the versatility and hands to be a high-end #2.
• Jake Fromm has been bouncing around practice squads, and doesn't seem long for the league.
• Tyler Bass is a very good NFL kicker.
• Isaiah Hodgins is finally flashing potential as an NFL backup.
• Dane Jackson is good depth on the cornerback chart, but doesn't have the athletic talent to be a starter.

Overall, this was Brandon Beane's worst draft. 

Not a single offensive/defensive guy that really belongs as a starter in the league.  Mostly high-end backups.  

Good thing we walked out of the day with Stefon Diggs.

[HappyDays]

16 minutes ago, whorlnut said:

Well I disagree. In my opinion it’s Morse, but for you to say “it’s not even close” is completely wrong. If it really isn’t Morse then it’s a toss up. 

 

I don't know anybody that watches football who would say LT is less important than center. If you want to say Morse is a better player than Dawkins that's reasonable but that's not the same as more important. We lost Morse for a game and were just fine with Bates stepping in. We lost Dawkins for a game against the Patriots and our passing offense could barely function. Like I said, "not even close." It would be much MUCH easier to sustain a season ending injury to Morse than to Dawkins. If you don't agree I don't know what else I could say.

[DasNootz]

It was a disappointment at the time - they doubled down on DE when there was  glaring need and top choice match (Creed Humphrey).  Outside of that, he's like most 2nd rounders in that class have been meh.  

Edited December 30, 2022 by DasNootz

[OldTimer1960]

5 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Have to agree…

 

Beane has been good, but his drafting has resulted in more “average” to “about average”  players than “great” to “elite” players.

Drafting late in 2nd round isn’t easy.  Basham was playing reasonably before injury.  Is he the next Von Miller?  No, but he was drafted almost 2 rounds later and I wouldn’t give up on him yet.

[DJB]

Most if not all of our 2nd round picks have been a complete waste. 
 

We need to start hitting on those 

[muppy]

5 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

If we can live in hindsight we would have HOF level players at every position.  You make the decision with the information you have at the time.

so much THIS. And next comes the players development.  #17 would have been a no brainer #1 pick instead of 7 if folks knew then what they know now.

[HappyDays]

6 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

Most positions take about 3 seasons to determine what a player will become.

I'll wait until next year before forming my final opinion on Boogie Basham.

 

This is the year I'm taking a close look at the 2020 draft picks.

• AJ Epenesa is a solid rotational DE in this league.  Not a starter, but an OK backup.  Flashes a decent pass rush, but often a liability against the run.  
• Zack Moss was a bust and probably doesn't belong in the NFL.
• Gabe Davis is a nice deep threat and very good run blocker, but lacks the versatility and hands to be a high-end #2.
• Jake Fromm has been bouncing around practice squads, and doesn't seem long for the league.
• Tyler Bass is a very good NFL kicker.
• Isaiah Hodgins is finally flashing potential as an NFL backup.
• Dane Jackson is good depth on the cornerback chart, but doesn't have the athletic talent to be a starter.

Overall, this was Brandon Beane's worst draft. 

Not a single offensive/defensive guy that really belongs as a starter in the league.  Mostly high-end backups.  

Good thing we walked out of the day with Stefon Diggs.

 

The 2020 draft was excellent. We came away with:

 

-A top 5 at his position #1 WR

-A strong #3 WR with vertical traits

-One of the best and most clutch kickers in the league

-An adequate #2 CB

-A rotational/situational pass rusher

 

If you don't think that's a great haul you're not being realistic.

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by HappyDays

[whorlnut]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I don't know anybody that watches football who would say LT is less important than center. If you want to say Morse is a better player than Dawkins that's reasonable but that's not the same as more important. We lost Morse for a game and were just fine with Bates stepping in. We lost Dawkins for a game against the Patriots and our passing offense could barely function. Like I said, "not even close." It would be much MUCH easier to sustain a season ending injury to Morse than to Dawkins. If you don't agree I don't know what else I could say.

We can agree to disagree because I see it differently. 

[nosejob]

5 hours ago, WideNine said:

I was hoping for Creed, and was so happy when he fell to where we could nab him that any other pick was jaded for me.

 

Boogie seemed like a reach to me, but then again so did Oliver where they picked him.

 

I can't fault this team just for the misses though, when the same evaluators are the ones that targeted Groot when other teams whiffed on him.

 

They do tend to find more than their share of projects that need long runways to get up to NFL speed.

 

Oliver again seems to finally be coming into his own after being pretty underwhelming his first few seasons.

 

That really bites into the cap advantage of riding out the rookie deals with guys that can contribute early.

 

 

I keep hearing this and while it would have been a good pick, I'd like to ask how long ago was Morse signed?

 

edit: nevermind, got off my arse and looked it up. 2019 60 mil. and Creed was drafted 2 years later. Who here was clamoring for the Bills to sign Morse's replacement at this point?...let alone with a high pick. And saying we could stick him at guard until whenever would have also been a waste of a high round pick. I'd rather wait til the end of the season until looking at this as a whole.

 

If Boogie makes a stop/sack in the SB.....

Edited December 30, 2022 by nosejob

[FireChans]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

I mean in that alternate reality where josh Allen was a bust we’d be drafting a lot earlier every year and we’d have more draft picks contributing early. People are kind of ignoring the fact that these are mostly late picks because our team is actually good now lol   
 

If you look at the chiefs who also have picked late for years/not always had first round picks, they’ve got a pretty similar thing going on.  The only meaningful player they got out of the 2020 and 2019 drafts was ljarius sneed. 2021 they hit on creed obviously and nick Bolton has been playing better this year.

then 2022 they unloaded tyreek and had a ton of picks that are all looking mediocre at best. it’s still very early in their careers of course. 

The Chiefs wiffed horrible with CEH, a terrible luxury pick. Tee Higgins would’ve been an infinitely better pick with Tyreek negotiations around the corner (something pretty predictable.)

 

NFL teams on the whole are pretty stupid.

[Bob in STL]

2 hours ago, Virgil said:

If I'm not mistaken, Dobbins was taken right after Boogie, so yes.

 

However, at the time of the pick, it was considered to be a value pick because he can lineup both in and outside.  I don't think it's worked out yet and probably won't be a solid starter.  The fact that they took Groot the pick before also makes it look worse.

 

For Beane, I think he's great at drafting certain positions and terrible at others.  To date, he has not proven to know how to draft Offensive lineman, Receivers, and 50/50 on defensive lineman and runningbacks.  Gabe Davis is his one exception so far at the receiver position.  He knocks it out of the park with Linebackers, DB's, and QBs.  

You are mistaken.   Dobbins was taken one pick after Epensa, the year prior.  

 

Dobbins is a good player.  So is James Cook, who is just starting to develop.

 

2022 stats: 

                       Att     Tds   Ave      TD

Dobbins          79     427    5.7      2

Cook               80     462    5.8      2

 

The bolded statement is ridiculous.   Let's get rid of Dawkins, Brown, Singletary, Cook, Davis, and Shakir go back to life before Beane?  

 

 

 

[JMM]

 No still a bit early.  What makes it hard to swallow though right now is that the pick could have been Creed Humphrey. 

[Virgil]

10 minutes ago, Bob in STL said:

You are mistaken.   Dobbins was taken one pick after Epensa, the year prior.  

 

Dobbins is a good player.  So is James Cook, who is just starting to develop.

 

2022 stats: 

                       Att     Tds   Ave      TD

Dobbins          79     427    5.7      2

Cook               80     462    5.8      2

 

The bolded statement is ridiculous.   Let's get rid of Dawkins, Brown, Singletary, Cook, Davis, and Shakir go back to life before Beane?  

 

 

 

Shakir and Cook are still TBD. 
 

Did Beane draft Dawkins?  
 

Motor is fine, nothing more or less.  
 

I’m giving him credit for Gabe, but even that is very hit or miss and I’d say below expectations this year.  
 

No where did I say that we should not have Beane.  I’m saying he hasn’t shown the same success rate at those positions to indicate the scouting prowless he has at other positions. 
 

Thanks for the correction on Dobbins. I do believe that Dobbins would have shored up the position, saved the motor, moss, and maybe Cook picks for other positions.  I would gladly sacrifice AJ for Dobbins.  There’s no way to know if he would have gotten injured with us 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Virgil

[WideNine]

12 minutes ago, nosejob said:

I keep hearing this and while it would have been a good pick, I'd like to ask how long ago was Morse signed?

 

edit: nevermind, got off my arse and looked it up. 2019 60 mil. and Creed was drafted 2 years later. Who here was clamoring for the Bills to sign Morse's replacement at this point?...let alone with a high pick. And saying we could stick him at guard until whenever would have also been a waste of a high round pick. I'd rather wait til the end of the season until looking at this as a whole.

 

If Boogie makes a stop/sack in the SB.....

 

The idea behind that is that the Bills need to groom Morse's replacement. As he has and is going to miss time due to concussions and it is one of the essential positions on the OL to lock down.

 

Mitch signed a 2 year extension through 2024 if his health holds, but smart money would have been to pick up his successor on the cheap so he has some time to back him up and learn the ropes. 

 

A good choice would be a high end prospect that could man C and G spots in a pinch while he learned.

 

Good centers don't usually hit FA and when they do they are not cheap.

 

Creed would have probably been the better move for this team's needs.

 

Nothing particular against Boogie, just that he seemed to be a luxury pick where we had a clear team need at interior OL that Creed would have fit.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[london_bills]

6 hours ago, uticaclub said:

If Allen is a bust, McDermott & Beane aren't here in 2022. This team is nothing special outside of Allen.

You are absolutely right. Although if the seasons were winning mcd might still be here. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Drafting late in 2nd round isn’t easy.  Basham was playing reasonably before injury.  Is he the next Von Miller?  No, but he was drafted almost 2 rounds later and I wouldn’t give up on him yet.

 

It really stinks that Creed Humphrey was taken a pick or two after Boogie. We could have had him. Hindsight is 20/20 though.

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Drafting late in 2nd round isn’t easy.  Basham was playing reasonably before injury.  Is he the next Von Miller?  No, but he was drafted almost 2 rounds later and I wouldn’t give up on him yet.

You may be correct.  But I think Boogie is a lot like AJ Epinesa.   He may be a solid rotational DE but I think that’s his ceiling.  That’s fine but you can find solid rotational DE’s much later in the draft after round 2.  This is what makes him a disappointing pick IMO

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by JohnNord

[Talleywhacker]

6 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

6 hours ago, balln said:

 

If we can live in hindsight we would have HOF level players at every position.  You make the decision with the information you have at the time.

This

 

[machine gun kelly]

1 hour ago, HappyDays said:

 

The 2020 draft was excellent. We came away with:

 

-A top 5 at his position #1 WR

-A strong #3 WR with vertical traits

-One of the best and most clutch kickers in the league

-An adequate #2 CB

-A rotational/situational pass rusher

 

If you don't think that's a great haul you're not being realistic.

 

Each position has its ramp up time.  Knox didn’t start to break out until year3 which is not uncommon for TE’s.

 

The D Linemen for every role player like AJE, and Basham, you have a GROOT, Von, Settle, D Jones, Shaq (our 3rd best DE this year), Oliver coming out, and Jordan Phillips.  That is one hellova talented line!  They’ve covered up for some injured D Backs.  We are now outside of Hyde getting healthy.

 

The draft isn’t Madden.  Look at Cook on offense now vs the beginning of the year.  Gabe is a solid 3rd, but objectively we need a true #2.  This is why I hoped for a healthy OBJ.  We need to rely on 21, and 11 personnel.

[BBills_88]

Allow him to continue to develope. 

Let him, battle it out in the off-season & training camp with other D Ends.

[ArtVandalay]

6 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

I also wish Beane would pull the trigger on trades more. Wish we got Von in the trade that LA pulled off last year. I think we have a trophy if he did that.

Could you imagine if we had CMC? Good lord.  But instead we get to pick another Boogie Basham next year. 

6 hours ago, Matt_In_NH said:

If we can live in hindsight we would have HOF level players at every position.  You make the decision with the information you have at the time.

And at the time Oliver was an undersized "high motor" guy, the exact opposite of what you are looking for at the top of the draft when you have an assembly line of protptype size and physical ability to pick from. 

[ControllerOfPlanetX]

I want him to be good, but he isn’t…

 

….just like when we picked Tony Hunter before Jim Kelly…

 

[ProcessTruster]

7 hours ago, uticaclub said:

If Allen is a bust, McDermott & Beane aren't here in 2022. This team is nothing special outside of Allen.

but boy did they hit on that one....

[QCity]

Considering Creed Humphrey was there? Yes.

[cba fan]

Yes. Also, the Epenesa pick.

[ganesh]

7 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

As of this time yes he’s not living up to a second round draft pick
 

I mean for chrissake Kingsley, who I didn’t even know who it was came in and made an immediate impact

against the Bears !

5 minutes ago, cba fan said:

Yes. Also, the Epenesa pick.

Epenesa has 6.5 sacks for this season.  With the Bills rotating their DL very aggressively, we are never likely to have 10-15 sack season from your backup DE.

 

I think AJ has filled in well for Miller.

 

Did the Bills whifff on getting a Blue chip player - Yes 

Did the Bills whiff on getting a solid player - No

[John from Riverside]

21 minutes ago, ganesh said:

against the Bears !

Epenesa has 6.5 sacks for this season.  With the Bills rotating their DL very aggressively, we are never likely to have 10-15 sack season from your backup DE.

 

I think AJ has filled in well for Miller.

 

Did the Bills whifff on getting a Blue chip player - Yes 

Did the Bills whiff on getting a solid player - No

I really don’t even think that they wiffed on getting the blue chip player because they did get Russo. I just would like to see more out of Basham.

[wppete]

For a second round pick he is definitely a disappointment so far. Hopefully he turns it around. 

[davefan66]

7 hours ago, CountDorkula said:

Just because one player turns out doesn’t mean the other player shouldn’t feel pressure to.  
 

It was and has always been a bad pick in terms of positional need, player, resources used on the position etc. 

 

My point was Groot, good or bad, takes the pressure off of Basham to perform.

 

Basham does what he’s asked to do.  In the rotation with other guys as part of our scheme. Dline play doesn’t drop off when he’s in.  He’s played well.

 

Now if AJ and Boogie played more downs, one could perceive they’d have better stats. That’s not this Dline. Rotation is.

[mjt328]

4 hours ago, HappyDays said:

The 2020 draft was excellent. We came away with:

 

-A top 5 at his position #1 WR

-A strong #3 WR with vertical traits

-One of the best and most clutch kickers in the league

-An adequate #2 CB

-A rotational/situational pass rusher

 

If you don't think that's a great haul you're not being realistic.

 

My standard for a "good" draft is emerging with three NFL starters (meaning players who would be in the starting lineup on MOST of the 32 teams).

- Any draft where the 1st Rounder doesn't eventually start is a massive failure.  No exceptions.

- A GM should be able to find success with either his 2nd or 3rd Rounder.

- That leaves one additional starter in either the final 4 rounds or undrafted free agency.

 

This regime succeeded in doing this in 2017 (White, Dawkins, Milano), 2018 (Allen, Edmunds, Phillips, Johnson, Teller) and 2019 (Oliver, Singletary, Knox).  They are the foundation for why this team has become one of the NFL's top franchises. 

 

Unfortunately, the 2020 draft does not measure up to those standards.  Stefon Diggs was obviously a huge hit.  But he's really the only solid starter we got.  Gabe Davis showed promise, but has disappointed in what was supposed to be his big breakout season.  Everyone is calling for Dane Jackson to be replaced, and I don't think he starts on most teams.  AJ Epenesa is also a backup.  Tyler Bass was a nice grab, but I don't like to count kickers.

 

2021 is looking iffy so far.  Greg Rousseau looks like a hit.  Spencer Brown has been inconsistent.  Damar Hamlin has been up and down with his big opportunity.  Boogie Basham will be lucky to reach the Epenesa's level at this point.  But like I said, I'll give them until Year 3.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, cba fan said:

Yes. Also, the Epenesa pick.

Actually, Epenesa starting to come on 6 1/2 sacks in a heavy line rotation is not bad

[Nitro]

Context is important in assessing a draft pick and his performance.  Bills needed to build up the pass rush.  That draft the talent at DE was lean and dropped off after the second round.  He is performing as well as I thought he would.  The plan pre-Von Miller was to rotate DE to rush the passer.  Look at those guys drafted after him and there are very few standouts.

[cDAVIS]

11 hours ago, uticaclub said:

If Allen is a bust, McDermott & Beane aren't here in 2022. This team is nothing special outside of Allen.

They've had a top 2-5 defense every year but one. Without Allen they even went to the playoffs. What are you even talking about?

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, mjt328 said:

 

My standard for a "good" draft is emerging with three NFL starters (meaning players who would be in the starting lineup on MOST of the 32 teams).

- Any draft where the 1st Rounder doesn't eventually start is a massive failure.  No exceptions.

- A GM should be able to find success with either his 2nd or 3rd Rounder.

- That leaves one additional starter in either the final 4 rounds or undrafted free agency.

 

This regime succeeded in doing this in 2017 (White, Dawkins, Milano), 2018 (Allen, Edmunds, Phillips, Johnson, Teller) and 2019 (Oliver, Singletary, Knox).  They are the foundation for why this team has become one of the NFL's top franchises. 

 

Unfortunately, the 2020 draft does not measure up to those standards.  Stefon Diggs was obviously a huge hit.  But he's really the only solid starter we got.  Gabe Davis showed promise, but has disappointed in what was supposed to be his big breakout season.  Everyone is calling for Dane Jackson to be replaced, and I don't think he starts on most teams.  AJ Epenesa is also a backup.  Tyler Bass was a nice grab, but I don't like to count kickers.

 

2021 is looking iffy so far.  Greg Rousseau looks like a hit.  Spencer Brown has been inconsistent.  Damar Hamlin has been up and down with his big opportunity.  Boogie Basham will be lucky to reach the Epenesa's level at this point.  But like I said, I'll give them until Year 3.

 

 

I mostly agree but I think junky need to take into account draft position.  So while Dane Jackson might not be a starting caliber CB, a solid depth player is pretty good value for a 7th round pick.   You can say the same thing about Hamlin as a 5th rounder.  
 

Conversely that’s what makes Boogie kind of a disappointing pick as a 2nd rounder.
 

 

[Richard Noggin]

Skipped ahead from page 2 to wonder aloud if the Bills have taken yet another power-based college edge rusher who projected more naturally as a DE/DT flex guy (and in Epenesa's case, a solid 3-4 5-tech DE)...and asked him to dramatically redesign his body and his game to fit as a svelte DE in our 4-3, 1-gapping defense. 

 

Basham's ceiling appears to be Shaq Lawson, which is funny. But also valuable.  

[JohnBonhamRocks]

Dudes got an 86 speed in Madden so that’s cool.

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Would you consider the Boogie Basham pick to be a disappointment?

 

 

No, for me the disappointment is that some people simply refuse to get it.

 

"It" being that evaluating picks too early is a ridiculous mistake.

 

 

 

Edited December 31, 2022 by Thurman#1