Erik Turner: Ken Dorsey bears the brunt of the blame for red zone woes

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

 

Can we adjust? 

[MiltonWaddams]

Yup. There just aren’t enough players that have been set up to succeed based on the plays that he’s called in the RZ. He either needs get creative or to start looking around the league a bit more and borrowing plays that work. 

[Victory Formation]

I don’t think so, at least not long term, at least not for us to transition into being a great team instead of just a good one.

 

McD is a good coach, not a great one. He’s a defensive guru whose defenses crap the bed in big moments. He’s not the offensive innovator that Josh Allen needs.

[Big Turk]

17 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

I don’t think so, at least not long term, at least not for us to transition into being a great team instead of just a good one.

 

McD is a good coach, not a great one. He’s a defensive guru whose defenses crap the bed in big moments. He’s not the offensive innovator that Josh Allen needs.

 

He isn't involved in the offensive gameplan so this makes zero sense.

[Victory Formation]

1 minute ago, Big Turk said:

 

He isn't involved in the offensive gameplan so this makes zero sense.

Wouldn’t you rather that we did have a HC who was involved with our offense? An Andy Reid or a Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan of sorts? 🤔

[LABILLBACKER]

23 minutes ago, Victory Formation said:

I don’t think so, at least not long term, at least not for us to transition into being a great team instead of just a good one.

 

McD is a good coach, not a great one. He’s a defensive guru whose defenses crap the bed in big moments. He’s not the offensive innovator that Josh Allen needs.

You can't be a defensive guru and have your defense fail every playoffs.  I agree Josh thrived his last 2 years with Daboll.  And he's struggling with Dorsey.  Patrick has Andy and it reflects in his play and stability. Josh is now kinda alone. The offensive concepts aren't working the same.  JA needs help & support. 

[billieve420]

Redzone play has definitely looked worse this year with Allen turning the ball over frequently. Dorsey should look at film from what worked last year and incorporate those concepts into the game plan.

[Success]

Dorsey needs to improve.  I have no problem giving him the benefit of the doubt that he CAN improve.  No one is as good their 1st year on the job as they end up being.

 

We don't really have time to waste here, though.  He needs to check the tape, see what worked last year & make adjustments.

 

[LABILLBACKER]

12 minutes ago, Success said:

Dorsey needs to improve.  I have no problem giving him the benefit of the doubt that he CAN improve.  No one is as good their 1st year on the job as they end up being.

 

We don't really have time to waste here, though.  He needs to check the tape, see what worked last year & make adjustments.

 

I agree we don't have the luxury of time. Dorsey has gotta retrace his Daboll steps. Buy Josh some time and use more of his concepts.  

[Richard Noggin]

The most concerning plays, to me, were two game-changers that displayed an obvious preparation deficiency for the Bills: the backed-up, goal line sneak where Gabe Davis's motion absolutely telegraphed the snap (based on film study) AND the last, OT interception, about which Patrick Peterson admits he knew the route to undercut based on film study. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

12 minutes ago, Richard Noggin said:

The most concerning plays, to me, were two game-changers that displayed an obvious preparation deficiency for the Bills: the backed-up, goal line sneak where Gabe Davis's motion absolutely telegraphed the snap (based on film study) AND the last, OT interception, about which Patrick Peterson admits he knew the route to undercut based on film study. 

Those were both blown plays by Allen imo…although there’s probably plenty of evidence of suspect playcalling by Dorsey I’m sure.  Peterson is kind of full of sh*t there lol 

 

allen had gabe in the back of the end zone for a likely td with minimal risk of anything worse than an incompletion and he completely missed the throw.  
The route concept was perfect  against that defense and Peterson was beat by a step

 

 

the sneak I still believe was the right call Allen just botched that one too…doesn’t at all matter that they telegraphed it.  When have you seen a sneak lose a half yard in nfl history even if the defense is loaded up to stop it and that’s before you could even get leverage from someone pushing from behind.   I think Allen was looking ahead and trying to take away some of the potential difficulty of the following play on the off chance they lost some fraction of a yard and he tried to run before securing the snap. 
 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

4 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Wouldn’t you rather that we did have a HC who was involved with our offense? An Andy Reid or a Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan of sorts? 🤔

McDermott has 11 more wins than Kyle and 3 less than McVey in same 6 years as HC. 
 

this is silly 

[CSBill]

17 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

The most concerning plays, to me, were two game-changers that displayed an obvious preparation deficiency for the Bills: the backed-up, goal line sneak where Gabe Davis's motion absolutely telegraphed the snap (based on film study)

 

Really? 70,000 people in the stadium knew what was going to be called, and should be called. How about they just did not execute it correctly. It was a 1 in a 100 times failure. Unfortunately, the 1 really bites.

Edited November 17, 2022 by CSBill

[BarleyNY]

1 hour ago, CSBill said:

 

Really? 70,000 people in the stadium knew what was going to be called, and should be called. How about they just did not execute it correctly. It was a a 1 in a 100 times failure. Unfortunately, the 1 really bites.

Heard a stat on NFL radio about this. They said that it was only the second time in the last 10 years that a QB trying to sneak the ball out of their own EZ fumbled it away for a defensive TD. The crazy thing was that the other time was also Josh Allen. Does anybody else remember that?

[Freak-O]

8 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You can't be a defensive guru and have your defense fail every playoffs.  I agree Josh thrived his last 2 years with Daboll.  And he's struggling with Dorsey.  Patrick has Andy and it reflects in his play and stability. Josh is now kinda alone. The offensive concepts aren't working the same.  JA needs help & support. 

I wouldn’t say he’s struggling. Just a few games ago he was the front runner for the MVP title. He’s in a slump and injured to an unknown degree. The entire team is injured. 

[HOUSE]

Finally we found a scapegoat for interceptions and fumbled footballs on the goal line 

[BarleyNY]

8 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Wouldn’t you rather that we did have a HC who was involved with our offense? An Andy Reid or a Sean McVay or Kyle Shanahan of sorts? 🤔
 

 

Long term this is definitely a concern. Successful OCs will always be in high demand for HC jobs and replacing them will always be more difficult than replacing DCs. 
 

As for where the blame for our crunch time struggles lies, it’s both Dorsey and Allen. The combination of the simplistic route trees/combinations and Allen locking into Diggs and Davis at those times is a killer. Defenses know which two receivers to worry about and they have a very good idea what routes they’ll be running. Their job couldn’t be much easier. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

This isn’t shocking. 
 

The spacing in the Red Zone is horrible.

 

You have players running the same routes, ending up in the same area. 
 

So Allen just takes it on himself to run more.

 

The other thing I see is there is never a dump off option in the flat. 
 

All or nothing routes with guys deep in the end zone. 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Straight Hucklebuck

[Not at the table Karlos]

8 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

He isn't involved in the offensive gameplan so this makes zero sense.

The head coach should be involved in everything. Belichick was a defensive coordinator and a defensive head coach. He called up Urban Meyer to learn the spread and how to score more points. Great coaches learn the entire game. That's why belichick has his coaches start on the opposite side of the ball so you can understand how defenses will try to stop you and you know how to adjust.  He should be able to help Dorsey with his game plans or designs. If he's not or can't we seriously need to look into replacing him 

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by Not at the table Karlos

[Lost]

9 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

 

Can we adjust? 

 

Can we just hire this dude to be our OC?

[zow2]

They should be using the hell out of Singletary and Nyheim Hines down inside the 10.  It's too much of Allen trying to throw into impossibly tight windows, or throwing directly to a defender he didn't see due to a compressed field.

[Not at the table Karlos]

2 minutes ago, zow2 said:

They should be using the hell out of Singletary and Nyheim Hines down inside the 10.  It's too much of Allen trying to throw into impossibly tight windows, or throwing directly to a defender he didn't see due to a compressed field.

He's throwing to defenders he didn't see with almost a full field. The compressed field isn't the problem with Allen 

[nucci]

9 hours ago, MiltonWaddams said:

Yup. There just aren’t enough players that have been set up to succeed based on the plays that he’s called in the RZ. He either needs get creative or to start looking around the league a bit more and borrowing plays that work. 

For all of Dabols faults, his red zone offense was great.....there's no motion or any type of movement anymore. just go out and hope Allen makes a great play

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

9 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

Erik Turner: Ken Dorsey bears the brunt of the blame for red zone woes

 

The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There's no stopping in a white zone.

[Coach Tuesday]

On the first INT, McKenzie ran his route OUT OF BOUNDS and then just stood there, OUT OF BOUNDS, keeping his defender (Peterson) in position to make the play.

 

Dorsey is clearly out of his league but there is also a talent problem on offense that many of us were carping about all offseason.

[nucci]

2 minutes ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There's no stopping in a white zone.

don't give me any of this red zone....

[BillsFanSD]

7 minutes ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There's no stopping in a white zone.

We both know perfectly well what this is about.  You want me to have an abortion. 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

On the first INT, McKenzie ran his route OUT OF BOUNDS and then just stood there, OUT OF BOUNDS, keeping his defender (Peterson) in position to make the play.

 

Dorsey is clearly out of his league but there is also a talent problem on offense that many of us were carping about all offseason.

It's still so strange they didn't address WR early in the draft either of the last 2 years. 

 

The Eagles have a 10th overall pick WR and still trade for AJ Brown. Miami has a 6th overall and still sign Tyreek Hill. The Bills are satisfied with Diggs and some guys. I just don't understand why you wouldn't want a 'pick your poison' situation where if you give extra attention to Diggs the other side just kills you.

[Haslett_Stomp]

This reinforces what I thought during the Vikings game.  Allen has recently looked lost at times when they show him close-up and seems like he either doesn't trust what he is seeing on the field or the play call.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Haslett_Stomp

[78thealltimegreat]

9 hours ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

 

Can we adjust? 

Yeh great 20-20 but doesn’t have any new concepts inside the 20 other then see Josh throw…see Josh scramble 

[Royale with Cheese]

21 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

On the first INT, McKenzie ran his route OUT OF BOUNDS and then just stood there, OUT OF BOUNDS, keeping his defender (Peterson) in position to make the play.

 

Dorsey is clearly out of his league but there is also a talent problem on offense that many of us were carping about all offseason.

 

With Dorsey being clearly out of his league and our offense lacks talent, I haven't checked the stats but I assume we are probably bottom of the league in total offense and scoring?  

[78thealltimegreat]

25 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

On the first INT, McKenzie ran his route OUT OF BOUNDS and then just stood there, OUT OF BOUNDS, keeping his defender (Peterson) in position to make the play.

 

Dorsey is clearly out of his league but there is also a talent problem on offense that many of us were carping about all offseason.

We never adequately replaced Beasley thinking McKenzie could just slide into his place. Cole meant alot to Josh and was his safety blanket till that gets rectified with maybe Shakir or someone else these things are still going to happen 

[loveorhatembillsfan4life]

17 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

It's still so strange they didn't address WR early in the draft either of the last 2 years. 

 

The Eagles have a 10th overall pick WR and still trade for AJ Brown. Miami has a 6th overall and still sign Tyreek Hill. The Bills are satisfied with Diggs and some guys. I just don't understand why you wouldn't want a 'pick your poison' situation where if you give extra attention to Diggs the other side just kills you.

And the Chiefs take a flyer on Toney who had a pretty nice game last week. You wonder why the Chiefs are always in play for more Wr? They are never satisfied to put enough weapons around Mahomes..

 

Gabe seems to be our best deep threat but might be seeing more double coverage lately..McKenzie for all his speed hasn’t really forced anyone to really worry about him. Teams will just let him mess up mentally.

 

Not sure why we aren’t utilizing Knox more often. 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

40 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

On the first INT, McKenzie ran his route OUT OF BOUNDS and then just stood there, OUT OF BOUNDS, keeping his defender (Peterson) in position to make the play.

 

Dorsey is clearly out of his league but there is also a talent problem on offense that many of us were carping about all offseason.

 

What should he do?  If hes on the field the ball might get thrown to him (on 4th down) that he can't catch.  

9 minutes ago, loveorhatembillsfan4life said:

And the Chiefs take a flyer on Toney who had a pretty nice game last week. You wonder why the Chiefs are always in play for more Wr? They are never satisfied to put enough weapons around Mahomes..

 

Gabe seems to be our best deep threat but might be seeing more double coverage lately..McKenzie for all his speed hasn’t really forced anyone to really worry about him. Teams will just let him mess up mentally.

 

Not sure why we aren’t utilizing Knox more often. 

 

 

On the play before the 4th down INT Davis just stopped running in the middle of the field... directly where mckenzie was going to run for a likely TD.   To me that seems like Davis made the mental mistake.  

Edited November 17, 2022 by Bleeding Bills Blue

[Thurman#1]

10 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

I don’t think so, at least not long term, at least not for us to transition into being a great team instead of just a good one.

 

McD is a good coach, not a great one. He’s a defensive guru whose defenses crap the bed in big moments. He’s not the offensive innovator that Josh Allen needs.

 

 

Nah.

 

He doesn't need an offensive innovator, he needs a good offensive coach. Which Dorsey may well be, though you can't be sure yet, either way.

 

And he certainly doesn't need an offensive innovator or a good offensive coach as head coach.

 

At  head coach, he needs a good head coach. Period. Was Brady handicapped because Belichick was a defensive specialist?

 

More, there's no reason to think that McDermott isn't a great head coach. At the end of his fifth year as HC, Belichick was getting fired. As we know, it wasn't because he was incapable as a head coach.

 

Oh, and his defense stopped them at the one-foot line. That's not crapping the bed. Anything but. And they did that despite about five starters being out. Sorry, that's absolute nonsense. They sure weren't perfect. That play where Lewis went for the INT rather than the knock-down sure was absolutely awful. But it wasn't a failure of coaching. Players make mistakes sometimes too. And yet the D played pretty well despite missing Edmunds (anyone else notice that things went downhill after he went out? 10 points, 151 yards, an INT, two punts and a turnover on downs in the first half when he was on the field), Poyer, Hyde, of course White and also Rousseau being out.

 

37 minutes ago, 2020 Our Year For Sure said:

It's still so strange they didn't address WR early in the draft either of the last 2 years. 

 

The Eagles have a 10th overall pick WR and still trade for AJ Brown. Miami has a 6th overall and still sign Tyreek Hill. The Bills are satisfied with Diggs and some guys. I just don't understand why you wouldn't want a 'pick your poison' situation where if you give extra attention to Diggs the other side just kills you.

 

 

I don't doubt they want another receiver. Nobody should doubt it. 

 

But you can't get everything you want. It doesn't work that way. Every team makes trade-offs.

 

We've got a terrific roster.

 

Oh, and Shakir may be that third pick-your-poison guy. Can't be sure but he looks good for how young he is.

Edited November 17, 2022 by Thurman#1

[dpberr]

Push or shove, Dorsey/Allen must start trusting players not named Diggs/Davis/Knox.  

 

The smart play is to start calling plays for guys like Morris, Gilliam, Hines.  They've been open.  

 

Hell, start throwing to eligible linemen.  I don't care.  

 

[ddaryl]

53 minutes ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

 

The red zone is for immediate loading and unloading of passengers only. There's no stopping in a white zone.

If you wish to load or unload please use the white zone

This is the central scruitnizer

FZ-Joe's Garage

 

 

 

 

.......Is anyone still afraid of losing Dorsey to a HC job...LOL!

 

Edited November 17, 2022 by ddaryl

[Thurman#1]

48 minutes ago, Coach Tuesday said:

On the first INT, McKenzie ran his route OUT OF BOUNDS and then just stood there, OUT OF BOUNDS, keeping his defender (Peterson) in position to make the play.

 

Dorsey is clearly out of his league but there is also a talent problem on offense that many of us were carping about all offseason.

 

 

 

Think Peterson's going to cover a guy who's been out of bounds and thus can't be first to touch the ball when he comes back in?

 

Interestingly, the play he should have made there was to (unobtrusively) pull Peterson out of bounds with him so he also can't be first to touch the ball. I hadn't thought of that, but JT O'Sullivan pointed that out about McKenzie on this play during this video about Allen's problems and how he works even better when he can throw within the play design.

 

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

38 minutes ago, 78thealltimegreat said:

We never adequately replaced Beasley thinking McKenzie could just slide into his place. Cole meant alot to Josh and was his safety blanket till that gets rectified with maybe Shakir or someone else these things are still going to happen 

 

 

They brought in Crowder. A very good slot. They thought between McKenzie, Crowder and Shakir they'd find somebody. And Crowder was supposed to be the safety blanket in case the other two don't work out or need more time. 

 

Unfortunately, he's injured.

[HappyDays]

28 minutes ago, Bleeding Bills Blue said:

What should he do?  If hes on the field the ball might get thrown to him (on 4th down) that he can't catch.  

 

If he pulls Peterson out of bounds with him, Peterson isn't allowed to touch the ball. It's a niche rule so maybe he didn't know it. But he definitely shouldn't just stand there watching when Peterson intercepts it and runs down the field, like he doesn't even care. Personally I would inactivate McKenzie next week after seeing that on tape. You can't be a clumsy undependable player and also have your head that far out of the game. Send him a message.