Anybody see replay of Dion's holding penalty

[TheBrownBear]

17 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Looks like he tackled the guy.  If Dion was in such great position why not stay in front of him?  Pretty sure we would see it differently is Von was blowing past a guy and was form tackled.

Did you watch the video linked above?  Dawkins is in great position and when the defender tries to swim around him, Dawkins just pancakes him while finishing the block.  In no way, shape or form is that a hold.

[Breakout Squad]

2 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

 

The defender got laid out sideways. I don’t see holding but I begrudgingly can accept that a ref at game speed would see that and think it’s holding. It just sucks because Allen and Diggs made a great play. 

[mikemac2001]

2 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

Did you watch the video linked above?  Dawkins is in great position and when the defender tries to swim around him, Dawkins just pancakes him while finishing the block.  In no way, shape or form is that a hold.

To call the first hold on that play at that moment is a ***** joke - add in that INT that was stolen away is total BS 

[BUFFALOTONE]

Reminds me of the horrific call an umpire made last year against the Bengals in the Jets game. DB came up to stop the run made a great play to force a 4th down and the ref threw the flag for lowering his head… was a textbook tackle. The same ref has apparently made these bad calls in the past. Wonder if it’s the same

guy. 

[CEN-CAL17]

Also looks like the defenders feet may have been tripped up…. That’s a shiit call in that point of the game

[John from Riverside]

My problem is they were letting holding go all day long and then in the final minutes throw a flag on a very very iffee Call

 

Be consistent please refs

[Rigotz]

3 hours ago, freddyjj said:

Courtesy of Buffalo Rumblings, towards bottom of article

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2022/11/7/23444027/bills-jets-penalty-recap-gabe-davis-sauce-gardner-dion-dawkins

 

 

 

 

This is fantastic, for anyone who may have missed it. Fair call, not rigged.

[BananaB]

3 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

The fact that they didn't replay it on TV was a huge indication on how bad of a call it was.

I think the same thing happened in the Miami game on the last drive. 

[Jauronimo]

1 hour ago, TheBrownBear said:

Did you watch the video linked above?  Dawkins is in great position and when the defender tries to swim around him, Dawkins just pancakes him while finishing the block.  In no way, shape or form is that a hold.

Watched it.  Thats not a pancake block.  

 

Dion's hands are outside the pads.  He's being driven back into the pocket.  Dion is out of position at the 3 second mark since the defender has inside leverage and Dion's hips are now pointing toward the right tackle.  Dion is spinning inside and falls on the defender.  Thats going to get called more often than not. Watch it frame by frame.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Jauronimo

[BananaB]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I've never been one to point to one play that decides a game.  Take away the two bone-headed INTs and the Bills aren't worrying about a 4th Quarter comeback.

 

So two plays can decide games….  All plays matter, you can play ***** for 55 minutes and still win a game if the score is close.  The worst thing for football is the refs making bad calls that effect the game. Going from 1st and ten at the 49 to 1st and 20 at at your 15 is big, especially in the closing minutes when a team doesn’t have any timeouts. 

[BananaB]

3 hours ago, freddyjj said:

Courtesy of Buffalo Rumblings, towards bottom of article

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2022/11/7/23444027/bills-jets-penalty-recap-gabe-davis-sauce-gardner-dion-dawkins

 

 

 

Just watching this and Gardners hand looked open but he had the side of Gabes shoulder pads for sure. Gabe gave a little push off and is immediately pulled back in. It’s clear as day in that slow mo replay. Even when they circle the open hand on his back you can see his fingers curl around his shoulder pads. It’s like you see his fingers, then you don’t when he yanks him, then they open again. 

Edited November 10, 2022 by BananaB

[Simon]

19 minutes ago, Jauronimo said:

Watched it.  Thats not a pancake block.  

 

Dion's hands are outside the pads.  He's being driven back into the pocket.  Dion is out of position at the 3 second mark since the defender has inside leverage and Dion's hips are now pointing toward the right tackle.  Dion is spinning inside and falls on the defender.  Thats going to get called more often than not. Watch it frame by frame.

 

Yeah, I thought he was off balance and pulled him down with his right hand.

It wasn't a horrible penalty; he hid it very well, most refs aren't going to reach for non-egregious flags at that point in a game and they'd been letting them play all day.

It was just really ***** luck that probably not only ended up changing the outcome of the game, but led to Allen being injured shortly after. 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I'm not saying there aren't close games that are decided in the last minute/as time runs out.  I'm saying that there are 59 other minutes of football that had a say in the outcome, as well.

 

Every second of every game has a say in the outcome. This call was just as important to the Jets as the stolen interception. 

[BarleyNY]

JFC. People act like a call/non-call never goes in the Bills favor. I sure never see a thread about one when the Bills win. 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Jauronimo said:

Watched it.  Thats not a pancake block.  

 

Dion's hands are outside the pads.  He's being driven back into the pocket.  Dion is out of position at the 3 second mark since the defender has inside leverage and Dion's hips are now pointing toward the right tackle.  Dion is spinning inside and falls on the defender.  Thats going to get called more often than not. Watch it frame by frame.

Agree 100 percent, and Dawkins got his arms outside on the takedown.

[AlfaBill]

So they decide to let them play All game but call a ticky tacky call on a big play at the end and then DONT call a easy DPI??  
 

that broke my 🏈 s more than anything!

Edited November 10, 2022 by AlfaBill

[Bermuda Triangle]

4 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I've never been one to point to one play that decides a game.  Take away the two bone-headed INTs and the Bills aren't worrying about a 4th Quarter comeback.

 

so you're saying that two plays decided the game?

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, Jauronimo said:

Looks like he tackled the guy.  If Dion was in such great position why not stay in front of him?  Pretty sure we would see it differently is Von was blowing past a guy and was form tackled.

Yes that's what it looked like, and that's why can't complain too much.  But when you look at what happened you can see he didn't tackle him. He executed his block excellently and his man fell over.  

[Buffalo_Stampede]

A different play but Dawkins with the clothesline.

 

 

[Freddie's Dead]

I just rewatched the play as a part of doing The Saffold Report.  The defender actually tripped over other OL and DL feet out there.  Dawkins only pancaked him because the guy tripped.  Compared to the holding the Jets #70 laid on DaQuan Jones at the point of attack on the Carter TD, this also should not have been called.  The refs cost us the game with this call, the non-INT, the non-call on blocking in the back on screen to Carter the play before the Carter TD, and the non-call on the holding on the Carter TD.  Just brutal reffing.

[Nextmanup]

5 hours ago, RobbRiddick said:

Did Diggs have both feet down? From my elderly memory it looked on the replay like one of them was just above the turf when he went out

Had the penalty not been called, the catch would have been reviewed, and it would have been ruled NO CATCH.

 

He was indeed out of bounds.

 

That's my opinion at least.

 

 

[Gugny]

3 hours ago, BananaB said:

So two plays can decide games….  All plays matter, you can play ***** for 55 minutes and still win a game if the score is close.  The worst thing for football is the refs making bad calls that effect the game. Going from 1st and ten at the 49 to 1st and 20 at at your 15 is big, especially in the closing minutes when a team doesn’t have any timeouts. 

 

If we're using some kind of weight system, I'd say that two interceptions that were nowhere near close to Bills receivers far outweighs a holding call.  The Bills offense sucked .. primarily because of Josh Allen's crappy play and that is why they lost the game.  Not because of a holding call at the end of the 4th quarter.  

2 hours ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

so you're saying that two plays decided the game?

 

Yes.  To some people, that is what I'm saying.

[Brand J]

It’s the butterfly effect… if the ref doesn’t throw a flag for holding, Josh doesn’t injure his elbow. If Tremaine doesn’t hit Dane Jackson’s neck earlier this year, there is no time delay to see to Jackson’s neck, therefore Micah Hyde never injures his neck… because the play where he did it wouldn’t have happened at that particular point in time. Of course all sorts of dynamics change with every play. Could be others who got injured at some point. Or maybe no one.

[GunnerBill]

13 hours ago, folz said:

Just watched the All-22 of the play a bunch of times.

 

It was a bad call, but I can see how/why the ref made the call. The defender sets up outside Dion's left shoulder, then rushes inside. Dion does a good job of engaging and sliding to keep the man in front of him. From the ref's perspective, he sees the defender's head poke out around Dion and then all of a sudden the defender is falling sideways to the ground and Dion has one hand on his shoulder and another around his waist. So, from the ref's vantage point it probably looked like the defender was starting to win and Dion tackled him.

 

In reality, as the defender moved to his left, engaged with Dion, Saffold (I believe) pulls off his initial double team block with Morse to help Dion (but gets there late and is behind the defender). At the same time, Morse is being pushed back by his defender. The outcome is a lot of moving feet in the same area and the defender trips. You can clearly see one of the defender's feet get hooked behind the other and he trips. The defender starts falling down to the left and since Dion is still engaged with him, he starts going down too and rides the defender to the ground. Good play by Dion, just unfortunate that from the ref's vantage point, he couldn't see the trip and assumed it was a tackle. There is a possibility that Dion had a good hold on the defender's right shoulder pad, but that would have been a ticky-tack call and in the category of let them play...but the ref thought it was a tackle.

 

I understand let them play at that point, especially since the refs kept their flags in their pockets a lot that game. But, if it was an actual tackle (from the ref's perspective), then that is egregious enough to call even at that point in the game. 

 

The call definitely went the wrong way, but I don't think there was any bias, or the refs helping the Jets out...just bad luck how everything unfolded and the ref's view of it.

 

Agree. When I saw it live I immediately said "that's a hold, coming back." Even before the flag was thrown. That is what it looked like. When you watch the replay back you see that what you think happened didn't happen... but you are right it is such a messy play that I think that is a totally understandable mistake from the zebras. Falls into the category of "really hard job."

 

[Niagara Dude]

15 hours ago, Orlando Tim said:

I have seen it and based on what was called, or rather not called, consistently up to that point it was a bad call. It would have been ticky tack at the best of times.

You don't make iffy calls late in games,  this was about the refs helping out an ending to a great New York City story line. We're one of the best teams in the league and still no respect. 

[Bermuda Triangle]

7 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

If we're using some kind of weight system, I'd say that two interceptions that were nowhere near close to Bills receivers far outweighs a holding call.  The Bills offense sucked .. primarily because of Josh Allen's crappy play and that is why they lost the game.  Not because of a holding call at the end of the 4th quarter.  

 

Yes.  To some people, that is what I'm saying.

Oooh, we got a deep thinker, here!

8 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

You don't make iffy calls late in games,  this was about the refs helping out an ending to a great New York City story line. We're one of the best teams in the league and still no respect. 

Just no consistency in the officiating.  We're to believe that there was not a single instance of offensive holding in the first 58:00+?  

[Thurman#1]

16 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Yup, toe tapped right foot bringing up pellots.

 

 

Looked pretty questionable for me, honestly. I thought he didn't. But I wasn't sure there was enough evidence to overturn.

 

[TC in St. Louis]

Good pancake block.  As far as the catch, I think Diggs had both feet in bounds when he went up for the ball, and when he came down, he did not.  But, as we all know, the biggest play of the game was Josh's first pick, when he was screened and didn't see the guy closing in on the ball.  Stuff happens.  

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

Oooh, we got a deep thinker, here!

Just no consistency in the officiating.  We're to believe that there was not a single instance of offensive holding in the first 58:00+?  

 

 

Different holds look different. Look above you for Folz's excellent breakdown of what happened and how it must have looked to the ref.

 

11 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

A different play but Dawkins with the clothesline.

 

 

 

 

EEyowtch!

Edited November 10, 2022 by Thurman#1

[The Jokeman]

3 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Agree. When I saw it live I immediately said "that's a hold, coming back." Even before the flag was thrown. That is what it looked like. When you watch the replay back you see that what you think happened didn't happen... but you are right it is such a messy play that I think that is a totally understandable mistake from the zebras. Falls into the category of "really hard job."

 

and yet the ref in the sky can over turn other calls out of no where, why not all calls? or at least make all calls challange-able? 

[All_Pro_Bills]

12 hours ago, BananaB said:

Just watching this and Gardners hand looked open but he had the side of Gabes shoulder pads for sure. Gabe gave a little push off and is immediately pulled back in. It’s clear as day in that slow mo replay. Even when they circle the open hand on his back you can see his fingers curl around his shoulder pads. It’s like you see his fingers, then you don’t when he yanks him, then they open again. 

Gardner was making contact with the Davis and turning the receiver which impeded his ability get his right arm free in order to attempt the catch.  The defender never attempted to play the ball which sometimes results in a penalty flag.  But not this time.  I think Gardner played on the edge there doing just enough to break up the pass but not enough to make it an obvious call for the official.  In this case the ref chose not to make a 50/50 type call.  The result was a smart play by the CB. 

 

In the case of Dawkins I watched the replay of the holding call several times again and my conclusion is Dawkins wasn't holding any more or less than every other offensive lineman does in any other game and on any other pass play that doesn't get called for holding. 

 

I think replay would have resulted in the Diggs catch being out of bounds and the result of the play should have been a 2nd and 10 vs. 1st and 20 on a holding call.    

[Thurman#1]

11 hours ago, Freddie's Dead said:

I just rewatched the play as a part of doing The Saffold Report.  The defender actually tripped over other OL and DL feet out there.  Dawkins only pancaked him because the guy tripped.  Compared to the holding the Jets #70 laid on DaQuan Jones at the point of attack on the Carter TD, this also should not have been called.  The refs cost us the game with this call, the non-INT, the non-call on blocking in the back on screen to Carter the play before the Carter TD, and the non-call on the holding on the Carter TD.  Just brutal reffing.

 

 

When you have your hand all the way around the DL's back, you're going to draw calls.

 

In any case, the reffing wasn't the problem. The Bills offense in particular not playing well enough to make the ref's calls irrelevant was the problem.

 

Look at Dawkins' clothesline there. Wasn't called. Somehow nobody mentions the ones we get away with.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Thurman#1

[AuntieEm]

15 hours ago, Repulsif said:

everytime when an offensive penalty is called, TV replay it.

Not this time...

 

   Well they were trying to replay it for TV,  but they TV producer couldn't find any footage on any hold so they had nothing to show.  

Edited November 10, 2022 by AuntieEm

[Thurman#1]

7 minutes ago, AuntieEm said:

 

   Well they were trying to replay it for TV,  but they TV producer couldn't find any footage on any hold so they had nothing to show.  

 

 

There's nothing to this. They showed the catch over and over again. It was interesting and probably not a catch anyway.

[CircleTheWagons99]

They missed many holding calls on the jets as well as a chop block on Groot where he hurt his ankle and a couple of PI non-calls on the Jets including at the end, WHICH BRADY, RODGERS always get.  Its almost like the NFL wanted an out come and made sure of it happening.  WWE.......

[HoofHearted]

18 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Such a huge play and call. 1:43 left and Diggsy makes an amazing catch. Instantly put us at NYJ49. Was it an egregious flag by Land Shark? If that flag isn't thrown, Josh does get hurt.  Anyone see it on tape or all22?

If it was truly called on Dawkins it was a bad call. The DE Dawkins was blocking tripped over someone else's foot and fell which made it look worse than what it was. However, Q held for sure on the same play so it's a wash.

[CircleTheWagons99]

Jets have the second most holding calls this season (12), to not get flagged once is a joke by the NFL....

 

Buffalo has 6.

Edited November 10, 2022 by CircleTheWagons99

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Looks like the DL was tackled. 

 

I think it was a clean play but 99% of the time the ref will throw a flag for that

[BADOLBILZ]

 

Bills played a stupid game........and got stupid prizes........penalties and a QB injury.

 

No team has ever played a great game and lost because of officiating............teams play themselves into close games and then fate/human error play a larger role.

 

Some people will never be able to accept this reality but that's OK with the NFL............nothing bonds fans to their team like the perception of outside injustice affecting a result.   

[Florida Bills Fanatic]

I watched the play several times and think it was a bogus call. The tangled legs and the stumble were pretty obvious.  When you consider what they didn't call throughout the game, it was pathetic.