On to Minnesota (get this game in the rear view mirror!)

[Greg S]

6 minutes ago, Gugny said:

Line is now Bills -3.5

 

I would take the Bills and give the points. Good news here it looks like we will be getting some players back from injury.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

 

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

No.

 

 

[Process]

So sick of injury reports that read like a goddamn novel. I'm at a point where I really am starting to not care about the rest of the regular season. Don't care about Josh mvp. Don't care about the one seed. Don't care about the division. Just get to the playoffs. And wake me up in January when hopefully the best player in the league will be healthy, and anything can happen. 

[Beast]

3 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Not knocking you, YOLO, but does someone think they shouldn’t be practicing?

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Big Turk]

Early forecast: 

 

[Steptide]

Sorry, I'm not usually negative Nancy, but if keenum starts, I expect the bills to lose by 14. I watched enough of keenum with a fairly talented Browns team to know he's not that good. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not even gonna get pumped up for this game if keenum starts. Not sure what others have seen from him that makes them think he can be good. He had one good season in Minnesota 5 years ago

[Stank_Nasty]

23 minutes ago, Steptide said:

Sorry, I'm not usually negative Nancy, but if keenum starts, I expect the bills to lose by 14. I watched enough of keenum with a fairly talented Browns team to know he's not that good. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not even gonna get pumped up for this game if keenum starts. Not sure what others have seen from him that makes them think he can be good. He had one good season in Minnesota 5 years ago

the vikings needed a last second FG to beat Andy FREAKING dalton, they beat a bridewater led fins team by one score, and then had to come back from 17-7 last week in the 4th to yet another backup qb in washington. not to mention they beat the bears by just one score when fields was playing like steaming dog crap...chill man.... keenum went 2-0 last year, completing 65% of his passes for 3td and just 1 int. this game is dicey but plenty winnable with keenum under center.

Edited November 9, 2022 by Stank_Nasty

[Steptide]

14 minutes ago, Stank_Nasty said:

the vikings needed a last second FG to beat Andy FREAKING dalton, they beat a bridewater led fins team by one score, and then had to come back from 17-7 last week in the 4th to yet another backup qb in washington. not to mention they beat the bears by just one score when fields was playing like steaming dog crap...chill man.... keenum went 2-0 last year, completing 65% of his passes for 3td and just 1 int. this game is dicey but plenty winnable with keenum under center.

I hope you're right. Obviously I want the bills to win regardless who starts. Games like last week give me huge pause though. We saw this last year too though (bad losses) and the bills bounced back so 🤷

[ShakAttack]

5 hours ago, Gugny said:

Line is now Bills -3.5

If there are no major updates between now and Sunday, I think this is where the line settles. 

[Beck Water]

5 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Snarky response:

5 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

That's supposed to be a comeback route, yes?  I hope?

 

Compared to Josh Allen, Barkley and Keenum kinda move like busted mower in tall grass

[jkeerie]

I just saw this online.  The weatherp pattern reminded me of the Bills logo.  It's heading for Minnesota.  A good omen?   https://www.msn.com/en-us/weather/topstories/winter-is-coming-first-blizzard-of-the-season-set-to-drop-snow-across-north-central-us/ar-AA13VAvT

[Beck Water]

6 hours ago, RunTheBall said:

Any injury to Josh’s throwing arm is a potential disaster. In my struggle to find anything positive out of the disgusting last 6 quarters, it’s that if Josh can play, maybe he and Dorsey will be forced to emphasize the short game more. Josh has been forcing it for 6 quarters. He’s giving up the easy short stuff again for tight window throws on bracketed receivers further down the field. If he can play, I don’t think the game plan will be constant downfield throws. Heck, Dorsey may even be forced to run the ball a little. I’ll say it again, this team needs an effective running game to go far in the playoffs. They abandon it too quickly and IDK if that’s Josh switching up the plays or Dorsey being pass happy. The O needs to be fixed quick and that includes putting receivers on the field who actually catch the damn ball. I’m getting sick of Davis dropping balls that a competent #2 would catch. I love his potential but I hate that he has a breakout game then disappears for 3-4 games then pops up again.

 

I find myself in strong agreement here. 

 

One point: you say "maybe he and Dorsey will be forced to emphasize the short game more", and then correctly note that Josh has been passing over (pun intended) the open short/intermediate receivers for well-covered throws to Diggs or Davis downfield. 

 

I'm not sure how much of that is Dorsey and how much of that is Josh.

 

In Dorsey's presser, he made a point, several times in several ways, about distributing the ball to different receivers.  Yeah, he did the statutory McDermott "got to put the players in better positions to succeed" thing but, off the top of my head, Dorsey said:

-said he looks first at how many receivers had multiple receptions because the offense works better when the ball is distributed to multiple players

-said he emphasizes to Josh once the play is called, look at the reads and progressions and go where they take you, don't focus on one guy

-said a second time that "we need to make sure we're distributing the ball"

 

In McDermott's presser right after the loss, he was asked whether the lack of production behind Diggs worried him, and he said something to the effect of I'll have to look at the tape.  Today he spoke several times about distributing the ball, "you keep people engaged that way" etc.

 

After the loss Josh said "when you have a guy like Stef you have to find more ways to get him the ball" which, given that Diggs already has more than 2x the targets of anyone else.....left me with the feeling that just perhaps, Dorsey and McDermott and Josh are not on the same page about "distributing the ball".  Ultimately of course, if we distribute the ball to other open receivers (who I think are there on most plays) and stay on the field, it would result in more opportunities for Diggs as some of the defensive attention would have to come off him and we'd have more plays overall.

 

As far as Davis....Josh isn't helping his catch % by giving him these deep balls into tight coverage, but Davis is not making catches he could/should make in other contexts.

 

 

[UKBillFan]

I have a feeling that Josh trusts Diggs but that’s it. He’ll throw to the likes of Davis, McKenzie, Shakir and Knox if they’re there but they’re not his preferred option. Maybe the interceptions have re-enforced that in his mind.

[Rc2catch]

2 hours ago, Steptide said:

Sorry, I'm not usually negative Nancy, but if keenum starts, I expect the bills to lose by 14. I watched enough of keenum with a fairly talented Browns team to know he's not that good. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not even gonna get pumped up for this game if keenum starts. Not sure what others have seen from him that makes them think he can be good. He had one good season in Minnesota 5 years ago

You’re not wrong. Keenum isn’t going to put the team on his shoulders and win games. But I do have faith he can do the little things and hit some open receivers and check downs. Buffalo has some run after catch potential. It’ll need to be a full team effort to make him effective. Dorsey will need some more creativity as well. 

[RichRiderBills]

26 minutes ago, UKBillFan said:

I have a feeling that Josh trusts Diggs but that’s it. He’ll throw to the likes of Davis, McKenzie, Shakir and Knox if they’re there but they’re not his preferred option. Maybe the interceptions have re-enforced that in his mind.

 

I dont really agree here; We just don't have a true # 2. We don't have a true # 2 OR a "big catch" slot guy like beeasley or welker.

 

The point is Josh just isn't taking the checkdowns...like ever... Brown was talking about this today, was just plain greedy all the time. It was like 2nd year Josh.

 

He's had a few games hitting 8 different recievers...

 

IMO we need to get back to basics like we did following the 2nd half of Tampa last year....more screens , check downs, and running. The big shots will come.

 

 

[John from Riverside]

To help out case

 

Run to tight end sets and actually use them

 

Run the ball in two te  sets

[dave mcbride]

4 hours ago, Steptide said:

Sorry, I'm not usually negative Nancy, but if keenum starts, I expect the bills to lose by 14. I watched enough of keenum with a fairly talented Browns team to know he's not that good. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not even gonna get pumped up for this game if keenum starts. Not sure what others have seen from him that makes them think he can be good. He had one good season in Minnesota 5 years ago

2-0 as a starter for the Browns last year. So honestly, not sure what you’re talking about. Granted, he had a great running game to work with. The Bills lack that, and it’s not the fault of the backs. The OL is horrible at run blocking. That’s the real issue when you start a guy like Keenum.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

Instead of focusing on our ailments, let’s look at the Vikings defensive strengths and deficiencies, and see how this might play into the Bills potential game plan, with or without, Josh Allen:

 

Below are a few Vikings defensive rankings in comparison to the rest of the league: 

 

Rush Yards Per Game (10th)

Pass Yards Per Game (27th)
Points Allowed Per Game (12th)

Total Sacks (9th)

- Za’Darius Smith leads the team with 8.5 and Danielle Hunter has 5

Thoughts -

 

It seems that the Vikings statistically have a middle of the road defense, who has shown the ability to create turnovers and get to the QB with their two main pass rushers. Their LBs (Kendricka/Hicks) are older, yet athletic, veteran players, as well as some of their secondary (Peterson/Smith).

 

Regardless of who is at QB, I would like to think that Dorsey can create a more horizontal attack than we’ve seen in the last few games. I want to put pressure on those edge rushers early, and create match ups with those LBs with some of our speedier guys (McKenzie, Hines, Cook).

 

I would hope to see some bubble screens and jet sweeps early while sprinkling in full-motion and misdirection later on to try and get this defense moving laterally. This can slow a pass rush, or avoid it entirely, if you are successful early. It also provides Allen or Case quick and reliable targets to get into a rhythm. Easier said than done, especially if they stick to a traditional 3-4 alignment. We’ll need WRs carrying a large blocking load, and Davis has proven capable in this role. 

I don’t anticipate a large philosophical pivot if Keenum plays. They aren’t changing up front, so they won’t all of a sudden be built to run the ball down the throats of the defense. Find ways to get our players a competitive advantage, with or without Allen, through alignment, misdirection, and pre-snap formations to  identify match ups that use speed and angles to find success. 
 

Im just going to leave this here:

 

Nyheim Hines 40 yard dash time? 4.38

 

 

 

[Richard Noggin]

1 hour ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

Instead of focusing on our ailments, let’s look at the Vikings defensive strengths and deficiencies, and see how this might play into the Bills potential game plan, with or without, Josh Allen:

 

Below are a few Vikings defensive rankings in comparison to the rest of the league: 

 

Rush Yards Per Game (10th)

Pass Yards Per Game (27th)
Points Allowed Per Game (12th)

Total Sacks (9th)

- Za’Darius Smith leads the team with 8.5 and Danielle Hunter has 5

Thoughts -

 

It seems that the Vikings statistically have a middle of the road defense, who has shown the ability to create turnovers and get to the QB with their two main pass rushers. Their LBs (Kendricka/Hicks) are older, yet athletic, veteran players, as well as some of their secondary (Peterson/Smith).

 

Regardless of who is at QB, I would like to think that Dorsey can create a more horizontal attack than we’ve seen in the last few games. I want to put pressure on those edge rushers early, and create match ups with those LBs with some of our speedier guys (McKenzie, Hines, Cook).

 

I would hope to see some bubble screens and jet sweeps early while sprinkling in full-motion and misdirection later on to try and get this defense moving laterally. This can slow a pass rush, or avoid it entirely, if you are successful early. It also provides Allen or Case quick and reliable targets to get into a rhythm. Easier said than done, especially if they stick to a traditional 3-4 alignment. We’ll need WRs carrying a large blocking load, and Davis has proven capable in this role. 

I don’t anticipate a large philosophical pivot if Keenum plays. They aren’t changing up front, so they won’t all of a sudden be built to run the ball down the throats of the defense. Find ways to get our players a competitive advantage, with or without Allen, through alignment, misdirection, and pre-snap formations to  identify match ups that use speed and angles to find success. 
 

Im just going to leave this here:

 

Nyheim Hines 40 yard dash time? 4.38

 

 

 

Love your suggested gameplan for a Case Keenum-led offense. I might even suggest that sprinkling in more of this with QB17 at the helm might help, moving forward. Gotta force defenses to defend the entire field. With Allen at QB, we know they're already worried about defending the deep areas. Force them to defend the flats and seams, too, while ALSO forcing your gunslinger to be less myopically aggressive. 

[LABILLBACKER]

6 hours ago, Steptide said:

Sorry, I'm not usually negative Nancy, but if keenum starts, I expect the bills to lose by 14. I watched enough of keenum with a fairly talented Browns team to know he's not that good. Hopefully I'm wrong, but I'm not even gonna get pumped up for this game if keenum starts. Not sure what others have seen from him that makes them think he can be good. He had one good season in Minnesota 5 years ago

I'm just terrified that Case is probably  better at practical jokes then quarterbacking.  Better get some D guys back to stay in this game.

[John from Riverside]

31 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

I'm just terrified that Case is probably  better at practical jokes then quarterbacking.  Better get some D guys back to stay in this game.

Case Keenum was widely considered one of the best backup QBs in the league now we’re afraid to play him

[Nelius]

Flying in for this one. First game in 3+ years. Obviously wanted to see Josh play but completely understand the situation if he's even a little bit hurt. I can get behind the Case-Diggs revenge game. I'm in the camp that there's still a slight chance however since it hasn't been completely ruled out. I'm also assuming that Josh heals like Wolverine because he's Josh Allen.

 

Cousins is my 3nd least favorite QB in the league. He was 1st for awhile, then Brady came back, and now he's pretended he's not an android this season which makes him a sliver more likeable so I moved him back a notch (Brady, Kyler, Cousins). But he's not a top tier QB. He's good enough to maybe steer you to the playoffs but we all know that's about it. He's the definition of QB purgatory. But, that might be all you need with a talent like Justin Jefferson. He's incredible, and I'm surprised I'm not seeing more fear of him specifically in this thread. I trust Case and company to push the ball for a few hundred yards and 20+ points more than I do our defense to stop a Cook-Jefferson combo right now.

[UKBillFan]

7 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

I dont really agree here; We just don't have a true # 2. We don't have a true # 2 OR a "big catch" slot guy like beeasley or welker.

 

The point is Josh just isn't taking the checkdowns...like ever... Brown was talking about this today, was just plain greedy all the time. It was like 2nd year Josh.

 

He's had a few games hitting 8 different recievers...

 

IMO we need to get back to basics like we did following the 2nd half of Tampa last year....more screens , check downs, and running. The big shots will come.

 

 

I agree regarding the lack of check downs and what really bugs is pre-bye he was doing this. I guess that’s why the Josh who appeared since the second half against Green Bay is so annoying - he seemed to have learned the lesson but has now regressed.

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, UKBillFan said:

I agree regarding the lack of check downs and what really bugs is pre-bye he was doing this. I guess that’s why the Josh who appeared since the second half against Green Bay is so annoying - he seemed to have learned the lesson but has now regressed.

Drops and inconsistent play will do that to a QB. Bad habits can creep back into his game.  Have to give him a realistic option in the slot; Crowder’s been out and McKenzie is just too unreliable. Bottom line : someone other than Diggs needs to step up. Maybe Shakir , possibly Hines could fill that role at times. They may need OBJ - if healthy of course. 

[LyndonvilleBill]

26 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Drops and inconsistent play will do that to a QB. Bad habits can creep back into his game.  Have to give him a realistic option in the slot; Crowder’s been out and McKenzie is just too unreliable. Bottom line : someone other than Diggs needs to step up. Maybe Shakir , possibly Hines could fill that role at times. They may need OBJ - if healthy of course. 

If drops and inconsistent play were the issue, why does Josh keep throwing to Davis?  Lil' Dirty has 2 drops. No he's not Beasley,  but he's the best we have in the slot at the moment. IMO, it's either Josh not wanting to take the short passes or Dorsey's play calls being too aggressive. 

 

I'd refer you to @Beck Water's post in the WR thread. I think the chart he posted is a good example of facts vs opinion. 

[Cygnus99]

I would not be surprised if the Bills win this one but also if the Vikings win it . It could go either way . It will be a very heart breaking loss for one of these teams , Hopefully we get a W. There is also a chance of a tie 

[Chandler#81]

 

[Casey D]

The Bills are a very good team.  If Josh cannot play, I would think the rest of the team would want to show that they can rally without Josh and win.  I expect a high- level performance on D, and competent on offense.  20-7 Bills without Allen.

[UKBillFan]

2 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

Drops and inconsistent play will do that to a QB. Bad habits can creep back into his game.  Have to give him a realistic option in the slot; Crowder’s been out and McKenzie is just too unreliable. Bottom line : someone other than Diggs needs to step up. Maybe Shakir , possibly Hines could fill that role at times. They may need OBJ - if healthy of course. 

 

We gave him options for a short passing game in the second half against the Packers and the Jets. For the most part he didn't take them and it cost us. Just like defense, the issue is execution over play calling. We could arguably let off the defense considering how it's decimated but a high calibre QB who had shown he'd developed his game away from that?

 

I'm interested to know what happened in training between the Packers and the Jets considerirng the warning signs were present during the former.

[Ray Stonada]

The Vikings are nowhere near as good as their record. They barely beat Miami who were starting Skylar Thompson!

 

Even with Jefferson, Thielen and Cook, the Vikings have scored less points than ANY team in the AFC East.

 

I think the Bills are gonna come together and expose them, either with Josh or for Josh.

[Big Turk]

 

[HopelessNJBuffaloFan]

17 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Early forecast: 

 

I thought the bottom list was just our roster, then i saw Injury report.... LMAO I destroyed my cell phone watching the Jets game and found out the Bills game is what we are seeing in NJ for the 1:00 game. I think i need the wife to duck tape my arms to my side so all i can do is scream (*&&^%^%$#$%$&^ while watching this game. Although with what the Bills most likely will be putting on the field i will just settle into we lost and any play showing anything better will be a pleasant surprise. 

[I'm Spartacus]

I think that if Keenum starts in place of JA, he will do well and Bills win. The dude is a veteran NFL quarterback. He made the team specifically for this situation.

[buffalobillswin]

3 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

 

There have been a few great Bills vs Vikings games. The 2002 Mike Hollis 54 yarder, Kyle Orton to Watkins as time expires come to mind. 

[Beck Water]

14 hours ago, RichRiderBills said:

 

I dont really agree here; We just don't have a true # 2. We don't have a true # 2 OR a "big catch" slot guy like beeasley or welker.

 

The point is Josh just isn't taking the checkdowns...like ever... Brown was talking about this today, was just plain greedy all the time. It was like 2nd year Josh.

 

He's had a few games hitting 8 different recievers...

 

IMO we need to get back to basics like we did following the 2nd half of Tampa last year....more screens , check downs, and running. The big shots will come.

 

Are you referring to Chris Brown on One Bills Live, or who?

 

It's true that Davis doesn't seem to be able (so far) to be stepping into the role of a #2 WR.  He is hit-or-miss.

 

I have to respectfully disagree that Josh is not taking the checkdowns "like ever". 

First of all if we look at this Bills receiver table I put up elsewhere (if you click it gets larger) we see that Singletary and Cook together have the 2nd most targets on the team.  I think 80% of those are checkdowns in the flat.  I didn't put up YBC and YAC stats, but for Singletary, 12 YBC and 195 YAC confirm this.

 

Where I think there's a better point to be made, is that Josh seems to overlook the almost sure shot to the NFL-open receiver on the short or intermediate route (TE, RB, WR) who is short of the chains or EZ but open enough, especially immediately, to have a very good chance of making the 1st down or making the score - or at least leaving us in 3rd and short instead of 3rd and 10.   If it's Diggs, he'll take it because "when you have a guy like Diggs on your team you have to find ways to get him the ball", but Diggs usually isn't that open.

 

I think it's a fair point you make that we don't have a true #2 or "big catch" slot guy any more, although, last year Beasley seemed to be pissed off about being targeted when he was going to be "lit up" by 2 or more guys.  IN THEORY, Knox should be able to be "open when he's covered" across the middle, somewhat like Kelce is.  I also have a hunch that the guys not named Diggs who are playing the slot are open a lot more than they're targeted.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Beck Water

[Stank_Nasty]

2 hours ago, Ray Stonada said:

The Vikings are nowhere near as good as their record. They barely beat Miami who were starting Skylar Thompson!

 

Even with Jefferson, Thielen and Cook, the Vikings have scored less points than ANY team in the AFC East.

 

I think the Bills are gonna come together and expose them, either with Josh or for Josh.

need a last second FG to beat andy dalton, beat heineke by a FG after being in a 17-7 hole to start the 4th, Barely beat a bears team that was playing like complete dog crap at the start of the season... they're literally stumble f***ing their way to all these wins against subpar teams and backup qb's.

 

they've played ONE team with a winning record that actually had their starting qb playing(Philly), and they got their teeth kicked in. I'm not saying we definitely win with Keenum or anything, but this is a very winnable game. Even with our backup qb.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Stank_Nasty

[Warriorspikes51]

isn't the Vikings D ranked 26th?   

111 yards per game against Rush

256 yards per game against Pass 

368 yards per game total.

Bills Defense sits 4th at 299 against per game 

Edited November 10, 2022 by Warriorspikes51

[RiotAct]

5 hours ago, Cygnus99 said:

I would not be surprised if the Bills win this one but also if the Vikings win it . It could go either way . It will be a very heart breaking loss for one of these teams , Hopefully we get a W. There is also a chance of a tie 

lol the Vikings are like 19 games up in their division. There would be nothing “heartbreaking” about it at all for them if they lost.