Tre White expected back to full practice after the Bye (update - won’t play vs GB)

[Chandler#81]

1 minute ago, ScottLaw said:

Just my educated guess based off of the research and experience in the field. 11 months is an extended period of time post ACL repair to return to sport…  whether due to overdoing it at some point I’m not sure, but I’d wager he had some sort of set back along the way…. Not a huge deal at all.

 

I agree. There’s caution, Sean Caution then there’s ‘somethings up’…

[FilthyBeast]

I've thought all along that we probably won't see White until sometime in November which is basically a full year removed from his injury.

 

Also looking at the schedule in the near term, does anybody really think we need him against a struggling Packers offense in which Rogers has no one to throw to or Zack Wilson and that Jets putrid offense who just lost their best offensive player for the year?

 

That's what I'm sure that McDermott is also factoring in as well here.

[DCofNC]

Bummer that he’s not coming back to torture Rodgers, but it may be nothing more than letting him get in better shape before ending him out to a game.  He hasn’t been “needed” all year, so whenever he gets back he’s a huge bonus.

[appoo]

5 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Just my educated guess based off of the research and experience in the field. 11 months is an extended period of time post ACL repair to return to sport…  whether due to overdoing it at some point I’m not sure, but I’d wager he had some sort of set back along the way…. Not a huge deal at all.

 

He's in a normal (as opposed to non contact) jersey today. 

 

They have a loaded roster, and got through the worst of their schedule. In terms of contending teams they have left, they'll play the Vikes on Nov 13th, and then Miami in late December, and Cinncy on Jan 2.

 

They have the opportunity to ease him back in and making use of it

Edited October 26, 2022 by appoo

[H2o]

2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Just my educated guess based off of the research and experience in the field. 11 months is an extended period of time post ACL repair to return to sport…  whether due to overdoing it at some point I’m not sure, but I’d wager he had some sort of set back along the way…. Not a huge deal at all.

 

Never said it was a big deal… it actually takes a good two years until the new graft actually fixates.

We finally have a pic of ScottLaw

[Nextmanup]

Oh God, this is getting annoying.  I'm getting to the point where I will expect him back only when I see him playing on a field. 

This is gonna get strung out week-to-week for a while.

 

[Beck Water]

10 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Removing the red jersey and allowing him to participate fully in practice does not suggest a “set back” in his recovery. Wanting to see a full week of full participation in practice while maximizing roster flexibility vis a vis his current PUP status makes a lot of sense. 

 

Right, I'm sure they had their reasons for choosing this activation window, but most players seem to think a guy needs a couple weeks of practice to get himself close to "game shape".  Tre had 3 practices last week, then the bye.  Maybe let the guy have 9 practices (3 weeks) before they throw him into a game.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, ScottLaw said:

Just my educated guess based off of the research and experience in the field. 11 months is an extended period of time post ACL repair to return to sport…  whether due to overdoing it at some point I’m not sure, but I’d wager he had some sort of set back along the way…. Not a huge deal at all.

 

It’s not educated at all because every situation is different. 9 months is the typical minimum before return, but it’s not for everyone. 12 months is the typical max.

 

I thought he’d be able to return to practice by the 9 month minimum. That was obviously the best case.
 

Everything the team was doing indicated White was on schedule. There is no reason to believe White suffered any setbacks. For one there has been no word of a setback. He’s been in Buffalo almost a full year rehabbing. We’ve seen him around the facility. There would’ve been news of a setback.

 

They didn’t sign any CBs until they lost 2 more CBs to injury. 

[Logic]

Obviously every athlete and every ACL tear is different and unique, but here's another pro football player (Jameson Williams) -- and a younger one at that -- who is at the 10 month post ACL-tear mark, and it sounds like he'll be heading into at least month 11 before he's MAYBE healthy enough to return.

I don't believe there was any other structural damage in Williams' case, either. A "clean" ACL tear, so to speak. I'm also not aware of any reported setbacks in recovery.

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2022/10/26/dan-campbell-we-feel-like-were-going-to-have-jameson-williams-this-season/


“No, there’s still hope [he’ll play during the 2022 season]. He’s put together a pretty good month — a real good month,” head coach Dan Campbell said in his Wednesday press conference. “We feel like we’re going to have him before this season’s out.
 

“It’s hard to say when that’s going to be. I would say, at least probably another month. But I do feel like we’re going to get him before this is said and done.”

Williams suffered the ACL tear during the CFP national championship game in January."

 

[C.Biscuit97]

Zero need to rush him back. Want him as close to 100.

[Johnnycage46]

5 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Oh God, this is getting annoying.  I'm getting to the point where I will expect him back only when I see him playing on a field. 

This is gonna get strung out week-to-week for a while.

 

 

Well, until he takes the field, it'll just have to be...Nextmanup

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

?

Recovery range is usually given as 9-12 months.  10 1/2 months is well within that. 

 

Here's a 2021 study of WR and RB rtp (I would think physical demands on DB would be similar).  In this study, the mean RTP was 13.6 months.

 

 

 

 

 

Even soccer players, who are noted for having a more aggressive RTP timeline than some other sports (and who are not supposed to be tackling each other on every play), the mean is 216 ± 109 days, which means an average of 7.2 months, but 10.8 months is within 1 standard deviation ie not unusually long.

 

Would you mind citing the sources for your information that it shouldn't take 10.5 months in this day an age?

 

 

 

Not all ACL injuries are created equal. I don't have any sources to cite but I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of those injuries where, as we were told initially on Tre, no other structural damage or damage to other ligaments was found. 

 

From the experts I speak to (and admittedly they are more used to treating soccer players) the recovery range for the "typical" ACL tear (and knowing that no tear is ever quite that simple to badge) is 6-9 months. 

 

And there are NFL players who tore theirs after Tre who are back on the field, right? I don't buy that it has all been smooth sailing and he still isn't ready to play. He is making progress, that is good. But the Bills waited until the very last minute to PUP him which means at some point they thought there was a chance he'd play before week 4. Beane told us they were not ruling that out and were "running the clock" and now he still isn't ready come week 8? Yea. I believe there has been a setback somewhere that they are not telling us about which they are well within their rights to do. We are well within ours to speculate.

[Bills!Win!]

Don’t they have 21 days to activate him once he practices? That pretty much means he is playing for the Jets game right?

[NewEra]

6 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Oh God, this is getting annoying.  I'm getting to the point where I will expect him back only when I see him playing on a field. 

This is gonna get strung out week-to-week for a while.

 

🙄 typical reaction

[strive_for_five_guy]

Is it possible that the Bills decided to not activate White this week because they didn’t need to, and otherwise would need to push someone else off the 53–man roster that they didn’t want to yet?  For instance, if someone gets injured this Sunday, it might make it that much clearer whose spot Tre will take on the 53, heading into the Jets game.  Thoughts on there being some calculated strategy behind their approach?

[LeGOATski]

18 minutes ago, Brianmoorman4jesus said:

Weren’t they acting like it was 50/50 wether or not he could play week 1? This is strange to me 

I never bought into that at all. I thought fans and media took something Beane said the wrong way and ran with it.

[Logic]

As long as we're fielding theories...

I believe the excellent Bills medical team knows that ACL injury recurrence is much greater if an athlete rushes back to the field. As such, and knowing that White is an important, long term foundational piece of the team, they're doing everything they can to make sure he's healthy in the long term.

https://www.uchealth.org/today/acl-tears-how-long-does-it-take-to-recover-and-return-to-sports/#:~:text=“That process can take nine,least eight to nine months.

 

“It takes a while for the graft to become part of the body and go through a process of we call ligamentization, which is becoming a new ligament,” McCarty said. “That process can take nine or 10 months.”

Although some exceptional athletes can return to sports in six months, a more realistic scenario after an ACL tear is a recovery time of at least eight to nine months.

“Even then, after you’ve done great therapy and have come back to sports, it can sometimes take another year before you feel normal again,” McCarty said.

His patients often tell him that it isn’t until the second season after ACL surgery that they feel like they have fully returned to their previous level of play.

Since everyone heals differently, there’s no set time for athletes to return to sports. Tests can determine whether or not a reconstructed knee is as functional as the other knee and up to the rigors of a particular sport. Doctors and physical therapists usually have the final say on whether or not an athlete is ready to compete safely.

Research shows that up to one-third of athletes sustain another ACL tear in the same or opposite knee within two years, suggesting that an ACL tear recovery time of 10 months or longer may be associated with a lower risk of re-injury.

 

 

[BillyBilliams]

2 minutes ago, Logic said:

As long as we're fielding theories...

I believe the excellent Bills medical team knows that ACL injury recurrence is much greater if an athlete rushes back to the field. As such, and knowing that White is an important, long term foundational piece of the team, they're doing everything they can to make sure he's healthy in the long term.

https://www.uchealth.org/today/acl-tears-how-long-does-it-take-to-recover-and-return-to-sports/#:~:text=“That process can take nine,least eight to nine months.

 

“It takes a while for the graft to become part of the body and go through a process of we call ligamentization, which is becoming a new ligament,” McCarty said. “That process can take nine or 10 months.”

Although some exceptional athletes can return to sports in six months, a more realistic scenario after an ACL tear is a recovery time of at least eight to nine months.

“Even then, after you’ve done great therapy and have come back to sports, it can sometimes take another year before you feel normal again,” McCarty said.

His patients often tell him that it isn’t until the second season after ACL surgery that they feel like they have fully returned to their previous level of play.

Since everyone heals differently, there’s no set time for athletes to return to sports. Tests can determine whether or not a reconstructed knee is as functional as the other knee and up to the rigors of a particular sport. Doctors and physical therapists usually have the final say on whether or not an athlete is ready to compete safely.

Research shows that up to one-third of athletes sustain another ACL tear in the same or opposite knee within two years, suggesting that an ACL tear recovery time of 10 months or longer may be associated with a lower risk of re-injury.

 

 

 

Sounds reasonable.  However, he was injured Thanksgiving last year.  It's been 11 months.  He's been longer than what this suggests.

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

Source for this info on normal and behind schedule?

 

Actually I have just found the tweet from Bradley Gelber from BillsWire. Turns out I hd misread it. He DID tear his miniscus. I had misread that in December last year and been under a misaprhension since. 

 

Ignore me. I stand corrected. I would have been saying from the start 9 months was too ambitious had I known there was additional damage. 

[Beck Water]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Not all ACL injuries are created equal. I don't have any sources to cite but I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of those injuries where, as we were told initially on Tre, no other structural damage or damage to other ligaments was found. 

 

From the experts I speak to (and admittedly they are more used to treating soccer players) the recovery range for the "typical" ACL tear (and knowing that no tear is ever quite that simple to badge) is 6-9 months. 

 

And there are NFL players who tore theirs after Tre who are back on the field, right? I don't buy that it has all been smooth sailing and he still isn't ready to play. He is making progress, that is good. But the Bills waited until the very last minute to PUP him which means at some point they thought there was a chance he'd play before week 4. Beane told us they were not ruling that out and were "running the clock" and now he still isn't ready come week 8? Yea. I believe there has been a setback somewhere that they are not telling us about which they are well within their rights to do. We are well within ours to speculate.

 

You're well within your rights to speculate about setbacks and additional damage, sure.  Absent sources to the contrary, perhaps it would be advisable to step away from the definitive pronouncements "it should not take 10 and a half months for an NFL player off an ACL tear with no other damage to get back on the field in this day and age", when there's a recent published study saying 13.6 months was the average time for NFL WR and RBs?

 

Found by a couple minutes of googling, btw

Edited October 26, 2022 by Beck Water

[Gugny]

 

My totally uneducated guess:  There was a setback.  We will find out by next Wednesday whether it was a major setback or a minor setback.

[ColoradoBills]

4 minutes ago, Bills!Win! said:

Don’t they have 21 days to activate him once he practices? That pretty much means he is playing for the Jets game right?

 

Yes, he will be on the main 53 roster for the Jets game.  What none of us know is how they plan on ramping him up.

 

Will they let him have a start in a game and play a series or two?

Will they let him sit in a depth role and bring him in late in a game that could be already won?

I'm hoping they got some sort of plan that brings him in and out during a game to confuse these "not so great" QBs they will be facing

in the next few weeks.

 

We will have to wait and see what the plan is.

[That's No Moon]

Where do I go to get my apology from all the people who lambasted me for suggesting that Tre might not be ready for the start of the season, then the KC game, now the GB game?

[Logic]

2 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

 

Sounds reasonable.  However, he was injured Thanksgiving last year.  It's been 11 months.  He's been longer than what this suggests.

Last sentence of the article:

"...suggesting that an ACL tear recovery time of 10 months or longer may be associated with a lower risk of re-injury."

And as I also posted above, Jameson Williams, who also had a clean ACL tear and is younger than White, is also likely to roll into month 11 without having returned to the field.

I don't think it's that unusual.

I also saw that White is practicing in a non-contact jersey, which suggests that return is imminent. 

[Beck Water]

2 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Where do I go to get my apology from all the people who lambasted me for suggesting that Tre might not be ready for the start of the season, then the KC game, now the GB game?

 

I don't think I'm one of them, but I'll be glad to give you an apology if it'll make you feel better:

 

"I apologize to That's No Moon"

 

There ya go!

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

8 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

 

Sounds reasonable.  However, he was injured Thanksgiving last year.  It's been 11 months.  He's been longer than what this suggests.

His surgery was mid December and he was cleared to practice after 10 months 

[GunnerBill]

8 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

You're well within your rights to speculate about setbacks and additional damage, sure.  Absent sources to the contrary, perhaps it would be advisable to step away from the definitive pronouncements "it should not take 10 and a half months for an NFL player off an ACL tear with no other damage to get back on the field in this day and age", when there's a recent published study saying 13.6 months was the average time for NFL WR and RBs?

 

Found by a couple minutes of googling, btw

 

I stand by that if there was no other damage. I have already revoked my statement about that being the case with Tre. That was an honest mistake.

[TheWeatherMan]

13 minutes ago, Logic said:

As long as we're fielding theories...

I believe the excellent Bills medical team knows that ACL injury recurrence is much greater if an athlete rushes back to the field. As such, and knowing that White is an important, long term foundational piece of the team, they're doing everything they can to make sure he's healthy in the long term.

https://www.uchealth.org/today/acl-tears-how-long-does-it-take-to-recover-and-return-to-sports/#:~:text=“That process can take nine,least eight to nine months.

 

“It takes a while for the graft to become part of the body and go through a process of we call ligamentization, which is becoming a new ligament,” McCarty said. “That process can take nine or 10 months.”

Although some exceptional athletes can return to sports in six months, a more realistic scenario after an ACL tear is a recovery time of at least eight to nine months.

“Even then, after you’ve done great therapy and have come back to sports, it can sometimes take another year before you feel normal again,” McCarty said.

His patients often tell him that it isn’t until the second season after ACL surgery that they feel like they have fully returned to their previous level of play.

Since everyone heals differently, there’s no set time for athletes to return to sports. Tests can determine whether or not a reconstructed knee is as functional as the other knee and up to the rigors of a particular sport. Doctors and physical therapists usually have the final say on whether or not an athlete is ready to compete safely.

Research shows that up to one-third of athletes sustain another ACL tear in the same or opposite knee within two years, suggesting that an ACL tear recovery time of 10 months or longer may be associated with a lower risk of re-injury.

 

 

This is…logic!

[TheFunPolice]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Expecting him to step in and perform like a top 5 CB is wildly optimistic imo

 

maybe not right away, but he IS a top 5 CB, or at least top 10 when healthy and rolling

 

But you're right, he is going to need some time to ramp up and get rid of the rust 

[K-9]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not all ACL injuries are created equal. I don't have any sources to cite but I'd be interested in seeing a breakdown of those injuries where, as we were told initially on Tre, no other structural damage or damage to other ligaments was found. 

 

From the experts I speak to (and admittedly they are more used to treating soccer players) the recovery range for the "typical" ACL tear (and knowing that no tear is ever quite that simple to badge) is 6-9 months. 

 

And there are NFL players who tore theirs after Tre who are back on the field, right? I don't buy that it has all been smooth sailing and he still isn't ready to play. He is making progress, that is good. But the Bills waited until the very last minute to PUP him which means at some point they thought there was a chance he'd play before week 4. Beane told us they were not ruling that out and were "running the clock" and now he still isn't ready come week 8? Yea. I believe there has been a setback somewhere that they are not telling us about which they are well within their rights to do. We are well within ours to speculate.

There is no such thing as “smooth sailing” when it comes to this kind of rehab. There are always peaks, valleys, and plateaus. Always. All the Bills have ever said is he is “on schedule” and if the Bills, in their response to the incessant questions about Tre and his recovery, somehow created an unrealistic expectation among the fan base, then that’s on us as fans who have defined what “on schedule” should mean based on arbitrary sources of information from those not privy to the only information that matters. 

 

[John from Riverside]

I wonder if it’s just as simple as the current guys are playing well so they feel they can just is Trey along 

 

Remember the chance of coming down with another injury due to such a long way off like a hamstring is very real

[billsfanmiamioh]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

I wonder if it’s just as simple as the current guys are playing well so they feel they can just is Trey along 

 

Remember the chance of coming down with another injury due to such a long way off like a hamstring is very real

Plus, it’s not like the goal of this team is to claw its way into the playoffs. There is zero incentive whatsoever to rush him back in any way, shape or form. Even if it’s just minimizing wear and tear for later in the year since he hasn’t been able to perform his “usual” routine. Unless we hear otherwise, I’m actually happy they are being very cautious and calculated with his return. Good for everyone involved. 

[BillyBilliams]

11 minutes ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

 

His surgery was mid December and he was cleared to practice after 10 months 

 

Mid December is a long time to wait for an ACL surgery.  I actually didn't know that.  I could have sworn it was within the first few days of Dec.  That means he took 10.5 months.  Which then is on track like you mentioned.

[Beck Water]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I stand by that if there was no other damage. I have already revoked my statement about that being the case with Tre. That was an honest mistake.

 

For a lay person with (from what you've said in various posts) no specialized medical or scientific training to be all "I stand by what I said" about RTP times, in the face of a published, peer reviewed, descriptive epidemiological study of position groups that would seem to present similar demands on the knee for pivoting on a planted foot in order to cut and change direction -

 

-  I don't get it, that's all.

 

 

[Beck Water]

12 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

Mid December is a long time to wait for an ACL surgery.  I actually didn't know that.  I could have sworn it was within the first few days of Dec.  That means he took 10.5 months.  Which then is on track like you mentioned.

 

Tre' White injured his ACL on 11/25 and had surgery 12/16.   That's 3 weeks later.

 

It seems to be SOP these days to wait a period of time post-injury to perform surgery.  The idea seems to be to allow inflammation and swelling to subside, and even to do pre-operative PT.  2 weeks seems to be a common period of time, but the time is driven by how long it takes for the individual patient to reach the individual surgeon's desired end-point for performing surgery. 

 

So I don't think 3 weeks is unusual.

Edited October 26, 2022 by Beck Water

[Arkady Renko]

16 minutes ago, BillyBilliams said:

 

Mid December is a long time to wait for an ACL surgery.  I actually didn't know that.  I could have sworn it was within the first few days of Dec.  That means he took 10.5 months.  Which then is on track like you mentioned.

You usually wait at least three weeks to have the reconstruction to let the area be less inflamed. 

[GunnerBill]

16 minutes ago, Beck Water said:

 

For a lay person with (from what you've said in various posts) no specialized medical or scientific training to be all "I stand by what I said" about RTP times, in the face of a published, peer reviewed, descriptive epidemiological study of position groups that would seem to present similar demands on the knee for pivoting on a planted foot in order to cut and change direction -

 

-  I don't get it, that's all.

 

 

 

I have no scientific knoweldge or training. But I am basing it on conversations with people who have. I am not just spitballing. I trust what they tell me. One is the Head of Medicine at a professional soccer club the other is an orthopedic surgeon at one of the top hospitals in London. Had the same conversation with them basically totally unrelated to each other but about modern ACL recovery rates for pro athletes. Now maybe the NFL is so sufficiently different that it renders those conversations irrelevant. But I see examples in the NFL in the last few years - Amari Rodgers and Chris Godwin to name two - that make me sceptical of that.

[GolfandBills]

Is putting him on the season ending IR in play?  I’m starting to think it might be 

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, GolfandBills said:

Is putting him on the season ending IR in play?  I’m starting to think it might be 

He looks good to me, why put him on IR

[Royale with Cheese]

2 minutes ago, GolfandBills said:

Is putting him on the season ending IR in play?  I’m starting to think it might be 

 

Why?