Jim Kelly on the all time passing list

[thenorthremembers]

5 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Hot take: Kelly was a very good QB, not an elite QB. He belongs in the HOF because of his winning. He is in the Fouts/Moon/Aikman/Griese/Warner tier of HOF QBs not the Brady/Montana/Peyton/Elway/Marino tier.

 

 

Agree for the most part but Marino also doesn't belong in the Montana/Peyton/Elway tier.   Brady belongs in his own tier.

 

Marino was 8-10 in the playoffs over 17 seasons.    Great regular season QB, but he doesn't belong in a tier with multiple super bowl winners.

[Neo]

3 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

Marino was leaps and bounds better than Kelly as a passer and a QB.

Half correct.

37 minutes ago, LeviF said:

 

Marino might be the best passer to ever play the game. At this point it's between him and Rodgers. Josh Allen could blow them both away at his current trajectory.

Marino threw beautifully, no doubt.  

[Neo]

56 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

 

Not sure what that means exactly, but it sounds clever.  Marino was the more highly ranked of the 2 by anyone who is not a Bills fan.

 

No, he's a lot better in some aspects.

He's the best pure passer I've ever seen and no one has ever replicated his ridiculously fast release.

 

 

I’ll agree with pure passer.  The other aspects are my arguments.

[machine gun kelly]

6 hours ago, eball said:

 

I think it’s splitting hairs to a degree.  I do believe having Thurman for most of his career was a limiting factor on Kelly’s stats.  He was an elite thrower of the football and there was no QB tougher.  Great leader as well (at least on the field).

 

Well, Eman it’s not just that, but Kelly did play in a different era than the later guys mentioned by KJ.  Montana, and Elway yes.  The later guys had different rules that if a QB gets a hangnail the defender gets a penalty.  No wonder the QB’s are

Playing  much later into their careers.  It’s like the AB’s in the 60’s and early 70’s with only 14 games, and defenders could practically decapitate a QB.  Forget the Deacon Jones ear slaps and WR’s practically getting sucker punched in the 70’s.

 

It reminds me of a family dinner scene in Blue Bloods where Frank Reagan ?Selleck) and his dad, and he raised his voice to Henry saying “that’s like saying Mike Tyson can beat Ali in his prime, it’s a non starter”.  It really is the same.

 

Yes, if Kelly would’ve not gone to the Gamblers and went to the Bills in 83, he would’ve passed his stats, but remember the coach was Kay Stephenson, probably the worst HC in Bills history.

 

I’m proud of Jimbo and respect him for what he brought to this city for all of these years when he played and how he has been a role model to our youth forever.  Hence my avatar.  Someday Josh will get there as he’s on his way.  In 10 years with these rules and a little luck  with no serious injuries, we

will be talking us old guys as I’m only middle aged now, of getting to watch live the two greatest QB’s in Bills history.

 

I can’t wait as I love Josh as our QB.

[RevWarRifleman]

Marlton, I'm not so sure. The lack of talent as well as coaching the Bills had while Jim was in the USFL doesn't strike me that Jim would have 

tore up the league with lots of yards & TD's as a Bill. For us old guys that remember those years (back to back 2-14 seasons) our offense

lacked pretty much everything.

 

That's just my 2 cents.

[BillsBlue]

I think many of you are forgetting that this team led by Kelly whent to 4 SUPER BOWLS IN A ROW!!!!!! 

Never happened again never will happen again for ANY QB!!!!! Chew on that, put that in yer pipe and smoke it 😃

[JerseyBills]

8 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Hot take: Kelly was a very good QB, not an elite QB. He belongs in the HOF because of his winning. He is in the Fouts/Moon/Aikman/Griese/Warner tier of HOF QBs not the Brady/Montana/Peyton/Elway/Marino tier.

 

 

That's a very debatable discussion 

[BillsFanSD]

7 hours ago, Greg S said:

It will knock Kelly from #1 to #2 as the greatest Bills QB 

I honestly think Allen is already a better QB than Kelly ever was.  And I loved Kelly and still do.  

 

And paradoxically, I don't even think it matters whether we're talking about 1990s era football or today's game.  Allen is a better QB in the 2020s NFL than Kelly would have been for sure.  But I also think Allen would have been better than Kelly in 1990s too.  It's not as if Allen isn't a big guy who can take a hit or two. 

Edited June 3, 2022 by BillsFanSD

[TN Bills Fan]

Some of Kelly's best years were spent in the WFL.  He would have a bunch more if not...

[babulator]

I just don't think you can compare any of these stats to the modern day NFL.

 

I think Brady and Manning were the beginning of this new pass happy NFL, where throwing is the norm and DB's aren't really allowed to get physical anymore. It's turning into a game of highlight reels.  I prefer the old gridiron tbh, where making a big catch or significant play meant something. For elite teams the NFL has become increasingly more and more like basketball, where it's a game of possessions, end of half, end of game. 

 

/rant off.

[Greg S]

7 minutes ago, BillsFanSD said:

I honestly think Allen is already a better QB than Kelly ever was.  And I loved Kelly and still do.  

 

And paradoxically, I don't even think it matters whether we're talking about 1990s era football or today's game.  Allen is a better QB in the 2020s NFL than Kelly would have been for sure.  But I also think Allen would have been better than Kelly in 1990s too.  It's not as if Allen isn't a big guy who can take a hit or two. 

 

I would still have Kelly #1 and Kemp #2. Both of them already played a full career. Kelly led the team to 4 Super Bowls plus all the playoff wins, regular season wins, AFCE titles. Allen is starting to do that as well but he is just getting started. I would still rank Kemp over Allen because of the back to back AFL championships. At this point Allen has passed Ferguson to move into #3 on the Bills QB list. I agree with you that Allen will be #1 when its all said and done. He still has a lot to accomplish before he becomes the greatest Bills QB. 

 

Right now 

1. Kelly 

2. Kemp

3. Allen

4. Ferguson

 

When Josh is done playing

1. Allen

2. Kelly

3. Kemp

4. Ferguson

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

9 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Hot take: Kelly was a very good QB, not an elite QB. He belongs in the HOF because of his winning. He is in the Fouts/Moon/Aikman/Griese/Warner tier of HOF QBs not the Brady/Montana/Peyton/Elway/Marino tier.

Marino’s best weapon was a fast release time. 

His proficiency passing and no run game doomed him from repeated SB’s and getting past Kelly. 

Elway was a JAG until Terrell Davis got there that they won it or was it Shannon Sharpe? 

 

 

Brady cheated. 
 

[ColoradoBills]

5 hours ago, Greg S said:

 

Coming off back to back 2-14 seasons Kelly was viewed as a savior for the franchise during those horrible times. Just look at the reaction of the fans during Kelly's first game.

 

 

 

 

 

Thanks Greg!

I had moved to Colorado a couple of years earlier and never seen Jimbo's first game with the Bills.

Heard from friends who were at the game as to how electrified they were seeing Kelly play.  I now see why.

 

You get the feeling if the Bills D would of stopped the Jets on that 3rd down with about 1:50 left in the game Kelly would of had

a great chance to win the game.

 

I might have to check out some other early Kelly games on YouTube.

 

[machine gun kelly]

1 hour ago, TN Bills Fan said:

Some of Kelly's best years were spent in the WFL.  He would have a bunch more if not...

I think you mean the USFL.  Trump owned a team in that league.

 

As far as Kelly vs. Allen well let’s wait til Allen gets to year 11 and then an easy comparison, and you’ll probably be right.  As Parcels used to say, let’s not crown him yet or get the bust out.  It’s a good metaphor to take the time as I’m sure Allen will probably go down at some point as the greatest Bills QB ever, but not yet.

[billybrew1]

11 hours ago, Marlton Bills said:

Jim Kelly currently sits at number 29 on the all time passing list. Had Fitzy played this year (or even most of last year) he likely would have passed him. Dalton is right behind him as well.  When I look at the list of top passers I marvel at Jim because he did it in 11 years. Has he played in 1983, 1984 and 1985, I always assume about another 10,000 yards. Do you all think that would be a reasonable amount of yards to add?  It would put him in the top 20. 

Oh, absolutely. I used to watch Kelly in the USFL and was similar to how Allen looks now. Just total domination by a bigger, stronger, better player than anyone he played against. He was super-human back then. He could run, etc….

LOL, it is a bit depressing thinking how Kelly lost his knees so young and that happening to Josh too….

But Jim Kelly was mobile in usfl. He wasn’t a runner, but he wasn’t the statue we all know and love from his Buffalo days either….

He was very dominant, like Allen is now. Just super human. (Knock on wood. No jinxes!)

[RocCityRoller]

3 hours ago, BillsBlue said:

I think many of you are forgetting that this team led by Kelly whent to 4 SUPER BOWLS IN A ROW!!!!!! 

Never happened again never will happen again for ANY QB!!!!! Chew on that, put that in yer pipe and smoke it 😃

 

It was Kelly and Thomas.

The Bills were top 10, if not 5 in rushing all of those years, and Kelly could barely run. The passing stats were top 15 to top 10.

 

To me Kelly was very good, not great.

 

As Bills fans Kelly was great because he did things no QB did for the Bills before him, and honestly still hasn't done.

 

Some may argue Kemp in another era. And true he won two AFL championships and went to 3 or 4 AFL Championship games in a row. But those Bills teams played great defense and also had a 1k back in Cookie Gilchrist. Defense and RB were not strong suites of the AFL.

 

Right now for overall accomplishment, taking era into account:

Jim Kelly

Jack Kemp

Josh Allen

 

JA needs a few SB appearances to equal that out.

[Kirby Jackson]

3 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

That's a very debatable discussion 

It’s June on TBD. That’s why it’s out there. 

[Chandler#81]

12 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

I’m not so much worried about the passing yards (although that’s a fair point). At the same time, a lot of the yards that he got were after the catch. Andre Reed is one of the best after the catch that I’ve ever seen. He wouldn’t have had that in SD or Miami. 
 

I’m not trashing him in any sense. I just think that we look at him, and history looks at him, as a more dominant player than he was. He was excellent. He belongs in the HOF. Kelly just isn’t in that special room in the HOF. FWIW, I think Allen has a chance to be in that room.

Jesus Christ, Kirby! You’re making up your own HOF rooms? WTF???😳🤣😒

[pennstate10]

14 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Hot take: Kelly was a very good QB, not an elite QB. He belongs in the HOF because of his winning. He is in the Fouts/Moon/Aikman/Griese/Warner tier of HOF QBs not the Brady/Montana/Peyton/Elway/Marino tier.

 

 

Agree mostly.

But not with Marino.  There is no way Marino is in the same tier as Brady/Montana/Peyton/Elway/Brees.  All those guys were winners. They all had numerous conference championships and at least one superbowl. Marino, not so much.  Marino was a bit like James Lauranitis, the LB commonly known as "pile jumper".  Great stats, but in the end, not a true difference maker.

[Sierra Foothills]

13 hours ago, Greg S said:

Assuming he stays healthy Allen will have every single Bills passing record and it won't be close. It will knock Kelly from #1 to #2 as the greatest Bills QB with Kemp and Ferguson dropping to #3 and #4 respectively on the Bills QB list.

 

Allen will knock Kelly to #2 statistically. I think people need to tap the brakes a bit until Allen can deliver at least one Super Bowl appearance.

 

12 hours ago, Albany,n.y. said:

Kelly was 37 when he retired.  No way he'd be playing at 43 or 44.  

 

It was posited that Kelly took a lot more punishment than QBs of today.

 

I think it's reasonable to say that if Kelly had the same protections as today's QBs he almost certainly would have added a couple seasons on the back end of his career.

 

11 hours ago, Awwufelloff said:

Allens career will blow past Kellys in every category. 

 

Again statistically that is more than likely. As far as greatness, let's see if Allen gets us to ONE Super Bowl. Then we can talk about it.

 

9 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

 

Not sure what that means exactly, but it sounds clever.  Marino was the more highly ranked of the 2 by anyone who is not a Bills fan.

 

No, he's a lot better in some aspects.

He's the best pure passer I've ever seen and no one has ever replicated his ridiculously fast release.

 

Kelly was 16-8 heads up against Marino, 3-0 in the playoffs. BTW Kelly was 4-2 against Elway.

 

No one would argue which player was more talented but those who put Marino ahead of Kelly as a QB have very little basis for that position IMO.

 

Probably I'm being harsh but I feel like half the people posting in this topic are too young to have watched Kelly play and the other half are too old to have a clear memory of his career. I love Josh Allen as much as anyone but the short memory and lack of respect for Jim Kelly's career makes me a bit sad. There's a ton of recency bias at work here.

[ganesh]

13 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Look where he was when we retired, not now. When he played you could still kill QBs and take the heads of WRs. Different era

It took us 17 years and 17 different QBs and a guy wearing #17 to even have some level of playoff-level game.  That in itself should tell who Jim Kelly was.  He was a leader among men. Unfortunately his skill sets are vastly underrated. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

23 hours ago, Rico said:

Anti-clutch in the playoffs, he folded like a cheap suit.

And Kelly didn't? He was awful in all four SB games and not much better in the playoff games. 21 TD against 28 INT. In only two seasons 88 and 89 did he have more TD than interceptions. 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

I'd put Kelly ahead of guys like Griese and Warner. I dont think either of those guys belong in HOF. Kelly most clearly does. He's just not in the top 10 QB list any longer. More like 15-20. I feel like Kelly was a better QB than Bradshaw but similar in many ways. More distributor than passer. Marino was a far better QB with a much worse team. Aikman is another controversial guy. He had the perfect RB, TE, OL, and WR group. All he had to do was not turn the ball over, and he didn't.  Is he a better QB than Kelly? Ugh he won more but not sure he was a better QB. I never thought Dallas won because of Aikman but I also never thought they lost because of him. 

I dont see Kelly thriving today like Brees and Brady. But I could see with the right coach and system he could have been like Favre.  Similar playing styles only Favre had the stronger arm.

Edited June 4, 2022 by Ethan in Portland

[Rico]

39 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

And Kelly didn't? He was awful in all four SB games and not much better in the playoff games. 21 TD against 28 INT. In only two seasons 88 and 89 did he have more TD than interceptions. 

 

 

[FireChans]

On 6/3/2022 at 12:15 PM, Rico said:

Anti-clutch in the playoffs, he folded like a cheap suit.

Unlike Jimbo….

[julian]

On 6/3/2022 at 6:42 AM, Neo said:

Add another 10,000 had he not played a decade with two touchdown leads and Thurman Thomas.   Kelly was a quarterback.   Marino was a passer.

Had Marino had HOFer Thurman Thomas things would have looked a lil different. I loved Kelly when he played here and is a HOFer without question.

 

Dan Marino is a top QB all time IMHO and was just on another level than Kelly who was fortunate enough to play on an all time great roster

[Apocalypse Nuts]

On 6/3/2022 at 5:59 AM, Marlton Bills said:

Jim Kelly currently sits at number 29 on the all time passing list. Had Fitzy played this year (or even most of last year) he likely would have passed him. Dalton is right behind him as well.  When I look at the list of top passers I marvel at Jim because he did it in 11 years. Has he played in 1983, 1984 and 1985, I always assume about another 10,000 yards. Do you all think that would be a reasonable amount of yards to add?  It would put him in the top 20. 

It's all a hoax.  Just because it seems like it's reality, and all normal indications available to human beings with any level of common sense in this country lead us to this same conclusion, does not mean that it's not a hoax.  It's a hoax simply because I refuse to believe it.  And I refuse to allow you to believe it.  It's just that simple.  I say it ain't true, so it ain't true.

 

Sound familiar?

 

 

JK of course

[Kirby Jackson]

20 hours ago, ganesh said:

It took us 17 years and 17 different QBs and a guy wearing #17 to even have some level of playoff-level game.  That in itself should tell who Jim Kelly was.  He was a leader among men. Unfortunately his skill sets are vastly underrated. 

The Bills inability to find competent QB play isn’t connected to Kelly. In 2004, the Bills tried DESPERATELY to trade up for a QB. They thought that they had a deal with Jacksonville but the Jags backed out. The Bills would have drafted Ben Roethlisberger. 

[Mr. WEO]

On 6/3/2022 at 8:15 AM, uticaclub said:

Look where he was when we retired, not now. When he played you could still kill QBs and take the heads of WRs. Different era

 

Where he was when he retired was stringing together 7-2, 10-5 and 8-5 starts.  Jimbo was limping to the finish line of a solid career.

 

Plus, see below..

 

On 6/3/2022 at 8:23 AM, Doc said:

 

This.  Had Kelly been protected like QBs have since the early 2000s, he'd have played another 6-7 years.  And with the more wide open offenses, he would have racked up the stats.

 

His contemporaries were Elway (16 seasons), Moon (17 seasons --in NFL), Marino (16 seasons), Young (15 seasons), Esiason (14 seasons), etc.

 

in 1994, Marino was still putting up almost 4500 yards. Moon at 4300 and Young about 4000. Same for Elway. 

 

All took the same beatings. 

 

 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 6/3/2022 at 3:52 PM, babulator said:

I just don't think you can compare any of these stats to the modern day NFL.

 

I think Brady and Manning were the beginning of this new pass happy NFL, where throwing is the norm and DB's aren't really allowed to get physical anymore. It's turning into a game of highlight reels.  I prefer the old gridiron tbh, where making a big catch or significant play meant something. For elite teams the NFL has become increasingly more and more like basketball, where it's a game of possessions, end of half, end of game. 

 

/rant off.

 

It still is. Didn't we beat Baltimore 17-3 in the playoffs? The game is still very much defensive especially in the playoffs. Not so much last year, but it hasn't completely disappeared.

[T master]

On 6/3/2022 at 4:59 AM, Marlton Bills said:

Jim Kelly currently sits at number 29 on the all time passing list. Had Fitzy played this year (or even most of last year) he likely would have passed him. Dalton is right behind him as well.  When I look at the list of top passers I marvel at Jim because he did it in 11 years. Has he played in 1983, 1984 and 1985, I always assume about another 10,000 yards. Do you all think that would be a reasonable amount of yards to add?  It would put him in the top 20. 

 

Just look at his completions while he was in the USFL and add those to his NFL completions that should give you a pretty good idea where he would be on that list he did a lot of good things while there i couldn't stand that he chose them over the Bills ...

 

But he made up for it i guess . I would have loved to see what if anything extra he could have done from the get go here in B/lo !! 

[Doc]

14 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

His contemporaries were Elway (16 seasons), Moon (17 seasons --in NFL), Marino (16 seasons), Young (15 seasons), Esiason (14 seasons), etc.

 

in 1994, Marino was still putting up almost 4500 yards. Moon at 4300 and Young about 4000. Same for Elway. 

 

All took the same beatings.

 

I know.  That's why I'm saying if QBs then had been protected like ones now.

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

 

I know.  That's why I'm saying if QBs then had been protected like ones now.

 

 

Well all of those guys lasted a lot longer than Jimbo in the same era/rules.  

 

It wasn't the old rules that did him in..

[RocCityRoller]

On 6/3/2022 at 8:54 AM, Albany,n.y. said:

Kelly was 37 when he retired.  No way he'd be playing at 43 or 44.  

 

 

On 6/3/2022 at 9:36 AM, 13 Second Prevent Defense said:

He had a short NFL career due to the USFL start and probably a little too much partying/not enough attention to nutrition.  Comparing stats from a  a guy today like Fitz to guys from a previous era should not be done straight up.  Guys from the 70s and 80s would be terrible if they had the stats today they did then.  It has been 39 years since Kelly was drafted.

 

Warren Moon has entered the chat. He played in the same era, and played until 44. (1978-1983 CFL, 1984-2000 NFL)

 

Moon was a freak though. Most of the pre 2000 guys played up to 40 max. Stabler and Plunkett made it to 39, which was a feat in their era. Elway and Marino only made it to 38.

 

I do think guys take being a pro more seriously, well those with very long careers. Anyone can Karlos Williams/ Kelvin Benjamin their way out of the league.

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Mr. WEO said:

Well all of those guys lasted a lot longer than Jimbo in the same era/rules.  

 

It wasn't the old rules that did him in..

 

Again I'm talking different eras.  Jim's contemporaries could have also played longer.

 

And Jim lost 3 NFL seasons playing in the USFL.

[BillsPride12]

5 hours ago, Doc said:

 

Again I'm talking different eras.  Jim's contemporaries could have also played longer.

 

And Jim lost 3 NFL seasons playing in the USFL.

I think a lot of people miss that point.  His all-time stats would have certainly been padded if he came into the league right away when he was in the physical prime of his life.  I think it all worked out though as far as the team coming together at the right time with the right pieces to form the Super Bowl teams so from that standpoint it's hard to look back and have any regrets as a Bills fan on Kelly missing those early years with the USFL.  The other problem with the lack of longevity of Jim's career was on him in my opinion, Jimbo lived a very hard lifestyle off the field back then.  He was the last of the true throwbacks that really played as hard off the field as they did on the field.  I think it was pretty common from the 70s through the 90s but guys just couldn't keep up nowadays if they took care of themselves like that now.  I agree injuries played a role in it too but I think it was the combination of poor health and nutritional habits combined with the beating he took.  There's no way anybody who is being honest could say he retired too early, he just wasn't the same guy by the time he hung up the cleats.  

[In Summary]

Kelly had great accuracy on the deep arcing passes, slants, and short-area dumps to RBs.  These resulted in Lofton/Beebe bombs, Reed RAC yards from being hit in stride, and smooth execution of screens to Thurman.   I mention these as they have not been Allen's early career strong points.  Kelly also very accurate threading the ball between defenders - more so anyway in his earlier years.  Sometimes prone to missing the underneath coverage.  Kelly a great "touch" passer IMO.  

[NoHuddleKelly12]

On 6/5/2022 at 11:34 AM, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

Well all of those guys lasted a lot longer than Jimbo in the same era/rules.  

 

It wasn't the old rules that did him in..

Not for nothing but during the years they were all going head to head, Kelly routinely played more playoff games by default as the Bills were going deeper, so per year his average games played would be highest…for sure vs Marino/Moon, with more commensurate hits/wear/tear…the beatings he took in the SB’s alone were something to behold. Will never forget el cheap shotto Ken Norton Jr launching at Jim’s knees to take him out early in SB XXVII, and the concussions from SB XXVI, etc. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, NoHuddleKelly12 said:

Not for nothing but during the years they were all going head to head, Kelly routinely played more playoff games by default as the Bills were going deeper, so per year his average games played would be highest…for sure vs Marino/Moon, with more commensurate hits/wear/tear…the beatings he took in the SB’s alone were something to behold. Will never forget el cheap shotto Ken Norton Jr launching at Jim’s knees to take him out early in SB XXVII, and the concussions from SB XXVI, etc. 

 

 

Kelly played in 17 playoff games--11 of those were during the 4 SB seasons.  In those 17 games, he was sacked a total of 25 times.  He only played all 16 regular season games 4 times in his career.  He never took at least 500 drop backs and only 6 times had over 450 attempts.

 

Marino had 11 16 game regular seasons and played in 18 playoff games.  He had 11 seasons with over 500 attempts, 3 over 600.

 

Playing the same game, they all took beatings.  Jim didn't hold up as well.

Edited June 11, 2022 by Mr. WEO

[Mr. WEO]

On 6/5/2022 at 1:27 PM, Doc said:

 

Again I'm talking different eras.  Jim's contemporaries could have also played longer.

 

And Jim lost 3 NFL seasons playing in the USFL.

 

He played 2 seasons in the NFL. Sandlot football.  The NFL, he would see, was a little different...