Preparing for Tre White to never be the same post-injury

[Big Turk]

White is defiant shouting...

 

"It's him or me, the world will never be the same!"

[Ethan in Cleveland]

1 hour ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

OK, expecting quality corner play from a rookie usually comes from fans who don't realize there's a learning curve in the NFL. Tell me about getting everything out of depth dbs when they got lit up by KC with everything on the line. Love your optimism though.

The learning curve for the NFL has changed dramatically in the last decade.  And it all has to do with what is happening in college.  Used to be you could plug and play your high draft pick OT for a decade.  Not any more.  OL play in college has devolved into nearly every play being run out of a two point stance.  Centers are more NFL ready than OTs.  In the past, QB and CB took time to develop.  Now DT is one of the longest positions to develop.  Teams pass so much in college and the route trees are nearly as complex.  The pass defenses used by Power 5 teams is just as intricate in the pros.  QBs and CBs are now stepping right on the field and if they have the talent they play reasonably well.  Not discounting some learning curve, but if Elam has the skills he should be fine.

[bigK14094]

Time will tell

[HardyBoy]

Did the study(ies) differentiate between players in the middle of big contracts and players on deals that are easier to get out of?

[HamptonBillsfan]

5 hours ago, Big Turk said:

 

Please...save it for the breeze...your takes are old and smell funky like cottage cheese.

 

We see quality play from rookie DBs every year...stop acting like it's something that never happens.

 

What rookies do you have in mind? Just curious about the funky cottage cheese reference when you come up with zero examples. Maybe your silly, unfounded assertions work with the poor souls that need anything positive about their favorite team. Not objective Bills fans.

4 hours ago, Ethan in Portland said:

The learning curve for the NFL has changed dramatically in the last decade.  And it all has to do with what is happening in college.  Used to be you could plug and play your high draft pick OT for a decade.  Not any more.  OL play in college has devolved into nearly every play being run out of a two point stance.  Centers are more NFL ready than OTs.  In the past, QB and CB took time to develop.  Now DT is one of the longest positions to develop.  Teams pass so much in college and the route trees are nearly as complex.  The pass defenses used by Power 5 teams is just as intricate in the pros.  QBs and CBs are now stepping right on the field and if they have the talent they play reasonably well.  Not discounting some learning curve, but if Elam has the skills he should be fine.

Not saying Elam can't be dominant.

,, just not expecting it year one. If it happens the defense will not be so dependent on White being White immediately. 

[Einstein]

19 hours ago, Chandler#81 said:

Part of it, frankly, is the repetitive negativity of your short posting history.

 

Is it possible that you’re thinking of a different poster? I’ve only created 10 threads in this forum, and they’ve been about Game Weather, Josh Allen hitting a home run, NFL Schedule makers giving Bills an advantage, Power Ranking, PFF and the KC game. I wouldn’t have guessed that anyone thought of me as negative before you wrote such.

[billybrew1]

Tre has to come back, he has to!  I have plans. I can envision our fully functional Death Star, I mean, secondary.

That!

is a Super Bowl worthy secondary. It sure is.

I have, for awhile now, expected our secondary to mesh about week six….

im sticking with that date.

[Big Turk]

37 minutes ago, HamptonBillsfan said:

What rookies do you have in mind? Just curious about the funky cottage cheese reference when you come up with zero examples. Maybe your silly, unfounded assertions work with the poor souls that need anything positive about their favorite team. Not objective Bills fans.

Not saying Elam can't be dominant.

,, just not expecting it year one. If it happens the defense will not be so dependent on White being White immediately. 

 

Denzel Ward, Jalen Ramsey, Patrick Peterson, Tre White, Patrick Surtain II, etc 

 

Literally multiple players that start the majority of the games as rookies every year.

 

Elam will be very good as a rookie I believe. Partially due to his skilllset, partially due to the scheme, and partially due to our coaches being exceptional especially at getting secondary players to play at a very high level even if they are UDFA's called up from the practice squad.

 

 

 

[BarleyNY]

Flame away at me all you want, but I don’t think we’ll ever see Tre in goal again. 

[The Red King]

I'm going to assume he'll be his old self until he's not.  Why think otherwise?  If he does come back just as he left, you'll have wasted all that time and effort worrying.  If he doesn't, there'll still be plenty of time to worry then.

[HamptonBillsfan]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

 

Denzel Ward, Jalen Ramsey, Patrick Peterson, Tre White, Patrick Surtain II, etc 

 

Literally multiple players that start the majority of the games as rookies every year.

 

Elam will be very good as a rookie I believe. Partially due to his skilllset, partially due to the scheme, and partially due to our coaches being exceptional especially at getting secondary players to play at a very high level even if they are UDFA's called up from the practice squad.

 

 

 

Thanks for naming the who's who of dbs in the NFL. Sadly they represent the tiny % of corners that overachieved in their rookie deal.

[uticaclub]

13 hours ago, dje85 said:

If only we had an elite qb and offense so we didn't have to rely only on our defense to win every game we play.. Oh wait..

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

13 hours ago, dje85 said:

If only we had an elite qb and offense so we didn't have to rely only on our defense to win every game we play.. Oh wait..

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

13 hours ago, dje85 said:

If only we had an elite qb and offense so we didn't have to rely only on our defense to win every game we play.. Oh wait..

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

[billsfan89]

I wonder if they did "elite" level NFL players how outcomes would look? I can think of several elite players who had ACL tears and come back to form. 

[Buffalosouth]

Tommy John surgery used to be the end of pitchers too. Hopefully Tre comes back true to form. He has become a all time Bill IMO in his short time here. Wishing for his health, hoping for the best, and trusting the process on this one.

[TBBills]

We shouldn't even let him back, just cut him. He will never be the same. 🙄

[Thurman#1]

On 5/25/2022 at 8:04 AM, Einstein said:

 

I understand not reading a post that you're not interested in. 

 

I do not understand not reading the post, but then still commenting on it.

 

The studies are from 2022, 2019 and 2017. All recent. Nothing old. All relevant today.

 

 

The 2022 study was analyzing data from 2013 to 2018.

 

The 2019 study looked at data from 2013 to 2017.

 

The 2017 study looked at incidences from 2006 to 2012.

 

Relevant today? Yeah, but the data is still old. And things appear to have gotten a lot better in the past few years.

[oldmanfan]

We'll have to see how he does.  But long term I'm more concerned with the meniscus issue than the ACL.  Modern surgical techniques are very effective at repairing the ACL.  But meniscus damage affects the cartilage within the joint, which acts as a shock absorber.  There aren't good ways to repair meniscus damage, and ultimately you wind up with bone on bone issues.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

36 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

We'll have to see how he does.  But long term I'm more concerned with the meniscus issue than the ACL.  Modern surgical techniques are very effective at repairing the ACL.  But meniscus damage affects the cartilage within the joint, which acts as a shock absorber.  There aren't good ways to repair meniscus damage, and ultimately you wind up with bone on bone issues.

I’ve read non contact injuries are easier to return from, maybe this is part of the reason. Less force. Tears are cleaner. Less damage to the knee.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Revis was in multiple probowls following his acl.

 

How well done the surgery is and hard they rehab to get the leg muscles back to form matter quite a lot. 
 

Tre has always been a good not great athlete that works hard and plays smart. 
 

im optimistic that he outperforms the numbers as he always has. 

[Chaos]

What is a high enough level of play? If tre comes back at the level of average NFL corner is that good enough for the Bills to win the super bowl? I think it is 

[Magox]

It's certainly a concern and the odds do point to considerable risks and Tre never returning to be the same player that he used to be.  There are some people who have great genetics and advances in medicine/therapy/treatments continue to improve.  We also know that Tre will outwork just about anyone for his rehab so if there was anyone who could return to near his level pre injury, Tre would be the person.

 

I'm hopeful but also somewhat mentally prepared to see a physically lesser Tre.

[RyanC883]

would like to see another vet brought in. I don’t want White rushed back.  It looks like Bills planning on Elam and Jackson as starting CB’s barring vet competition.  

 

Another thought: what if Elam or Jackson gets hurt while White is out?   Really need that Vet.  Waiting for camp cuts is my guess.  

[Augie]

3 hours ago, Magox said:

It's certainly a concern and the odds do point to considerable risks and Tre never returning to be the same player that he used to be.  There are some people who have great genetics and advances in medicine/therapy/treatments continue to improve.  We also know that Tre will outwork just about anyone for his rehab so if there was anyone who could return to near his level pre injury, Tre would be the person.

 

I'm hopeful but also somewhat mentally prepared to see a physically lesser Tre.

 

The title implies that it is inevitable that Tre will be physically lesser in the end. It’s a slight possibility that he drops off a bit this year and moving forward. It’s FAR from a certainty. We know initially it will be a slow start, but we have to wait to see how quickly he gets back to form. 

 

 I agree, nobody will work harder than Tre to come back and be as good, or better, than ever. It’s OK to prepare for the possibility that Tre is never 100% physically, but I doubt I can tell the difference between that and 98% from here on my couch. It’s also possible that as he refines his craft, the more veteran Tre will be better overall at 98% health but with a few more tricks in his bag. 

 

Time will tell, no need to panic now. 

 

 

.

Edited May 26, 2022 by Augie

[dje85]

14 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

 

No offense to Tre but I don't think we need him to win a Super Bowl. As  long as Von is as good as advertised the increased pass rush / pressure put on the qb will make the corners jobs a lot easier as they will have to cover way less time. 

14 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

 

No offense to Tre but I don't think we need him to win a Super Bowl. As  long as Von is as good as advertised the increased pass rush / pressure put on the qb will make the corners jobs a lot easier as they will have to cover way less time. 

14 hours ago, uticaclub said:

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

Good enough to win the division, yes. I’m talking about being Championship Caliber

 

No offense to Tre but I don't think we need him to win a Super Bowl. As  long as Von is as good as advertised the increased pass rush / pressure put on the qb will make the corners jobs a lot easier as they will have to cover way less time. 

[fergie's ire]

Have their been any studies of hockey goalies?  I would think the flexibility would be an asset.

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, RyanC883 said:

would like to see another vet brought in. I don’t want White rushed back.  It looks like Bills planning on Elam and Jackson as starting CB’s barring vet competition.  

 

Another thought: what if Elam or Jackson gets hurt while White is out?   Really need that Vet.  Waiting for camp cuts is my guess.  

We might see one brought in but I think the Bills are expecting Tre White to be ready towards the end of camp and ready to start week 1. Until we hear about a setback we should all expect the same.

[AuntieEm]

4 hours ago, Augie said:

 

The title implies that it is inevitable that Tre will be physically lesser in the end. It’s a slight possibility that he drops off a bit this year and moving forward. It’s FAR from a certainty. We know initially it will be a slow start, but we have to wait to see how quickly he gets back to form. 

 

 I agree, nobody will work harder than Tre to come back and be as good, or better, than ever. It’s OK to prepare for the possibility that Tre is never 100% physically, but I doubt I can tell the difference between that and 98% from here on my couch. It’s also possible that as he refines his craft, the more veteran Tre will be better overall at 98% health but with a few more tricks in his bag. 

 

Time will tell, no need to panic now. 

 

 

.

 

   Yes no one knows what paths their lives will take.  If Tre can work through the injury that is wonderful.  I'm glad he did get his second contract prior to getting injured as he certainly earned his payday.  The fact Tre always had an edge because he studied film on opponents.  That gives him a buffer as he regains his physical abilities.

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

It’s days old now but 

 

 

 

He’s looking gooood 👍🏻  😊 

[RyanC883]

7 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

We might see one brought in but I think the Bills are expecting Tre White to be ready towards the end of camp and ready to start week 1. Until we hear about a setback we should all expect the same.

 

that would be quite something.  I hope this is it.  If not, post TC pickup of a vet likely.  

[AuntieEm]

4 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

It’s days old now but 

 

 

 

He’s looking gooood 👍🏻  😊 

 Date under it says it's from 2020.  So this isn't a clip from OTAs.  Time will tell when White is back to his old self if he does regain his form.  Von Miller may have some rehabbing advice for Tre as well since he's recovered from his very nicely.  

[Big Blitz]

On 5/24/2022 at 6:33 PM, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

Pretty sobering.

 

my only response would be to hope that these stats reflect more of the “average” NFL player. A lot of the NFL “elite” tore their ACL’s and went onto have productive careers. Von Miller and Darrell Revis both come to mind. 

 

 

Cooper Kupp

 

AP

[Nextmanup]

21 hours ago, dje85 said:

 

No offense to Tre but I don't think we need him to win a Super Bowl. As  long as Von is as good as advertised the increased pass rush / pressure put on the qb will make the corners jobs a lot easier as they will have to cover way less time. 

 

No offense to Tre but I don't think we need him to win a Super Bowl. As  long as Von is as good as advertised the increased pass rush / pressure put on the qb will make the corners jobs a lot easier as they will have to cover way less time. 

 

No offense to Tre but I don't think we need him to win a Super Bowl. As  long as Von is as good as advertised the increased pass rush / pressure put on the qb will make the corners jobs a lot easier as they will have to cover way less time. 

Don't forget, you can get a lot of pressure on the QB from improved DB coverage, too!

IMO, that is a more effective way of generating pressure.

 

It all fits together and it's not this vs. that.

 

 

[Simon Says]

On 5/24/2022 at 6:23 PM, Einstein said:

This post may draw some knee-jerk reactions of anger, but please know that it wasn't written to make anyone upset. Unfortunately, the topic is naturally upsetting - We all love Tre White and want him to return to his typical dominant play. To that end, I've done some research on ACL injuries in NFL players. The common refrain from NFL fans is that ACL injuries are no longer the career-ender they once were, and I wanted to see if that was true. Unfortunately, research on players returning post ACL surgery is not optimistic, even in the modern era.

 

One study, Return to Play and Decreased Performance After Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Defensive Players published in the The American Journal of Sports Medicine (2017), shows that:

 

• After the season of surgery, athletes in the ACLR group who returned to play decreased to 57% games started and 2.38 ± 1.24 solo tackles per game, while their matched controls suffered no significant decreases. (link)

And the result of the study indicated rather succinctly:

 

• Players who successfully returned were above-average NFL players before their injury but comparatively average after their return.

 

Another study, this one published in 2022, titled Return to Play and Performance After Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Players shows similar results. Published in the Orthopaedic Journal of Sports Medicine, the results stated:

 

• Of the eligible players, only 28.5% (n = 59/207) remained in the league 3 years postinjury. Within the first 3 years postinjury, players played in fewer games (8.7 vs 13.7; P < .0001), started in fewer games (3.0 vs 8.3; P < .0001), had lower AVs (1.5 vs 4.3; P < .0001), and had decreased snap counts (259.0 vs 619.0; P < .0001) compared with preinjury. (link)

 

The conclusion of the study is no better:

 

• The study findings indicated that NFL players are severely affected by ACL injury, with only 28.5% still active in the league 3 years after the injury. Running backs, defensive linemen, and linebackers performed the worst after injury. v

 

Lastly, a 2019 study that examined ACL tears in Wide Receivers (I used this study because the WR position requires similar impact on the ACL). This study is titled 

Decreased Performance and Return to Play Following Anterior Cruciate Ligament Reconstruction in National Football League Wide Receivers. Published in The Arthroscopy Sports Medicine and Rehabilitation issue, the study found that:

 

• When we compared the tear group with the matched control cohort, players with ACL tears ended their careers on an average of 1.9 seasons earlier (2.2 vs 4.1 seasons, P < .001) and also played less than half the number of games (25.5 vs 56.6 games, P = .001), respectively. Those that RTP also saw decreased performance statistics in targets (353.6 vs 125.2 P < .001), receptions (208.0 vs 74.4, P = .001), receiving yards (2691.0 vs 987.9, P = .001), and touchdowns (17.4 vs 6.2, P = .002). (link)
• One potential good tidibt: "no significant differences were present between preinjury and postinjury in-game in all in-game statistics for the wide receiver"

 

Overall Conclusion? Concern.

 

There is a legitimate chance that Tre never returns to the level of play he showed in 2021 and prior, and there is a potential that his career will be shorter than we once thought.

 

 

This is why I would still like the Bills to add a veteran CB

[Einstein]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:12 PM, SlimShady&#x27;sSpaceForce said:

It’s days old now but 

 

 

 

He’s looking gooood 👍🏻  😊 

 

Years old, I think you mean.

[Chandler#81]

On 5/26/2022 at 7:12 PM, SlimShady&#x27;sSpaceForce said:

It’s days old now but 

 

 

 

He’s looking gooood 👍🏻  😊 

Is this from last week?! ? No red jersey? Pads, helmet and actually covering deep routes??? Nah. This must be from last season.

[frogger]

I think if we were talking about a player that relies completely on athletic ability we should be concerned.  But Tre is a cerebral player, my hope is Elam gets up to speed quickly…if he can, White can take on WR2 when he returns. 

[george c]

Tre won’t be the same until next season. 

[PrimeTime101]

lots of crystal ball work going on here. I will worry about it when I have to worry about it.