McDermott: "We need to evolve"...sounds like he wants fewer designed Allen runs

[Don Otreply]

18 minutes ago, jkeerie said:

I think it may be shown this season that Allen made Daboll as opposed to vice versa.

Allen bailed out Dabol on a regular basis, for example; the KC playoff game this past season. 

[Doc Brown]

5 minutes ago, buffblue said:

This is true. The good news is that Allen is 10 times the passer that Cam ever was.

 

Can you believe that in his MVP season he was a sub 60 percent thrower? And 2015 was by far his best. Newton reminds of Ryan Miller when he played for the Sabres - 1 standout year (in Miller's case 2009-2010) and then decidedly average otherwise.

As Bruce Arians said, "He's more like Cam Newton, but with a bigger and stronger arm.”  I really don't want any more designed runs for Allen because he's more than capable of picking a defense apart with his arm.  Newton wasn't.

[Solomon Grundy]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Says they need to do right by Allen and do right by the team...

 

Maybe that was part of the rift that was reported with Daboll?

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/sean-mcdermott-prefer-josh-allen-010459938.html

There's a 20 page topic about some help for Josh. Lol

[buffblue]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

As Bruce Arians said, "He's more like Cam Newton, but with a bigger and stronger arm.”  I really don't want any more designed runs for Allen because he's more than capable of picking a defense apart with his arm.  Newton wasn't.

Totally agree

[PonyBoy]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

McDermott saw what happened to Cam first hand.  It's a cautionary tale the Bills need to learn real quick.  Article from 2016....

 

 Carolina Panthers quarterback Cam Newton has taken a beating in his NFL career, far more than any quarterback in recent history. And suddenly, at the still-young age of 27, Newton is facing the first flash point between playing style and long-term future.

 

Newton is officially cleared to return from a concussion suffered when he tried scrambling into the end zone in Week 4. The play, and his subsequent one-game absence, was a reminder that no quarterback -- not even one who broke into the league with a patented "Superman" celebration -- can indefinitely absorb unnecessary punishment without consequence.?

 

Ahead of Sunday's game in New Orleans, let's take a closer look at what Newton has exposed his body to during his six-year career. The Panthers say they won't limit his running or impose a fundamental change in their offense, but we'll consider a suggestion for lessening the toll nonetheless.

 

Newton has been hit on 831 plays over 82 games in his career, an average of about 10 per game. The number may sound small, but it is actually extraordinary in the context of other quarterbacks. The next-closest quarterback has taken nearly 300 fewer hits over the same time period. This tally includes every play he has been hit on while either on the run or while throwing, but it is capped at one hit per play and doesn't include contact after the throw or on two-point conversions.

 

Since 2011, the Panthers have called more than twice the number of designed runs for Newton than any other team has for another quarterback. And they have resulted in 1,941 rushing yards, more than double Russell Wilson's 833. Nearly two-thirds of Newton's designed QB runs have gone between the guards, where maximum contact occurs. Newton also has taken off on more scrambles -- runs when a pass play breaks down -- than anyone but Wilson over this span. In all, Newton has been hit at least once on 533 of 575 plays that were either designed runs or meaningful scrambles in his career.

Short and sweet here. Cam ran so much because he stunk as a passer! The same cannot be said about Josh. Let Josh scramble, but designed run plays made me wince on many occasions. 

[CoudyBills]

11 minutes ago, Don Otreply said:

Allen bailed out Dabol on a regular basis, for example; the KC playoff game this past season. 

I just read some guy on Twitter talking about how Daboll bailed Josh out in that game because Josh can make post snap reads.  

 

Edit: Tyler Menting

Edited March 27, 2022 by CoudyBills
Added detail

[LOVEMESOMEBILLS]

1 hour ago, Doc Brown said:

McDermott saw what happened to Cam first hand.  It's a cautionary tale the Bills need to learn real quick.  Article from 2016....

 

 Carolina Panthers quarterback Cam Newton has taken a beating in his NFL career, far more than any quarterback in recent history. And suddenly, at the still-young age of 27, Newton is facing the first flash point between playing style and long-term future.

 

Newton is officially cleared to return from a concussion suffered when he tried scrambling into the end zone in Week 4. The play, and his subsequent one-game absence, was a reminder that no quarterback -- not even one who broke into the league with a patented "Superman" celebration -- can indefinitely absorb unnecessary punishment without consequence.?

 

Ahead of Sunday's game in New Orleans, let's take a closer look at what Newton has exposed his body to during his six-year career. The Panthers say they won't limit his running or impose a fundamental change in their offense, but we'll consider a suggestion for lessening the toll nonetheless.

 

Newton has been hit on 831 plays over 82 games in his career, an average of about 10 per game. The number may sound small, but it is actually extraordinary in the context of other quarterbacks. The next-closest quarterback has taken nearly 300 fewer hits over the same time period. This tally includes every play he has been hit on while either on the run or while throwing, but it is capped at one hit per play and doesn't include contact after the throw or on two-point conversions.

 

Since 2011, the Panthers have called more than twice the number of designed runs for Newton than any other team has for another quarterback. And they have resulted in 1,941 rushing yards, more than double Russell Wilson's 833. Nearly two-thirds of Newton's designed QB runs have gone between the guards, where maximum contact occurs. Newton also has taken off on more scrambles -- runs when a pass play breaks down -- than anyone but Wilson over this span. In all, Newton has been hit at least once on 533 of 575 plays that were either designed runs or meaningful scrambles in his career.

 

 Go through Cam's career and watch the hits he took over and over again. He repeatedly got blown up inside the pocket and while running in the open field. The hits Josh has taken vs the hits Cam took are completely different. Josh deals out the punishment in most instances. Heck he's probably hurt more defenders than they've hurt him.

 

 The offense is a completely different animal when Josh starts to run. I thought Josh did a much better job getting down or going out of bounds until late in the season and the playoffs when we absolutely needed it. I would agree though with less designed runs, but more scrambles. Those are usually his biggest runs.

 

 

Edited March 27, 2022 by LOVEMESOMEBILLS

[boater]

There is an anecdote from the early days of Tom Brady...

 

He used to take off and scramble quite a bit. Belichick told him to the effect of "if you want to last in this league, you have to stop doing that" ..and like that, Tom Brady stopped scrambling. Now here he is today playing at 44 years old.

 

 

[CEN-CAL17]

Majority of the reason JA runs or has to run is due to a weak run game!! Singletary is not a legitimate 3 down back. He’s a legit 3rd down back. This team hasn’t had a legit ground team in nearly a decade. It’s pretty clear.

[Apocalypse Nuts]

1 hour ago, SectionC3 said:

Sounds like a Bobby Johnson issue.  17 has been our best short yardage back and that has to change. 

Yeah, sounds like you have/had a Bobby Johnson issue.

[ddaryl]

I'm not a fan of QB designed runs during the regular season. Especially at the rate we use them.  I know Allen is a weapon but we will all be weeping if it causes the unthinkable.

Scrambles are necessary when things break down or Allen can see a clean route. 

 

[BillsSbSoon]

Definitely relieved reading his comments. I feared they were going to run him into the ground like cam newton. 

The designed runs were getting out of hand. We dont want josh breaking down at 30, id never forgive mcdermott for that. Glad to know they recognize it now

[Doc Brown]

9 minutes ago, boater said:

There is an anecdote from the early days of Tom Brady...

 

He used to take off and scramble quite a bit. Belichick told him to the effect of "if you want to last in this league, you have to stop doing that" ..and like that, Tom Brady stopped scrambling. Now here he is today playing at 44 years old.

 

 

I'm guessing this was the catalyst

 

 

[Buffalo716]

32 minutes ago, Steptide said:

Designed runs never really worked well for us anyway. What makes Allen such a good runner, is when he drops back, scans the field and THEN runs. 

I think it was a game by game thing

 

The last half of the season the designed quarterback Powers were ripping.. Josh was picking up 8-10 yards a chunk

 

Then there was some games early in the season where they weren't working at all

[RalphWilson'sNewWar]

11 minutes ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Majority of the reason JA runs or has to run is due to a weak run game!! Singletary is not a legitimate 3 down back. He’s a legit 3rd down back. This team hasn’t had a legit ground team in nearly a decade. It’s pretty clear.

Allen is still living in that Youthful Invulnerability mode.

 

He rarely gives up on any play.  Sometimes that results in an incredible scramble and run or a scramble/pass completion or a very weird looking interception thrown while falling backwards.

 

he hasn’t really paid the price for not giving up on a play whether that be in turnovers or injury.

 

The NFL has a way though of the law of averages always balancing out.

 

you look at somebody like Brady who gets mocked out for doing it but what does Brady do the second play a play blows up he throws the ball right into the dirt.

 

Live to fight another day.  He’s learned that the game doesn’t have to be won on the second drive of the first quarter.

 

For Ellen running there’s only so much the coaches can do because they can’t control what he’s gonna do when a play breaks down and goes off script.

 

eventually you will assume that Allen. will learn due to age injury or just experience…

Edited March 27, 2022 by RalphWilson'sNewWar

[boater]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I'm guessing this was the catalyst

 

 

Oooff. He got his clock cleaned good.

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, julian said:

Limit designed QB runs to inside the opposing 10 yard line… and give Josh the green light to take off on his own whenever he sees fit

Josh will always have the green light to scramble when flushed out. But the sheer volume of qb designed runs have to decrease. Get a good complimentary back (Hall/Walker) with Devin and Kromer will design better run schemes.  The goal is to keep 17 upright. 

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I'm guessing this was the catalyst

 

 

Eh Brady scrambled the most times in his career at age 29 

 

And his second most is at the age of 34

 

Brady never looks to run unless it's open and I don't think that hit changed anything 

 

Tom actually took it like a champ

 

 

 

[QCity]

That might be the smartest thing he's said as a head coach. Build a running game and let your RB take the abuse, not your QB.

[DJB]

1 hour ago, HamSandwhich said:

Singletary was picking it up when he was given feature back carries at the end of the year but I agree we need something else to put us over the top.

 

Scat type back that doesn't instill fear into opposing defenses. Cant catch either. 

 

Time to upgrade

[LABILLBACKER]

17 minutes ago, QCity said:

That might be the smartest thing he's said as a head coach. Build a running game and let your RB take the abuse, not your QB.

Now if his in game decisions were just as intelligent,  we'd be set.

[Mij yllek]

One of the dumbest statements a coach can make. Josh is a tremendous weapon in the run game and every week opposing coaches have to spend precious time scheming against his runs. Why would you ever want to take that away? Hopefully, its a ruse.

[Logic]

7 minutes ago, Mij yllek said:

One of the dumbest statements a coach can make. Josh is a tremendous weapon in the run game and every week opposing coaches have to spend precious time scheming against his runs. Why would you ever want to take that away? Hopefully, its a ruse.

See: downfall of Cam Newton.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

3 minutes ago, Logic said:

See: downfall of Cam Newton.

 

 

....and RG3....and Michael Vick.....

[Don Otreply]

1 hour ago, CoudyBills said:

I just read some guy on Twitter talking about how Daboll bailed Josh out in that game because Josh can make post snap reads.  

 

Edit: Tyler Menting

I’ll assume you meant “can’t “ make post snap reads, ? 
 

I don’t think that’s a completely valid statement, by whom ever tweeted that,  it is my opinion that Allen has indeed  benefited from Dabol’s tutelage, but at the same time Dabol’s over all scheme has lacked a real plan for running the ball via RBs/ having a quality O-line that could make a run game a functional aspect of the offense, causing Dabol to have to use the QB as a RB far to often, if you get my gist as it were…, that and Allen’s ability to improvise has saved the day more than once…., 

[Bangarang]

I’m cool with Josh running but my biggest issues were relying too much on the designed QB runs and Josh unnecessary  taking hits. 
 

Maybe that’s what McD has an issue with?

[Don Otreply]

19 minutes ago, Mij yllek said:

One of the dumbest statements a coach can make. Josh is a tremendous weapon in the run game and every week opposing coaches have to spend precious time scheming against his runs. Why would you ever want to take that away? Hopefully, its a ruse.

He never said he was going to remove that aspect of Joshes game altogether, stop clutching your pearls over things that were never stated, ya might want to re-read what he said…, 🙄

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Says they need to do right by Allen and do right by the team...

 

Maybe that was part of the rift that was reported with Daboll?

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/sean-mcdermott-prefer-josh-allen-010459938.html

Sounds like he was tired of the Daboll game plan 

[JESSEFEFFER]

QB power runs rarely end with a bad hit.  The worst I remember was in OT of the playoffs vs. the Texans when Knox ran by his block and Josh had no time to react as he got blasted in the chin.  It should have been a game winning play.  The QB zone reads end badly most often when Josh misreads and can't beat the first defender.  The worst I can remember was vs. LAC when Bosa twisted him down.  I thought that was close to a leg injury.  The hit (late, imo) that cost him 4 starts was in the pocket and a shot to his extended arm well after the ball was released.  I also remember an awkward horse collar tackle while he was in the pocket (which is legal.)

 

I think of Favre's problem with pain killers and Luck retiring due to being mentally no longer willing to deal with the constant pain of injury and rehab.  Josh seems bullet proof by comparison.  Let's not kid ourselves, there are all sorts of ways to get injured and many of them are in the pocket.  Broken thumb on a hit to a helmet, lower body injuries from a stumbling, rolling defender or being landed on by an illegal, full body weight tackle (left shoulder injury vs. the Raiders.)  I say the zone read runs have been some of the least productive and most risky plays so I'd be ok with them going away.

Edited March 28, 2022 by JESSEFEFFER

[Beerball]

3 hours ago, Big Turk said:

Says they need to do right by Allen and do right by the team...

 

Maybe that was part of the rift that was reported with Daboll?

 

https://www.yahoo.com/sports/sean-mcdermott-prefer-josh-allen-010459938.html

Or maybe it’s because his QB now ha$ hi$ $econd contract. Now it makes fiscal sense to keep Allen on the field. Before? No big deal. 

[Don Otreply]

6 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

I’m cool with Josh running but my biggest issues were relying too much on the designed QB runs and Josh unnecessary  taking hits. 
 

Maybe that’s what McD has an issue with?

That’s exactly what McDermott was getting at…,  he wants his QB to not take unnecessary /stupid hits, I would think all of us fans would think that is a good idea,  remember the NE game were Josh was pretty much knocked out in a game we would have very likely won if he had not had to leave the field? It’s that sort of thing…

Edited March 27, 2022 by Don Otreply

[SydneyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, IronMaidenBills said:

Breece Hall! That’s your answer McD. 

 

Dude, I have broken records with a bigger playlist than your take on Breece.

 

We are NOT taking a running back in the first round.

[Big Turk]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

McDermott saw what happened to Cam first hand.  It's a cautionary tale the Bills need to learn real quick.  Article from 2016....

 

 Carolina Panthers quarterback Cam Newton has taken a beating in his NFL career, far more than any quarterback in recent history. And suddenly, at the still-young age of 27, Newton is facing the first flash point between playing style and long-term future.

 

Newton is officially cleared to return from a concussion suffered when he tried scrambling into the end zone in Week 4. The play, and his subsequent one-game absence, was a reminder that no quarterback -- not even one who broke into the league with a patented "Superman" celebration -- can indefinitely absorb unnecessary punishment without consequence.?

 

Ahead of Sunday's game in New Orleans, let's take a closer look at what Newton has exposed his body to during his six-year career. The Panthers say they won't limit his running or impose a fundamental change in their offense, but we'll consider a suggestion for lessening the toll nonetheless.

 

Newton has been hit on 831 plays over 82 games in his career, an average of about 10 per game. The number may sound small, but it is actually extraordinary in the context of other quarterbacks. The next-closest quarterback has taken nearly 300 fewer hits over the same time period. This tally includes every play he has been hit on while either on the run or while throwing, but it is capped at one hit per play and doesn't include contact after the throw or on two-point conversions.

 

Since 2011, the Panthers have called more than twice the number of designed runs for Newton than any other team has for another quarterback. And they have resulted in 1,941 rushing yards, more than double Russell Wilson's 833. Nearly two-thirds of Newton's designed QB runs have gone between the guards, where maximum contact occurs. Newton also has taken off on more scrambles -- runs when a pass play breaks down -- than anyone but Wilson over this span. In all, Newton has been hit at least once on 533 of 575 plays that were either designed runs or meaningful scrambles in his career.

 

The difference is Newton got battered in the pocket far more than Allen does. Allen has elusiveness and escapability in the pocket few other QBs do. He makes people look silly most of the time when they get a free shot on him.

 

Newton on the other hand was one of the most hit QBs in the NFL for numerous years.

2 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

His career was shortened imo as much by the amount of damage he took in the pocket as he did running. I’ve never seen an NFL quarterback get fewer calls than Newton ever.

 

Newton for as good a runner as he was had almost no elusiveness inside the pocket. Dude got hit more than any QB in the NFL for numerous seasons. Something Allen excels at and takes fewer hits than the majority of the QBs in the league, even with his running because he is so elusive in the pocket. Even guys with free shots rarely make a tackle and sometimes barely lay a hand on him.

 

People need to stop making these baseless comparisons with Newton. Allen takes far far far less hits than Newton. Allen might take the hits Newton did in a single year in three years.

Edited March 27, 2022 by Big Turk

[Motor26]

1 hour ago, CEN-CAL17 said:

Majority of the reason JA runs or has to run is due to a weak run game!! Singletary is not a legitimate 3 down back. He’s a legit 3rd down back. This team hasn’t had a legit ground team in nearly a decade. It’s pretty clear.

They need a better oline to have a legit ground game. 

[transient]

2 hours ago, Doc Brown said:

Newton missed two games the first four years of his career with the same playing style.  Josh missed three I believe his rookie year.  It's unsustainable.

Josh missed three games because of a late hit to his throwing elbow when he was in the pocket. 

[transplantbillsfan]

Doesn't sound like he wants him to stop running. I think we all agree it'd be ideal if he ran less and we won more. The problem is when we're in close games or losing, we need Allen to take over. And running is a big part of that.

[DrDawkinstein]

We definitely need to build a more traditional running attack with a real threat RB. But stopping Josh from running completely would be a huge mistake. We need to have a couple of designed Josh runs per game. Along with a couple of his scrambles. The defense needs to know there is the threat of Josh running, and we need to take advantage of Josh's unique running ability.

[Doc Brown]

Just now, transient said:

Josh missed three games because of a late hit to his throwing elbow when he was in the pocket. 

That's not the point.  Newton missed only two games in his first four years of football (both in 2014).  One due to a sack in a preseason game and one later in the year after a car accident. 

 

The point is that Newton was once viewed as close to invincible because he didn't miss hardly any games at the start of his career despite his playing style (which is very similar to Allen's).  Newton's career resembled that of a hard running RB who peaked early and was worn down by the time he hit 30.  It's a cautionary tale that Beane and McDermott witnessed first hand.

[without a drought]

2 hours ago, boater said:

There is an anecdote from the early days of Tom Brady...

 

He used to take off and scramble quite a bit. Belichick told him to the effect of "if you want to last in this league, you have to stop doing that" ..and like that, Tom Brady stopped scrambling. Now here he is today playing at 44 years old.

 

 

It's a good thing he told him or he'd have all the QB rushing records too. 

 

 

 

[Success]

I'd be thrilled if Allen only ran once or twice a game.  I want him playing at a high level for a long time.