Speed: John Brown vs E Sanders

[Virgil]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

Anyone concerned that John Brown's ability to keep safeties deep was lost when E Sanders replaced him?   

Anyone have their relative 40 times?    I don't recall Sanders being a burner.   Hope I am wrong..

Concerned we have a great, but less fast WR group, and secondaries will accordingly play tighter to the line of scrimmage.  

Diggs and Davis are our outside burners, if we are so inclined to use them that way.  Beasley and Sanders are space eaters 

[klos63]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

Anyone concerned that John Brown's ability to keep safeties deep was lost when E Sanders replaced him?   

Anyone have their relative 40 times?    I don't recall Sanders being a burner.   Hope I am wrong..

Concerned we have a great, but less fast WR group, and secondaries will accordingly play tighter to the line of scrimmage.  

I can't get myself to be remotely concerned about our WR group.

[Bookie Man]

Sanders 75 / 850 / 6

Davis 65 / 750 / 8 

[ProcessTruster]

23 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Sanders isn’t a burner anymore, but he still can separate very well and he should be productive here.  It surprised me that the Bills did not make getting a deep threat a priority.  But on the other hand losing Brown last season didn’t seem to hurt the passing game so maybe separation is what works with Allen and this offense.  A deep threat is always helpful for an offense but maybe it’s not as important for this one.  I dunno. We shall see. 

so it seems...  we don't bust that Seattle game open last year without that John Brown speed , not sure I see a guy like that on today's roster.  

[Max Fischer]

What do Beane, McDermott and Daboll think?

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

19 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Since when is Davis a burner?….Diggs is as close to a burner as it gets on the roster at WR…. They don’t really have a pure speed guy at the position… I think the OP has a point. Will be interested to see how defenses play us and if the lack of speed becomes a bit of an issue.

Give me a bunch of guys that can run all the routes, get separation, catch the ball, get the feet down. And they can run a 4.DGAF 40 😉 

[BigDingus]

Sanders has been a solid deep threat for years, and is also great from the slot. He consistently get separation which is what matters most. He's also playing in an offense that spreads the field more, and he's got good speed off the line. 

 

Yes, he's a bit slower than Brown, but not even close to slow. I know Google says his 40 time was 4.4 seconds, but in game he's shown to be quite fast when it matters. 

 

So I think he'll still provide an upgrade overall as long as he stays healthy

[SectionC3]

31 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Since when is Davis a burner?….Diggs is as close to a burner as it gets on the roster at WR…. They don’t really have a pure speed guy at the position… I think the OP has a point. Will be interested to see how defenses play us and if the lack of speed becomes a bit of an issue.

Stevenson. 

[billybrew1]

1 hour ago, Sheneneh Jenkins said:

Is it that much difference in their speed to make much difference? Either way, I'm sure Sanders will draw his share of attention from opposing defenses regardless. imo I think Sanders is a slight improvement over Brown.

Sanders is a slight improvement over Brown when Brown is at his peak and 100% healthy.

So, Sanders is a significant weapon.....

 

Our four-wide O might be the most potent in the whole NFL, we'll see....

 

(we'll also what it looks like from time to time with McKenzie and/or Kumerow in there as well.

Daboll will run plays for both of those receivers to limit the wear and tear on the top four whether the top four gets beat up or not. You gotta use everyone on a SB run. Using Breida, Moss, Gilliam and Knox as well. Even little Timmy Sweeney......

 

 

[Doc Brown]

1 hour ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

Sanders is a slot receiver, brown isnt. Davis is the #2. Both him and Diggs are good deep threats.

Sanders plays outside too so he’s more versatile compared to Brown.  I suspect you’ll see Sanders and Davis split time opposite Diggs as the Z receiver in 11 personnel.  Then you’ll see Beasley and Sanders in the slot with Diggs and Davis outside in 10 personnel.

[GETTOTHE50]

1 hour ago, The Dean said:

 

Are you simply making stuff up?  

 

 

yea i was

[Ed_Formerly_of_Roch]

Considering he missed 6 games, 2 other games he combined for one reception, and not once he gained 100 yards, the answer is NO. 

 

Agree too with the "Speed is over rated " group.  If they need speed then throw Stevenson out there, by week 4 he'll likely be back.

 

Recall last year calculating the difference between Browns fastest 40 times and G Davis.  On a 40 yard fly pattern the difference n speed equated to Brown being about 5 feet further down the field.  For that 5 feet to matter though, the CB needs to not be able to keep up with him and more importantly the pass has to be perfectly thrown for him to catch it on a dead run.  Think the biggest reason long passes aren't completed all that often is the throw isn't perfect.

[GoBills!]

Gabe Davis will be the bigger threat with Sanders and Beasley going in spots 3 & 4. Brown lost his spot to Gabe not Sanders. 

[skibum]

The Bills are stacked at WR with a bunch of gifted, smart athletes (mostly vets) who can always get open all over the place. They can all go deep - even Beasley. This shouldn't even be a conversation. 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by skibum

[Scott7975]

I read somewhere that the Bills actually wanted Sanders before Brown but Sanders signed with the Saints so Brown was the next option. 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Scott7975

[BarleyNY]

46 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

so it seems...  we don't bust that Seattle game open last year without that John Brown speed , not sure I see a guy like that on today's roster.  

Honestly, I agree.  I’m being hopeful, but I can see missing that piece coming back to bite us

[Hapless Bills Fan]

25 minutes ago, ProcessTruster said:

Anyone concerned that John Brown's ability to keep safeties deep was lost when E Sanders replaced him?   

Anyone have their relative 40 times?    I don't recall Sanders being a burner.   Hope I am wrong..

Concerned we have a great, but less fast WR group, and secondaries will accordingly play tighter to the line of scrimmage.  

 

So Back in Da Day, John Brown ran a 4.34 at the 2014 combine.

Further Back in Da Day, Emmanuel Sanders ran a 4.41 at the 2010 combine.  That's not as fast, but still faster than many corners.

 

Fair question is: how much of that speed does each of them retain, today - 11 years and 7 years later, after multiple foot and ankle injuries and surgeries?

 

John Brown was 1) Out for 7+ games last season and relatively ineffective in 2 more 2) IMHO, not as fast when he returned from injury

 

A look at how the Bills passing game fared in those games would probably be indicative of whether your concerns are warranted

 

 

10 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I read somewhere that the Bills actually wanted Sanders before Brown but Sanders signed with the Saints so Brown was the next option. 

 

Sanders was still with Denver in the 2019 offseason when the Bills signed Brown

I believe it may be true that the Bills were interested in trading for him, but unwilling to offer the 3rd and 4th (with a 5th back) that San Fran offered.

[Virgil]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Since when is Davis a burner?….Diggs is as close to a burner as it gets on the roster at WR…. They don’t really have a pure speed guy at the position… I think the OP has a point. Will be interested to see how defenses play us and if the lack of speed becomes a bit of an issue.

Deep threat is Moreso what I meant 

[Mr. WEO]

1 hour ago, ProcessTruster said:

so it seems...  we don't bust that Seattle game open last year without that John Brown speed , not sure I see a guy like that on today's roster.  

 

Because Brown wouldn't even make this roster.  No chance.

[billybrew1]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Since when is Davis a burner?….Diggs is as close to a burner as it gets on the roster at WR…. They don’t really have a pure speed guy at the position… I think the OP has a point. Will be interested to see how defenses play us and if the lack of speed becomes a bit of an issue.

While not burners, both Diggs and Davis are fast enough to get open deep. So can Sanders, McKenzie and Stevenson.

Sure, I'd like a real flyer on the Bills ala Tyreek Hill But the Bills receiver's are fast enough to form one of the very tip-top best offenses in the league, quite possibly; the best.

 

I'd say the best is who puts up the most points this year. I like Buffalo a lot in this regard. We're certainly going to finish in the top three unless injuries really derail us.

 

I think fans tend to overate deep speed. It is why Devin Singletary is not a popular Bill. But Devin is going to start this year and he is going to do very well.

 

Go Bills!

[Scott7975]

19 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

So Back in Da Day, John Brown ran a 4.34 at the 2014 combine.

Further Back in Da Day, Emmanuel Sanders ran a 4.41 at the 2010 combine.  That's not as fast, but still faster than many corners.

 

Fair question is: how much of that speed does each of them retain, today - 11 years and 7 years later, after multiple foot and ankle injuries and surgeries?

 

John Brown was 1) Out for 7+ games last season and relatively ineffective in 2 more 2) IMHO, not as fast when he returned from injury

 

A look at how the Bills passing game fared in those games would probably be indicative of whether your concerns are warranted

 

 

 

Sanders was still with Denver in the 2019 offseason when the Bills signed Brown

I believe it may be true that the Bills were interested in trading for him, but unwilling to offer the 3rd and 4th (with a 5th back) that San Fran offered.

I may be not remember the article correctly then. It was something about the Bills wanting him. Wish I could find it again but I can’t. 

[billybrew1]

And!

 

and,

 

Stefon sez he wants to catch more deep balls and I for one wouldn't want to bet against him. I say he gets more long TDs this year. What's he need? One? IDK? Can't recall him getting too many bombs....

Josh Allen has to learn to put a lot more air under those long passes as well.

[John from Riverside]

2 hours ago, Putin said:

Sanders on this team is a # 5 WR 

ehhhh...no he is not

[Scott7975]

Lack of speed won’t be anymore of an issue than it was last year. Sanders is better than Brown at getting separation. 

[Solomon Grundy]

Just now, Scott7975 said:

Lack of speed won’t be anymore of an issue than it was last year. Sanders is better than Brown at getting separation. 

And more physical. It seemed to me that Smoke didn’t like to matchup with physical corners. Like they took him out the game 

[dgrochester55]

Brown was a good player and a joy to watch when he was on the team and I appreciate his contributions.  I would be worried that since he could not crack the depth chart on a Raiders group that was average at best that he may not be 100 percent or have lost a step.    I would not see a need for Buffalo to pick him up unless there was a couple of injuries at the position.

Edited September 3, 2021 by dgrochester55

[The Dean]

1 hour ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

yea i was

 

 

Fair enough.  🙃

[BigAl2526]

Sanders isn't a 4.3 burner, but he can get deep.

[Brand J]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

I may be not remember the article correctly then. It was something about the Bills wanting him. Wish I could find it again but I can’t. 

Right before the Bills traded for Diggs they were after Sanders. Sanders wasn’t sure about joining the team and told the Bills to give some time to think about it (something like 24 hours?) Hours later that same day, Sanders saw the trade for Diggs go down and was like “ok, I guess that was that” and he made the decision to join the Saints. I recall the article as well.

[foreboding]

4 hours ago, ßookie_tech said:

Who puts up better numbers this year, Sanders or Gabe Davis? That is the question. 

I suspect Gabe will TBH. Kid is a well-prepared gamer and rarely drops a ball, not to mention he has some serious "toe-drag-swag."

[billsbackto81]

4 hours ago, ßookie_tech said:

Who puts up better numbers this year, Sanders or Gabe Davis? That is the question. 

I would assume Sanders has more catches while Davis has more yards.

[The Dean]

Just now, billsbackto81 said:

I would assume Sanders has more catches while Davis has more yards.

 

 

Something like that. IMO if things go as they should, they both get plenty of opportunities. One might get more catches, one more yards, TDs, etc. If the offense is successful and the team succeeds, who (other than the player, his agent/family/friends) really cares about who has better numbers? Especially if you factore in blocking, effort when not the primary receiver, etc.

[TheBrownBear]

I do worry our lack of speed could become an issue.  And looking at our top 4 WRs and top 2 RBs, you can see why McBeane kept Breida and Stevenson (along with McKenzie).  Those are really the only guys who can threaten a defense with pure speed.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, JayBaller10 said:

Right before the Bills traded for Diggs they were after Sanders. Sanders wasn’t sure about joining the team and told the Bills to give some time to think about it (something like 24 hours?) Hours later that same day, Sanders saw the trade for Diggs go down and was like “ok, I guess that was that” and he made the decision to join the Saints. I recall the article as well.

 

I can believe that, originally though the assertion was we were trying to sign Sanders in 2019 before we signed Brown. 

 

He was under contract to Denver at that time.

[Thurman#1]

Shouldn't be any question that we lost something in terms of speed. Defenses and safeties will indeed notice and we probably won't see as much two deep.

 

On the other hand, while he won't get over the top as often as Brown was able to till they just stayed deep on him, Sanders also gets deep occasionally, though he does it differently, using route running, suddenness and moves rather than raw speed.

 

But Sanders has his own strengths, which will create complications and difficulties for defenses.

 

We definitely lost something, and we'll likely see the result of that. But we still have Allen, and he's the key figure here, and Sanders will cause problems for defenses, though they will be different problems. We lost something, but gained something else.

[Thurman#1]

4 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Because Brown wouldn't even make this roster.  No chance.

 

 

Money matters aside, as well as age and where people are in the arcs of their careers, and roles in terms of who's a slot guy and who's not, all of that aside ... based only on talent, of course Brown would make this roster.

 

He's better than Kumerow and McKenzie. Maybe even Davis, though that's harder to say.

 

Of course, you can't in real life throw away salary, age and roles. But if they could afford him, he'd very very likely make the team. Guys who the Bills cut or don't re-sign tend to be consistently under-rated on the boards, a kind of sour grapes, "who needs him" kind of feeling. Brown was a good receiver. Availability problems last year but hasn't overall been injury-prone. Which of Kumerow, Davis and McKenzie has put up a thousand yard season with Josh Allen throwing to him, or with any other QB for that matter?

 

4 hours ago, GoBills! said:

Gabe Davis will be the bigger threat with Sanders and Beasley going in spots 3 & 4. Brown lost his spot to Gabe not Sanders. 

 

 

Possible, but unlikely. Certainly nothing we've seen so far.

 

The Bills' own depth chart lists Davis behind Sanders.

 

https://www.buffalobills.com/team/depth-chart

 

 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Turk71]

Sanders was a burner coming into the league. 4.39 to 4.41

4.34 for Brown at the combine

 

Sanders 10 yd and 20 yd splits were faster than Browns. Don't know how much speed he's lost but he's still pretty quick and fast and is a better and more complete route runner than Brown.

[machine gun kelly]

6 hours ago, eball said:

Did we trade for Ertz yet?

Hey, that’s Houses comment.

 

Sanders is a fine addition.  He didn’t exactly disappoint last Saturday.

[Turk71]

 Sanders ran the fastest combine 40 among the current wrs on the team though it was some years ago. Sanders(4.41)McKenzie(4.42) Stevenson(4.45) Diggs(4.46)

Beasley(4.49)

Edited September 3, 2021 by Turk71

[Putin]

2 hours ago, foreboding said:

I suspect Gabe will TBH. Kid is a well-prepared gamer and rarely drops a ball, not to mention he has some serious "toe-drag-swag."

Davis had some amazing catches but I have to disagree about that he rarely drops a ball , actually his drop rate was higher then Knox 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Putin