The Great Tremaine Edmunds Debate

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I feel like there is a decent chance we Klein and Edmunds flip positions this summer, and the team drafts a SS/LB hybrid like they were so rumored to have wanted to do last summer. 

[BillMafia716ix]

Him only being 22 is not an excuse it’s just facts. Hell, he just learned how to play through injury this past season. He’s not perfect by any means but this coaching staff believes in his ability to grow as a player. I mean the kid is only 22. 

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I feel like there is a decent chance we Klein and Edmunds flip positions this summer, and the team drafts a SS/LB hybrid like they were so rumored to have wanted to do last summer. 

I think that's exactly what they'll do. Klein for cheap will play the MLB role. Edmunds will finally slide outside and Sean will find that fast SS/LB hybrid. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

Edmunds just doesn't play like a guy who has great instincts for the position. 

 

He's not a London Fletcher or Zach Thomas. 

 

Occasionally, he guesses right and blows up a play. 

 

But he hasn't done anything at MLB that warrants a large 2nd contract with the Bills. 

Edited February 5, 2021 by Straight Hucklebuck

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I feel like there is a decent chance we Klein and Edmunds flip positions this summer, and the team drafts a SS/LB hybrid like they were so rumored to have wanted to do last summer. 

 

The first bit? No chance. The second bit? Extremely likely IMO.

[Victory Formation]

Tremaine Edmunds the OLB has tremendous potential. Tremaine Edmunds the MLB will never live up to what we thought he’d be. No instincts, not physical enough to take on blocks. Could do very well covering the TEs of the league. Could see him beating tackles with his speed off the edge as a blitzer. He does not have what it takes between his ears to be the QB of our defense. Still a huge talent though at OLB.

[jdonley1180]

star lotulelei opting out has more to do with Edmunds average play, than Tremaine himself

[Big Blitz]

On 2/4/2021 at 6:55 PM, JohnNord said:

Over the past few days, Bills Twitter has been split over Tremaine Edmunds.
 

The Case for Edmunds:

WGR’s Nate Geary and Cover 1’s Erik Turner

Both have defended Edmunds and believes that he isn’t the problem.  They have also said THE excuse - he’s 22!  Also feels he’s a scapegoat and suffering from having a poor DL.

 

To be fair the stuff about the DL is a good argument but I’m not sure that’s the entire issue.  

 

The case against Edmunds:

Majority of Bills Twitter
 

They will point to weakness Edmunds has shown in run support, how easily he can get fooled and lost in space, and the lack of overall impact plays.  

Maybe this group doesn’t know the X and O’s but they see a player who appears to have struggled on the field quite a bit. 

My take

I normally agree with Nate and Erik but as of February 2021, I’m skeptical that Edmunds will ever live up to his potential in the defense.  I don’t think he got much better and while the issue of the DL and injuries are valid, I just don’t think he’s shown that he’s a special player.

 

I’m really hoping we see a different player because after next year there are no more excuses.  No more....”but he’s only 22.”  Because after 4 years the excuses need to stop.  
 

Many here were not high on Josh last offseason and look what happened.  So you never know....but we need to see more.  

 

PRO EDMUNDS

 

 

Against Edmunds:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It's a great post in reasons why we need to keep Milano.   

[GunnerBill]

11 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

Tremaine Edmunds the OLB has tremendous potential. Tremaine Edmunds the MLB will never live up to what we thought he’d be. No instincts, not physical enough to take on blocks. Could do very well covering the TEs of the league. Could see him beating tackles with his speed off the edge as a blitzer. He does not have what it takes between his ears to be the QB of our defense. Still a huge talent though at OLB.

 

The problem with this theory is the evidence doesn't really back it up. 72 blitzes this season and only 3 pressures. Tight Ends have been part of his coverage issue already this year in fact teams have specifically schemed to get tight ends against him. 

 

His best football was in 2019 as an MLB. That is where he is staying IMO.

Edited February 6, 2021 by GunnerBill

[RochesterLifer]

19 hours ago, Nextmanup said:

The fact that there is such debate surrounding his game is all anyone needs to know about how good he is.

 

Don't recall any debate at all about how good or bad Biscuit or Talley were, for example.

 

 

And where would that debate be had? Two Bills Drive? Twitter? Facebook? If Edmunds has played in '92, there would have been no debate about him, either.

[BuffaloRebound]

1 hour ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The problem with this theory is the evidence doesn't really back it up. 72 blitzes this season and only 3 pressures. Tight Ends have been part of his coverage issue already this year in fact teams have specifically schemed to get tight ends against him. 

 

His best football was in 2019 as an MLB. That is where he is staying IMO.

Agreed.  Most of his blitzes were straight up the gut though.  Edmunds is not good at shedding blockers head on.  He might actually be a better player coming off the edge, but not enough data to support that. I will say though that any splash plays he does make are on sweeps where he can out-run his blocker.  That might be some evidence he’d be better on the edge.  

[Ethan in Cleveland]

10 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

The problem with this theory is the evidence doesn't really back it up. 72 blitzes this season and only 3 pressures. Tight Ends have been part of his coverage issue already this year in fact teams have specifically schemed to get tight ends against him. 

 

His best football was in 2019 as an MLB. That is where he is staying IMO.

Covering a TE in the zone at the MLB spot is entirely different than on the edge. It's not even comparable.  

Edmunds would be a terror at OLB. Every bit as good as KJ Wright in Seattle and probably even much better. 

[Mat68]

On 2/5/2021 at 4:27 PM, BillMafia716ix said:

Him only being 22 is not an excuse it’s just facts. Hell, he just learned how to play through injury this past season. He’s not perfect by any means but this coaching staff believes in his ability to grow as a player. I mean the kid is only 22. 

You draft a linebaker he is the same age as Edmunds.  Back 2 back Pro Bowls, played hurt.  He is a building block on defense.  

[BADOLBILZ]

On 2/6/2021 at 6:15 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

The problem with this theory is the evidence doesn't really back it up. 72 blitzes this season and only 3 pressures. Tight Ends have been part of his coverage issue already this year in fact teams have specifically schemed to get tight ends against him. 

 

His best football was in 2019 as an MLB. That is where he is staying IMO.

 

 

I think the problem with everything he does is that there is no evidence to support the notion that he is exceptional at it.

 

Case in point:  you say he changes how teams attack the Bills offense.   That's pure fiction.   There is no fear of him. 

 

Because he has PROVEN over and over and over that he simply doesn't make plays as an off-ball LB.

 

As for not blitzing well.........while that is certainly a reason to question his pass rush ability.......blitzing and pass rushing from the LOS are not the same thing.

 

I'd like to see him on the edge.    Probably won't happen here but maybe at his next team.  

  

[DrPJax]

On 2/4/2021 at 7:47 PM, JGMcD2 said:

I vote we get rid of Edmunds and replace him with a linebacker from the 1980s. We will then be able to stop all the elite running offenses in the league like the Ravens, Colts, Patriots and Rams. 
 

Our 1980s LB won’t be able to defend against the pass, but that’s ok. 

Cornelius Bennett, Darryl Talley, Chris Spielman, Spikes were all just as fast , covered backs and TEs pretty well , but they also made impact plays that were memorable. How many of those memories do we have from Edmunds?   Mine are mostly seeing him being pushed ten yards downfield by a tight end, hitting wrong gaps, rarely hitting a back for a loss or causing a fumble hitting a back just a he gets a hand off, watching  O lineman get their hands on him and he never disengages until after the whistle , dropping back in third and long coverage deeper than the first down marker and then having guys catch routes in front of him and he tackles them after they get the yardage needed for the first down.  I could go on.  He has had  a few Pbus, 3 ints so far , 5 sacks in three years for a 6 ‘ 5” supposed athletic freak. I would take any of those guys I mentioned over this “ potential”.  ( Hey Chase Young is just out of college , not quite as big , yet he plays with aggression and was the defensive rookie of the year, so maybe we are waiting to long for this potential?
 

  This coverage  LB is adequate at that but that doesn’t make up for deficiencies in run stopping and I don’t see him elevating the other players like Talley , Bennett, Spielman all did.  I think he needs to be moved to OLB , maybe take some of the defensive alignment calls off his back and see if he plays up,to his potential if he is allowed to play free, get the QB, and not have to think so much. But if you can’t separate him from this d, this scheme , then he is what he is and that’s not enough to get us to be the team we want to be , a team that can beat KC. Watch TB linebackers today. I would love white over edmunds any day. 
 

As a quick tag as I am watching the pre game Super Bowl stuff, I have to say I am so over the NFL shoving race down my throat all day. I have turned the Channel several times and when I come back , it’s still more “ woke advice “ that has be being preached all year by social justice warriors. I have seen the  worst of race being used as a qualification. Med schools I applied too ( late 70’S, early 80’s) had certain quotoas forced on them for funding; I literally saw students given places in Med school that , GOD AS MY WITNESS, could not write complete sentences in their shared note taking responsibilities.  They got  held back but not dismissed as money had been “ invested “ in them being there. Worse they took the place of More qualified people just to artificially try to solve a more complicated issues. I watched today as the yearly Goodell interview was done and he “ promised” the NFL would do better, not  just with coaches but with GMs and owners!  Really ?  What chance do I have or ever had to be an owner of an NFL franchise or get paid millions of dollars to coach a game?  70% o the nfl are minority players who are paid millions and are among some of the most “privileged” people in our country.  That’s ok cuz it’s about talent , they earned their way on the field. I doubt any player was given his position just because of his skin color , not in this time , not now in this country.   Nfl, quit lying to me, quit telling me life should be fair or made more fair based on skin color. That just creates victims, victimhood, and takes away from those who earned their success.  Today, and this season, this focus has not been a good look. Hey how many coal miners or sons of coal miners or steel workers will be getting their NFL franchise Roger?🤔😉😇

( normally i would not say anything political on here but this was football related , and all day “ experts “ on addiction have been posting on here related to the tragedy involving the reid family and the family whose car was hurt) 

[Jerboski]

Seen about 5 plays from white and already wish we could swap them

[Mango]

On 2/5/2021 at 12:13 PM, ScottLaw said:

Pretty sure Edmunds missed one game last season, and I didn’t really see a whole lot of drop off in play from the defense with him out of the lineup. 
 

I don’t think you’ll see a whole lot of drop in play from the team as long as Allen, Diggs, and Tre White are in there..... those 3 are the real difference makers on the team. 

It looks like Poyer does a lot of backing up for Edmunds in both the pass and run game.  It’s a big part of why we struggle with multi dimensional teams like KC, Indy, and Tennessee.

 

I agree with another poster that said you keep Edmunds because the chances of upgrading aren’t great. Give him his 5th year and some more time, but I wouldn’t extend him. At least not for more than 10M per year. 
 

If Milano could stay healthy (snap count, not games played), this decision would be a no brainer. 

[Norcalbillsfan]

On 2/4/2021 at 4:13 PM, Rc2catch said:

I like to think it has a lot to do with scheme and pass rush. 
You can’t expect this guy to cover the middle of the field after 3 seconds. When he’s dropping back the quarterback needs to force a decision in less than 4 seconds or basically Edmunds is hung out to dry. 
There’s not a linebacker in the league that’s gonna drop like that and have success if the pass rush isn’t getting home. 
I do still think there’s a lot of room to grow in the run game, and I can agree with a lot of people who say he plays soft. Basically if anyone touches him he’s out of the play. Not a good trait to be in the middle. 
I hope they have plans to switch things up a little. I think getting a good edge pass rusher changes an awful lot in this defense. 

Agreed, mahomes made him look bad, looked him off all game and shredded him. But its tough for a lb to cover with no pass rush. My biggest disappointment with edmunds is getting completely taken out of running plays by anyone, including pass catching TEs. How are you a pro bowl LB and your getting consistently blocked completely out of a play by a 2nd string TE?

[YoloinOhio]

 

[SCBills]

I’d like to see him rush the passer more.  I think he has a lot of potential in that role.  
 

He’s an enigma though... so young, but that doesn’t change the fact that we have to make a decision on whether to pay him soon. 

[BADOLBILZ]

13 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Wait, Edmunds is only 22???
 

 

 

 

He turns 23 soon after the draft.

 

I remember when Houston selected 19 year old DT Amobi Okoye in 2007 and he put up 5.5 sacks as a rookie...........a record for 20 year and younger DT's!  

 

He started for 4 years.......signed with Chicago as a free agent and flamed out at 24.

 

The common thread with Edmunds is that his best year as a playmaker was his rookie year.......and that he just leveled off and was adequate(and young) but didn't improve.

 

The AFC is pretty weak at MLB........which helps Edmunds with the pro bowl nods.........but even so, Edmunds is still graded on a curve with the assumption that there is a lot more there as a MLB.

 

If he had been a 3rd round pick at age 21-22 like a Preston Brown,  they'd be looking for an upgrade on Edmunds because he's not been instinctive and doesn't make game changing plays at MLB.

[Mat68]

There is no debate.  2 time probowler will be 23 week 1.  He has incredible potential.  Imo thrid and long blitz Edmunds put Milano in coverage.

[LABILLBACKER]

13 minutes ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

He turns 23 soon after the draft.

 

I remember when Houston selected 19 year old DT Amobi Okoye in 2007 and he put up 5.5 sacks as a rookie...........a record for 20 year and younger DT's!  

 

He started for 4 years.......signed with Chicago as a free agent and flamed out at 24.

 

The common thread with Edmunds is that his best year as a playmaker was his rookie year.......and that he just leveled off and was adequate(and young) but didn't improve.

 

The AFC is pretty weak at MLB........which helps Edmunds with the pro bowl nods.........but even so, Edmunds is still graded on a curve with the assumption that there is a lot more there as a MLB.

 

If he had been a 3rd round pick at age 21-22 like a Preston Brown,  they'd be looking for an upgrade on Edmunds because he's not been instinctive and doesn't make game changing plays at MLB.

You perfectly summed it up. He's not instinctive at all nor does he make game changing plays. I think from here out McD will be leaning toward hybrid LB/SS types. Tremaine will never be a thumper or capable of selecting the right gap. Just stick him outside where he can at least be decent.

Edited April 15, 2021 by LABILLBACKER

[Marvlevydraftdaygenius]

If McDermott calls the defense Edmunds, is a star.  Frazier, calls it Edmunds and Milano look lost.

[BarleyNY]

15 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You perfectly summed it up. He's not instinctive at all nor does he make game changing plays. I think from here out McD will be leaning toward hybrid LB/SS types. Tremaine will never be a thumper or capable of selecting the right gap. Just stick him outside where he can at least be decent.

It’s startling to see how much he gets suckered into the wrong gap.  I have no idea why he won’t keep to his responsibilities.

 

The decision on his fifth year option is due next month.  I could see the Bills picking it up in hopes of seeing him improve (and I used to support that), but I no longer think they should.  You can’t have a MLB that’s this poor at the mental side of the game.  We can field a similarly effective MLB for a lot less than what we’d need to pay him.  I just don’t see how the Bills can pay him anything close to what’s expected on a second contract for the 16th overall pick.

Edited April 15, 2021 by BarleyNY

[BADOLBILZ]

17 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

You perfectly summed it up. He's not instinctive at all nor does he make game changing plays. I think from here out McD will be leaning toward hybrid LB/SS types. Tremaine will never be a thumper or capable of selecting the right gap. Just stick him outside where he can at least be decent.

 

I loved the pick.    Hated him being moved to MLB.   I'm not swayed by the fact that he gets 100+ tackles.    "Pedestrian Preston" Brown lead the NFL in tackles as the MLB in McD's defense in 2017.   The system provides a lot of opportunity.......which makes Edmunds' modest production after 6 years as a college and pro LB rather discouraging.

[BADOLBILZ]

6 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

It’s startling to see how much he gets suckered into the wrong gap.  I have. I idea why he won’t keep to his responsibilities.

 

The decision on his fifth year option is due next month.  I could see the Bills picking it up in hopes of seeing him improving (and I used to support that), but I no longer think they should.  You can’t have a MLB that’s this poor at the mental side of the game.  We can field a similarly effective MLB for a lot less than what we’d need to pay him.  I just don’t see how the Bills can pay him anything close to what’s expected on a second contract for the 16th overall pick.

 

 

It would be a mistake to pick it up.

 

The franchise tag is only like $2M more and then you don't have the full guarantee permanently fixed on your cap in the event that he suffers an injury and misses the 2023 season altogether.   

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

I loved the pick.    Hated him being moved to MLB.   I'm not swayed by the fact that he gets 100+ tackles.    "Pedestrian Preston" Brown lead the NFL in tackles as the MLB in McD's defense in 2017.   The system provides a lot of opportunity.......which makes Edmunds' modest production after 6 years as a college and pro LB rather discouraging.

I loved the pick too. He was so young and raw but he projected out amazing. Look at the level of improvement Josh has achieved in 3 years. But the same can't be said for TE. Maybe sliding him outside brings a different dynamic to his play? I just don't see him retained.

[LABILLBACKER]

29 minutes ago, RunJoshRun said:

I see Edmunds as the Mark Kelso of the current Bills defense.  You must know what I mean!!

Oh yes I do. Unless they move him outside and he thrives, I don't see McB honoring his 5th year.

[BillsfaninSB]

I think they pick up his 5th at a minimum and I’m okay with that.  Coaches seem to be really in love with TE.

 

If they draft that LB out of Tulsa then maybe not. 

[GunnerBill]

3 hours ago, LABILLBACKER said:

Oh yes I do. Unless they move him outside and he thrives, I don't see McB honoring his 5th year.

 

I'd be shocked if they don't. I think regardless of the fan perspective the regime is absolutely committed to Tremaine as their MLB. I may be wrong on that but reading between the lines of what they both said at the end of this season I think they are all in on him.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

I don't really know what to do with Edmunds. There is reason to trade him and possibly draft his replacement. Maybe a trade up with him and 30 as the piece. 

 

There's reason to sign him, mostly based on potential due to age. 

 

Edmunds isn't very instinctive. You would like your MLB to be the most instinctive player on the field. He's due big money over the next couple of years. Do you commit to a 5th year or try and replace him this year? 

 

His size and length for the position is elite. Even if out of position he takes up so much space. He's only turning 23. He's shown flashes of high level play. Consistency has been his issue but can be fixed. 

 

We're going to find out how the Bills feel about Edmunds in the next few weeks. 

39 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I'd be shocked if they don't. I think regardless of the fan perspective the regime is absolutely committed to Tremaine as their MLB. I may be wrong on that but reading between the lines of what they both said at the end of this season I think they are all in on him.

I'de be shocked also. Edmunds is their guy. He has elite talent and size. The hope is his mental catches up to the physical. 

Edited April 15, 2021 by Buffalo_Stampede

[BruceVilanch]

I'm into 2028 on madden and he is a 91 overall. Keep him.

[JaCrispy]

Trumaine Edmunds is the Tyrod Taylor of the defense...great ability, but just doesn’t seem to have it upstairs...shame...

[jletha]

3 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

I don't really know what to do with Edmunds. There is reason to trade him and possibly draft his replacement. Maybe a trade up with him and 30 as the piece. 

 

There's reason to sign him, mostly based on potential due to age. 

 

Edmunds isn't very instinctive. You would like your MLB to be the most instinctive player on the field. He's due big money over the next couple of years. Do you commit to a 5th year or try and replace him this year? 

 

His size and length for the position is elite. Even if out of position he takes up so much space. He's only turning 23. He's shown flashes of high level play. Consistency has been his issue but can be fixed. 

 

We're going to find out how the Bills feel about Edmunds in the next few weeks. 

I'de be shocked also. Edmunds is their guy. He has elite talent and size. The hope is his mental catches up to the physical. 

Unless Edmunds has a Josh Allen level leap in ability I dont think they will retain him. He is a fine player but not great. All the excuses from Cover1 and Nate Geary...why are we making excuses for a guy that is drafted that high and is a supposed athletic freak. Hes a good player but hes not all-pro great like some wanted. He is serviceable but not someone you can depend on all the time. Just look at this past season. if the scheme doesnt perfectly fit him or Milano gos down he disappears. Why would you want that guy as your defensive anchor. He should transcend scheme and injuries more often than not.

 

I think if he was a slam dunk to be our long term MLB we would not have signed Milano. I dont think Beane would wrap that much long term money into the LB position. So Milano getting the extension is a bit of a signal that he is ok letting Edmunds go, IMO.

 

Edited April 15, 2021 by jletha

[Governor]

I forgot that he was the 16th pick. OMG. No wonder they aren’t ready to admit that mistake yet.

[4BillsintheBurgh]

10 hours ago, SCBills said:

I’d like to see him rush the passer more.  I think he has a lot of potential in that role.  
 

He’s an enigma though... so young, but that doesn’t change the fact that we have to make a decision on whether to pay him soon. 

He had 1.5 career sacks in college. 1.5 as a player who had an even greater physical advantage than he does now. Looks to me like he rushes like he defends the run, just not explosive or determined. I will say if they did get him to attack more on the pass rush it might help the run defense too, just the whole mentality of attacking. 

[BuffaloBill]

The Bills have been bad against the run and at covering TE’s for years. As good as Frazier and McDerrmot appear to be at defense they need to look at themselves and figure out why the scheme does not work against these aspects of play.  Maybe Edmunds is central to this maybe he is not. Until the issue is solved, opposing teams will know the weakness of the Bills D and exploit it where they can.

[Governor]

On 2/4/2021 at 9:42 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Just curious, what do you think the Wonderlic score tells us about a guy's ability to understand and play football?

 

The tests I've seen look like a cross between an older SAT (vocabulary, math) and an intelligence test (logic, spatial reasoning).

 

I'm not sure how well they predict one's ability to play football.

They tell you if a person can “retain” information and that’s needed for someone who’s supposed to be the “QB of the defense.”

[Governor]

8 minutes ago, The Governor said:

They tell you if a person can “retain” information and that’s needed for someone who’s supposed to be the “QB of the defense.”

There was a commercial on NFL network a few weeks back that showed Edmunds just shoulder-bumping a RB that runs right by him. He didn’t even extend his arms to make the tackle.

 

If the guy is THAT injured, he shouldn’t be on the field. If people claim his regression is due to injury, they’re actually saying our coaching is bad. EDIT: I didn’t mean to quote myself. Lol.

Edited April 15, 2021 by The Governor