Run D

[thurst44]

49 minutes ago, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

OP asked who we don’t want to see in the playoffs. I don’t want to play any team who’s strength is the Bills weakness. 
 

Yes, the Bills are 12-3. Yes the defense is playing great right now. All that can change in the playoffs. I’d rather face a team that can become one dimensional (like Indy or Cleveland), than a team that can draw you into making mistakes and over pursue.

 

I think the Bills could beat the Ravens. It would be close and unpleasant, but I do think they could win. I’d rather see them play a team where their weaknesses wouldn’t be taken advantage of. 
 

And for the record, I’m a huge fan of Edmunds. 

Ha, sorry if I was combative (it wasn't intentional, but I should have read more carefully). FWIW, on the Edmunds tip, that was more of a frustration on every board I've read, but I did say that part was not necessarily about the two people posted here. Let's put it this way: I just now noticed your awesome screen name. Robb Riddick was my first favorite Bill. 

 

I guess part of my thoughts here are that trying to figure out who is best to play in the playoffs is ultimately pointless since football (and this D in particular) can be so unpredictable. As you, yourself, say, anything can happen in the playoffs. Then again, this is a Bills board and it's something to talk about, so your opinion is as valid as mine here. I tend to look at it as who would I least like to lose to b/c I expect to win. This time feels like they could beat anyone right now, but as the Ravens showed last year, and the Giants will probably show if they somehow get in (since they seem to win the SB every year they get in with a ridiculously bad record) fortunes can change with one bad day in the playoffs. 

 

Also, I had a different takeaway from the Ravens game. The defense did enough to win and stopped Lamar Jackson about as well as anyone did last year (they were a juggernaut at the time we played them and he was MVP for a reason), but their defense just never allowed us to get into rhyth. I still have nightmares about Judon -- it's why I wanted us to pick him up and I had him on my fantasy team. The Ravens really only scare me for illogical reasons (they looked unbeatable going into playoffs last year and fell flat, so this year when they look a hot mess much of the time, watch them have a run). 

[RyanC883]

3 hours ago, dbfla10 said:

Any one else worried that a team like Baltimore or the Browns will just run all over the Bills D and keep the ball out of Allens hands. Much like what Parcells did in super bowl 25?

 

yes, and people would be nuts not to worry about it.  It does not terrify me because  I think we have better personnel and coaching than then, but our interior D is too small/soft.   

[freddyjj]

1 hour ago, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

And the Bills still lost that game. It’s not just about the yards. It’s the types of runs, and the timing of them. We saw what the RPO did to the Bills in the Cardinals game. How many times in that game and last years Ravens game did we see Jackson keep the ball and get a chunk? Or extending a drive on 3rd and medium on a run up the gut? The Bills need to scheme to stop the run, and that can be deadly against RPO heavy offenses. 
 

Id much rather Indy or Cleveland, than the Ravens and Jackson. Even though those teams run the ball well, their QB’s are not as an immediate or a threat like Baltimore. 

Yeah I see your point.  Interesting that the Ravens did not get a Rushing TD that game - Lamar threw for 3.  Their longest run was 16  yds by Lamar.  Their passing game - especially since TE Hurst left is not as scary.   

 

Have you weighed Bills ability to get an early lead and make them pass?   Titans and Ravens are worst teams at playing from behind.  And against KC, CLE 2nd game and TEN Ravens D gave up an average of 35 ppg.  They could be had.

Edited December 29, 2020 by freddyjj

[dma0034]

Everyone who says they aren't worried should be. This is the only way a team will beat the Bills. The Bills can overcome any good rushing team if they score early and often so they have to abaddon the run. That said if the Ravens, Titans or Browns get a lead and the Bills can't get them off the field then it will slow the game down. Teams are going to have to go SB 25 Giants against the Bills to stop them. It's honestly the only way they lose imo. It's why I want the Bills to play the Dolphins or Colts in the 1st round then the Steelers than the Chiefs. I still think the Bills could pull it out versus one of those 3 teams though. Guess we'll all see

[RobbRiddicksTDLeap]

19 minutes ago, freddyjj said:

Yeah I see your point.  Interesting that the Ravens did not get a Rushing TD that game - Lamar threw for 3.  Their longest run was 16  yds by Lamar.  Their passing game - especially since TE Hurst left is not as scary.   

 

Have you weighed Bills ability to get an early lead and make them pass?   Titans and Ravens are worst teams at playing from behind.  And against KC, CLE 2nd game and TEN Ravens D gave up an average of 35 ppg.  They could be had.

This may sound like a cop out... I don’t find the Ravens to be a team that cares if they are forced into the pass. The Bills have a tremendous pass defense, but again, the RPO game is an absolute momentum killer. You could make a stop on 1st down, break up a pass on second, and now on 3rd and long, Jackson can break one off for 9 yards, and it’s 1st and 10. That sort of attrition can wear you out on the field. And before you know it, your 2 score lead is now a field goal loss. We’ve all seen that happen, and not just to the Bills. 
 

The league used to be about sustaining drives with consistent running, and throwing to keep the defense honest. Now it’s the complete opposite, on both sides of the ball. Timely and efficient running, can demoralize a defense, and force your offense out of its rhythm. I do like Daboll’s methodology of scoring fast and often and then grinding it out with the run game in the 4th. And let me add that, I do think the Bills can beat a team like the Ravens, I’d still rather play Indy or Cleveland. 

52 minutes ago, thurst44 said:

Ha, sorry if I was combative (it wasn't intentional, but I should have read more carefully). FWIW, on the Edmunds tip, that was more of a frustration on every board I've read, but I did say that part was not necessarily about the two people posted here. Let's put it this way: I just now noticed your awesome screen name. Robb Riddick was my first favorite Bill. 

 

I guess part of my thoughts here are that trying to figure out who is best to play in the playoffs is ultimately pointless since football (and this D in particular) can be so unpredictable. As you, yourself, say, anything can happen in the playoffs. Then again, this is a Bills board and it's something to talk about, so your opinion is as valid as mine here. I tend to look at it as who would I least like to lose to b/c I expect to win. This time feels like they could beat anyone right now, but as the Ravens showed last year, and the Giants will probably show if they somehow get in (since they seem to win the SB every year they get in with a ridiculously bad record) fortunes can change with one bad day in the playoffs. 

 

Also, I had a different takeaway from the Ravens game. The defense did enough to win and stopped Lamar Jackson about as well as anyone did last year (they were a juggernaut at the time we played them and he was MVP for a reason), but their defense just never allowed us to get into rhyth. I still have nightmares about Judon -- it's why I wanted us to pick him up and I had him on my fantasy team. The Ravens really only scare me for illogical reasons (they looked unbeatable going into playoffs last year and fell flat, so this year when they look a hot mess much of the time, watch them have a run). 

The Ravens defense is not anywhere near as intimidating as it has been in recent memory. But again, they are well coached and can turn it up if they have too. I do think that pass protection is absurdly good for Allen. It’s been unreal to see how much time he has in the pocket, and that alone could be the difference in sustaining a playoff run this season. 

[Victory Formation]

Run D is important but our pass D is far more important. An excellent day for a RB is 100 yards.. And excellent day for a QB is 400 yards.. Yes it gets annoying sometimes but at least we got some dogs in this secondary, and although I’m not thrilled at times with the way Edmunds tackles, he’s a huge asset in pass D, gotta be patient with him...clearly respected by his peers...second Pro Bowl..

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, RobbRiddicksTDLeap said:

This may sound like a cop out... I don’t find the Ravens to be a team that cares if they are forced into the pass. The Bills have a tremendous pass defense, but again, the RPO game is an absolute momentum killer. You could make a stop on 1st down, break up a pass on second, and now on 3rd and long, Jackson can break one off for 9 yards, and it’s 1st and 10. That sort of attrition can wear you out on the field. And before you know it, your 2 score lead is now a field goal loss. We’ve all seen that happen, and not just to the Bills. 
 

The league used to be about sustaining drives with consistent running, and throwing to keep the defense honest. Now it’s the complete opposite, on both sides of the ball. Timely and efficient running, can demoralize a defense, and force your offense out of its rhythm. I do like Daboll’s methodology of scoring fast and often and then grinding it out with the run game in the 4th. And let me add that, I do think the Bills can beat a team like the Ravens, I’d still rather play Indy or Cleveland. 

The Ravens defense is not anywhere near as intimidating as it has been in recent memory. But again, they are well coached and can turn it up if they have too. I do think that pass protection is absurdly good for Allen. It’s been unreal to see how much time he has in the pocket, and that alone could be the difference in sustaining a playoff run this season. 

Its kind of a double edged sword though because quite often you see a team get stopped for a loss or a minimal gain running the football on first down and they are not in a good position to pick up the first. Theres a pretty good reason you don't see many ground and pound teams anymore its pretty difficult to sustain a drive that way compared to the passing game nowadays where tight coverage is often flagged as PI and you have to cuddle the qb to avoid a roughing the passer call haha if the ravens struggle in the playoffs again I think theyre going to have to take a good hard look at their offensive scheme 

I think we're selling our run d short...Henry didn't do much against us in the titans game.  And against the chiefs we played a lot of cover 4 hoping Andy Reid would be too proud to run the football or something haha last night the pats had one nice drive running the football and scored 9 total points and had 200 ish total yards

[scuba guy]

Bugs 🐰 line

What's up doc

 

1) the drive that the pats had in the game last night there were some really bad holds by the oline commented in the game thread wwe still take down stuff very uncool of course it's the pats so it is ok

 

2) after that drive were they got all the rusj yards the bills changed the def ailment up may Frazier call don't know add than they could not run anymore maybe scoreaybe ref changes

Edited December 29, 2020 by scuba guy

[machine gun kelly]

8 hours ago, dbfla10 said:

Any one else worried that a team like Baltimore or the Browns will just run all over the Bills D and keep the ball out of Allens hands. Much like what Parcells did in super bowl 25?

Have you even looked at the NFL team stats.  The Bills are second in the league in passing behind the Chiefs, but barely at 283 yds./ game, vs. the Ravens 31st at 174 yds./game.  The Ravens are 178 yds./game in rushing #1, vs. the Bills are 110 yds./game 20th.  Last time I checked 352 total yds./game loses (Ravens) to 393 yds./game (Bills) and we faced and won more games to winning teams than anyone in the NFL.

 

The Ravens just like they did against the Chiefs in the beginning of the season will fall behind against us, and they will be forced to pass.  They are the weakest there.  If they run up three TD’s against us running, ok maybe, but I don’t see it happening.  The Broncos were ok on defense, the Steelers and 49ers, are two of these defenses in the league. The Ravens against weaker opponents are 9th in defense, and we are to some surprise 10th.

 

As Drago said, YOU WILL LOSE!  Meaning them, not you.

 

Something to think about.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

7 hours ago, zow2 said:

i recall when the Bills led the league in rushing for 2 straight seasons and didn't make the playoffs!  I'd rather have an offense that can break off some chunk plays and score at any moment.  

 

 

Those two Bills teams that lead the NFL in rushing also lead the NFL in chunk plays both years too.

 

The Ravens using the same style of offense lead the NFL in scoring by a lot last season.

 

It's about being able to pass the ball.

 

A lot is made of needing to run the ball in the playoffs...........but run defense is mostly about want-to and technique.......and in the playoffs teams elevate their effort so it's harder to consistently run the football in the playoffs.

 

 

 

 

 

[BeastMaster]

It's a concern, but I trust that they would be able to gameplan against that type of team to keep them in check and not allow it to take away from what we wanna do on offense.

 

It will put more pressure on the offense early on, so hopefully they can put some scoring drives together to control the game.

 

 

[WideNine]

Not particularly concerned with the Ravens as I feel they are still a bit one dimensional so the Bills can cheat towards playing the run and containing Lamar. That, and we can score on them.

 

KC is my concern as they have shown they can run on us, and we know they have receiving weapons... that may be more of a defensive challenge.

 

We have been able to cheat a bit with this defense because our offense has been good at taking a strong lead forcing teams out of their run game plans.

 

We don't have that true 1-tech and probably should be a draft priority. We've gotten by platooning our stoutest guys in that role and have had some success, but we do not have that dominant 4-man front that can get by in run defense without strong LB/S play filling the right gaps.

 

It comes down a lot to Edmunds. I don't have any idea why he seems to whiff on so many tackles...it's frustrating and his pathetic attempt at a tackle of grandpa Newton on that TD run torqued me.

 

Edmunds makes enough rodeo tackles - dragging guys down, but I rarely hear the pad pop of a good clean tackle from him...the kind that a player gets when he has taken the right angle and has the right form.

 

Watching Milano coming up field and sinking tackle after tackle last night just drove home that still missing skill/aspect of Edmunds game.

 

 

 

 

[Steptide]

If our run defense is soooo bad, why don't teams just run all game on us? Ya kc did it, but that's really it, and that was how long ago? If anything, the bills run d has greatly improved. Sure, they give up some yards, but they adjust pretty quick and shut it down. The bills get a lead so fast, it forces teams to have to throw. If a team wants to shut down the bills, the need to shut down the pass, which so far, teams haven't been able to do

[Nextmanup]

9 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

No.

 

Not worried about anything.

 

Other teams should be worried about us.

 

GO BILLS!

 

9 hours ago, Beast said:

No.

 

9 hours ago, DollaBills said:

Run Defense wont matter when the bills are up several TD's. 

One reason why I am so optimistic right now is because we are FINALLY one of the teams that looks like it is going to go out and get its points no matter what the opponent does, and if that opponent can't match, they lose.

 

This is how you win football in 2020.

 

I have faith we will get ours; the other teams need to worry about getting theirs. 

 

 

 

[Beast]

1 minute ago, Nextmanup said:

 

 

One reason why I am so optimistic right now is because we are FINALLY one of the teams that looks like it is going to go out and get its points no matter what the opponent does, and if that opponent can't match, they lose.

 

This is how you win football in 2020.

 

I have faith we will get ours; the other teams need to worry about getting theirs. 

 

 

 

 

100%

[CaptnCoke11]

Sick of reading all this “I’m scared of this team” crap.  The Bills are good.  I guess it’s hard for some people to grasp.  

[HOUSE]

Keeps me up at night for about 10 minutes

[Simon]

25 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 I don't have any idea why he seems to whiff on so many tackles...it's frustrating and his pathetic attempt at a tackle of grandpa Newton on that TD run torqued me.

 

Edmunds makes enough rodeo tackles - dragging guys down, but I rarely hear the pad pop of a good clean tackle from him...the kind that a player gets when he has taken the right angle and has the right form.

 

For all his athleticism, I think he still plays too high and stiff.

I'm not really convinced that will ever change and have questions about the wisdom of paying him to play that position.

After the bye Frazier was moving him around more and matching his responsibilities to his strengths. Last night they seemed to revert him to his role earlier in the season and he was awful. I'm wondering if the Bills are keeping some things in the bag these last couple weeks to limit film for playoff opponents.

[Solomon Grundy]

10 hours ago, Iverwig said:

No, the run defense is not dominant but it’s not as bad as it was earlier in the season. Edmunds is a problem but I feel better having Milano back and Klein stepping up his game. 

I wonder if Edmunds is really the problem. Edmunds was playing good football when Milano was out and Klein filled in. It looks to me that Milano is either getting washed out by linemen or over running his gap at times. 

[Big Turk]

10 hours ago, dbfla10 said:

Any one else worried that a team like Baltimore or the Browns will just run all over the Bills D and keep the ball out of Allens hands. Much like what Parcells did in super bowl 25?

 

Not really.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Nine points.... say it with me... NINE POINTS! 

[ganesh]

9 hours ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Being jerked around with scheduling all week.

Josh injured and in a shoulder brace.

Bad turnovers right out of the gate.

No Tre White.

 

The rematch wont be like the first game at all.

 

We were still in it on the last play when John Brown got out-muscled for a ball. That wont happen this year with Diggs and Davis.

Agreed.  And the throw from Josh will be much more better than the one last time to Brown.

[WideNine]

6 hours ago, Solomon Grundy said:

I wonder if Edmunds is really the problem. Edmunds was playing good football when Milano was out and Klein filled in. It looks to me that Milano is either getting washed out by linemen or over running his gap at times. 

 

When Klein was in he was making more of the downhill LOS tackles.

 

Milano was huge last night. 

 

Not questioning Edmund's heart, he played thru injury, just the instincts. It like we have a 6'5" 250lb nickle out there and he covers a lot of field for us, just don't ask him to shed a block, hit a gap, and tackle a player for a loss.

 

Just look at TFL stats. Edmunds, who rarely comes off the field has 3 total this year.

 

Milano, due to injury, missed games, or game plan, only has three games where he took over 80% of the snaps. Rams, Raiders, and NE last night and he has racked up 4.

 

It's a missing aspect of that big kid's game.

 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2020 by WideNine

[machine gun kelly]

7 hours ago, HOUSE said:

Keeps me up at night for about 10 minutes

Thats gas.

[nucci]

No

[Ethan in Cleveland]

19 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

I think hard running and play action teams like Tennessee and Cleveland are tougher match ups for Buffalo than some of the other possible opponents, sure. 

 

But worried about run D? In 2020? Nope. A team beating us by running has to play almost the perfect game in 2020. The Giants didn't just run in that Superbowl... they manhandled the Bills receivers in a way that would produce a flag fest in 2020.

 

Listen if a team can run for 150, suck up 40 minutes of time of possession, play a perfect bend not break defense that forces Buffalo to kick field goals on their drives, shorten the game and squeak out a win they will deserve to beat us and that is the NFL the talent gap is close enough that a "good" team playing a perfect game can beat a better team. But I am not going to sit here worrying about it. 

 

At the moment I am not worried about us playing anyone.

Good take. What you describe is what it will take to beat the Bills. If the Bills don’t settle for FGs, get a turnover or two, and don’t get completely manhandled at the LOS they should win against anyone 

[Magox]

The Patriots and Denver had a few nice chunk yardage plays on the ground but it wasn’t the sort of consistent 5-10 yard runs that continued to move the chains or leave Them in manageable third down situations. 
 

The run defense was fine and the pass defense was top notch.  The defense is playing really good complimentary football with the offense.

[WideNine]

On 12/29/2020 at 5:09 PM, Steptide said:

If our run defense is soooo bad, why don't teams just run all game on us? Ya kc did it, but that's really it, and that was how long ago? If anything, the bills run d has greatly improved. Sure, they give up some yards, but they adjust pretty quick and shut it down. The bills get a lead so fast, it forces teams to have to throw. If a team wants to shut down the bills, the need to shut down the pass, which so far, teams haven't been able to do

 

No need for exaggeration when we are looking at match ups. The thread was looking at teams that would cause us issues and our biggest defensive issue is rush defense. This is just a known thing. We are 28th overall for the year in yards/attempt. That ain't great, and just because we win because we can leap out in front of teams and they have to pretty much give up on running the ball, does not mean that the defensive gap is not there.

 

As you point out, teams really can't run all over us unless they can:

1. Consistently run. Run in spurts on us is one thing, consistently churn out first downs running on us is a taller order.
2. Keep pace with or slow down Allen and our offence. KC did it, and the Titans to a degree as they also had a lot of success attacking with passes across the middle where we were hurting at LB.

That is the only reason why I singled out those two AFC teams as (IMO) the toughest opponents matchup-wise for this team. I still like our odds, but they present the biggest challenges.

 

 

 

[Big Turk]

On 12/29/2020 at 2:56 PM, dma0034 said:

Everyone who says they aren't worried should be. This is the only way a team will beat the Bills. The Bills can overcome any good rushing team if they score early and often so they have to abaddon the run. That said if the Ravens, Titans or Browns get a lead and the Bills can't get them off the field then it will slow the game down. Teams are going to have to go SB 25 Giants against the Bills to stop them. It's honestly the only way they lose imo. It's why I want the Bills to play the Dolphins or Colts in the 1st round then the Steelers than the Chiefs. I still think the Bills could pull it out versus one of those 3 teams though. Guess we'll all see

 

If we wanted to use resources to stop the run we would. We use those resources to stop the pass. Key point to understand.

 

If they want to run go ahead...they aren't going to be able to score enough to keep up. Eventually they will have to start throwing.

Edited January 1, 2021 by Big Turk

[thronethinker]

Last team to run the ball all over us was KC and the D was beat up at that time. The Team has adjusted. 

[Starr Almighty]

I think the Bills play the Browns game 1 and then the Titans game 2

[WideNine]

23 hours ago, thronethinker said:

Last team to run the ball all over us was KC and the D was beat up at that time. The Team has adjusted. 

 

A bit early to know what that game would look like.

 

I have less faith in our defense consistently stopping the run than I do in Allen and the offense being able to score and pressure those teams better in a rematch.

 

If folks recall the Titans were the first team to really slow down our offense that started getting red-hot. They threw away the cover-0 pressure packages prior teams were using and Allen and Daboll were feasting off of and went 4-man rush (a few 5) and 2-3 deep zone looks. Allen pressed, did not know where to go with the ball, and had one of his lower QBR outings.

 

In a copy-cat league Allen was force-fed zone defenses of every variety every game after that and he also saw zone/man with robber concepts against the Cards. What did he do?

 

He got better. He recognizes the zone looks, where the soft spots are, and he and Daboll have been putting on a clinic since.

 

I don't see teams that had success against him AND our defense (KC and Titans), having the same success against our offense in a rematch.

 

 

 

Edited January 2, 2021 by WideNine

[Mat68]

On 12/29/2020 at 10:49 AM, dbfla10 said:

Any one else worried that a team like Baltimore or the Browns will just run all over the Bills D and keep the ball out of Allens hands. Much like what Parcells did in super bowl 25?

Mcdermott is pretty good at making teams win left handed.  Last year Baltimore was much hotter and the defense handled there offense.  This year Buffalo matches up much better vs their defense.  Cleveland has a rough secondary and I think Buffalo takes advatage of them.  

[HappyDays]

On 12/29/2020 at 2:56 PM, dma0034 said:

It's why I want the Bills to play the Dolphins or Colts in the 1st round then the Steelers than the Chiefs.

 

More likely than not we'll have to beat Baltimore or Tennessee on our way to the Super Bowl. The ideal scenario is they play each other on wildcard weekend and then the winner plays KC in the divisional round. But we'll probably have to beat at least one of them plus the Chiefs to get to the Super Bowl.

[CEN-CAL17]

I would still love to see Ed Oliver at DE on obvious run downs.

 

Hughes, Butler, Harrison, Oliver

 

       Milano, Edmunds, Klein