Jordan Phillips earns start; Oliver only plays 18 def snaps vs Redskins

[BringBackOrton]

11 minutes ago, John from Riverside said:

So let Me see his ceiling is the best DT in the league and his floor is less than thatMe see his ceiling is the best DT in the league and his floor is less than that what exactly is the problem here he is being played outplayed buy a veteran who is Str8 Ballin and he is a rookie what exactly is the problem here he is being played outplayed buy a veteran who is Str8 Ballin and he is a rookie

Someone check on John!

[Reader]

I know this thread is about Oliver, but I want to tangent real quick. Was D. Johnson inactive yesterday? It looks like he had no snaps.

[YoloinOhio]

 

5 minutes ago, Reader said:

I know this thread is about Oliver, but I want to tangent real quick. Was D. Johnson inactive yesterday? It looks like he had no snaps.

He was active 

[GoBills808]

4 hours ago, Happy Gilmore said:

 

FIFY.  I'd like to see more of Vincent Taylor and less of Star.

 

Weren't you the one claiming that Star had been benched in the second half?

[DCofNC]

6 hours ago, buffaloboyinATL said:

Agreed. The reason Oliver's snaps were limited is because the Skins were committed to running the ball and Phillips is better at run stuffing right now. I believe Oliver will continue to progress and have a better all around game soon enough. I am looking forward to the day he "breaks out". I hope it is one of the next couple of games, but if not, I am predicting it will be on Thanksgiving day.  He will be highly motivated to show up big in Texas and the added bonus of a National game will be what it takes too have his first "signature" game.

Yeah, except the opposite is actually true.  Oliver has done a good job anchoring and taking up blocker and Phillips has been exploding into the back field and either making big plays or unfortunately, opening running lanes.

 

Right now your issue is this, Star is actually easier to defend with 1 guy than 2, he starts moving and has poor body control, he can be flushed right out of the way with his own momentum.  Phillips is constantly trying to go up field and plays too high to anchor, gets pushed out of lanes too easily. The Best bet at NT actually appears to be Oliver, even though its a huge waste of talent, just like making Dareus a NT.   Then there's Edmunds... they need to move him outside, thats what his skill set is perfect for and he honestly sucks inside, I know I'll be blasted for it, but they should end it, put him where he can have an impact.  He's consistently picking the wrong gaps and getting blown up by linemen when they get to him, he's long and rangy, but not built to engage and shed.  I dont know who is on the roster that could step in and take his roll, but they need to look at it.  He and Milano have a lot of the same skills and deficiencies, I think they need to move him.   They talked about a guy with Lawrence Taylor like potential and hes done exaclty nothing thus far, either they were SO WRONG or they need to let him play his better position.

[Doc]

Good for Jordan.  Now, what was the change they made at halftime to limit AP to 7 yards on 8 carries?

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

3 hours ago, Real McCoy said:

Nahh slipped to the 2nd rd.  Numerous people (myself included) here would have taken him in the 1st or 2nd rd. 

 

I wouldn't mind seeing Oliver rotate through the line and play some DE with his speed he might really excel opposite of Hughes. His actual size is better suited for the position. 

 

 

sucks that Ed is being branded a "bust" already but then again, it is the "Bills Posters Short Porch Gang".....as if I give a rat's azz......he is a developing youngster.....Ed "Too Small" Oliver has started 8 games which is an "eternity" for some astute(COUGH) posters out there to earn a "bust" label....go figure....man I'd love to be drafted here with this "welcoming committee"......SMH......

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Some here are more educated in football than me, so help me out on this.  The impression I had between halves yesterday is that the front 7 was more reading and reacting in the first half, whereas in the second half they were attacking the LOS and forcing plays.    Is that correct?

Felt more like fitting their gaps and tackling better.  

[DrDawkinstein]

6 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Some here are more educated in football than me, so help me out on this.  The impression I had between halves yesterday is that the front 7 was more reading and reacting in the first half, whereas in the second half they were attacking the LOS and forcing plays.    Is that correct?

 

5 minutes ago, dneveu said:

Felt more like fitting their gaps and tackling better.  

 

Micah Hyde was just on S&B and that is exactly what he said. No major changes, just filling gaps better and not over-running.

[PlayoffsPlease]

How are other top 10 picks faring in terms of overall impact this year? 

[Socal-805]

8 hours ago, Coach Tuesday said:

On the 'Skins' first three-and-out, the third-down incompletion was caused by Oliver, who crushed the pocket from the middle.  I was kind of surprised we didn't see him much for the rest of the game but it's not because he's playing badly - he's playing well.  IMO Oliver played the run much better than Phillips did against the Eagles.

 

 

No one played the run well against the Eagles.

 

 

[Happy]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

Weren't you the one claiming that Star had been benched in the second half?

 

Yeah.  Saw a lot more of #96 and #97 more  so than #98 in the second half.

[Real McClappy]

45 minutes ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

sucks that Ed is being branded a "bust" already but then again, it is the "Bills Posters Short Porch Gang".....as if I give a rat's azz......he is a developing youngster.....Ed "Too Small" Oliver has started 8 games which is an "eternity" for some astute(COUGH) posters out there to earn a "bust" label....go figure....man I'd love to be drafted here with this "welcoming committee"......SMH......

I have no issues with the pick of Oliver and still think he's just so raw and will develop. Right now though Jordan deserves the spot as our feature DT, like Devin deserves to be the featured RB in our system. I'd much rather see the Bills plug him somewhere on this line, he has a burst/quickness you can't teach. I really don't want to see him only getting 20% of D snaps. He needs to play now, on the end or center I can careless. Hell throw him at LB, the dude has that kind of talent. 

 

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by Real McCoy

[Reed83HOF]

 

[Coach Tuesday]

1 minute ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

 

Yup and there were 2-3 more plays like that on Oliver's 18 snaps.  The narrative out there is just wrong.

[vincec]

8 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

Yes, Oliver has played well from what I can tell. But tough to sit Phillips. It’s a good rotation. I think the 18 snaps from Oliver was because skins didn’t pass much. 

Based on their relative pass rushing production I don't think Washington passing more would have impacted the rotation.

[Reed83HOF]

A pretty good refresher for people:

 

https://thedraftnetwork.com/articles/prospect-battle-royale-ed-oliver-vs-quinnen-williams

 

Paraphrasing:

Production

If this battle were fought purely on paper, Oliver would win in a landslide. The man already has 13.5 tackles for loss and three sacks this season, pushing his three-year career totals to 52 tackles for loss and 13.5 sacks in 31 games. And to be honest, those numbers don't even do his performances justice.

 

Get Off/Burst

Even from a square stance playing in the A-gaps, one of Oliver's biggest strengths in his first step. He has elite explosiveness off the ball coming from his twitched-up lower half, threatening his opponent directly off the ball. This may be the hardest trait for certain offensive linemen to overcome 1v1, because if you can't match Oliver athletically, you need to be a technical wizard to slow him down.

Edge: Oliver

 

Leverage/Pad Level

 

Again, you won't find a weakness here from either player. It might be the biggest strength of both of their games, and the most natural. Oliver is 6-foot-1 and Williams is listed 6-foot-3, and both play with that kind of built-in leverage that make them impossible to supplant despite not being the biggest defensive tackles.

 

They also get into your pads right off of the snap. There is no mistaking who is in control with either of these players on any given snap. Both of them will physically take you places you don't want to go if you're an opposing offensive lineman. Power comes from leverage and hand placement, not your listed weight on the roster.

 

Anyone who tells you "Ed Oliver wins more with quickness and athletic ability than raw power" is being lazy and hasn't actually watched him. The dude is a complete freight train and has physically manhandled the AAC for three years. Double teams don't even help, as Oliver is too low and anchored to the ground for opponents to find any good surface area to displace him.

 

Edge: Push. There's no way you can dock either player in this category.

 

Hand Usage

With all due respect to Ed Oliver, this is Quinnen Williams' area of expertise. The redshirt sophomore has truly rare hand usage, not only as a run defender, which we've already witnessed in the clip above, but also as a pass rusher. The list of collegiate interior defensive linemen that I've ever scouted with his hand usage is extremely short.

 

Oliver's hand usage, especially in the run game, is exceptional. He doesn't have the longest arms, but he knows how to use them to his advantage to stay clean and shed blockers. But as a pass rusher, one of his biggest concerns is that he relies more on his natural athleticism than having a bevy of moves to get to the quarterback.

 

Edge: Williams

 

Secondary Traits

I break the secondary traits up into four categories: Rush Moves, Mental Processing, Range and Stack-Shed (ability to get off blocks).

Rush Moves goes to Williams, as I already mentioned. Oliver has flashed a spin and some other techniques at times, but too often when his first move is stopped he doesn't have a secondary plan of attack. That will be one of the key areas for him to improve in the NFL, and one of the biggest differences between he and Aaron Donald, a player who he is often compared to, as prospects.

 

If Oliver develops a more consistent plan of attack and learns to beat opponents in a variety of ways, look out. He might be the most athletic defensive tackle we've ever scouted, with incredible range, change-of-direction and ability to play in space. Oliver has a linebacker's movement skills in a defensive tackle's body.

 

I love Quinnen Williams and think he is clearly a great athlete for his position, but he ain't doing that. Nobody is. Oliver takes the Range category with ease.

 

I'll give Mental Processing and Stack-Shed to Williams, while recognizing that Oliver is good in the first area and excellent in the second. The most surprising thing to me about Williams' game is how good he is at finding the football while engaged at the line of scrimmage. Typically that takes awhile to develop, but he is just so aware of everything a defensive lineman should be aware of - depth from the line of scrimmage, misdirection tendencies, traps, quarterback movement - on any given snap.

 

Size/Level of Competition

If there is an area of understandable concern for Oliver, it is his size and level of competition. There is very little he can do about either, outside of rewinding time and choosing to go somewhere other than Houston. I've been told Oliver's weight is between 270-275 pounds, which would make him the lightest full-time interior defensive lineman in the NFL.

 

There is no doubt that he is small for his position (smaller than Donald, who was 285) and that given that size, his level of competition would come into question as a result. The concerns are valid and should be an important part of his evaluation, but I think his traits and tape are just overwhelming. There is a small amount of risk with Oliver given the projection to a totally different level of football, especially if he weighs in lighter than expected, but it's a risk I'll take in the top five picks of the draft. His ceiling is that high

 

The Verdict

Right now, Oliver remains on top of my interior defensive line rankings, but this one is going to come down to the wire. I haven't run either player through my formal grading scale yet, and Combine testing will also play a big role in what will likely be very similar film grades.

 

Essentially, Williams is the more pro-ready player due to his technique and mental processing, while Oliver is still outstanding in both of those areas while also being the superior athlete. Yet Williams is still an impressive athlete with all the physical traits you could really want at the position. There simply isn't much downside to either player.

 

Are you catching on yet? Both of these guys are incredible, and while one will need to be ranked above the other before it is all said and done, the duo should be under the blue chip section of every draft board. The draft process always reveals a few things we didn't notice before, but right now Oliver's ceiling is still alluring enough for me to bet on that upside. Barely. Maybe. By a hair? Man. I don't know.

1 minute ago, Coach Tuesday said:

 

Yup and there were 2-3 more plays like that on Oliver's 18 snaps.  The narrative out there is just wrong.

He's a rookie, has not had a full nfl offseason conditioning program, is now playing against the best players in the world (on a team that does not have a lot of sacks the last 2 years), drafted as an interior pass rusher who relied on his strength and power in college and now has to get better with his hands and other techniques to win consistently against top tier ILmen.

 

Right now Phillips is playing great, he should get more playing time. I have been down on Ford as an LT, you have to balance winning and getting reps, I'm glad our best players are playing right now; the development will come along. This is way to soon to say bust or not

[Reed83HOF]

 

[oldmanfan]

Watching the first half now.  Only one long run I’ve seen with him on the field; got excellent penetration but the whole D slanted right and Peterson cut back against pursuit.

[EmotionallyUnstable]

33 minutes ago, Reed83HOF said:

 

FWIW, this is what @ScottLaw is referring to with Edmunds. 
 

His hesitation here is a killer. The BACKSIDE GUARD was able to make the block here because he’s playing too much on his heels and not playing downhill quick enough. IMO he should have ran across and THROUGH THAT guard’s face. You see Milano scraping (he hesitates too and is late to the play) and had Edmunds gotten across the face of the Guard, I would imagine he’d be in position to close that gap down, possibly allowing Milano the time to get there. 
 

McD’s one gap defense only works if everyone truly honors their gap. The hesitation comes from lack of trust. In this scenario, had both (or either) Edmunds and Milano  been down hill and more decisive, I think this dead at the LOS. 
 

this is just one example, but the 250 lb MLB has a tendency to play too often like a 150 lb player.

[GoBills808]

2 minutes ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

FWIW, this is what @ScottLaw is referring to with Edmunds. 
 

His hesitation here is a killer. The BACKSIDE GUARD was able to make the block here because he’s playing too much on his heels and not playing downhill quick enough. IMO he should have ran across and THROUGH THAT guard’s face. You see Milano scraping (he hesitates too and is late to the play) and had Edmunds gotten across the face of the Guard, I would imagine he’d be in position to close that gap down, possibly allowing Milano the time to get there. 
 

McD’s one gap defense only works if everyone truly honors their gap. The hesitation comes from lack of trust. In this scenario, had both (or either) Edmunds and Milano  been down hill and more decisive, I think this dead at the LOS. 
 

this is just one example, but the 250 lb MLB has a tendency to play too often like a 150 lb player.

You can see it in his feet. He's so quick and light, like a dancer. Makes him really special in coverage and moving laterally. He needs to learn when to hammer those steps down and present himself downhill on run gapping. 

 

For me, he's still very green and has a ton of responsibility for reads and it causes him to overthink. There's really no reason here to hesitate, that's clearly his gap and he needs to stick his shoulder inside through the block and fill (fwiw he sheds almost immediately while Alexander gets wiped out). I think he gets caught on the FB misdirection and does that little stutterstep midstride...loses all power but he's long enough to get off the block pretty quickly.

 

[Punching Bag]

5 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

I some times have to laugh when it comes to fans perceptions and memories.

Kyle Williams did not set the league on fire as a rookie, in fact he didn't have a sack until halfway thru his 2nd season.

Oliver still has a lot of learning and growing to do but to even talk about bust after 8 games is just reactionary.

 

What are we going to do with these people Augie?  LOL

 

Some are just Boca Loco and all you can do is slip some cyanide into their morning bitter.

[HappyDays]

Oliver is somewhat underrated on this board, Phillips is somewhat overrated. Phillips is better at finishing plays in the pass rush but personally I think Oliver is better against the run and not much worse against the pass.

[Punching Bag]

1 hour ago, Real McCoy said:

I have no issues with the pick of Oliver and still think he's just so raw and will develop. Right now though Jordan deserves the spot as our feature DT, like Devin deserves to be the featured RB in our system. I'd much rather see the Bills plug him somewhere on this line, he has a burst/quickness you can't teach. I really don't want to see him only getting 20% of D snaps. He needs to play now, on the end or center I can careless. Hell throw him at LB, the dude has that kind of talent. 

 

 

 

Certainly he has some potential as LB especially in goal line situations.

[Royale with Cheese]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

Dude what the ***** are you talking about??

 

I rewatch each games once or twice throughout the week. I rewatched the game last night. I’m guessing his snaps aren’t decreasing because they don’t have a better option behind him..... same goes for Edmunds. 

I don’t understand how you’re not picking this up.  Wait I do....because you’re evading the question.

[Luka]

Oliver is playing hero ball from the DT position. He is focused on making big plays, splash plays. He's a young guy who is going to have to focus more on his technique and assignments than he did in college.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

 

Some are just Boca Loco and all you can do is slip some cyanide into their morning bitter.

 

Some might say a bit of an extreme measure BUT it does have many useful applications!

[T master]

Phillips has been playing up to his draft position & i hope Beane signs him he'll be a really good player for the Bills for a few years & when Harry gets back the inside of the D line will be strong for a while to come !!

 

[Paulus]

Lmao... Time to replace Star with Oliver, tbh.

[vincec]

This thread is crazy. Everyone has watched the film multiple times and, depending on what post or tweet you read, they've found that:

 

Oliver and Lotoulelei are the best DTs on the team OR they are the worst DTs on the team;

Oliver is a pass rushing specialist who struggles against the run OR he is a run defense specialist who is struggling vs the pass;

Oliver is playing better each week and is just unlucky to be behind Phillips OR he is getting worse each week and being phased out of defensive rotation; and

Oliver is a major bust OR he is on the precipice of greatness.

Edited November 5, 2019 by vincec

[Big Blitz]

Scherff might be one of the 3 best Guards in the league.  

 

Any clips of our DTs against him I'd love to see.  

[Big Blitz]

6 hours ago, EmotionallyUnstable said:

FWIW, this is what @ScottLaw is referring to with Edmunds. 
 

His hesitation here is a killer. The BACKSIDE GUARD was able to make the block here because he’s playing too much on his heels and not playing downhill quick enough. IMO he should have ran across and THROUGH THAT guard’s face. You see Milano scraping (he hesitates too and is late to the play) and had Edmunds gotten across the face of the Guard, I would imagine he’d be in position to close that gap down, possibly allowing Milano the time to get there. 
 

McD’s one gap defense only works if everyone truly honors their gap. The hesitation comes from lack of trust. In this scenario, had both (or either) Edmunds and Milano  been down hill and more decisive, I think this dead at the LOS. 
 

this is just one example, but the 250 lb MLB has a tendency to play too often like a 150 lb player.

 

 

All I see is Star looking awful.

[John from Riverside]

7 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Dude what the ***** are you talking about??

 

I rewatch each games once or twice throughout the week. I rewatched the game last night. I’m guessing his snaps aren’t decreasing because they don’t have a better option behind him..... same goes for Edmunds. 

Then your not objectively watching the film

5 hours ago, Luka said:

Oliver is playing hero ball from the DT position. He is focused on making big plays, splash plays. He's a young guy who is going to have to focus more on his technique and assignments than he did in college.

What exactly do you think his assignment is?

[Buffalo Barbarian]

Should have been all along, don't understand why Oliver got start over Phillips who, has been our best Dlineman .

 

 

 

 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Luka]

6 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Then your not objectively watching the film

What exactly do you think his assignment is?

 

Let me call Fraizer real quick, we'll go over some of the calls on the all 22, I'll get back to you... ?

 

You can clearly see on a lot of plays that Oliver is clearly more concerned with beating his man directly into the backfield. On one of Adrian's
big runs, Oliver was pushing his man back instead of getting off the block and filling the gap. You see him turn and reach for AP as he realizes he's running past him. Reduction in snaps pretty much supports the fact that while a freak athlete, he needs to be more disciplined in his assignments.
 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

Let me call Fraizer real quick, we'll go over some of the calls on the all 22, I'll get back to you... ?

 

You can clearly see on a lot of plays that Oliver is clearly more concerned with beating his man directly into the backfield. On one of Adrian's
big runs, Oliver was pushing his man back instead of getting off the block and filling the gap. You see him turn and reach for AP as he realizes he's running past him. Reduction in snaps pretty much supports the fact that while a freak athlete, he needs to be more disciplined in his assignments.
 

I think this is pretty accurate.  I rewatched the second half last night, and thee are a few things to keep in mind with the hysteria surrounding the run game defense in the first half.  One, it was really 4 plays that Peterson got loose on.  Second, it is Adrian Peterson after all.  Third, I don't pretend to know which gaps different guys are supposed to occupy and so on.  But there were some things Is aw with the uneducated eye.  One is that Star for the most part occupied blockers.  Sometimes he got pushed back a bit more than you'd want a stout DT to have happen though.  Another was that Phillips also got handled more than I thought originally.  Oliver?  His quickness was a disadvantage at times; on the one run where Peterson got about 20 yards cutting back against the pursuit, Oliver was 5 yards into the backfield and took himself out of the play.  Other times he held position but was not able to disengage from the blocker to make a play.  He'll have to work on that.

 

Moose Johnson made a point that the Bills in general the first half weren't disengaging from blockers to make plays.  That to me speaks to a physical thing, but McD and staff who know a lot more obviously think it's a scheme thing, and after they changed it up second half it was obviously effective.  I still think that line play ultimately comes down to winning physical battles (like to 3rd down play where Gore got stuffed right before Josh scored?  Morse got shoved straight back, got completely whipped physically).  I'd like to see our defenders win more physical battles up front.

[DCofNC]

12 hours ago, Luka said:

Oliver is playing hero ball from the DT position. He is focused on making big plays, splash plays. He's a young guy who is going to have to focus more on his technique and assignments than he did in college.

No, thats really more Phillips.  I haven't seen Oliver llay "hero ball" at all.  Phillips is constantly up the field and it can cost him, Oliver quite frequently ties up 2 blockers while Star gets mauled by one.. which interestingly is thebreal problem with Star, if he's doubled, he's a beast, man him up and he has no balance to fight it.

[John from Riverside]

56 minutes ago, Luka said:

 

Let me call Fraizer real quick, we'll go over some of the calls on the all 22, I'll get back to you... ?

 

You can clearly see on a lot of plays that Oliver is clearly more concerned with beating his man directly into the backfield. On one of Adrian's
big runs, Oliver was pushing his man back instead of getting off the block and filling the gap. You see him turn and reach for AP as he realizes he's running past him. Reduction in snaps pretty much supports the fact that while a freak athlete, he needs to be more disciplined in his assignments.
 

Once again what do you think a 3 tech dt does in this defense?

[Luka]

3 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Once again what do you think a 3 tech dt does in this defense?

 

Quote

Oliver was pushing his man back instead of getting off the block and filling the gap

 

The bigger question is, what the hell do you think he's supposed to be doing? I love people like you. You ask a question, it gets answered so you ask the same question again. Gap discipline. The coaches have said it, it's a problem. I've even given you an example but please, by all means, ask the same question again. When you get cut back to 18 snaps, I'm guessing you aren't fulfilling your assignments.