When is Allen going to have "that game", and do you care?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 minutes ago, MR8 said:

Lol yeah comparing a guy to a future HOFer I totally have an agenda lol...

 

That's neither what I said, nor, I think, a reasonable interpretation of what I said.  You complained because I objected to your lower end comparator but not your higher, and then generalized that.  This is what you said: " I'll be honest people on here love a good comparison butt jump on one that says he'll be bad... You didn't argue that he isn't Rodgers despite the insanely large disparity in this two at this point but rather chose to go after my bottom end comparison"

 

People respond to points that interest them.  To generalize to "people on here" and complain about points someone didn't argue - yeah, Agenda

 

2 minutes ago, MR8 said:

Funny how my comparison of what a guy could be AT WORST is "inept" when you don't even know the scouting on the guy I'm comparing to. 

 

Why should I know his pre-draft NFL scouting report?  I know what he did with the Bills.  I'm also not interested in debating about whether or not he got a "raw shake".  At that point we're getting theoretical - there isn't exactly a public record or stat of "how QB was treated by coaches".  You liked Losman and thought he got a raw deal.  So Noted. 

 

I didn't think as much of him from what I saw.  Whether he could have developed better if treated differently is lost in the swirling sands of time at this juncture.  But it's not a point I'm interested to debate.

 

The point is, Allen's productivity as a passer and overall as a QB has already surpassed Losman - and Manuel.

 

2 minutes ago, MR8 said:

Allen thank GOD has been much better managed to TRY to protect him from himself and give him chances to succeed.

 

Without an interest in debating relative management of a long-gone QB, there are surely aspects of Allen's development which have not been optimally managed: having a QB coach with no experience as a QB coach or QB last year; starting the season last year with no veteran presence in the QB room; the poor quality of the OL and WR corps last year

 

2 minutes ago, MR8 said:

Not saying Losman would've been a god, but he was terribly managed but in their prime I'd take Losman over Bortles or EJ any day. So you, in my estimation are being more insulting than I am to Allen......Calling Allen Bortles in any way is a far worse insult in my estimation than calling him JP or EJ.

 

That's chill.  I think more of Bortles than you do.  That's what my eyes tell me.  It's also what Bortles' record as a QB in the league tells me...neither JP nor EJ came anywhere close to the level of play Bortles put up in his 2nd season as a QB, and while he fell off a bit after that and his coach/GM understandably decided he wasn't their long term solution, the fact is he played adequately in the league for several years, including well enough to win 2 playoff games and put up nearly 300 yds passing and 64% completions on the way to a loss in NE.  But we can disagree on that.

 

11 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

It was actually 28 games and his numbers were pretty pedestrian. He threw less than 1 TD per start as a sophomore. He was a game manager at best. If you watched the games, (I did) he lived off checkdowns and quick throws. 

 

Its okay though. It’s irrelevant to the larger point, but you know that. 

 

There's a difference between "pedestrian" and SUCKS and I think you know that. 

And that's relevant to the question of whether you're here for honest discussion or just stirring the pot.

[LSHMEAB]

1 hour ago, DuckyBoys said:

What good is drafting a qb next year?  Allen needs every snap  By the end of next season it should be apparent what he is or isnt  Its not like the Bills cant pass the football and are running 40 times a game

I don't understand this question my man. Who is talking about drafting a QB next year? Who is talking about cutting bait NOW? There's an honest debate to be had about his progression as a QB and what that portends for the future. As skeptical as some of us may be, I think everyone understands he deserves quite a bit more time before any of those types of decisions are entertained.

 

He's done more than enough to prove he's got a chance to be the real deal and he's done some things that make you question whether or not he'll ever be able to be THE MAN. 

 

That's where we're at right now. 

[Chandler#81]

1 hour ago, BringBackOrton said:

Scoreboard.

Bye, Felicia.

[GreggTX]

He could have that game next week or never. Nobody knows, but you are correct. He needs to reach that level if we are going to win the SB and let's get real. Winning the SB is what it's all about. It seems some folks have forgotten that.

[Kelly the Dog]

QBs with 300 yard games have a losing record this year. 

 

Edit: that stat is wrong as Bangarang pointed out. It's 32-29. Last year at this point it was 32-33.  

Edited October 21, 2019 by Kelly the Dog

[Bangarang]

12 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

QBs with 300 yard games have a losing record this year. 

not by my count. They’re 32-29-2

 

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/300-yard-passing.html

[Nelius]

I think it's a little skewed to not count his rushing stats in this 300 yard pipe dream as well. He put up 234 combined yards today, and 292 last week. He's averaging 252 or so combined yards per game this year so he's a lot closer to this ideal QB than a lot of people are giving him credit for in my opinion. Dilfer didn't put up 250+ and TDs on the ground regularly. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Nelius

[Kelly the Dog]

17 minutes ago, Bangarang said:

not by my count. They’re 32-29-2

 

https://www.footballdb.com/stats/300-yard-passing.html

Thank for the link. I saw that stat a week or so ago and just repeated it, but didn't see the actual stats/games. It surely doesn't really show it to be an indicator of wins. Just for the hell of it I went back and looked at the first six games of last year and it was 32-33. 

Edited October 21, 2019 by Kelly the Dog

[Buffalo716]

All the people who complain about his downfield accuracy are the same people who said he had no accuracy on short throws either ... And he has came around this year on that

 

You can't fix everything in 1 year..  Josh obviously spent ALOT of time on his short and intermediate game and his deep game has taken a back seat

 

I'm 100% willing to see how he adjusts his deep ball after another off-season, I believe he will find the right touch...

 

This stuff doesn't come overnight

[SJDK]

We should have beat up the dolphins on the ground a lot more. We have to use Singletary a lot more. That softens up a defense. We could have done that this week.

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

Probably when we look up and see the clock tick zero and the Bills have moved onto the AFC Championship game. And Allen will have posted a modest 265 2TD's 1INT 35 yards rushing line.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 minutes ago, SJDK said:

We should have beat up the dolphins on the ground a lot more. We have to use Singletary a lot more. That softens up a defense. We could have done that this week.

 

I posted this in the Joe B article thread I started but I'll put it here too.

 

It's not just the run game for Singletary.  On a handful of plays in the first half, he was clearly Josh Allen's checkdown option and he was open like a 7-11.

On several plays where Josh had time but didn't like what he saw downfield and tucked-n-trucked or checked down to a TE (Lee Smith!) Singletary was still available.

 

I don't know what the deal was - was he wearing an invisibility cloak?  was he there as a decoy because they doubted his ability to gain YAC?  He shouldn't have been out there if so.  or was Josh taking a step back and reverting to last year's Josh where he wouldn't take the checkdown to McCoy but would tuck it and run instead?

 

Hopefully they will sort it this week.

 

 

[LABILLBACKER]

He's right on schedule.  The only part of his game that's still deficient is the long ball overthrows. He's lost the 3td/300 yard game because of these bomb misses. It will come. Someone will step up and teach him " touch & trajectory ".....

[Awwufelloff]

Josh Allen “wins” games because of the defense we have, not because of what he does. If tre white doesn’t make that game changing INT, we lose to the 0-5 Dolphins. He needs to be more accurate, I do not care one bit how far he can throw the ball if it’s not accurate. It’s literally a useless weapon as we saw in his overthrown “bombs” today. I’m still not sold at all on him. I actually think he ends up being an below average nfl starter. Hope he proves me wrong. When I watch the true great qbs in the nfl I see them put up 300 yards 3/4 tds. Did anyone watch Rodgers today with his top wr out? That’s a real QB. We’re still searching for one. 

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

I think no matter what Allen does his critics will always B word, it's just the way it is with him for some odd reason. If he throws a 300 yard, 3 TD game but loses the critics will say thats nice but he lost the game, now were winning and his critics want to see this 300 yard, 3 TD game at any cost. Play smart, run more, game manage with Allen. A great example is Big Ben, he was quite raw just like Allen coming out of a small school and they game managed him for 3 seasons until he started putting up decent numbers but he won games for them. Pound the rock, game manage with Allen and play stout defense and all the rest will come.

[bills11]

"those games" are usually achieved with chunk plays..Josh is capable of producing those numbers but it requires fixing his deep ball issues..he hits on those two deep balls today hes at or near a 300 yard performance with atleast 3 tds 

[Wayne Cubed]

For me, it's not so much Allen having "that game", although I'd like to see that too, as it is the offense as a whole having "that game". To my eyes the offensive execution, at various points in each game, has been awful. Whether it's the presnap penalties or the drops or players just not doing their jobs, they seem to struggle to get going. Sometimes it's at the start of the game and sometimes it's in the  3rd quarter. The playing calling has actually been pretty good outside a couple of drives. Can the offense as a whole, take over a game and put the team on it's back? We know they can come back but it would be nice to seem them dominate from the get go.

[nucci]

Didn't he play well yesterday and lead his team to a win? Isn't that what we want from our QB?

[Seven-N-Nine]

Well, if he does not have one this season it will be alarming IMO.

[Beast]

Of course I want to see it because we will need it at some point.

[H2o]

I think he's close honestly and could if we weren't trying to achieve balance on offense like some teams. You can see it when he hits these hot streaks where he's 9-10, 10-11, 12-14, and he's seeing the field out there. As long as we're winning with what we are doing I'm good. 

[dollars 2 donuts]

9 hours ago, Process said:

That game where he shows he is able to light up a defense with his arm? Where it looks like he can be a true franchise QB? Where he shows that even though he will make mistakes as young qb, he is capable of going up against a guy like Rodgers or Brees or Mahomes and keep up with them in a shootout? I'm talking about a game with 300+ yards and 3+ TDs....

 

Right now wins are all that matters. But I do care and I do want to see it, because to be able to compete in the playoffs we are going to need a QB that can win and take over a game with his arm. 

 

Baker Mayfield had a 4TD game last year and has had several games with 300+ passing yards

Daniel Jones had 300+ yards in his first career start

Kyle Murray, a rookie on one of the worst teams in the NFL, has 3 300+ yard games in the first half of the year

Lamar Jackson went for 300+ and 5TDs against the Dolphins

 

Most thought this would be the week but it wasn't, so when? Next week is an even better opportunity. The Eagles have the worst secondary in the NFL, they get lit up every single week. They also have one of the best run defenses, which should force us to throw the ball. If Allen can't put up numbers against them it's hard to see when it will happen. 

 

 

For a youngling you done right real good like.  We ain’t much for fancy book learnin’ around these parts.

 

Nice post, process, and it is frustrating.  Either it is my imagination playing tricks on me, but I thought I saw someone else during highlights last night that threw for 300 and I thought “him?”.

 

[Xwnyer]

10 hours ago, Process said:

That game where he shows he is able to light up a defense with his arm? Where it looks like he can be a true franchise QB? Where he shows that even though he will make mistakes as young qb, he is capable of going up against a guy like Rodgers or Brees or Mahomes and keep up with them in a shootout? I'm talking about a game with 300+ yards and 3+ TDs....

 

Right now wins are all that matters. But I do care and I do want to see it, because to be able to compete in the playoffs we are going to need a QB that can win and take over a game with his arm. 

 

Baker Mayfield had a 4TD game last year and has had several games with 300+ passing yards

Daniel Jones had 300+ yards in his first career start

Kyle Murray, a rookie on one of the worst teams in the NFL, has 3 300+ yard games in the first half of the year

Lamar Jackson went for 300+ and 5TDs against the Dolphins

 

Most thought this would be the week but it wasn't, so when? Next week is an even better opportunity. The Eagles have the worst secondary in the NFL, they get lit up every single week. They also have one of the best run defenses, which should force us to throw the ball. If Allen can't put up numbers against them it's hard to see when it will happen. 

Dabol needs to put together a game plan that allows for this sort of game.  Not sure what the plan was for fins but should have been run heavy and lots of play action.  The line needs to provide better protection and the backs need to pick up blitz reads and stay in to block a blitzing CB.  

[Sundancer]

He can get chunk plays. He can manage games. He can run. He can play clutch. 

 

Let's complain!

 

He's in his second one year. I'm thrilled with thIs "project."

[billsfan_34]

He has to start getting rid of the ball sooner and work on his long ball accuracy- especially when I am counting 5 seconds plus of a clean pocket! In Allens defense run the damn ball early and use some play action- the empty backfield allows the D to dial in on him. Allen had a bad first half but play calling did not help. 

With all that said good teams find a way to win...

 

5-1 Go Bills

[mjt328]

12 hours ago, Process said:

That game where he shows he is able to light up a defense with his arm? Where it looks like he can be a true franchise QB? Where he shows that even though he will make mistakes as young qb, he is capable of going up against a guy like Rodgers or Brees or Mahomes and keep up with them in a shootout? I'm talking about a game with 300+ yards and 3+ TDs....

 

Right now wins are all that matters. But I do care and I do want to see it, because to be able to compete in the playoffs we are going to need a QB that can win and take over a game with his arm. 

 

Baker Mayfield had a 4TD game last year and has had several games with 300+ passing yards

Daniel Jones had 300+ yards in his first career start

Kyle Murray, a rookie on one of the worst teams in the NFL, has 3 300+ yard games in the first half of the year

Lamar Jackson went for 300+ and 5TDs against the Dolphins

 

Most thought this would be the week but it wasn't, so when? Next week is an even better opportunity. The Eagles have the worst secondary in the NFL, they get lit up every single week. They also have one of the best run defenses, which should force us to throw the ball. If Allen can't put up numbers against them it's hard to see when it will happen. 

 

At the end of the day, the only thing that matters is winning.

 

However... Bills fans need to realize that our Defense is NOT going to be capable of carrying this team for the next 10-15 years.  If we are extremely lucky, they will be a Top 5-10 unit most seasons and occasionally dominant for stretches.  But you can't count on a Defense to consistently carry a team into Super Bowl contention.  The best Defenses in NFL history were able to remain elite for 1-2 seasons before trailing off.  To be a long-term success, the Bills will need to have a QB playing consistently at a Top 10 level.  

 

So yes.  It absolutely matters that Josh Allen have a breakout game - proving he can dominate the opponent with his arm and carry the Offense to 35+ points.

 

With that said, I don't think Allen is TOTALLY to blame for his lack of breakout this season.  

 

The offense (as a whole) is struggling to complete drives, and struggling to stay in rhythm for an entire 4 quarters.  This has been a trend since the opening moments of the Jets game, when we drove 50-60 yards and fumbled on a sack-strip.  Strangely enough, this is not a Red Zone issue - as we are among the league's best at converting RZ trips into Touchdowns.  Our problem seems to be turnovers, penalties, sacks and drops - always stalling drives once we hit the opponent 30-40 yard line.  We also seem to go through extended stretches of 3-4 drives per game where our Offense is incapable of doing anything, before we suddenly get back into playing well.

 

Allen's stats have also suffered because of coaching preference and game situation.  Six games in, the Bills haven't really been forced into being aggressive.  The only exception being the 16 point deficit against the Jets (in which the Bills rolled-up 17 unanswered points in the 4th Quarter).  We haven't trailed significantly at any other point.  And where the majority of other teams go for the throat when they are playing well, our staff clearly gets into a conservative shell anytime we get into a double-digit lead.  You saw this in the Giants and Bengals games, and then again in the 4th Quarter yesterday.  They trust the Defense to hold strong, and start looking to run the clock down when up by two scores.  This isn't going to help Allen's passing stats.  

 

Bottom line... the glimpses of what we WANT/NEED our QB to be are very visible.  We see stretches of them almost every single week.  

Right now, I think Allen is trying to find the delicate balance of being aggressive enough to consistently score points... versus pushing the ball too much and causing multiple turnovers.  It can be very frustrating at times.  The good news?  Anytime we've needed Allen to step-up during crunch time, he's done it.  Don't forget he was driving us down for the go-ahead score against New England before the concussion.  Hopefully he will eventually put the pieces together and become more consistent.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by mjt328

[Big Gun]

Allens stats minus the NE game and their #1 defense where hoody obviously had him intimidated are not bad.

 

5 gms

105/161...1171 yds...7 TD...4 int...65.1 comp%...92.62 QBR...164 rush...3 TD

and most importantly 5-0 record.  

 

[TheElectricCompany]

So many "what ifs...."  and excuses in this thread. 

I want to see it. 300 yards isn't even that high of a bar. Tim Tebow did it in his 2nd start!

 

 

Edited October 21, 2019 by TheElectricCompany

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

12 hours ago, BringBackFergy said:

I WANT AN OOMPA LOOMPA NOW!!! 

just look in the mirror 

 

lol 

[apuszczalowski]

1 hour ago, TheElectricCompany said:

So many "what ifs...."  and excuses in this thread. 

I want to see it. 300 yards isn't even that high of a bar. Tim Tebow did it in his 2nd start!

 

 

In today's NFL, even losing QBs can end up with 300 yards and still have a bad game. Yesterday's game was a bit concerning for him and the offence as it should have been a game where they put up career stats, coming off a bye week against the league's worst team, yet they put up their usual stats and needed to come back to win

[TheElectricCompany]

14 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

In today's NFL, even losing QBs can end up with 300 yards and still have a bad game. Yesterday's game was a bit concerning for him and the offence as it should have been a game where they put up career stats, coming off a bye week against the league's worst team, yet they put up their usual stats and needed to come back to win

 

I'd be interested in the 5 year W/L record for QBs who throw for 300+ yards and 0 TDs. 

A few weeks ago, Goff had a 500 yard game he lost, but I don't think his situation compares to Josh. He has plenty of monster games on his resume. 

We get some more cannon fodder opponents in November, lets see if he can make it happen. 

[Lionel Hutz]

This is a QB league and you need an elite one to win in the playoffs. 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Lionel Hutz

[Seven-N-Nine]

Allen will likely never have "that game".

[Beast]

I just don’t understand why our offense looks worse this season, with much better players, than it did the last quarter of last season with much worse players.

[CircleTheWagons99]

42 minutes ago, Seven-N-Nine said:

Allen will likely never have "that game".

Im starting to believe this, and it makes me sad.

[Awwufelloff]

He’s never been good 

[Beast]

Just now, NJKBillsfan said:

 

Probably has to do with the way they are coaching Allen. 

How are they coaching him?

[Beast]

1 minute ago, NJKBillsfan said:

 

I think they are having him stay in the pocket and pass more this season.

Last year he ran a lot more which is where a lot of the offensive production came from.

I don’t know. I have seen him roll designed as well as escaping the pocket many times this season.

 

 

Edited October 27, 2019 by Binghamton Beast

[Beast]

Just now, NJKBillsfan said:

It is weird that the offense looked better last season with much worse players.

Agreed.

[Nextmanup]

5 minutes ago, NJKBillsfan said:

 

I think they are having him stay in the pocket and pass more this season.

Last year he ran a lot more which is where a lot of the offensive production came from.

So you're saying that when we ask our quarterback to throw the ball, we have problems.

When we let him run ad lib scramble plays, we have success.

 

Bill Belichick agrees with you.  

 

That's why he made Josh play like a quarterback and why he had such a horrible game against the Pats.