Anyone else concerned about Pass Rush?

[MR8]

People are talking a lot about the offense, and rightfully so, but something that stuck out to me like a sore thumb all game was the inability for this team to reach Andy Dalton.

 

Going into this weeks game one of the biggest things discussed about the Bungles was that their O-Line was banged up TERRIBLY, and the Bills should be able to feast on them.  But that wasn't the case.  They did a nice job in the first half stuffing the run, and flummoxing Dalton by putting pressure forcing quicker throws.  But they still weren't getting to him, and this inability to hit him and knock him down allowed them to change their offensive approach. 

 

In the second half they adjusted with shorter routes in space between the zone, and the defense struggled then to stop them.  I know no defense will stop an offense all day, and only allowing 17 points is a win for any defense, but my point is that they were put in a position to need a stop, and the defense bent to allow them to get to field goal range to win.   All the while this HIGHLY paid defensive line was entirely unable to register sacks against Dalton despite them having injuries all over the line.

 

Dalton is far from a world beater QB, and he picked the D apart in the second half in the short passing game.  Thankfully he's not Tom Brady or they would've moved the ball even better and really run us out in the second half.

 

My concern is WE DO PLAY TOM BRADY THIS WEEK!  No one is better at the short precise passing attack than Brady, and that has been exposed by the Bungles as a weakness of this defense.  

 

It's highly documented that the way you beat Brady is to, to quote Kawika Mitchell "Punch him in the mouth, and when he gets back up you punch him again".  Our D can't get to Andy Dalton behind a TERRIBLE O-line... how do we expect them to get pressure on Tom Brady who is known for getting it out quick?  

 

IMO it's a large concern! 

 

Maybe I'm over analyzing it, but I really don't think I am... if they can't get pressure on Brady this week, he is going to dink and dunk pick us apart on the way to 35 points this week.  And I don't see the Bills winning in a shoot out... 

[Mrbojanglezs]

I thought Ed Oliver would have had a more noticeable impact than he has had so far 

[JoshAllenHasBigHands]

I am concerned, but Dalton got the ball out soooo quick.  Especially at the start of the game, our lineman were on the verge of putting a hit on him after less than 2 seconds, but the ball was out. 

 

But, that is what Brady will do to us. Except he will do it way better. 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Coach Tuesday]

Yes.

[Bob in Mich]

Brady typically uses the quick passes early in a game.  That forces the D-line to spend their energy uselessly.  The d-line gets both gassed and frustrated. 

 

Then, when the pass rushers start to think they can't get to Tommy and they put in less effort, the pass patterns get deeper and take longer to develop.  I hate him but he is a master at his craft.

[YoloinOhio]

They won’t get to Brady. Fact. 

 

They need to pressure him up the middle to throw off his timing 

 

they need to score points on offense 

 

The Bills and other teams have had successful game plans vs Brady over the years but it’s virtually impossible to completely shut them down. What they’ve rarely been able to do is have a successful offensive game plan vs Belichick. That’s the only way to beat them. 

[MR8]

I see what you guys are saying about how quick it comes out, but that's Tom Brady's bread and butter... so how do you shut it down from a guy like him, who is 1000X better than Dalton, who executed it to 17 points in the second half, and put his team in position to win. 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Pass rush is a significant concern. They are getting nothing from Murphy. Lawson’s sack was an effort and coverage sack. Otherwise he has not generated any pressure. Hughes has been ok but seems to have taken a step back from last year. Oliver has been fine for what you expect from a rookie DT.

Frazier has dialed up some blitzes that have been reasonably effective. 

 

And now we come to the unanswered question - do you blitz Brady or not? I have always said yes because he will pick us apart with no pressure anyways.  When Rex dropped 7 or 8 Brady passed for over 400. They don't have the weapons outside or at TE to beat the Bills deep. I say unleash hell on Brady this week. Poyer should play in the box the entire game with Hyde as a single high safety.  I know McD loves his zone, but this is the week to play more man and blitz Brady from all angles, especially up the middle with Lorax and Edmunds. Also the corners need to play closer to the LOS. Brady throws mostly short stuff now and while a 6 yard hitch won’t lose the game, 20 of them will. My only concern is their backs catching out of the backfield. Milano and Edmunds need to play coverage first and then rush if the back stays in to block.

[YoloinOhio]

2 minutes ago, MR8 said:

I see what you guys are saying about how quick it comes out, but that's Tom Brady's bread and butter... so how do you shut it down from a guy like him, who is 1000X better than Dalton, who executed it to 17 points in the second half, and put his team in position to win. 

Again, you don’t. You have to 1) throw off his timing and 2)outscore them. They probably won’t do the 2nd thing not to be negative 

Edited September 23, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[Chandler#81]

No. Would we love having 3/game? Sure. But McDermott is a highly regarded Defensive mind. I think we’re above the curve of altering our rush to play the 3step drop & throw so widely used in the pro game. He’s figured out nearly to the 10th of a second when opposing QBs release the pass on these throws in schemes they favor via down/distance. I say “He” specifically because I believe we lead the League in batted down passes. Look at the height he has playing on passing downs. They count in their heads while holding up pursuit to leap and crush the play. It’s not a fluke when it happens multiple times a game. 

Who’s the best QB at these cheesy little passes? 

He’s coming to New Era next Sunday.

[ddaryl]

With the ticky tacky calls to protect the QB being the masters of collapsing a pocket while swatting down passes at the LOS has increased in value over just out right edge rushes and blitzes that lead to that hit that adds on penalty yards

[Royale with Cheese]

We held Andy Dalton, who threw for over 400 yards against Seattle's defense....at Seattle.

He's got almost 1,000 yards in the first three games this season.  Dalton is a QB that makes mistakes but he's always been able to move the ball through the air.

We held him to virtually nothing for most the of the game yesterday.  

QB's are getting the ball out quickly against us.  They know we can bring the heat so they're game planning against it.  Our pass defense is still good.  

Sacks also come in bunches too.  
We probably won't touch Brady this week so be patient.

[K-9]

In the first half,  the Bengals tried addressing their OLine problems coming into the game by going to a quick, short passing attack with Dalton getting rid of the ball in less than 2.5 seconds and you just aren’t gonna get to a QB in those circumstances. We can expect more from Brady next Sunday.

 

In the second half, the Bengals used max protection schemes virtually the entire time and, again, it’s a chore to get to the QB most of the time, even with the blitz packages Frazier dialed up on occasion. And a good QB is gonna find open guys when he has the time. 

 

Andy Dalton is a good QB. He came into Buffalo with 729 yards passing his first two games, including 418 yards AT Seattle, with a passer rating of 100,  and YPA over 8 while completing 65% of his passes. Yesterday, he had a rating of 63, 5 yards per attempt, and completed 55% of his passes. He made some plays because he’s a decent QB, but we did a good job defending him, especially downfield. No big plays for Ross, especially. 

[GunnerBill]

I'd be worried if it was leading to poor pass defense. But we are 6th in ypg against (with the Bears only having played twice one of the two above us) and we are 5th in ppg defense. 

 

They have been pressuring QBs in patches. They haven't converted enough to sacks. 

[34-78-83]

The pass rush was significant yesterday having watched live and in person. When the Bengals were still trying to throw deeper developing routes, the pocket frequently was collapsed by the Bills rush (and they blitzed VERY little). The interior pressure we've added this year helps a lot. After all that , The Bengals were getting the ball out withing 2 seconds. The Bills should have played more press coverage likely at that point, but seemed fearful of getting beat over the top. Pass rush has been fine this season. Not great, but not a concern.

Edited September 23, 2019 by 34-78-83

[thenorthremembers]

38 minutes ago, Ethan in Portland said:

Pass rush is a significant concern. They are getting nothing from Murphy. Lawson’s sack was an effort and coverage sack. Otherwise he has not generated any pressure. Hughes has been ok but seems to have taken a step back from last year. Oliver has been fine for what you expect from a rookie DT.

Frazier has dialed up some blitzes that have been reasonably effective. 

 

And now we come to the unanswered question - do you blitz Brady or not? I have always said yes because he will pick us apart with no pressure anyways.  When Rex dropped 7 or 8 Brady passed for over 400. They don't have the weapons outside or at TE to beat the Bills deep. I say unleash hell on Brady this week. Poyer should play in the box the entire game with Hyde as a single high safety.  I know McD loves his zone, but this is the week to play more man and blitz Brady from all angles, especially up the middle with Lorax and Edmunds. Also the corners need to play closer to the LOS. Brady throws mostly short stuff now and while a 6 yard hitch won’t lose the game, 20 of them will. My only concern is their backs catching out of the backfield. Milano and Edmunds need to play coverage first and then rush if the back stays in to block.

 

I agree with most of this.   Murphy needs to be cut in the offseason, he has provided nothing in pass rush.  Lawson however has the second most qb hits on the team so he is generating pass rush.   Hughes is Hughes, he may end up with 6 sacks, but the guy has 16 QB Hits already.

 

I wouldnt blitz Brady.  You blitz bad qbs and drop players into coverage on good ones.  

[Jpsredemption]

A huge need likely for next year. They cannot generate enough with the front 4.

[Dablitzkrieg]

No, I'm more concerned about the shotty refs not calling holding

[K-9]

Brady’s gonna get his. Period. Gotta make him earn it though. No chunk plays.

 

I’m more concerned with their run game. 

[Matt_In_NH]

Not a lot.  The defense is pretty darn good and part of their strategy is to bat balls down which they do well.  The pats always pose an extra challenge so it’s always fifficult against them.   The problem with them is if you slow them down on offense they beat you on defense.  It will take a total team effort and maybe a good bounce or two.  

[Jauronimo]

8 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

Slightly. Defense is holding up so it's not as much a concern. 

 

Is it surprising? No. Outside of Hughes they have no real threat to rush the QB. I don't care what the Bills try to tell us, Murphy is a below average DE.

 

Expecting Oliver to come in a make a big impact isn't realistic. Rookie DL typically always struggle.

I watched Oliver toss the guard out of his way at least twice and draw double teams on big passing downs.  He is making an impact.  I know everyone wants to see big sack totals and I think he will notch a few this year.

[Jerome007]

1 hour ago, Bob in Mich said:

Brady typically uses the quick passes early in a game.  That forces the D-line to spend their energy uselessly.  The d-line gets both gassed and frustrated. 

 

Then, when the pass rushers start to think they can't get to Tommy and they put in less effort, the pass patterns get deeper and take longer to develop.  I hate him but he is a master at his craft.

Yes I've noticed that too. And hopefully the coaches make the players fully aware. They'll still be gassed and frustrated... but mentally ready to bring it on in the 4th and teach that Brady dude a lesson

[Formerly Allan in MD]

2 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

They need to pressure him up the middle to throw off his timing

Who throws off Brady's timing?

[BullBuchanan]

If you want a chance at being able to sack a QB like Brady, I think you have to press your DBs. The downside there is that now you can give up the big play if your line can't put enough pressure on the QB.

[YoloinOhio]

25 minutes ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

Who throws off Brady's timing?

The last time they played an elite DT so *checks notes* Aaron Donald. Brady looked bad in the SB. Can the Bills do it? They want to but is Eddie O up to that... don’t know 

Edited September 23, 2019 by YoloinOhio

[PromoTheRobot]

27 minutes ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

Who throws off Brady's timing?

 

Any team that gets to him up the middle. Supposedly we were built for that.

[Estro]

Yes its a pretty big weakness.  The Bills almost never created any pressure yesterday when theu sent 4 and that was what was viewed to be a very porous OLine.  Going to have to improve if we want to beat some of the better teams.

[ddaryl]

37 minutes ago, Estro said:

Yes its a pretty big weakness.  The Bills almost never created any pressure yesterday when theu sent 4 and that was what was viewed to be a very porous OLine.  Going to have to improve if we want to beat some of the better teams.

 

 

We batted down 8 passes at the LOS by collapsing the pocket. You can bemoan the lack of sacks but this team has batted like 20 balls down at the LOS this year. That is quite impressive in itself. 

I mentioned above that with protection rules on QB's collapsing the pocket and getting hands up doesn't risk those ticky tack penalties. there may be some strategy to this whole scenario

Edited September 23, 2019 by ddaryl

[DJB]

3 hours ago, Mrbojanglezs said:

I thought Ed Oliver would have had a more noticeable impact than he has had so far 

 

A few things.

 

- One hes getting double teamed quite a bit

- Even Aaaron Donald didn't get his first sack of the year until last night.

[Big Turk]

Not really...Dalton was being harrassed all first half and they specifically said one of the half time adjustments was that the Bengals went max protect a lot to give him more time and were just having 2 WRs Boyd and Ross out in pass patterns...

[billsfan89]

The pass rush to my eye has been decent. It gets pressure at time and then disappears at times. The D-line however does have a good knack of getting their hands into throwing lanes and batting passes. 

 

Over the course of the season is the pass rush a cause for concern? Yes, the defense will likely still be good enough and against poor and mediocre competition it won't be an issue. But against elite and even good teams the pass rush could be a heavy cause for concern. 

 

I think that edge rush could be a point where the team maybe considers an acquisition if the market is there at the trade deadline. I am not sure who would be on the market but I think right now the team has to be eyeing the WR and Edge rush markets. 

 

Longer term I think they make a major off-season acquisition in 2020 to bolster the pass rush. But as of the 2019 season it seems to be a decent pass rush but not one to write home about either. 

[Big C]

Balls are coming out quick. We are adjusting by batting a lot of balls. 

 

Not only that, we are doing a good job of disguising our looks and it is causing confusion. Did you see the stat that said Brady has thrown more INTs than TDs against us since McDermott has been here? We aren't sacking Brady but we are forcing him to make mistakes. That's equally good.

 

I do want to see more sacks on those plays where I see the QB having to go through their progressions but I think we will be fine. 

[Rockinon]

I am not concerned with pass rush so much. Dalton couldn't convert a 1st down to save his life until the defense started playing prevent.  I'm more concerned with the 3rd Qtr protect the lead, take your foot off of their throat mentality.

[Nester]

I was disappointed with the d line and lack of sacks. I did not see anything good or play making from Oliver at all on Sunday.

 

with Harry our for the year, I have major concerns about the D line vs meh teams, let alone the Patriots next week. 

 

Major pressure seemed to come from our all star safety’s on the blitz. Can we extend Poyer and Hyde please?

 

Edit. That blocked passes have been great however.

Edited September 24, 2019 by Nester

[Warren Zevon]

Harry is a big loss. The other Phillips needs to pick up some slack. Maybe Lawson lines up inside more often now.

[YoloinOhio]

1 minute ago, Gary Busey said:

Harry is a big loss. The other Phillips needs to pick up some slack. Maybe Lawson lines up inside more often now.

Shaq gets his paw up well. I would like to see him bat some of Brady’s balls. 

 

You know what i mean 

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

There is a ton of holding going on that is not getting flagged across the NFL. I predict sack number will be at a all time low this year if it keeps up. 

[SJDK]

It looks like we play a lot of cover 2 man under. Cover 3 and cover 4 also. Not a lot of blitzing, i think mcD and Frazier would rather have more in coverage for the chance of a turnover. Our linebackers are fast enough to track underneath stuff and the whole team is pretty good at tackling. No sense betting the farm on a blitz when we can just play defense and win the series. It’s the same type of deal as people who are PO’d that Josh Allen hasn’t thrown for 300 yards yet, who cares? Scoreboard☝?