Lions fans mad at Dan Campbell. Bills fans mad at Sean McDermott. Would you trade McD for Campbell

[Cray51]

I understand being aggressive on 4th down early in games because you have the opportunity to cover the mistake if you dont convert.

 

But if you are up by 2 scores, and you have the chance to kick a FG - take the damn points.  It isn't a situation where you are trying to claw every point out, so you take heavy risk to try to get 7 instead of 3.  You have the lead, you have a chance to build on it.  

 

Campbell seems like a guy who can learn, I wonder if he will adjust moving forward.

[TwistofFate]

9 minutes ago, Chaos said:

We’re the chiefs rams and bengals perennial champs when their current head coaches took over ?

Not sure why we continue to compare to these teams they were stacked with Talent outside of Josh Allen and perhaps Stephon Diggs where is this Elite Talent.

 

Where is the wide receiver Talent where are the multiple Pro Bowl defensive players or offensive players or wide receivers?

 

This team was ***** for decades McDermott turned it all around and this team is close we're a few pieces away.

[Chaos]

McDer

29 minutes ago, TwistofFate said:

Not sure why we continue to compare to these teams they were stacked with Talent outside of Josh Allen and perhaps Stephon Diggs where is this Elite Talent.

 

Where is the wide receiver Talent where are the multiple Pro Bowl defensive players or offensive players or wide receivers?

 

This team was ***** for decades McDermott turned it all around and this team is close we're a few pieces away.

McDermott took over an 8-9 team. He went 9-8 the next year. Then got Josh Allen.  The only meaningful comparison to the drought era coaching is that he was 1 game better than the comparable roster Rex Ryan had the year before. 

[MikePJ76]

In a heartbeat.  I love Dan Campbell.

 

Sean McDermott is to the Bills right now what Tony Dungy was to Tampa Bay in the late 90's early 00's.  He has taken the team as far as it can go.  There is no shame for McDermott in moving on and he will be a head coach somewhere else.  Its a replacement business. 

 

This is the perfect offseason to hire an offensive minded head coach, you know like KC, SF, Rams, Bengals, Eagles etc....outside of New England all the other champions of the last 10 years have offensive head coaches.  Andy Reid, Sean McVay, Doug Pederson, Gary Kubiak.

 

Instead they are refusing to accept the truth staring them in the face and they are going to just let Sean McDermott take another shot at out scheming the opponent because this year might be the year he does it.

 

IMO it is time for a change but obviously they are not going to to do that so I am not going to harp on it over and over this offseason, its a pointless exercise. 

 

They have the 2nd best qb in the game, a fantastic offensive line, a good young rb, two excellent tight ends and two good wr.  An offensive minded head coach come in and pick the new WR's to finish out this group and hire a veteran defensive coordinator who can concentrate on defense only.  This is the perfect time do to it.   What's the worst that happens, the defense doesn't play well in the playoffs and gets them beat?

 

[bigK14094]

11 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Not saying McD is perfect. In fact I've been pretty pissed about a handful of his decisions, but I remember the turnstile of coaches we went through during the drought. That sucked too.  

Yes, bills changed coaches every three years.  No more of that, please.  (ok 2- years for REX)  the Bean/McD cooperation is as good as it gets in the NFL.  If you fire one, you will have to get  the other replaced as well.

[djp14150]

Given the point in thr game and situation….hr should have kicked the FG restoring the 3 score/17 point lead.

 

you don’t know the psychology on the FG made vs the cheer of a D stop.  SF got ball at 28 which is the same as 25. Can assume they go out and get a TD, and thr following turnover to TD.  I don’t recall a situation of go for it on 4 th in FG range vs kick a FG being down 17.  If SF was down say 17 or 10 thry might have kicked a FG instead of 4 th doen attempt.

 

2. I would have waited till 4 th to consider a run. 
 

interesting fact. If they were stopped inside the 1 bring down 10– they had a high probability of getting a safety, get ball back and get a TD+2 than getting a TD/FG/ onside kick/FG/TD score.

[JPP]

Strange question ok than....Pick your poison so to speak.....One is way overly aggresive (Campbell of course) to the point where its costed his team on more than one occasion....Whereas the other can be overly cautious which also has costed his team on more than one occasion....I dont know guess now i would slightly lean on McDermott....Cant get out of my head if our defence was at least close to 100% all season how far we could of actually gone this season?

 

Other poster said earlier Ben Johnson....in a heartbeat!

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

Throw harbaugh in this sounds like ravens fans are done with him too lol 

[mjt328]

Yesterday's game is the perfect example why head coaching changes are overrated.

 

Yes, the decisions that coaches make are HUGELY important to the outcome of games.  And in retrospect, if Dan Campbell decides to kick those field goals instead of going for it on 4th Down, the Lions almost certainly win the game and go to the Super Bowl.  Running the ball at the goal line also cost them a timeout, which would have allowed the defense one more crack at getting the ball.

 

But at the same time, you absolutely cannot blame Campbell for the outcome of those plays.  On both 4th Downs, receivers were open and dropped the ball.  That's execution by the players.  Not the coach's fault.  The running play was definitely more risky than a pass, but he was trying to catch the defense off-guard and it simply didn't work.  

 

Switch Campbell out for Bill Belichick/Don Shula/Vince Lombardi, and maybe the outcome of this game is different.  But maybe some other games along the way don't workout for the Lions, because those coaches were less aggressive.  Bottom line... what most coaches get criticized/praised for during their careers falls back 95% on the players.  Whether to punt, go for it, kick the field goal.  When to run trick plays.  With the benefit of hindsight (and knowing whether it worked or not), decisions can look brilliant or stupid.  

 

In my opinion, offensive/defensive coordinators are more important... because they are matching scheme to talent.

 

[buffaloboyinATL]

I voted no on Campbell.  I think he is a great coach for the Lions, but watching that aggressive style of play calling all of the time would be nerve wracking.  It is fun to see him gamble and take risks, but if the Lions were my team, it would drive me crazy.  

[Golden*Wheels]

I missed the second half...was his big mistake going for it on fourth in the first half, and not kicking the FG? Or did he do something silly in the 2nd half?

Edited January 29 by Golden*Wheels

[26TrapDraw]

13 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

One is aggressive and the other cautious but both seem to blow it under pressure.

At least Campbell has Balls . McClapperson is a cautious rabbit that drives me insane. What kind of message does being cautious send to a football team that are supposed to be blood thirsty maniacs? Answer? The team we have now who know that they are going to blow it with no confidence. Just like our coach.

[Gregg]

2 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

I missed the second half...was his big mistake going for it on fourth in the first half, and not kicking the FG? Or did he do something silly in the 2nd half?

 

SF kicked a FG on the first drive of the 2nd half to make 24-10. The Lions moved into FG range on the next drive. Instead of kicking the FG and making it 27-10. He went for it on 4th down and didn't get it. The WR didn't catch the ball, but he was open. SF then made it 24-17 and it snowballed from there. In the 4th quarter with the Niners up 27-24 he had a chance to tie the game with a FG but went for it on 4th down and didn't make it. SF then went down the field and made it 34-24 which pretty much ended the game.

[babulator]

I don't think anyone is taking this loss any harder than Motor City Dan. I feel for him and the team. He's a good coach and hopefully will learn from this moving forward. 

[blitzboy54]

13 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Not saying McD is perfect. In fact I've been pretty pissed about a handful of his decisions, but I remember the turnstile of coaches we went through during the drought. That sucked too.  

 

We all do, but for all the arguments to keep him this one I struggle with the most. It's not one or the other. The drought happened because we never had a QB. The coaches got turned over as a result. I feel like we are hanging on to a guy that can't get it done out of fear it might be worse. I doubt 13 seconds happens under Gaily or Rex. 

 

Jauron, yes probably. 

[GunnerBill]

No and no. 

 

What you get with all fanbases is the extremes who shout loudest on the internet. 

[Einstein's Dog]

25 minutes ago, Golden*Wheels said:

I missed the second half...was his big mistake going for it on fourth in the first half, and not kicking the FG? Or did he do something silly in the 2nd half?

No, quite the opposite.  DC went conservative at the end of the first half and then overly aggressive in the third and fourth quarters.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Chaos said:

McDer

McDermott took over an 8-9 team. He went 9-8 the next year. Then got Josh Allen.  The only meaningful comparison to the drought era coaching is that he was 1 game better than the comparable roster Rex Ryan had the year before. 

 

Took over a 7-9 team went 9-7. Two games better and with a worse roster. 

[Livinginthepast]

Campbell put in them in the position to win last night but also made some blunders that made their loss not just possible but eventually inevitable. In the end I think its a wash for both. The reason Detroit lost is that in the crucial moments the players themselves didnt make the plays:

1. The Killer fumble

2. The db not intercepting the deep overthrow to Samuel but assisting him to catch it (Cam Lewis/Justin Jefferson style) instead of knocking it down.

3. Goff misfiring on a few throws where it looked like it slips out of his hands and the receiver was open.

4. Dropped passes that were well thrown in the receivers hands (one on 4th down).

5. An easy dropped INT that might have been a pick 6?

6. At least 3 whiffed sacks on Purdy where he ran for huge gains

 

Thats just what I can remember. They are a young team and obviously in those situations the pressure just ate them up.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, blitzboy54 said:

 

We all do, but for all the arguments to keep him this one I struggle with the most. It's not one or the other. The drought happened because we never had a QB. The coaches got turned over as a result. I feel like we are hanging on to a guy that can't get it done out of fear it might be worse. I doubt 13 seconds happens under Gaily or Rex. 

 

Jauron, yes probably. 

 

Every drought coach was worse than McDermott. Of course none of them had a QB but they were all less able coaches. 

[Fan in Chicago]

28 minutes ago, babulator said:

I don't think anyone is taking this loss any harder than Motor City Dan. I feel for him and the team. He's a good coach and hopefully will learn from this moving forward. 

Campbell deserves to take it badly. His in game decisions were the major cause of their loss. I have no sympathy for him. 

[babulator]

2 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Campbell deserves to take it badly. His in game decisions were the major cause of their loss. I have no sympathy for him. 

He made some glaring mistakes, I'm sure they're looking him back in the mirror today. Despite his mistakes, he did not want to lose, and to own that loss in that manner has to be devastating for him. I feel for him, I can't imagine he'd ever do the same thing again.  I wouldn't pull the plug on him if I were the Lions

[Heels20X6]

8 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Campbell deserves to take it badly. His in game decisions were the major cause of their loss. I have no sympathy for him. 

 

Was it his in-game decision for Reynolds to not only drop the 4th and 2 ball but also the 3rd and 8 ball that both landed right in his hands?
 

Was it his in-game decision for Jamyrr to fumble the ball?

 

He coached a great game and never deviated from how he played 4th down all season.  His players let him and Goff down immensely.

[Golden*Wheels]

1 hour ago, Gregg said:

 

SF kicked a FG on the first drive of the 2nd half to make 24-10. The Lions moved into FG range on the next drive. Instead of kicking the FG and making it 27-10. He went for it on 4th down and didn't get it. The WR didn't catch the ball, but he was open. SF then made it 24-17 and it snowballed from there. In the 4th quarter with the Niners up 27-24 he had a chance to tie the game with a FG but went for it on 4th down and didn't make it. SF then went down the field and made it 34-24 which pretty much ended the game.

Oof.

 

And DOUBLE OOF.

 

Thanks Gregg for the explanation. I must have watched more then I thought as I thought he went for it on 4th in the first half too. I did see the first 4th down attempt and was like "damn man I know this is how you got here but....take those points!!! 3 Scores!".

 

I have my beefs with McD (I feel he is sometimes inconsistent in his logic of when he does or doesn't go for it on 4th) but this is brutal for Lions fans.

 

 

 

[LeGOATski]

14 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Not saying McD is perfect. In fact I've been pretty pissed about a handful of his decisions, but I remember the turnstile of coaches we went through during the drought. That sucked too.  

That sucked too?

 

I think you mean "that sucked infinitely more"

[Matt_In_NH]

fans are fanatical, reason is out the window for so many.  

 

FIRE EVERONE NOW, DONT LET HIM BACK IN THE LOCKER ROOM AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW!

[Goin Breakdown]

2 hours ago, blitzboy54 said:

 

We all do, but for all the arguments to keep him this one I struggle with the most. It's not one or the other. The drought happened because we never had a QB. The coaches got turned over as a result. I feel like we are hanging on to a guy that can't get it done out of fear it might be worse. I doubt 13 seconds happens under Gaily or Rex. 

 

Jauron, yes probably. 

Crazy how that happens. You get coaches fired because the QB isn't good enough and then you get coaches who would have probably been fired if not for being bailed out by Good QB play. As much as I hate to compliment KC, that is what makes them who they are. Great QB and Coach. 

[Drew21PA]

I think they are both good coaches

 

i just can’t trust either of them to make a solid and excellent football decision that is needed to be Made in key points of a football game 

1 hour ago, Golden*Wheels said:

Oof.

 

And DOUBLE OOF.

 

Thanks Gregg for the explanation. I must have watched more then I thought as I thought he went for it on 4th in the first half too. I did see the first 4th down attempt and was like "damn man I know this is how you got here but....take those points!!! 3 Scores!".

 

I have my beefs with McD (I feel he is sometimes inconsistent in his logic of when he does or doesn't go for it on 4th) but this is brutal for Lions fans.

 

 

 

Is that the one where the reciever dropped the forth down?

 

have to agree with the call - execution bad

 

you can’t know if the offense keeps the drives going at that point

 

sf defense is solid 

 

your defense gives up way too many points and it was starting to be a shoot out

 

2nd one looks worse becuase the first failed  imo

[Doc Brown]

2 hours ago, Heels20X6 said:

 

Was it his in-game decision for Reynolds to not only drop the 4th and 2 ball but also the 3rd and 8 ball that both landed right in his hands?
 

Was it his in-game decision for Jamyrr to fumble the ball?

 

He coached a great game and never deviated from how he played 4th down all season.  His players let him and Goff down immensely.

Nobody can defend the run play and burning that time out at the end of the game.  Inexcusable in that big of a moment.  Relying on an onsides kick when you didn't have to is coaching malpractice. 

[Wayne Arnold]

I would prefer Dan Campbell because his decision-making is based on analytics and not fear-based / risk-aversion.

 

I think McDermott tries to base decisions on analytics but to his core he focuses on his fear of what can go wrong as opposed to focusing on what can go right. 

[Fan in Chicago]

4 hours ago, Heels20X6 said:

 

 

He coached a great game and never deviated from how he played 4th down all season.  His players let him and Goff down immensely.

Also known as stubborn and bone headed. This isnt a linear, if-then-else situation. He was wrong to go for it instead of taking the 3 at that point. The margin for error was very slim. He cost his team the game

[UKBillFan]

6 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

Campbell put in them in the position to win last night but also made some blunders that made their loss not just possible but eventually inevitable. In the end I think its a wash for both. The reason Detroit lost is that in the crucial moments the players themselves didnt make the plays:

1. The Killer fumble

2. The db not intercepting the deep overthrow to Samuel but assisting him to catch it (Cam Lewis/Justin Jefferson style) instead of knocking it down.

3. Goff misfiring on a few throws where it looked like it slips out of his hands and the receiver was open.

4. Dropped passes that were well thrown in the receivers hands (one on 4th down).

5. An easy dropped INT that might have been a pick 6?

6. At least 3 whiffed sacks on Purdy where he ran for huge gains

 

Thats just what I can remember. They are a young team and obviously in those situations the pressure just ate them up.

 

Though a big play when against the Lions - when Purdy's throw fell through the Vildor's hands, bounced off his helmet and Aiyuk was able to dive on it. Make that play 100 times over, and 99 times it would have been intercepted or fell incomplete and left the 49ers in a difficult situation.

[Alphadawg7]

20 hours ago, Livinginthepast said:

One is aggressive and the other cautious but both seem to blow it under pressure.

 

There is nothing cautious about McD, he is one of the most aggressive coaches in the NFL.  This idea he is cautious is a myth that started over the fact he had a defensive background when he was hired and then not having much to work with on offense his first couple seasons.  

[Chaos]

1 minute ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

There is nothing cautious about McD, he is one of the most aggressive coaches in the NFL.  This idea he is cautious is a myth that started over the fact he had a defensive background when he was hired and then not having much to work with on offense his first couple seasons.  

The punt against the Bengals in the playoffs amplified this belief.  I am still bitter about that call. 

[Livinginthepast]

4 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

There is nothing cautious about McD, he is one of the most aggressive coaches in the NFL.  This idea he is cautious is a myth that started over the fact he had a defensive background when he was hired and then not having much to work with on offense his first couple seasons.  

 

[Alphadawg7]

Dan Campbell lost them that game.  Yes, there were other mistakes, but they still should have won that game had it not been for Dan making very poor decisions in critical moments.  A few that stand out:

1. Up 2 scores and not taking the FG to go up 3 scores while in the 2nd half of a game where you defense has held the opponents offense in check most the game.
2. Late in a game with a chance to tie while your opponent has all the momentum, electing to again pass on the FG to go for it on 4th down.  
3. Calling a run play with 3 timeouts and putting him in a situation of TD or you are screwed and must kick an onside was incredibly stupid.  

Ive liked Dan overall since being there, but this game and Dallas game are two prime examples where his stubbornness got the better of him and he made less optimal decisions that directly led to losing the game with severe ramifications like the #1 seed with the Dallas game and a Super Bowl birth.  

 

The end of the Dallas game reminded me of the movie Tin Cup where he refused to take a drop and just kept hitting in the water...the NFCCG had a similar vibe when it came to making pivotal decisions.  Its great to be aggressive, its whole other thing to be stupid.  In Dallas he was stupid...in SF he was even more stupid as there was so much more on the line.

[FireChans]

I’d be more concerned about the elite Ben Johnson’s offense getting shut down in the second half when the Lions needed a spark.

[bigduke6]

wouldnt take Campbell.  not many coaches out there id even remotely consider to replace McD.   i get the frustration by this fanbase,  but imo its misplaced.  when it comes down to it,  the players have to make plays.  McD has fielded a top defense nearly every year as coach.  D struggled this year for the obvious reasons,  injuries, and it was still nearly good enough.   McD doesnt call the offense,  so cant get on him about that.   he tooks us to a playoff game with friggen Tryrod.  its really easy to second guess everything post failure,  but honestly,  it comes down to the players.  he cant catch for them,  he cant tackle for them.   all he can do is put them in the best spots to succeed.  

[Livinginthepast]

Ben Johnson has to take some heat for the run call where they had to burn a TO at the end. But it compounded the Campbell blunders. 

[PromoTheRobot]

22 hours ago, Chaos said:

Campbell and McDermott have pretty different public personas.  There teams play with different styles.  Would you trade McDermott for Campbell.  Do you think the majority of Lions fans would trade Campbell for McDermott? 

 

Do you not recognize a pattern here?