The pass to Johnson at the end of the first half...

[MikePJ76]

13 minutes ago, TH3 said:

Thank you - There was no WR in the EZ...

I think McDermott's point was you just launch that out of the back of the endzone and take the three.  Had they scored and everything else played out the same that final dolphins drive would have been different and the tension would have been gone

[Warcodered]

14 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

I had no issue with the play either. Baker made a great play/borderline dirty/illegal play to keep him out, but it definitely had a chance to be a TD when Josh threw it.

 

I have more of a problem with McDermott throwing Allen under the bus when he made those comments at the half

It wasn't borderline at all.

 

 

[BuffaloBillyG]

That moron just posted this. 

 

Welp...AFCE TITLE DENIED. 

[DapperCam]

1 minute ago, MikePJ76 said:

I think McDermott's point was you just launch that out of the back of the endzone and take the three.  Had they scored and everything else played out the same that final dolphins drive would have been different and the tension would have been gone

But at halftime you can’t know that the Bills defense would turn into the 85 Bears. Miami had 2 great drives, and it is just as likely we need those extra points to keep up in the 2nd half. That throw scores a TD more often than not. McDermott would win every game 12-9 if he could.

[Alphadawg7]

39 minutes ago, eball said:

...ok, so first of all, we KNOW Josh should have only thrown the ball to a guy in the endzone or thrown it away.  That was a mistake.  But if you get past that, it was a good throw to an open guy and it looked like Johnson was going to score until Baker blew him up with a helmet to helmet hit at the goal line.  Why no flag there?   It was blatant and knocked Johnson out of the game with a concussion.

 

 

If I am being honest about that play, Josh delivered the ball a little behind Johnson whereas had he led him more he could have had a better shot at diving for the score before the impact.  Johnson had to turn all the way back towards the LOS to make that catch and then turn back towards the endzone at which time he was immediately hit.  

 

Not sure he scores either way, but he definitely would have had a little better chance had he not have had to turn back for the ball and caught it in front on him so he could make the dive.

[MikePJ76]

9 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

But at halftime you can’t know that the Bills defense would turn into the 85 Bears. Miami had 2 great drives, and it is just as likely we need those extra points to keep up in the 2nd half. That throw scores a TD more often than not. McDermott would win every game 12-9 if he could.

I was just stating what McDermott meant.

 

and yea it was a blatant penalty and they should have had an untimed down in which they no doubt would have gone for it.

 

[Big Turk]

I've watched that play at least 10 times and every time I'm left stunned that he didn't score from his momentum carrying him in.

 

It was a solid tackle by Baker. An illegal, solid tackle, but that didn't get called.

[K-9]

It can’t be a surprise that the gutless cretin refs didn’t throw the flag on that play in that situation. 
 

As for the play itself, I think Johnson could have thinned out the route a bit, but he did all he could given his relative inexperience with Josh. 

[Royale with Cheese]

12 minutes ago, DapperCam said:

But at halftime you can’t know that the Bills defense would turn into the 85 Bears. Miami had 2 great drives, and it is just as likely we need those extra points to keep up in the 2nd half. That throw scores a TD more often than not. McDermott would win every game 12-9 if he could.

 

We have stopped the Dolphins offense without being the 85 Bears.

 

If McDermott wanted to score very little points, he would have kept Tyrod Taylor.  
If McDermott wanted to score very little points, then we wouldn't be the league leader in point differential in the last 4 years.  We by far lead the league in blowouts.

[Dan Darragh]

53 minutes ago, blitzboy54 said:

There are two problems here. First no call on the helmet to helmet (this being the second BEYOND obvious foul that should have been called, first being the Knox PI) the other issue is McD waisted the last TO with 57 seconds left. We were over the 50, had a first down and plenty of time. Just spike it. 

What you're saying is waste a play to save a timeout so that you'll be able to get an extra play.  Doesn't make any sense.

[Simon]

I hope that guys getting after it at the goalline never ever becomes a penalty.

That's just football in its purest form.

[Bermuda Triangle]

51 minutes ago, zow2 said:

From the field level video I saw behind Josh, it was pretty crazy to see how wide open Ty Johnson was when he caught that ball, and how fast the guys closed on him. Josh had to think that was a TD when he released the ball.  Clearly helmet to helmet but as we have seen, the refs basically stopped calling that...even on the Bills.

 

[CincyBillsFan]

52 minutes ago, KDIGGZ said:

This is football, not tiddlywinks. I'm fine with the hit given the situation. I wouldn't want them getting a flag if that was our D making the stop.

 

As for Josh, that cost us at least 3 points. Also the first INT to nobody in the end zone was another 3. Also the sack fumble was possibly another 3. That's 9 points Josh alone cost us. Yes he also scored some points but we won't have the luxury to give up 9 points to the good teams in the playoffs

Allen "alone" cost us 3 points on the strip sack?  Doesn't Torrense and maybe Morse get an assist there?  Or is it real rare when a great DT gets into the backfield instantly and hits the QB a fumble occurs?

 

And is Cook responsible for costing us 7 points when he dropped a perfectly thrown pass right before the Johnson throw?

 

 

[HappyDays]

7 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

 

 

Yeah I was gonna post that screenshot too. Baker is out of the frame at that point. It's crazy that it somehow wasn't a TD. A tougher RB stretches over the goalline, but I can't really blame Ty, it was just a great play by Baker.

 

If Allen isn't supposed to throw this pass, then they might as well have just kicked the FG on 3rd down. That's as open as it gets in this situation. The correct answer is that Cook needed to make a simple catch in the endzone on the previous play. You don't often get multiple chances to score TDs at this area of the field. Cook blew it, no one else.

 

Edited January 10 by HappyDays

[BuffaloMatt]

If it worked JA is king, it didn't .  . .he gets scolded. As for the penalty, I thought the Zerbras all weekend in the games that had consequences  kept their flags in their pocket. Maybe that was something the league put in place? 

1 minute ago, HappyDays said:

 

Yeah I was gonna post that screenshot too. Baker is out of the frame at that point. It's crazy that it somehow wasn't a TD. A tougher RB stretches over the goalline, but I can't really blame Ty, it was just a great player by Baker.

 

If Allen isn't supposed to throw this pass, then they might as well have just kicked the FG on 3rd down. That's as open as it gets in this situation. The correct answer is that Cook needed to make a simple catch in the endzone on the previous play. You don't often get multiple chances to score TDs at this area of the field. Cook blew it, no one else.

Eli Apple corraled him around the waist which was a major reason that he didn't get in

Edited January 10 by BuffaloMatt

[manateefan]

It clearly was helmet to helmet. Should have been a penalty. Johnson out because possible concussion.

 

[Freak-O]

55 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Good teams don't cry about flags they didn't get. It was a bad decision to throw that ball because the end result was very likely to happen and it did. He could have tackled him lower and it would have been the same thing.

All teams cry about flags they didn’t get, so by that logic there are no good teams. 

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

43 minutes ago, BeastMaster said:

I had no issue with the play either. Baker made a great play/borderline dirty/illegal play to keep him out, but it definitely had a chance to be a TD when Josh threw it.

 

I have more of a problem with McDermott throwing Allen under the bus when he made those comments at the half

 

Can't tell you how annoyed I was at that McD comment.

 

You're the head coach. You can't call a play with multiple guys running routes short of the EZ and then blame the QB when he throws it to one of them. 

 

Par for the course for our HC that never accepts personal responsibility on mistakes. 

[Buffalo716]

4 minutes ago, manateefan said:

It clearly was helmet to helmet. Should have been a penalty. Johnson out because possible concussion.

 

Just going helmet to helmet doesn't make it a penalty.. helmets collide every single play

 

It does not look like he lowered the crown of his helmet into Ty's just to KO him 

 

They both lower their head for contact at the goal line... bracing for a huge impact

Edited January 10 by Buffalo716

[KDIGGZ]

4 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Allen "alone" cost us 3 points on the strip sack?  Doesn't Torrense and maybe Morse get an assist there?  Or is it real rare when a great DT gets into the backfield instantly and hits the QB a fumble occurs?

 

And is Cook responsible for costing us 7 points when he dropped a perfectly thrown pass right before the Johnson throw?

If you protect the football it's very rare for you to turn it over. Holding onto the ball with 1 hand while getting sacked is not protecting the football. Throwing to nobody in the end zone for a pick is not protecting the football. Throwing short of the end zone with no timeouts it's just stupid, high school kids know not to do that

[Royale with Cheese]

41 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Allen "alone" cost us 3 points on the strip sack?  Doesn't Torrense and maybe Morse get an assist there?  Or is it real rare when a great DT gets into the backfield instantly and hits the QB a fumble occurs?

 

And is Cook responsible for costing us 7 points when he dropped a perfectly thrown pass right before the Johnson throw?

 

 

 

There are many moving parts to a game to be black and white to who cost us points.

 

Yes Allen fumbled on the strip sack but he was also pressured immediately on a whiff.  

 

You need complete and full context to know what the situation was on most plays.  It's hard to be just black and white on every result.

Edited January 10 by Royale with Cheese

[CincyBillsFan]

1 minute ago, KDIGGZ said:

If you protect the football it's very rare for you to turn it over. Holding onto the ball with 1 hand while getting sacked is not protecting the football. Throwing to nobody in the end zone for a pick is not protecting the football. Throwing short of the end zone with no timeouts it's just stupid, high school kids know not to do that

Instant pressure on a QB, either from around the end into his blind side or up the middle, often leads to fumbles in college & pro football. 

 

Allen was throwing to where he thought Davis would be to beat a zero blitz.  It's disingenuous to claim he was throwing to nobody.

 

Over the years I have seen many QBs throw the ball to the one yard line at the end of a game or half with no TO's.  More often then not, the guy gets into the end zone.  In this case the Dolphin defenders made a great play - they do get paid to.  And if the flag had been thrown and we had an untimed down from the 1 yard line do you think we would have gone for it or kicked the FG? My sense is we  would have gone for it meaning that scoring a TD and not kicking the FG was the goal at that point on that drive.

 

 

[Simon]

2 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

My sense is we  would have gone for it meaning that scoring a TD and not kicking the FG was the goal at that point on that drive.

 

I thought they were 100% hunting for TDs on that drive and had no interest in a FG.

[4merper4mer]

1 hour ago, blitzboy54 said:

There are two problems here. First no call on the helmet to helmet (this being the second BEYOND obvious foul that should have been called, first being the Knox PI) the other issue is McD waisted the last TO with 57 seconds left. We were over the 50, had a first down and plenty of time. Just spike it. 

Wait a minute!  McD put a TO in his belt with 57 seconds left?  How did he do that?  Are they like little poker chips? 

[CincyBillsFan]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

There are many moving parts to a game to be black and white to who cost us points.

 

Yes Allen fumbled on the strip sack but he wasn't also pressured immediately on a whiff.  

 

You need complete and full context to know what the situation was on most plays.  It's hard to be just black and white on every result.

Of course there are multiple moving parts that complicate assigning blame.  I was responding to a post in which it was being conclusively stated that Allen cost the Bills 3 points on that play.

 

Are you saying that the blocking on that play was acceptable?  Really?  And yes it was essentially instant pressure on Allen up the middle. So IMO the correct context on that play is that Allen was pressured immediately up the middle and as he tried to get away from that pressure the ball was stolen from him.

 

 

[Matt_In_NH]

I understand why McDermott was mad, however, I like the throw, I think 8 out of 10 times he scores.  Baker made a good play, I know people want a penalty but that was a great old school football play to keep the guy out of the endzone.  If Josh took a sack or threw to a guy at the 5 yard line I would have a bigger issue with it.  There was enough there to take the chance IMO.

 

THis play was really interesting on hard knocks, one of the DB's said on mic...."if he throws it to a slant Im gonna let him catch it".  So the Dolphins were ready for this and it worked out good for them.

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, eball said:

...ok, so first of all, we KNOW Josh should have only thrown the ball to a guy in the endzone or thrown it away.  That was a mistake.  But if you get past that, it was a good throw to an open guy and it looked like Johnson was going to score until Baker blew him up with a helmet to helmet hit at the goal line.  Why no flag there?   It was blatant and knocked Johnson out of the game with a concussion.

 

The pass was behind him or he scores there. 

Johnson had to stop and reach back for it, just for a split second. 

[947]

The QB can only throw to the open man. The receiver needs to know he has to run his route to the endzone in that situation. If Ty had caught it where he did & made it in for the TD, we'd all be applauding the decision.

 

It's unfortunate that he took a head shot & that no penalty was called, but it was a hell of an effort to hang onto that ball.

[Draconator]

1 hour ago, BullBuchanan said:

Good teams don't cry about flags they didn't get. It was a bad decision to throw that ball because the end result was very likely to happen and it did. He could have tackled him lower and it would have been the same thing.

Can you leave now?

[Matt_In_NH]

1 hour ago, eball said:

...ok, so first of all, we KNOW Josh should have only thrown the ball to a guy in the endzone or thrown it away.  That was a mistake.  But if you get past that, it was a good throw to an open guy and it looked like Johnson was going to score until Baker blew him up with a helmet to helmet hit at the goal line.  Why no flag there?   It was blatant and knocked Johnson out of the game with a concussion.

 

I thought helmet to helmet is mostly called for defenseless players.  He caught it and was an aggressor.  What is the defender supposed to do there to keep him out?

[Einstein]

I’m fine with the play because given 100 chances with the same play I think we score on most of them. 

Baker made a great play closing in that fast, but doubt he could do it consistently.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

7 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I understand why McDermott was mad, however, I like the throw, I think 8 out of 10 times he scores.  Baker made a good play, I know people want a penalty but that was a great old school football play to keep the guy out of the endzone.  If Josh took a sack or threw to a guy at the 5 yard line I would have a bigger issue with it.  There was enough there to take the chance IMO.

 

THis play was really interesting on hard knocks, one of the DB's said on mic...."if he throws it to a slant Im gonna let him catch it".  So the Dolphins were ready for this and it worked out good for them.

If that play was any time but the final play of a half, that helmet to helmet hit gets called 100%

[bouds]

That was a hell of a catch by Johnson too, doubt any other back makes that play including overrated Lenny.

[Matt_In_NH]

2 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

If that play was any time but the final play of a half, that helmet to helmet hit gets called 100%

nah

[Lieutenant Aldo Raine]

Here's the deal.  Everyone forget Josh to James Cook last year with 8 Seconds left before halftime?

 

https://youtu.be/hxrSCTq4GBY?si=Eb6GgMzDxyR6WKdW

 

Bottom line:  If you don't want Josh to make a play, then you tell him so (pre-huddle) to burn a few seconds and then throw it away.  If you don't give him those DIRECT instructions, then the playmaker is going to try and make a play if one is to be had.  The play was "that close", just great closure and tackle by the defender.  

 

If McDermott wants to act like a whiny toad, then you as the coach, TAKE CONTROL of the situation.  

Edited January 11 by Lieutenant Aldo Raine

[Pete]

37 minutes ago, Bermuda Triangle said:

 

Why isn’t one WR at least in the end zone?  Who is Josh supposed to throw to?

[Hsker4life]

1. Yes, JA shouldn’t have made that throw

2. Yes, it should have been a flag 

[MikePJ76]

19 minutes ago, Matt_In_NH said:

I thought helmet to helmet is mostly called for defenseless players.  He caught it and was an aggressor.  What is the defender supposed to do there to keep him out?

No.  Helmet to Helmet is an automatic penalty.  Its different than the defenseless player rule.

 

The league has been over the top about head protection and call really minor dings and then in the final game of the season with everyone watching a major helmet to helmet...he committed the penalty basically exactly to a T on how they call it....he lowered his head and led with his helmet and made direct contact to Johnsons head.  the player was injured from the hit.  No Penalty.

 

had everything been exactly the opposite and Tua hit Hill and Poyer lowered his helmet and went head to head it would have been called and had it not it would be getting talked about 24/7 that the dolphins got robbed of points by a dirty player.

 

For some reason NBC didn't mention it, barely showed the replay and never brought it up in the postgame.  Pretty ridiculous

Edited January 10 by MikePJ76

[Royale with Cheese]

28 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Instant pressure on a QB, either from around the end into his blind side or up the middle, often leads to fumbles in college & pro football. 

 

Allen was throwing to where he thought Davis would be to beat a zero blitz.  It's disingenuous to claim he was throwing to nobody.

 

Over the years I have seen many QBs throw the ball to the one yard line at the end of a game or half with no TO's.  More often then not, the guy gets into the end zone.  In this case the Dolphin defenders made a great play - they do get paid to.  And if the flag had been thrown and we had an untimed down from the 1 yard line do you think we would have gone for it or kicked the FG? My sense is we  would have gone for it meaning that scoring a TD and not kicking the FG was the goal at that point on that drive.

 

 

 

I never said he was throwing to nobody.  I have said I don't know what Davis was supposed to do so I won't say who was at "fault".

 

Which was my point.  The stat sheet says fumble Allen but I would put that mostly on Torrence.

[Shaw66]

I was fine with the decision by Josh.   In retrospect of course, it cost the Bills a field goal, and I get the argument that therefore the throw needs to go into the end zone. But in the moment, that was a play that looked like a touchdown.  A throw to a running back on the two, on the run, is almost always a TD.  You have to trust your teammates to make plays.  Josh made that decision.  The Dolphins just made a better play.