DORSEY FIRED, Joe Brady Interim OC

[Patrick Duffy]

11 minutes ago, Beast said:

Don’t know.

Does Terry revel in the accomplishment of breaking the drought and building a contender that never finished its business?

 

We shall see.

 

19 minutes ago, Wayne Arnold said:

 

Question is - does Beane stay on and is he the one who fires his partner? Or does Pegula fire them both? Does Pegula have the ballz to do that? I'm skeptical.

 

My educated guess would be Beane stays for the moment  (benefit of the doubt earning a short leash for drafting Allen) but won't take very much for him to get sent packing too 

[Big Turk]

8 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

I noticed that guys hand during the game last night, but just thought it was a massive scab from a cut. Is pine tar actually illegal in the NFL ? With all the stick 'em they allow on gloves you'd think they wouldn't care. 

 

[4BillsintheBurgh]

16 minutes ago, DCBongo said:

Dorseys play calling was not consistent.  He took away scripted QB runs, he never took Josh on.  Daboll would reem him when needed and pump him up when deflated.  I hope Brady stays on the sidelines so he can talk with Josh instead of QB1 sitting alone and looking despondent.

The stat for me was when they showed our -11 point scoring deficit in the 1st quarter. That speaks to the scripted plays which have been designed by him and practiced all week aren't working. That's a huge problem. No momentum built, just nothing helping about that. Hopefully Brady has some different ideas, but all that should have already been tossed out there when they went over the game plan. Maybe Brady will be able to make the right choices.

[cgg716]

7 minutes ago, Bob Jones said:

Why? Is the coach hitting those short punts? How about on the coverage of punts….are the players not responsible for staying in their lanes, shedding blocks, and making good tackles?

 

This Bills team is FILLED with players who DO NOT execute….DO NOT DO THEIR JOBS….on game days. Have been seeing it ALL YEAR LONG. Yes, coaching is integral to a successful team, BUT there is only so much the coaches can do. Like I’ve said a few times in here recently, it looks like a lot of these players are just in it for the paycheck, and could not care less whether they win or lose. Missing the playoffs means more time off for them, and I’m certain many players are just fine with that.

But when a team is built exactly how the coach wants it, character over talent, quickness over size, 18 defensive lineman. This team is a reflection of its coach, and his old, tired, philosophy 

[Green Lightning]

2 minutes ago, Patrick Duffy said:

 

 

My educated guess would be Beane stays for the moment  (benefit of the doubt earning a short leash for drafting Allen) but won't take very much for him to get sent packing too 

If Beane stays perhaps he may learn that OLs are important and that 10 crap Jags is less than 5 quality players.

[nedboy7]

I cant wait for the fire Brady posts after next game. 

[kota]

Dorsey has consistently failed to adjust on the fly during games.  the only time the Bills have been able to move the ball is in Hurry up when Josh has more control over the play calling.  it's very obvious.  there has been a number of times where the play comes in late which has been mentioned by the players.  Josh needs the call early so he has more time to assess the defense.

The 2nd INT where josh threw a terrible pass to Hardy.  He shouldn't have thrown it but why are you throwing an out route to a guy that's like 5'8 or something.  
where are all the cross patterns.  Where is Gabe Davis?  

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, nedboy7 said:

I cant wait for the fire Brady posts after next game. 

 

I dont think any reasonable Bills fan is expecting a midstream turnaround by an interim OC. I expect the offense to look similar to what we've seen.

 

But I do expect/want to see our execution and engagement to improve.

 

Do the guys look focused? Do they look like they're having fun? Or at least look like they want to be there?

 

The rest is all fluff to get us through the rest of this season so we can re-tool in the offseason.

[CincyBillsFan]

4 minutes ago, 4BillsintheBurgh said:

The stat for me was when they showed our -11 point scoring deficit in the 1st quarter. That speaks to the scripted plays which have been designed by him and practiced all week aren't working. That's a huge problem. No momentum built, just nothing helping about that. Hopefully Brady has some different ideas, but all that should have already been tossed out there when they went over the game plan. Maybe Brady will be able to make the right choices.

It also shows a bad form of negative complimentary football between the O & D.  Part of that differential is the D allowing the other team to score 1st quarter points.  Remember Cincinnati, LV & NE.

 

 

[FireChans]

58 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

In 1999, Brett Favre had 21 TDs and 22 INTs. That's bad.

We don’t live in 1999

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, kota said:

Dorsey has consistently failed to adjust on the fly during games.  the only time the Bills have been able to move the ball is in Hurry up when Josh has more control over the play calling.  it's very obvious.  there has been a number of times where the play comes in late which has been mentioned by the players.  Josh needs the call early so he has more time to assess the defense.

The 2nd INT where josh threw a terrible pass to Hardy.  He shouldn't have thrown it but why are you throwing an out route to a guy that's like 5'8 or something.  
where are all the cross patterns.  Where is Gabe Davis?  

 

5'6".

 

He's LISTED at 5'6" where they always err to make a player look better.

 

And we have him running an intermediate/deep out at the boundary...

 

Complete incompetence in personnel usage and play design.

[Low Positive]

Just now, FireChans said:

We don’t live in 1999

In 2019, Mr. Crablegs himself Famous Jameis Winston threw for over 5,000 yards with 33 TD and 30 INTs. I'm not even trying to make a point here. I just love that stat line.

[Big Turk]

5 minutes ago, kota said:

Dorsey has consistently failed to adjust on the fly during games.  the only time the Bills have been able to move the ball is in Hurry up when Josh has more control over the play calling.  it's very obvious.  there has been a number of times where the play comes in late which has been mentioned by the players.  Josh needs the call early so he has more time to assess the defense.

The 2nd INT where josh threw a terrible pass to Hardy.  He shouldn't have thrown it but why are you throwing an out route to a guy that's like 5'8 or something.  
where are all the cross patterns.  Where is Gabe Davis?  

 

My issue is why is Allen continuing to make the same bad throws?  That INT to Hardy was the exact same throw he tried to throw to Davis against the Bengals last game that got picked too.

 

The almost INT on the 2nd play of the game to Kincaid for the Bills was the same play Allen threw an INT to Knox against the Pats.  It's like he keeps doing the same thing regardless of if it actually works or not.  WTF is he doing?

Edited November 14, 2023 by Big Turk

[Don Otreply]

2 hours ago, Bruffalo said:

The playcalling decisions were just as questionable as the scheme, maybe more so.  It felt like Dorsey was picking them at random instead of trying to establish a gameflow. 

Dorsey doesn’t do game flow, he doesn’t fully understand that one play should support the next play called, etc etc etc, many former QB talking heads have spoken to this topic,  it’s why we appear disjointed on offense, well that and execution, 

[HappyDays]

2 hours ago, HoofHearted said:

there were multiple times again last night that Josh looked to the opposite side of the field than what I thought he should. Picking man match-ups is one thing, but vs zone play the concept side - thought this was an Allen mistake thing, but I do wonder if this move means it was being coached that way...

 

I have been wondering this for a few weeks now. Like in that Dan Orlovsky clip going around about the 4th and 2 from last night, I have seen people criticize Josh for not looking to Kincaid on the zone beater side after the pre-snap motion clearly indicated zone. But there's no way Josh just chose to ignore that. Anybody that has played Madden knows that the motion indicated zone. Josh as a long time NFL QB clearly would have known that too. So I have trouble blaming him for that read because there's just no way he would unintentionally look away from his zone beater side and follow a different set of progressions. None of it makes any sense. And I have seen similarly bizarre reads several times this year, so ultimately something had to change.

[WideNine]

38 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

They reined him in exactly like they wanted to. It's made him worse.

 

It's like trying to keep a Great White shark in captivity. It's never worked.

 

 

I don't know how reigning him in equates to underthrown passes to the boundary that are inside the receiver where they should never be thrown.

 

That pass on those comeback routes has to have heat on it and be outside the receiver towards the boundary.

 

It's not like Allen has not thrown those before. He and Davis made a living off those passes where Davis would keep his toes in bounds making those grabs.

 

His deep ball accuracy has dropped considerably too.

 

His throwing has regressed, could be injury-related or lack of practice and reps, but that has little to do with Allen running or not.

 

 

Edited November 14, 2023 by WideNine

[BillsSbSoon]

27 minutes ago, CincyBillsFan said:

I'll offer a counter bit of speculation here: the idea that Allen "hired" Dorsey was way overblown.  The evidence fits that Allen was okay with Dorey being promoted but there is no proof that I've seen that Allen advocated for him over say another highly respected and talented O coordinator.

 

Again this is pure speculation but maybe all McD offered up to Allen was to promote Dorsey and Allen was "hey that sounds great".  So what would McD's motivation be for wanting Dorsey promoted rather then bringing someone in from outside One Bills Drive? To start with Dorsey is going to be a lot more pliable to doing what McD wants then some outside OC who would only take the job with some promises of having autonomy in play calling and offensive design.  You know someone who would be like DaBoll and be a thorn in McD's side. McD's recent public comments about his view of what the offense should look like and how it should compliment his D supports the notion that the last thing McD wanted was an ornery, independent thinking OC. 

 

 

McDermott isn’t going to hire someone that is going to upstage him. He has to be in control. All the time. He knew that Dorsey was someone who wasn’t a real threat to him. 

[FireChans]

9 minutes ago, Low Positive said:

In 2019, Mr. Crablegs himself Famous Jameis Winston threw for over 5,000 yards with 33 TD and 30 INTs. I'm not even trying to make a point here. I just love that stat line.

Yeah that was a horrible year lol. 30 INTs is ridiculous 

[Bruffalo]

14 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont think any reasonable Bills fan is expecting a midstream turnaround by an interim OC. I expect the offense to look similar to what we've seen.

 

But I do expect/want to see our execution and engagement to improve.

 

Do the guys look focused? Do they look like they're having fun? Or at least look like they want to be there?

 

The rest is all fluff to get us through the rest of this season so we can re-tool in the offseason.

The logical head to call for next is McDermott anyways. 

[FireChans]

15 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I dont think any reasonable Bills fan is expecting a midstream turnaround by an interim OC. I expect the offense to look similar to what we've seen.

 

But I do expect/want to see our execution and engagement to improve.

 

Do the guys look focused? Do they look like they're having fun? Or at least look like they want to be there?

 

The rest is all fluff to get us through the rest of this season so we can re-tool in the offseason.

My expectation is a complete simplification, with a lot bread and butter stuff that our guys can execute.

 

Similar to when Lynn took over from Roman, and basically chopped the playbook in half, and said “when we run these plays, we get 5 YPC, so that’s what we’re calling now.”

[Roundybout]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I have been wondering this for a few weeks now. Like in that Dan Orlovsky clip going around about the 4th and 2 from last night, I have seen people criticize Josh for not looking to Kincaid on the zone beater side after the pre-snap motion clearly indicated zone. But there's no way Josh just chose to ignore that. Anybody that has played Madden knows that the motion indicated zone. Josh as a long time NFL QB clearly would have known that too. So I have trouble blaming him for that read because there's just no way he would unintentionally look away from his zone beater side and follow a different set of progressions. None of it makes any sense. And I have seen similarly bizarre reads several times this year, so ultimately something had to change.

I forget who had it, one of the analysis guys, but Dorsey’s system of reads is apparently backwards from what Daboll did. Josh is asked to scan a different part of the field first. 

[K-9]

Good move. One less voice in Josh’s ear, but still too many with the presence of Mike Shula still on the team. I voiced the concern over the “too many chefs” approach during OTAs in ‘22 and I stand by the thought today.

[chongli]

 

[Perry Turtle]

4 minutes ago, Big Turk said:

 

My issue is why is Allen continuing to make the same bad throws?  That INT to Hardy was the exact same throw he tried to throw to Davis against the Bengals last game that got picked too.

 

The almost INT on the 2nd play of the game to Kincaid for the Bills was the same play Allen threw an INT to Knox against the Pats.  It's like he keeps doing the same thing regardless of if it actually works or not.  WTF is he doing?

Bad decision by Allen on the Harty int, but the play call was worse, especially for the game situation.

 

Bills had the ball with 45 seconds left and no TOs.  They were trying to drive for points.  In that situation a chunk play to the sideline is the way to go.  Gain yards early and kill the clock.

 

With that in mind, Denver was playing dime or dollar coverage; a bunch of DBs, off the ball.

 

Knowing all of this, Dorsey called a smash (hi-lo) concept, which is a cover 2 beater, almost the same call as the pick last week.  

 

So the slot receiver, the low, guy runs an out, to draw the CB in. Problem is , with 45 seconds left, the CB doesn't give a s### about the short route, so he hangs back.

 

The high receiver Harty, is supposed to be in the gap caused by the CB drawn in, but there is no gap.  And to make matters worse, this route is usually a go, route, giving the option for the WR to beat the deeper coverage, but Dorsey turned this route into an out, which drew the high and low DBs to Harty, plus an additional DB, because Denver wasn't defending this cover 2 beater with a cover 2 defense.

 

So, no doubt Allen made a poor decision, but Dorsey couldn't have called a worse play to gain yards on the sideline at that point in the game.

 

And that sums up the Dorsey era.  The QB making too many bad decisions in too many poorly called plays.

[Scott7975]

Someone needs to tell McD that EPA says we have the best offense in the league.

 

In all seriousness, I dunno who didn't see this coming. This is not the right offense for Josh or any of our guys for that matter. I am so sick of hearing how complicated it is.  It's so complicated that your guys can't execute and that has been a problem since last season.  This should have changed weeks ago.  My guess is that it is actually changing now because McD is on the hotseat and he needs a turnaround.  Not likely gonna have one though.  Too late in the season for that and does Joe Brady even have all that much experience either?

Edited November 14, 2023 by Scott7975

[T master]

I'd say that McD & Beane aren't liking losing & this to me is showing the doubters here they won't stand for it and neither will the Pegs !!

 

 If you can't do it with this kind of talent i'll get someone who can & while were at it i'll let everybody know you are being held accountable for your results !!

 

Lets hope Brady can be that guy to turn this around !! GO BILLS ...

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, What a Tuel said:

Dorsey gets fired bc:

 

1: Cook cant hold onto the ball

2: Davis cant hold onto the ball.

3: Josh throws into double coverage

4: Josh drops a handoff on the ground

5: Def (which was stellar) commits PI at end of game

6: Def (which was stellar) has 12 men on the field.

 

Sounds like players arent executing to me.

 

Dorsey is responsible for running a system that gets them to execute.  He's had over a year and a half to do so.  It wasn't working.  When you hear at least 3 times from 3 different players over two years, including Diggs, that it's the most complicated offense they ever seen and they can't execute it then it needs to change.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

11 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

 

 

Who's the right person?

[Nextmanup]

4 hours ago, drummernut74 said:

McD in full on C.Y.A mode now

Dorsey was appointed OC in the first place for this day...to be a human shield to keep McDermott in his job a little longer if/when things don't go well.

 

A cynical move that won't fix our problems....

 

But it might hasten McD's demise.

 

[What a Tuel]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Dorsey is responsible for running a system that gets them to execute.  He's had over a year and a half to do so.  It wasn't working.  When you hear at least 3 times from 3 different players over two years, including Diggs, that it's the most complicated offense they ever seen and they can't execute it then it needs to change.

 

In my listed scenarios, what do you want Dorsey to do? More ball control drills for Cook? Handoff drills for Allen? Practicing catching for Davis?

 

The one out of 4 offensive debacles ill give you is Allen throwing into double coverage, because it feels like every Bills WR is double covered which seems impossible.

[Koufax]

This move is clearly one of the best we can make, and should have been made eight days ago with the long week to get ready for a beatable Broncos team, and is much harder with a short week against Jets followed by a really tough road game.

 

Either way, Dorsey was not guiding this offense to its potential. Enough leeway already and a change had to be made. I don't view this as reactionary only, but also substantive as he had been really failing to accomplish what he needed to and maximizing production.

[HoofHearted]

11 minutes ago, Perry Turtle said:

Bad decision by Allen on the Harty int, but the play call was worse, especially for the game situation.

 

Bills had the ball with 45 seconds left and no TOs.  They were trying to drive for points.  In that situation a chunk play to the sideline is the way to go.  Gain yards early and kill the clock.

 

With that in mind, Denver was playing dime or dollar coverage; a bunch of DBs, off the ball.

 

Knowing all of this, Dorsey called a smash (hi-lo) concept, which is a cover 2 beater, almost the same call as the pick last week.  

 

So the slot receiver, the low, guy runs an out, to draw the CB in. Problem is , with 45 seconds left, the CB doesn't give a s### about the short route, so he hangs back.

 

The high receiver Harty, is supposed to be in the gap caused by the CB drawn in, but there is no gap.  And to make matters worse, this route is usually a go, route, giving the option for the WR to beat the deeper coverage, but Dorsey turned this route into an out, which drew the high and low DBs to Harty, plus an additional DB, because Denver wasn't defending this cover 2 beater with a cover 2 defense.

 

So, no doubt Allen made a poor decision, but Dorsey couldn't have called a worse play to gain yards on the sideline at that point in the game.

 

And that sums up the Dorsey era.  The QB making too many bad decisions in too many poorly called plays.

It wasn’t a Smash concept - it was just a deep out vs. Quarters coverage. Any out or comeback is a Quarters beater. The route to the flat was just a delayed check-down not meant to pull coverage.

[Heitz]

15 minutes ago, chongli said:

 

Let's make sure this is posted on every page of the thread 🤣

 

Who gives a care what Spain says?  How much better did he get with another team?  Also, McD is probably the one that cut him (wasn't Dorsey the QB coach when Spain was here?), so naturally he's going to be like F that guy...  

[Scott7975]

3 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

In my listed scenarios, what do you want Dorsey to do? More ball control drills for Cook? Handoff drills for Allen? Practicing catching for Davis?

 

The one out of 4 offensive debacles ill give you is Allen throwing into double coverage, because it feels like every Bills WR is double covered which seems impossible.

 

I want him to dumb down an offense that is "the most complicated offense I have ever seen - players" and help them execute.  Design an offense that suits your players instead of just using the only thing he knew.  If it wasn't painfully obvious that something needed to change then I dunno what to tell you.  This isn't just about this week.  Its about the last year or so.  Something is broken on offense and it starts with him.  Can't just keep going through week after week just hoping a switch flips.  A switch never flips.

Edited November 14, 2023 by Scott7975

[schoolhouserock]

4 hours ago, boyst said:

For those who don't know, I will say some things I've said before. It's on you to weigh it but...

 

Daboll was fed up with the way McDermott meddled with things. McDermott didn't earn respect and wasn't liked by many players, in turn daboll earned respect from the offense who bought into him. This caused a rift between McDermotts "process" and Dabolls calm zen like approach that guided our offense. Think back how relaxed we were.

 

With 13 seconds the trust daboll had earned shown in how that offense went out and executed precisely as a top team should with great talent. They were all in on trusting Daboll to put them in a position to win. McDermott had been over the shoulder much of the season with Frazier that year. As the game got tight at closing some felt as if McDermott took his hands off the wheel a little and lost composure/control. Frazier did a lot in those last minutes. The kickoff has McDermott coaching one thing but not the ST who had the kickoff and coverage out of sync. 

 

Players knew this. They were told all their career in Buffalo that there was a process and trust. And accountability. There were fights in the lockerroom and on the way back. To my knowledge no physical assaults, but peoppe pulled apart.

 

This was not even the first eyebrow raising issue. That was 2017 and the Peterman 5 pick game in SD. The entire team was against it. Team Captains told coach they didn't want it. Peterman comes in and throws 5 picks. By halftime players have texted a few friends and folks some pretty harsh words. No one could explain it. It was easily forgotten when we made the playoffs. Easily forgotten now.

 

Going back to 13 seconds - you can look at some interesting tidbits: Spain and coach argued, Hughes always being in the doghouse for no reason, Beasley completely abandoned and not supported to be himself, Araiza dropped, Levi Wallace getting tossed as a scapegoat, many others.

 

The lockeroom has a divide in the lockerroom that doesn't trust McDermott. That's part of the reason some players are here and stick/stuck (Lee Smith, AJ Klein).

 

There is a lot there that was seen and known by people around and left, even if we didn't like them. I would honestly love if Whaley came out and weighed in on his personal thoughts - it'd be a treat for that to be public. 

Daboll and zen are two concepts that don’t belong together.

 

I can see trust, however.

[Bruffalo]

McDermott on the radio right now giving his best non-answers about the coaching change.  What a joke. 

[DaggersEOD]

1 hour ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

He was an English explorer who famously led an expedition to Antarctica in 1914.  The weather turned cold earlier than expected and their ship was crushed by pack ice.  They had no way to return home or call for help and lived for months on ice floes and, later, a frozen little island with no provisions.  Thanks to Shackleton's leadership, the crew survived for roughly a year before Shackleton managed to get them rescued.  The details of the story are remarkable.  Not only did Shackleton keep his crew alive in near-impossible conditions, he also kept their spirits high and maintained a harmonious atmosphere despite the fact that any reasonable person in that situation would have thought death was their probable fate.  

Hmmmm I say let’s kick the tires on this one!

[What a Tuel]

Just now, Scott7975 said:

 

I want him to dumb down an offense that is "the most complicated offense I have ever seen - players" and help them execute.  Design an offense that suits your players instead of just using the only thing he knew.  If it wasn't painfully obvious that something needed to change then I dunno what to tell you.  This is just about this week.  Its about the last year or so.  Something is broken on offense and it starts with him.  Can't just keep going through week after week just hoping a switch flips.  A switch never flips.

 

Players are saying its too complicated? The general consensus on the board is that it is too bland and basic and defenses key in on it. 

[Norcalbillsfan]

24 minutes ago, FireChans said:

My expectation is a complete simplification, with a lot bread and butter stuff that our guys can execute.

 

Similar to when Lynn took over from Roman, and basically chopped the playbook in half, and said “when we run these plays, we get 5 YPC, so that’s what we’re calling now.”

Agreed, it's a pretty perfect situation for Brady (other than facing the jets D). He's getting a healthy offense at its rock bottom, he can go in and scheme some simple run game to play action and at least make it look like the offense is semi competent and it's a win for him.

[FireChans]

7 minutes ago, Nextmanup said:

Dorsey was appointed OC in the first place for this day...to be a human shield to keep McDermott in his job a little longer if/when things don't go well.

 

A cynical move that won't fix our problems....

 

But it might hasten McD's demise.

 

What?