DORSEY FIRED, Joe Brady Interim OC

[Patrick Duffy]

It's a start which was much needed. Now we'll see how this plays out on whether McD will follow in the near future or not

[Freak-O]

5 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

If you win the coin toss plz differ you McDumbass

You mean “defer”? 

[Patrick Duffy]

Just now, 34-30 said:

Has anyone considered that perhaps this is just who Allen IS and that coaching has hidden it up to this point?

 

Who Allen is? He is a QB that uses his legs and now no longer does and there's a reason for that

[Dan Darragh]

37 minutes ago, From Roc to Ky bills fan said:

All due respect appoo, Superbowl windows are a young man's game...

Don't tell that to Elway or Peyton

[Ridgewaycynic2013]

4 minutes ago, nedboy7 said:

Not realistic to fire the OC, DC and HC in one day.  That would be so dumb. 

Not if your QB is Billy Joe Hobert.  He just wings it.

[Bruffalo]

2 minutes ago, 34-30 said:

Has anyone considered that perhaps this is just who Allen IS and that coaching has hidden it up to this point?

Allen literally has been the entire offense for multiple seasons, but yeah, totally, it's the coaching that's made him look good.

 

This has to be one of the worst takes I've seen on here today. 

[Mango]

3 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No, the playoff numbers are TOTAL turnovers because Allen has 0 playoff fumbles.  Allen has 20 TD's to 4 total turnovers in 8 playoff games...literally double the TD-TO ratio of Burrow who only has 10 TD's with 4 Turnovers.  

 

I mentioned INT's in the regular season because that is all anyone is talking about with Allen right now, interceptions.  Yes he had some fumbles which makes his turnovers stats higher, but he was also being run like a FB for several years.  

 

No one is saying Allen doesn't need to be better at taking care of the ball, the point is the two guys commonly rated above him in Mahomes and Burrow have had a lot more to work with and only thrown a few less INT's than Allen in the regular season coming into this year.  And Allen had a lot more working against him those 2 years too with an OC change, injury to his throwing arm, bad weather at home, and less talent to work with.  

 

And come playoff time, turnovers are NOT the reason the Bills have been eliminated from the playoffs...not once has it been because of an Allen turnover.  

 

Playoff numbers? You are putting a lot of changing variables and brackets around data sets. I think if you want to talk about Allen's turnovers you have to zoom out, not zoom in, include some turn overs but not others, then include all turn overs but only certain games. Now I do agree he has had stretches where he didn't turn the ball over. But overall, the pattern has been that he tends to revert back to it. I think this is why it is frustrating because there are these moments of brilliance. 

 

Also, the Houston game is at least in part on Josh Allen and his turnovers. His very fist playoff game. 

I don't understand the need to dig your heels in on this. I gave you credit in my response. But I also said a lot of things are true at the same time, including some deficiencies at QB. 

[SectionC3]

54 minutes ago, boyst said:

For those who don't know, I will say some things I've said before. It's on you to weigh it but...

 

Daboll was fed up with the way McDermott meddled with things. McDermott didn't earn respect and wasn't liked by many players, in turn daboll earned respect from the offense who bought into him. This caused a rift between McDermotts "process" and Dabolls calm zen like approach that guided our offense. Think back how relaxed we were.

 

With 13 seconds the trust daboll had earned shown in how that offense went out and executed precisely as a top team should with great talent. They were all in on trusting Daboll to put them in a position to win. McDermott had been over the shoulder much of the season with Frazier that year. As the game got tight at closing some felt as if McDermott took his hands off the wheel a little and lost composure/control. Frazier did a lot in those last minutes. The kickoff has McDermott coaching one thing but not the ST who had the kickoff and coverage out of sync. 

 

Players knew this. They were told all their career in Buffalo that there was a process and trust. And accountability. There were fights in the lockerroom and on the way back. To my knowledge no physical assaults, but peoppe pulled apart.

 

This was not even the first eyebrow raising issue. That was 2017 and the Peterman 5 pick game in SD. The entire team was against it. Team Captains told coach they didn't want it. Peterman comes in and throws 5 picks. By halftime players have texted a few friends and folks some pretty harsh words. No one could explain it. It was easily forgotten when we made the playoffs. Easily forgotten now.

 

Going back to 13 seconds - you can look at some interesting tidbits: Spain and coach argued, Hughes always being in the doghouse for no reason, Beasley completely abandoned and not supported to be himself, Araiza dropped, Levi Wallace getting tossed as a scapegoat, many others.

 

The lockeroom has a divide in the lockerroom that doesn't trust McDermott. That's part of the reason some players are here and stick/stuck (Lee Smith, AJ Klein).

 

There is a lot there that was seen and known by people around and left, even if we didn't like them. I would honestly love if Whaley came out and weighed in on his personal thoughts - it'd be a treat for that to be public. 

This is second hand from someone on the plane home, and I posted it here earlier.  Apparently it was a wild ride home, with a huge range of emotions from crying to screaming to yelling at coaches to guys punching seats out.  Offense blaming defense, people screaming at each other.  Just bonkers.  That account was in the back of my mind last year, and I wondered how McD could recover from that given that nobody ever really accepted responsibility for that mess.  

 

I’ll add another layer about accountability.  Imagine that, after the 13 second fiasco, you plod through last year and one of your superstars is having off-field drama that culminates in someone scorned dropping a certain bomb to the family the night before a playoff game and a late night three ring circus at home afterwards.  Imagine, too, if that wasn’t dealt with to the satisfaction of another superstar who had his fill of the nonsense and the lack of accountability for said nonsense and it becomes easy to see how the whole “process” thing in the eyes of many is a bit of a sham.  

 

I know people here think Daboll is a lousy head coach, and maybe they’re right.  But that guy gets the vibe around here, the players respect him, and I have long sensed that they feel like the wrong one left after 13 seconds.  He’s about what we need right now in making this a fun place to go to work again.  Because I get the sense that nobody enjoys spending time in the office right now. 

[davefan66]

3 minutes ago, 34-30 said:

Has anyone considered that perhaps this is just who Allen IS and that coaching has hidden it up to this point?

Allen is a top tier QB in the league.  Period.

[hondo in seattle]

9 minutes ago, crappyjazz said:

I want to understand how elevating the QB coach who was you know, coaching Josh, to OC will help? Obviously he hasn't been doing a good job with Josh.

 

It's a good question.  

 

Maybe what McD saw was Dorsey ignoring input from his assistants, or McD, or both.  Maybe McD liked some of the ideas that Brady was floating that Dorsey was squashing.  We just don't know.  

[TAinLack.]

1 minute ago, Dan Darragh said:

Don't tell that to Elway or Peyton

...or Brady!

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

3 minutes ago, Freak-O said:

You mean “defer”? 

Yep, that’s what I meant. Spell check used Differ for some reason. 

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, 34-30 said:

Has anyone considered that perhaps this is just who Allen IS and that coaching has hidden it up to this point?

then let’s get a coach who can hide it. 
 

[LeGOATski]

This has been a long time coming, it's not a sudden reaction to the Denver loss. They gave Dorsey plenty of time to fix it. As soon as the offense started struggling many weeks ago we heard McDermott comment on it during the halftime interviews and we had Josh saying "I just run the plays that are called" in his post game interview.... They gave Dorsey a chance, but they obviously needed to make a change. Despite what some say about McDermott, he doesn't shy away from making that change when the time comes.

[Paup 1995MVP]

8 minutes ago, appoo said:

we’ve all been following the Beane and McDermott relationship right? It actually feels like one of the best in the NFL. Beane’s primary job is to get players needed to fulfill a vision of winning a Super Bowl based on certain base concepts of what you want your defense and offense to look like.

 

McDermotts job is to execute that vision with the players he’s provided by specifically setting schemes on both sides of the ball, while filling out his coaching staff to help him get there.

 

The reality is these two men influence each other greatly and I doubt much big picture stuff happens without them collaborating. While Beane will have final say on player personnel and contracts, and McDermott has final say on his coaches and how he uses those players, this isn’t done in a vacuum.

 

With Dorse, that’s McDermotts decision, but I gotta imagine he talked it over with Beane before making a final choice.

 

But all in all this seems like a really great relationship and one isn’t gonna disrespect the other in terms of overstepping responsibilities in a vacuum

Great relationships don't always lead to great results.  A certain friction/tension between higher ups gets more out of people.  Great relationships lead to complacency.  And that is what has happened with our organization.  Good is good enough.  It doesn't have to be great.  If the Bills were shooting for greatness they would have gotten rid of Frazier at the least after 13 seconds.  McDermott is not an innovator.  He thinks smaller is better on defense.  I have news for him playing DB's continuously at LB gets you run over, and your defense out of gas every week at the ends of games like last night, and in the Giants Bucs Pats and Bengals games. 

 

If I am Beane I am distancing myself fast from McDermott.  

[WideNine]

I am old enough to remember how folks got fed up with Wade Phillips and pushed for his exit and we went through 2 decades of terrible HCs.

Not saying Wade did not have his blind spots - he did, but the org definitely took several steps backwards when he left. Sometimes it is about where someone fits best to do the best job they can do. I think McD is better suited as a HC that is more focused on managing the coaches and staff and ensuring QC for the team. As he has become more involved with the defense the overall quality of the team preparation and ability to execute in all 3 phases has trended downward.

Before he is run out the door with pitchforks and torches the organization may be better served going back to a formula that was working. And that was having a DC who could get in the weeds of preparing that side of the ball, and OC that is a proven offensive coach that can manage that side of the team while McD manages the overall team quality and coordination.

Dorsey was going to be held accountable for an offense that has taken steps backwards and that is a tough lesson for Allen who is the key piece of executing his offense. At the end of the day the performance of the players on offense really does affect the jobs and careers of coaches and coordinators.

 

[HoofHearted]

5 minutes ago, Bruffalo said:

I'm not going to pretend that the players aren't without some blame here, but to me it's tiny in comparison to the coaching staff.  

A not insignificant amount of Dorsey's playcalls never worked, and he kept hammering those same calls every game!  He was incapable of self-evaluating and saying "well this play hasn't worked for the guys on the field".  Maybe the plays are awesome for a different set of players or a different QB, I don't know, but I do know that Josh has had similar interceptions for the past few games in a row and Dorsey would stubbornly go right back to them. It's beyond frustrating. 

 

Allen's "I'm executing the plays as called" is very telling. 

Which ones? I'm genuinely asking.

[Fan in Chicago]

6 minutes ago, 34-30 said:

Has anyone considered that perhaps this is just who Allen IS and that coaching has hidden it up to this point?

Have you considered that Allen's disinterest stemmed from a toxic relationship with Dorsey? 

We don't know the root cause of Allen's sudden decline but there is no other single factor which was evident. 

[hondo in seattle]

Just now, davefan66 said:

Allen is a top tier QB in the league.  Period.

 

I agree... with a qualifier.  

 

I'd say that Allen is a top-tier QB with the right coaching. 

 

I think Allen would set records under Andy Reid, for example.  But I don't think every NFL HC or OC would know how to optimize Allen's strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  

[ALLinALLEN]

Just now, Fan in Chicago said:

Have you considered that Allen's disinterest stemmed from a toxic relationship with Dorsey? 

We don't know the root cause of Allen's sudden decline but there is no other single factor which was evident. 

This is what I'm thinking. The presser last night in the final question Allen ignores looks like he wants to say something but doesnt, and it looked like it alludes to this.

[Niagara Dude]

2 minutes ago, davefan66 said:

Allen is a top tier QB in the league.  Period.

Beane and McDermott have been milking Allen and allocating a majority of resources including high draft picks and cap money to defensive side. Until McDERMOTT is fired they will always look or lean towards cavemen football Also can Beanne stop keeping loser players on this roster for special teams,  we waste roster spots and cap space on these guys and they just don't offer much at all.

[Best Williams Available]

1 hour ago, phypon said:

McD running out of people to throw under the bus.  Tick, tick, tick...

I can’t wait til he’s so mad the D blew another game late, that he fires the DC mid press conference.

[Murdox]

Easy to see what is going on.  McDermott is now in the hot seat.  If they don't perform the rest of the season and finish 7-10, for example, he's gone.  100% guaranteed.  Next week will be a very big game for McDermott. 

 

When your top-5 QB performs far worse than he has in the last several years, it falls on the coaches.  They need to make sure Josh is phyically and mentally ready to perform on the field and they have failed this year.  The rest of the offense is similarly suffering.

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 minute ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Have you considered that Allen's disinterest stemmed from a toxic relationship with Dorsey? 

We don't know the root cause of Allen's sudden decline but there is no other single factor which was evident. 

Not being in the room with these guys I can only speculate that Allen, and Diggs, and who knows who else, were unhappy with the game plans, strategy, and play calls to the point they started to check out on game day.  And now with Dorsey gone there's no place for anyone to hide.  How they rally and improve to make it interesting or just crap their pants down the stretch is going to tell us a lot about the team. 

[billsfanmd07]

7 minutes ago, Ridgewaycynic2013 said:

Not if your QB is Billy Joe Hobert.  He just wings it.

Im pretty sure I was at that game....Preseason game in Baltimore where he admitted he never learend playbook

[Nephilim17]

[davefan66]

1 minute ago, hondo in seattle said:

 

I agree... with a qualifier.  

 

I'd say that Allen is a top-tier QB with the right coaching. 

 

I think Allen would set records under Andy Reid, for example.  But I don't think every NFL HC or OC would know how to optimize Allen's strengths while minimizing his weaknesses.  

The best coaches are the ones who scheme to their players strengths. This wasn’t happening this year.

 

Josh’s stats this year are top of the league.  Shows he is very good despite coaching.  Imagine what could be if we had competent coaching?  
 

Feel like we are wasting an amazing talent.

[DuckyBoys]

3 minutes ago, WideNine said:

I am old enough to remember how folks got fed up with Wade Phillips and pushed for his exit and we went through 2 decades of terrible HCs.

Not saying Wade did not have his blind spots - he did, but the org definitely took several steps backwards when he left. Sometimes it is about where someone fits best to do the best job they can do. I think McD is better suited as a HC that is more focused on managing the coaches and staff and ensuring QC for the team. As he has become more involved with the defense the overall quality of the team preparation and ability to execute in all 3 phases has trended downward.

Before he is run out the door with pitchforks and torches the organization may be better served going back to a formula that was working. And that was having a DC who could get in the weeds of preparing that side of the ball, and OC that is a proven offensive coach that can manage that side of the team while McD manages the overall team quality and coordination.

Dorsey was going to be held accountable for an offense that has taken steps backwards and that is a tough lesson for Allen who is the key piece of executing his offense. At the end of the day the performance of the players on offense really does affect the jobs and careers of coaches and coordinators.

 

Wade was a defensive coach and his defense often were lights out  He didn't get the right guys to run the offense and never had a qb of Josh's caliber  A Wade Phillips defense didnt give up leads at end of games often

[BillsVet]

McDermott just pulled a power play and people aren't seeing it.

 

Josh is being paid 43M per, so he isn't going anywhere.  Still, he reportedly had input into elevating Dorsey to OC, but the decision was McD's.  

 

McD has fired 4 coordinators in 7 years and likely will be under scrutiny if Buffalo doesn't get to the SB.  That's highly unlikely with this roster.  

 

Now, McD can spin this hire (and firing now) of Dorsey into that Josh wanted him and he did what he thought best for the franchise QB.  

 

McD gets another crack at an OC if the season continues going sideways.  And probably doesn't get fired by TPegs for this (so-far) bad season. 

 

Might seem a bit Machiavellian, but this is McD we're talking about.  

Edited November 14, 2023 by BillsVet

[billsfanmd07]

The only bright spot is if this is a just a one year drop.....We get a high draft pick WR and return next year our elite offensive ways.  

[davefan66]

Just now, billsfanmd07 said:

The only bright spot is if this is a just a one year drop.....We get a high draft pick WR and return next year our elite offensive ways.  

First round pick will be a corner.

[clayboy54]

I will wait to pass judgement until I hear from Trevon Diggs.

[SectionC3]

1 minute ago, BillsVet said:

McDermott just pulled a power play and people aren't seeing it.

 

Josh is being paid 43M per, so he isn't going anywhere.  Still, he reportedly had input into elevating Dorsey to OC, but the decision was McD's.  

 

McD has fired 4 coordinators in 7 years and likely will be under scrutiny if Buffalo doesn't get to the SB.  That's highly unlikely with this roster.  

 

Now, McD can spin this hire (and firing now) of Dorsey into that Josh wanted him and he did what he thought best for the franchise QB.  

 

McD gets another crack at an OC if the season continues going sideways.  

 

Might seem a bit Machiavellian, but this is McD we're talking about.  

It’s self-serving, no doubt.  Makes very little sense after a Monday game in which the offense left the field with a lead and the D and ST blew it.  This is all about McD scapegoating Dorsey.  I don’t see it as Machiavellian though.  I see it as desperate because this season is barely even clinging to the brink and he probably would have had a mutiny on his hands if he didn’t do something. 

[34-30]

8 minutes ago, Fan in Chicago said:

Have you considered that Allen's disinterest stemmed from a toxic relationship with Dorsey? 

We don't know the root cause of Allen's sudden decline but there is no other single factor which was evident. 

I can tell you that the QB's demeanor and the way he's carrying himself is pretty concerning, no?

[DapperCam]

6 minutes ago, HoofHearted said:

Which ones? I'm genuinely asking.

He called a high-low concept where a WR runs an out to the sideline like 15 yards down the field and another WR or TE runs an out 5 yards down the field. 
 

It makes the DB have to choose to cover one of them and Allen is supposed to throw to the other one. They run it like 5 times a game and it has led to a bunch of INTs. I think defenses have figured it out.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

20 minutes ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

If you win the coin toss plz differ you McDumbass

IDK, I liked the idea given how deferring has worked out this year with opponents scoring on opening drives.

 

[bigK14094]

1 hour ago, UKBillFan said:

 

No, he'll fire Brady then. Anything to absolve himself of responsibility.

Interm title, means maybe a new guy.  Maybe Daboll if he gets canned in NY

[JakeFrommStateFarm]

Wait a minute.

 

Dorsey had nothing to do with 12 men on the field ....

[SectionC3]

1 minute ago, bigK14094 said:

Interm title, means maybe a new guy.  Maybe Daboll if he gets canned in NY

Daboll is coming back here to be HC, not OC.  Someone earlier mentioned a McD power play in canning Dorsey.  Josh has a little more leverage than McD, and if this season goes up in flames and Daboll gets canned we’ll see who has the juice at OBD. 

[Gregg]

Just now, davefan66 said:

First round pick will be a corner.

 

You might be right. Tre probably isn't coming back and if he does will, he ever regain his old form coming off two major injuries. Poyer and Hyde are nearing the end, so the secondary is going to have to be rebuilt. With that said I would love to get Marvin Harrison Jr here, but I know that is unrealistic.