Intentional Grounding??????

[Einstein's Dog]

Didn't see a thread on this.  How could they call that?   The ref purposefully called a terrible non-challengeable penalty.

 

It's one thing to miss/not throw a flag on something.  Like the tripping -even though it was on the person with the ball.  You can somewhat think they didn't see it or think from their vantage point it wasn't a penalty.

 

But Intentional Grounding - that really annoyed me.  Where did they see "imminent loss of yardage because of pressure".  The ref should never have made that call.  Josh wasn't throwing that ball because of pressure.  It was a terrible subjective call.

 

And with the broadcast you see the replay of the non-called tripping, followed up with the inexplicable bogus intentional grounding call was a double whammy.  The broadcasters saw the tripping and said a little something and kind of movedon/went silent.  Then the Intentional grounding and at least Collinsworth was like "what?".  Then the rules dork tried to make like it was definitely by the rules correct.  But the rule dork clearly left out the whole under duress element of call, dork.

 

It was very frustrating.

[Doc]

In almost every game you see at least 1 throw by a QB that is so far out of bounds that the WR has no chance at it, and no call. 

[zow2]

I had no idea about that call.  The rules guy insisted the only thing that mattered was where the ball landed.  nothing else. But i never see similar plays called ever.  Just like the finger point.  Never see that called.  I guess that crew doesn’t like Allen. 

What about the leg whip or slide tackle on Kincaid.  when is that ever NOT called.  Always strange crap in Bills games.

[TheWei44]

I was at the game and we're lining up for a FG attempt and then after what seemed like several minutes, we march 10 yards back and punt it.  I was like WTF?!?!  Without the benefit of the broadcast, I had no idea what was going on.  But think about when intentional grounding is typically called - The QB blatantly chucks it into the ground with no one even remotely close while under duress.  This was NOT that!!  It was miscommunication b/w 17 and 13 (very obviously) and no duress.  Huge headscratcher!

[Einstein's Dog]

7 minutes ago, TheWei44 said:

I was at the game and we're lining up for a FG attempt and then after what seemed like several minutes, we march 10 yards back and punt it.  I was like WTF?!?!  Without the benefit of the broadcast, I had no idea what was going on.  But think about when intentional grounding is typically called - The QB blatantly chucks it into the ground with no one even remotely close while under duress.  This was NOT that!!  It was miscommunication b/w 17 and 13 (very obviously) and no duress.  Huge headscratcher!

That's right, that added to it.  They were lining up for the FG attempt and then in kind of a delayed fashion came back.  I wish the other refs could have talked the one out of it.

As a Bills fan watching the broadcast of that sequence of events was extremely frustrating.

[NoSaint]

Herbert was more egregious there throwing the out when the receiver whipped in

 

honestly if I were McDermott I’d have been bordering on ejected after that call

16 minutes ago, zow2 said:

I had no idea about that call.  The rules guy insisted the only thing that mattered was where the ball landed.  nothing else. But i never see similar plays called ever.  Just like the finger point.  Never see that called.  I guess that crew doesn’t like Allen. 

What about the leg whip or slide tackle on Kincaid.  when is that ever NOT called.  Always strange crap in Bills games.

the finger point is the rule. You don’t get to celebrate towards an opponent like that. Tyreeks seen that flag, for instance.

 

the trip sucked but real time and weird angles - whatever. 
 

the grounding was the strangest call I can recall. It was calling a ticky tack and non obvious PI on a Hail Mary for instance. 

[Simon]

31 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Didn't see a thread on this.  How could they call that?   The ref purposefully called a terrible non-challengeable penalty.

 

It's one thing to miss/not throw a flag on something.  Like the tripping -even though it was on the person with the ball.  You can somewhat think they didn't see it or think from their vantage point it wasn't a penalty.

 

But Intentional Grounding - that really annoyed me.  Where did they see "imminent loss of yardage because of pressure".  The ref should never have made that call.  Josh wasn't throwing that ball because of pressure.  It was a terrible subjective call.

 

And with the broadcast you see the replay of the non-called tripping, followed up with the inexplicable bogus intentional grounding call was a double whammy.  The broadcasters saw the tripping and said a little something and kind of movedon/went silent.  Then the Intentional grounding and at least Collinsworth was like "what?".  Then the rules dork tried to make like it was definitely by the rules correct.  But the rule dork clearly left out the whole under duress element of call, dork.

 

It was very frustrating.

 

Whoever stood by that call just hurt their chances of ever advancing in their profession ever again.

One of the most clueless and amateurish calls I've ever seen.

Example # 62,974 of modern NFL refs going out of their way to hunt for infractions that they didn't even actually see.

[Gugny]

3 minutes ago, Simon said:

 

Whoever stood by that call just hurt their chances of ever advancing in their profession ever again.

One of the most clueless and amateurish calls I've ever seen.

Example # 62,974 of modern NFL refs going out of their way to hunt for infractions that they didn't even actually see.

Look … don’t think that I’m trying to call you out in public or anything. 
 

But I’ve got 62,975 because of that bogus late hit call on Gronkowski’s hit on Tre White. 
 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Gugny

[Doc]

32 minutes ago, Doc said:

In almost every game you see at least 1 throw by a QB that is so far out of bounds that the WR has no chance at it, and no call. 

I say this and soon after Herbert does exactly this. No call.  

[Royale with Cheese]

So basically for every over thrown ball because of a miscommunication needs to be a penalty.  That's what the rule stated yesterday.

[BringBackFergy]

32 minutes ago, Doc said:

In almost every game you see at least 1 throw by a QB that is so far out of bounds that the WR has no chance at it, and no call. 

Yes. The refs have now created a dangerous precedent. If a WR has the option to cut the route short and the QB thinks he’s still running the route on the sideline, if the WR does, in fact, stop, the ball will obviously be far away from the WR to call this again. That happens 100x a season. Miscommunication. What an absolute chit call. Will never be duplicated again. (Just like “Give it to him”, Houston end zone fumble/fair catch, etc etc etc. ) 

[Mark Vader]

I have seen that play happen many times. Never in my life have I ever seen that play called intentional grounding.

[Freddie's Dead]

Can't wait for another "We screwed up Buffalo, sorry" letter from the NFL.

[Einstein's Dog]

17 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

honestly if I were McDermott I’d have been bordering on ejected after that call

the finger point is the rule. You don’t get to celebrate towards an opponent like that. Tyreeks seen that flag, for instance.

 

the trip sucked but real time and weird angles - whatever. 
 

the grounding was the strangest call I can recall. It was calling a ticky tack and non obvious PI on a Hail Mary for instance. 

Tyreek was using the peace sign and then it was being used by the defense and the league didn't like it.  So the peace sign, much like "the finger" would be understood to be flagged.

 

However, a finger point is not the rule.  You routinely see linemen point at the line of scrimmage blocking assignments and no flags.  The ref determined intent, and it was a rinky-dink, unnecessary call (very easily could have given a discreet warning).

 

For me, there was the larger point of cumulative BS.  The unnecessary finger point call, the uncalled tripping, and then the out of ordinary Intentional grounding call.

 

But a finger point can mean more than a taunt - as it is with the O linemen.  The action he did was not by rule a flag, the ref had to interpret intent and think Josh was taunting instead of identifying a player that needs to be blocked.

[vincec]

It’s a classic example of the refs not enforcing the intent of the rule. Intentional grounding is a penalty to prevent the QB from avoiding a sack by intentionally throwing the ball away (although this is ok if he’s outside the pocket for some reason, but I digress…). Allen was obviously not doing that.

[Einstein's Dog]

25 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

So basically for every over thrown ball because of a miscommunication needs to be a penalty.  That's what the rule stated yesterday.

I think the rules dork messed up and didn't even bring up the "imminent loss of yardage because of pressure".  To me, It seemed like a convenient overlook of the rule so they didn't go back and look at the lack of pressure on Josh on that call.

[NoSaint]

11 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Tyreek was using the peace sign and then it was being used by the defense and the league didn't like it.  So the peace sign, much like "the finger" would be understood to be flagged.

 

However, a finger point is not the rule.  You routinely see linemen point at the line of scrimmage blocking assignments and no flags.  The ref determined intent, and it was a rinky-dink, unnecessary call (very easily could have given a discreet warning).

 

For me, there was the larger point of cumulative BS.  The unnecessary finger point call, the uncalled tripping, and then the out of ordinary Intentional grounding call.

 

But a finger point can mean more than a taunt - as it is with the O linemen.  The action he did was not by rule a flag, the ref had to interpret intent and think Josh was taunting instead of identifying a player that needs to be blocked.

he was past the player and waltzing into the end zone untouched. On this one you a wrong. It’s a silly line in the sand when a whole team can do a choreographed celebration inches from the defender but pointing to him was definitionally the rule.

[Orlando Tim]

36 minutes ago, BringBackFergy said:

Yes. The refs have now created a dangerous precedent. If a WR has the option to cut the route short and the QB thinks he’s still running the route on the sideline, if the WR does, in fact, stop, the ball will obviously be far away from the WR to call this again. That happens 100x a season. Miscommunication. What an absolute chit call. Will never be duplicated again. (Just like “Give it to him”, Houston end zone fumble/fair catch, etc etc etc. ) 

You seem to think the league cares about consistency and precedence. The NFL does not care about either so long as product is compelling. My wife is starting to watch football since my son is a freshman at FSU this year and she watches the Bills and has stopped trying to get clarification from me on why anything is called because she understands the rules but does not see any standards.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

Terrible call. It wasn’t intentional grounding, it was a qb and wr reading defense differently. 
 

 

[phypon]

I remember a game many, many, years ago.  I forget who they were playing.  kelly threw the ball away through the endzone (a typical play) and got called for intentional grounding.  A play like that was par for the course, happens all the time, and still happens.  That call last night was ridiculous.  It looked more like the receiver took the option and stopped on his route.  The ball landed in bounds for crying out loud!  It was not even an intentional overthrow to kill the play, it was a bad read/miscommunication!

 

As others have said, refs have been brutal this year.  They really have influenced games in what seems to be more frequent this year than in years past, and not just for the Bills.  They are out of control.

[Livinginthepast]

I said this last night. I've been watching the NFL for 44 years. 1000's of games and never seen such a ridiculous call. That's the kind of imaginary foul that gets people yapping about the NFL being fixed. They literally felt the need to invent a foul. The worst part of this for me was the geniuses in that officiating crew actually thought about it before throwing the flag. At that point, the eye in the sky should have discreetly told the head ref, "pick up the flag thats not even close to the rule". But no the imbeciles run with their imaginary foul. NFL a $Billion league with amateur quality officiating.

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

2nd worst grounding call I can remember in a Bills game

 

 

 

start at 1:56

[Einstein's Dog]

3 minutes ago, Livinginthepast said:

I said this last night. I've been watching the NFL for 44 years. 1000's of games and never seen such a ridiculous call. That's the kind of imaginary foul that gets people yapping about the NFL being fixed. They literally felt the need to invent a foul. The worst part of this for me was the geniuses in that officiating crew actually thought about it before throwing the flag. At that point, the eye in the sky should have discreetly told the head ref, "pick up the flag thats not even close to the rule". But no the imbeciles run with their imaginary foul. NFL a $Billion league with amateur quality officiating.

I didn't realize they thought about it and had a delayed flag.  That is just wrong.  IMO, this could have been a after further review, pick up the flag situation.  And from a game situation, it would have made the game more interesting to see if the Bills could have hit the long FG.

[Ethan in Cleveland]

Tripping call was worse than the intentional grounding. They wpuld have been in the redzone with plenty of time to score.

Both were horrible calls. 

[JESSEFEFFER]

15 minutes ago, phypon said:

I remember a game many, many, years ago.  I forget who they were playing.  kelly threw the ball away through the endzone (a typical play) and got called for intentional grounding.  A play like that was par for the course, happens all the time, and still happens.  That call last night was ridiculous.  It looked more like the receiver took the option and stopped on his route.  The ball landed in bounds for crying out loud!  It was not even an intentional overthrow to kill the play, it was a bad read/miscommunication!

 

As others have said, refs have been brutal this year.  They really have influenced games in what seems to be more frequent this year than in years past, and not just for the Bills.  They are out of control.

Playoff loss to the Jaguars.  

[Old Coot]

1 hour ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Then the rules dork tried to make like it was definitely by the rules correct.  But the rule dork clearly left out the whole under duress element of call, dork.

Just to be clear, so you're saying the rules dork was a dork?

[AlfaBill]

1 hour ago, Doc said:

In almost every game you see at least 1 throw by a QB that is so far out of bounds that the WR has no chance at it, and no call. 

Josh was pissed about that in his presser. It made ZERO sense. If the refs had called a good  game the Bills probably at still lose but I’m sure it would’ve been a last minute 3 point type of game 

Just now, Old Coot said:

Just to be clear, so you're saying the rules dork was a dork?

When you find yourself agreeing with Cockinmouth, you bet. He was arguing with rules dork too!

[JESSEFEFFER]

39 minutes ago, Einstein's Dog said:

I think the rules dork messed up and didn't even bring up the "imminent loss of yardage because of pressure".  To me, It seemed like a convenient overlook of the rule so they didn't go back and look at the lack of pressure on Josh on that call.

Rules analyst Terry McCaulay was too eager to back the call on the field.  The rulebook language you quoted is necessary to making the call.  It was not close to being met.   I wonder if the booth guy buzzed in because it happened so late.  No need to think about intent which is where Collingsworth went.  

[MPT]

1 hour ago, NoSaint said:

Herbert was more egregious there throwing the out when the receiver whipped in

 

honestly if I were McDermott I’d have been bordering on ejected after that call

the finger point is the rule. You don’t get to celebrate towards an opponent like that. Tyreeks seen that flag, for instance.

 

the trip sucked but real time and weird angles - whatever. 
 

the grounding was the strangest call I can recall. It was calling a ticky tack and non obvious PI on a Hail Mary for instance. 

 

Not when he did it against us. Wait. Is there a pattern here?

[Doc]

1 hour ago, phypon said:

I remember a game many, many, years ago.  I forget who they were playing.  kelly threw the ball away through the endzone (a typical play) and got called for intentional grounding.  A play like that was par for the course, happens all the time, and still happens.  That call last night was ridiculous.  It looked more like the receiver took the option and stopped on his route.  The ball landed in bounds for crying out loud!  It was not even an intentional overthrow to kill the play, it was a bad read/miscommunication!

 

As others have said, refs have been brutal this year.  They really have influenced games in what seems to be more frequent this year than in years past, and not just for the Bills.  They are out of control.

 

I remember the Kelly play (I want to say it was against Miami).  I also remember EJ Manuel being near the Bills' endzone and throwing a pass 30 yards downfield to Stevie Johnson (I think) near the sidelines.  Johnson goes in (or out) and EJ throws out (or in) and they called in intentional grounding. 

Edited November 7, 2023 by Doc

[MPT]

8 minutes ago, AlfaBill said:

Josh was pissed about that in his presser. It made ZERO sense. If the refs had called a good  game the Bills probably at still lose but I’m sure it would’ve been a last minute 3 point type of game 

When you find yourself agreeing with Cockinmouth, you bet. He was arguing with rules dork too!

 

Non call on the Davis facemask cost us 4 points. Intentional grounding cost us 3 points. That makes it 24-24 (wouldn't go for 2 in that case) just based on those two calls alone.

 

That's not even counting the bogus RTP that resulted in the Bengals' second TD or the non call on the slide tackle. Those two together are at least one more score in point differential. 

 

The catch that was ruled not a catch but was actually a catch but was also still a bad challenge despite it actually being a catch. 

 

So yeah, all things being equal we win that game.

[Old Coot]

2 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

But Intentional Grounding - that really annoyed me.  Where did they see "imminent loss of yardage because of pressure".  The ref should never have made that call.  Josh wasn't throwing that ball because of pressure.  It was a terrible subjective call.

I agree. The rule requires that the QB be facing imminent loss of yardage and on that play Josh threw from a clean pocket.

 

Collingsworth was right that the WRs route was an option route. When Josh throws the WR is running a fly pattern which he breaks off just after Josh lets the ball go because the DB is in good position to defend the fly. Not that this is a defense to the overthrow. 

 

What likely happened was that the refs saw the overthrow but not the clean pocket and called what they saw (or didn't see). 

 

Regardless, this play was not within the reason for the intentional grounding rule.

2 hours ago, Einstein's Dog said:

Then the rules dork tried to make like it was definitely by the rules correct.  But the rule dork clearly left out the whole under duress element of call, dork.

Just to be clear, so you're saying the rules dork was a dork?

[Returntoglory]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

In almost every game you see at least 1 throw by a QB that is so far out of bounds that the WR has no chance at it, and no call. 

BUT this was in-bounds and perfectly thrown up the sideline. Had #13 kept running it would have been a perfectly thrown pass.

 

This WAS NOT intentional grounding!

[BobbyC81]

12 hours ago, TheWei44 said:

I was at the game and we're lining up for a FG attempt and then after what seemed like several minutes, we march 10 yards back and punt it.  I was like WTF?!?!  Without the benefit of the broadcast, I had no idea what was going on.  But think about when intentional grounding is typically called - The QB blatantly chucks it into the ground with no one even remotely close while under duress.  This was NOT that!!  It was miscommunication b/w 17 and 13 (very obviously) and no duress.  Huge headscratcher!

This has been called more frequently in games this year.  Many pretty much the same where the receiver and QB not on same page.  Yet Wonder Boy Marcia used to just throw the ball into the ground and rarely get penalized 

[Big Turk]

By the letter of the law, it's the "right" call, but literally you could call this 5 times or more every game.  Almost never see it called and it's pretty interesting that it gets called in this situation to knock them out of FG range.

 

Collinsworth was flabbergasted at the call and explained that it is an option route where the QB thought he was going to continue deep and the WR hooked it up and that happens all the time.  The Rules Analyst tried to explain that it doesn't matter and that if the ball was "overhead" it won't get called but he thinks it was too far away to be "overhead".  Seems like he was really stretching especially since Allen wasn't under duress on the play which is the point of intentional grounding...he is throwing the ball away to avoid a sack.

Edited November 7, 2023 by Big Turk

[Brand J]

The funny thing is Burrow actually had an intentional grounding in the same game with the same referee crew and they didn’t call it. Can’t remember the quarter and down, but he was about to get sacked and just chucked the ball. We were all yelling “grounding?!”

[SoCal Deek]

12 hours ago, JESSEFEFFER said:

Rules analyst Terry McCaulay was too eager to back the call on the field.  The rulebook language you quoted is necessary to making the call.  It was not close to being met.   I wonder if the booth guy buzzed in because it happened so late.  No need to think about intent which is where Collingsworth went.  

The NFL is trying really hard to become the NBA, this the need for studio referees to agree with the calls. That particular one was utterly ridiculous! The intent of INTENTIONALLY grounding is that the QB is purposely trying to throw an incomplete pass so as to avoid getting sacked. Neither of those criteria were met. Horrible call! 

[DrDawkinstein]

I'm not defending the flag, it was BS, however...

 

IIRC the only other time I've seen a grounding flag thrown on a WR miscue was on Brady, playing against the Bills. We were home. I believe it was a night game. I think Brady was backed up close to his own end zone. And let one fly like that. And after some discussion, the refs dropped the flag on him.

 

I've been combing through game logs since 2014, but cant find it. Maybe we declined the penalty?

 

Anyone else remember this? Or was it a fever dream?

[Dan Darragh]

14 hours ago, zow2 said:

Just like the finger point.  Never see that called.  

I remember once Eric Moulds got an unsportsmanlike conduct penalty for "maliciously spinning the football."

[Doc]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

By the letter of the law, it's the "right" call, but literally you could call this 5 times or more every game.  Almost never see it called and it's pretty interesting that it gets called in this situation to knock them out of FG range.

 

Collinsworth was flabbergasted at the call and explained that it is an option route where the QB thought he was going to continue deep and the WR hooked it up and that happens all the time.  The Rules Analyst tried to explain that it doesn't matter and that if the ball was "overhead" it won't get called but he thinks it was too far away to be "overhead".  Seems like he was really stretching especially since Allen wasn't under duress on the play which is the point of intentional grounding...he is throwing the ball away to avoid a sack.

 

It wasn't because he wasn't in imminent danger of being sacked.