Josh’s stats so far - the Ken Dorsey Offense

[Roundybout]

Through seven games, Josh’s stats are as follows:  

 

2020: 175/259, 2,018 yards, 16 touchdowns, 4 interceptions, 12 sacks.  

2021: 178/272, 1,972 yards, 17 touchdowns, 3 interceptions, 8 sacks.  

2022: 173/264, 2,198 yards, 19 touchdowns, 6 interceptions, 11 sacks.  

2023: 174/246, 1,841 yards 15 touchdowns, 7 interceptions, 10 sacks.  

 

We see that Josh has thrown fewer passes with a similar amount completions, but with fewer yards and touchdowns, reflecting an offense prioritizing safe football instead of explosive plays. We also see more interceptions although that’s skewed by the awful Jets game.  

 

We also see a bit more success in the run game aside from Josh, as Cook’s 417 yards are the best a Bills RB has had through this span in some time. 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

I get it isn’t all on Dorsey, players need to execute, ect, but Josh Allen clearly doesn’t fit this Ken Dorsey offense and players seem to have a difficult time picking it up. 
 

The offensive coordinator does take blame when the offense seems uncoordinated. 

[MAJBobby]

Now show me Bills Red Zone Offense under Dorsey. 
 

[TheyCallMeAndy]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Now show me Bills Red Zone Offense under Dorsey. 
 

Only stat I know offhand is the Offense went from unstoppable in the Redzone to struggling. 

[FireChans]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

Now show me Bills Red Zone Offense under Dorsey. 
 

 

Just now, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Only stat I know offhand is the Offense went from unstoppable in the Redzone to struggling. 

We are second in the NFL in RZ TD percentage.

[The Jokeman]

6 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I get it isn’t all on Dorsey, players need to execute, ect, but Josh Allen clearly doesn’t fit this Ken Dorsey offense and players seem to have a difficult time picking it up. 
 

The offensive coordinator does take blame when the offense seems uncoordinated. 

Exactly, an OC shouldn't be blamed when his starting TE is open and drops a catchable ball etc. Also an OC can't direct who the QBs throws to on any given play that's always the QBs given choice and we've seen Josh doesn't always make the right one. Toss in our FG kicker the last two weeks has missed some kicks that in most cases you'd think he'd make. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by The Jokeman

[Big Turk]

Allen has also only ran 29 times total this season...last year at this point he had 53 rushes. They are trying to neuter him far too much in the run game, IMO, and it's hurting them offensively. Teams had to prepare for those designed QB runs. Now they don't...when was the last QB Power or QB Sweep we saw?  

 

Allen had the most rushing attempts this year yesterday, with 7,  and 3 of them were sneaks, not even true runs.  Last year at this time he had 4 games with more than 7 rushes in a game, 3 of them double digit attempts. 

 

They need to turn him loose, at least a little bit, and make the defense fear him again in that way.  I don't think they fear that aspect of the offense anymore because they haven't seen it at all this year.  

[Punching Bag]

Josh wanted Dorsey to be the OC.  Maybe he should have had longer talk with him about his game planning before endorsement.

 

I think Josh's shoulder is injured a lot more than Bills are letting on and that is partly Josh's fault for joining brawl.

[zow2]

On ESPN this morning, Orlovsky showed specific plays where the Bills fail miserably when responding to heavy pressure and blitzing.  It's a big problem he says and been that way for 5 years.  But they didn't blame Allen even though he makes some bad decisions.  Said We would never come back in any of these games without Allen being amazing.

Edited October 23, 2023 by zow2

[ddaryl]

Ken is Oil Josh is water.

Dorsey could be a solid OC but Josh is the wrong QB for that Offense

[Nuncha]

10 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I get it isn’t all on Dorsey, players need to execute, ect, but Josh Allen clearly doesn’t fit this Ken Dorsey offense and players seem to have a difficult time picking it up. 
 

The offensive coordinator does take blame when the offense seems uncoordinated. 

Then it is on Dorsey to play the cards he was handed.  He's trying to put a square peg in a round hole.  Do we dump players and find ones to fit Dorsey's scheme, or do we dump Dorsey and find a real coordinator who will work with what he has?

Edited October 23, 2023 by Nuncha

[MAJBobby]

6 minutes ago, The Jokeman said:

Exactly, an OC shouldn't be blamed when his starting TE is open and drops a catchable ball etc. Also an OC can't direct who the QBs throws to on any given play that's always the QBs given choice and we've seen Josh doesn't always make the right one. Toss in our FG kicker the last two weeks has missed some kicks that in most cases you'd think he'd make. 

Can the QB for being massively late on the throw to the starting TE with hands issues turning an easy catch into a contested catch?  

[Royale with Cheese]

11 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Only stat I know offhand is the Offense went from unstoppable in the Redzone to struggling. 

It seems like Allen doesn’t trust the 1st read.  He holds it, scrambles out and tries to make the great play throwing on the run.

 

What happened to snap, 3 step drop and out?

[machine gun kelly]

2 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I get it isn’t all on Dorsey, players need to execute, ect, but Josh Allen clearly doesn’t fit this Ken Dorsey offense and players seem to have a difficult time picking it up. 
 

The offensive coordinator does take blame when the offense seems uncoordinated. 

Yep.  Josh may like shotgun, but they are more effective under center.  McBeane may want 12 and 21 personnel, but safe ball control football is not the way.

 

Josh cooks under 11 personnel.  What the hell are they doing when Harty gets 1 catch and McD pulls him.  The fastest guy on the team except for Isabella.

 

Stop with this insistence on ball control and 12 personnel.  Josh likes throwing it downfield and to WR’s and is darn good at it.

 

Stop with handcuffing Josh running.  It’s not working.  It’s a big part of his game.

 

We drove in Q4 twice for TD’s because we went 11.  We also have success in empty.

 

The defense is seriously hurt by the losses of Daquan, Milano, Tre and temporarily Oliver.  Our defense works with interior pressure.  We had none yesterday and made Mack look all world.

 

This was most pathetic loss of the McD era.  You guys know me and I’m very positive about my Bills because I love them and have been in McBeanes corner, but something dramatic needs to  change 

 

I can’t watch another performance like this with Tampa.  Besides I’ll never hear the end of it from all of my friends in Tampa.

[All_Pro_Bills]

3 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

Ken is Oil Josh is water.

Dorsey could be a solid OC but Josh is the wrong QB for that Offense

It seems like a bad marriage and maybe I lack an understanding of the nuances of this offense but I don't see much variation in Dorsey's game plan and play calls or Allen's decisions and receiver targets from opponent to opponent based on exploiting the opponents weaknesses and avoiding their strengths. 

I expect the game plan for Tampa will be almost exactly what it was against NE.

It's way too easy on the other teams defense.

[Drew21PA]

I have eyes and see this offense is beyond pathetic

 

save your stats 

[The Jokeman]

49 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Can the QB for being massively late on the throw to the starting TE with hands issues turning an easy catch into a contested catch?  

Yeah, I think it might be a slight issue as Josh always doesn't throw guys open but with his arm strength he can still beat defenders.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 hour ago, Roundybout said:

Through seven games, Josh’s stats are as follows:  

 

2020: 175/259, 2,018 yards, 16 touchdowns, 4 interceptions, 12 sacks.  

2021: 178/272, 1,972 yards, 17 touchdowns, 3 interceptions, 8 sacks.  

2022: 173/264, 2,198 yards, 19 touchdowns, 6 interceptions, 11 sacks.  

2023: 174/246, 1,841 yards 15 touchdowns, 7 interceptions, 10 sacks.  

 

We see that Josh has thrown fewer passes with a similar amount completions, but with fewer yards and touchdowns, reflecting an offense prioritizing safe football instead of explosive plays. We also see more interceptions although that’s skewed by the awful Jets game.  

 

We also see a bit more success in the run game aside from Josh, as Cook’s 417 yards are the best a Bills RB has had through this span in some time. 

To be fair Josh isn’t hitting the explosive plays this year when they’re there.

 

Josh is a veteran QB. He’s missing the explosive plays consistently now. It’s starting to catch up.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[Reed83HOF]

The biggest change in offense is the lack of a real WR2, John Brown and Emmanuel Sanders are more of a threat than Gabe. This has tremendously choked our offense...

 

Allen doesn't trust the OL with pressure coming and he doesn't really trust Davis or Knox (drops I assume) the target share minus Diggs for every other pass catchers are very low. 

 

Add Milano out and we have to now really outscore everyone.  

[Big Turk]

Allen is trying to become Herbert instead of playing his game, he is trying to play Herbert's game.  Extend plays outside the pocket but only run as a last resort. That's not him.  Allen ran 124 times last year, Herbert ran 54. This year Allen has ran 29 times, Herbert 28.  That's a problem. 

 

Teams are not coming up to try and prevent Allen from taking off much because they don't respect that part of his game anymore because he hasn't MADE THEM respect it.  They are simply giving him those areas to run and covering the receivers and he still won't take it now. Or waits until it's too late and tries to chuck up a pass with a super low completion chance when he runs out of room or a defender closes in.

 

Allen needs to stop trying to play like Herbert and go back to playing like Allen.

[JMM]

1 hour ago, zow2 said:

On ESPN this morning, Orlovsky showed specific plays where the Bills fail miserably when responding to heavy pressure and blitzing.  It's a big problem he says and been that way for 5 years.  But they didn't blame Allen even though he makes some bad decisions.  Said We would never come back in any of these games without Allen being amazing.

Could you elaborate a bit? What did Dan pinpoint as the problem? Simply personnel or coaching or both? You said he stated 5 years, so that would include Dorsey and Daboll. Thanks!

[Westside]

1 hour ago, The Jokeman said:

Exactly, an OC shouldn't be blamed when his starting TE is open and drops a catchable ball etc. Also an OC can't direct who the QBs throws to on any given play that's always the QBs given choice and we've seen Josh doesn't always make the right one. Toss in our FG kicker the last two weeks has missed some kicks that in most cases you'd think he'd make. 

Dorsey will go down in infamy for his shotgun draw play. Brilliant!!!!!!

[mrags]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

 

We are second in the NFL in RZ TD percentage.

What difference does it make when we only get in the RZ 3 times a game. If the offense sucks, your shots in the RZ are diminished 

[colin]

dorsey is bothersome, but honestly, his offensive stats last year and this year are close enough to dabol's it's not like we lost andy reid and picked up dennison.

 

the big issue, and it was an issue under dabol too, is that we just don't have a scheme that puts us in an advantage position.  everything new england did vs us on d and on o was a function of scheme and execution of that scheme.  pre snap reads, basic play action, screens and sweeps when linebackers weren't being disciplined, easy quick developing passes based on the pre snap line up, etc.

 

for us, it seems like we just call something, which nearly every second down is the wrong thing and the d has it dead, or we go hurry up and allen just uses allen powers to do allen things.  we would be 2 wins better if we just elimated the bad play on offense as much as can be done.  but without a base/identity to fall back on and to get ahead of the sticks, every play we have is like a flip of a magic 8 ball, might work, might not, and we have no idea when we flip it.

[zow2]

21 minutes ago, JMM said:

Could you elaborate a bit? What did Dan pinpoint as the problem? Simply personnel or coaching or both? You said he stated 5 years, so that would include Dorsey and Daboll. Thanks!

 

He did say coaching plus the guys on the field.  Honestly he kinda wanted to be a bit critical of Allen but then backed off and said Everyone!  He was mad that the Bills have no set plan to deal with the heavy pressure and he showed outlet plays that would’ve worked to at least set them up for 3rd down and short yardage situations.

Edited October 23, 2023 by zow2

[All_Pro_Bills]

47 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

He did say coaching plus the guys on the field.  Honestly he kinda wanted to be a bit critical of Allen but then backed off and said Everyone!  He was mad that the Bills have no set plan to deal with the heavy pressure and he showed outlet plays that would’ve worked to at least set them up for 3rd down and short yardage situations.

They have no situational game plan, play calls, and consistently fail to identify an effective play or call to take advantage of the defense.

 

An example might be that some teams play a wide nine that puts pressure on the OTs but leaves a gap between the DTs and DEs.  A LB might normally assume responsibility for that gap.  But a draw between the OG and OT gap where the LB vacated to drop into pass coverage can be exploited.  Once you run a successful draw a few times the LBs will delay their drop into coverage and as a result leave some big gaps in coverage that Allen can exploit In the pass game.    How much of that do the Bills do when playing the Jets or a wide nine scheme?  They'll run between the center guard gap which consistently get stuffed.  And the LBs drop without concern for the draw.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[MJS]

2 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Only stat I know offhand is the Offense went from unstoppable in the Redzone to struggling. 

Daboll struggled in the red zone too. Don't you remember?

2 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I get it isn’t all on Dorsey, players need to execute, ect, but Josh Allen clearly doesn’t fit this Ken Dorsey offense and players seem to have a difficult time picking it up. 
 

The offensive coordinator does take blame when the offense seems uncoordinated. 

Agreed. The offense just seems pretty bland. Daboll, even though he wasn't as good as everyone remembers, always sprinkled in some interesting plays, some trick plays, etc. Dorsey needs to at least be doing that.

[Mango]

2 hours ago, zow2 said:

On ESPN this morning, Orlovsky showed specific plays where the Bills fail miserably when responding to heavy pressure and blitzing.  It's a big problem he says and been that way for 5 years.  But they didn't blame Allen even though he makes some bad decisions.  Said We would never come back in any of these games without Allen being amazing.

Josh runs on just wing it and sling it. 
 

My guess is there’s a lot going on here part is on the OL, but part of it is Josh identifying and setting the protection at the LOS. 

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

Josh runs on just wing it and sling it. 
 

My guess is there’s a lot going on here part is on the OL, but part of it is Josh identifying and setting the protection at the LOS. 

And going to hot routes and check downs when pressure comes. There is plenty of blame to go around. The OL has been pretty good this year,  until yesterday.

[ngbills]

If they dont want to play to Allen's strengths then they should just move on from him. I am sure many teams would take him off our hands. 

[Best Williams Available]

2 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Yep.  Josh may like shotgun, but they are more effective under center.  McBeane may want 12 and 21 personnel, but safe ball control football is not the way.

 

Josh cooks under 11 personnel.

 

The ball control style is being force fed to them by McD, who as a D guy doesn’t want his D on the field too frequently or for too long.

Think about that Chiefs game. The O scored too fast too often leaving 13 sec on the clock for the D to then give it up. He took all the wrong lessons from that game and is trying to win tight ball control games vs shootouts. But how has that worked out the last 2 weeks? His D effectively gave up 2 game winners. Let your O put up 30+ guy and trust your guys on D to win games.

[BigDingus]

That's kind of what happens when you don't extend drives though. You can expect less passing attempts, less yards, less TDs, etc. if you're doing nothing until the 4th quarter and constantly punting the ball.

 

And INTs aren't the only issue. Fumbles are a big problem as well. So the turnover numbers look even worse than the 7 INTs indicate. 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Through seven games, Josh’s stats are as follows:  

 

2020: 175/259, 2,018 yards, 16 touchdowns, 4 interceptions, 12 sacks.  

2021: 178/272, 1,972 yards, 17 touchdowns, 3 interceptions, 8 sacks.  

2022: 173/264, 2,198 yards, 19 touchdowns, 6 interceptions, 11 sacks.  

2023: 174/246, 1,841 yards 15 touchdowns, 7 interceptions, 10 sacks.  

 

We see that Josh has thrown fewer passes with a similar amount completions, but with fewer yards and touchdowns, reflecting an offense prioritizing safe football instead of explosive plays. We also see more interceptions although that’s skewed by the awful Jets game.  

 

We also see a bit more success in the run game aside from Josh, as Cook’s 417 yards are the best a Bills RB has had through this span in some time. 

IMO this is a defensive based approach illustrating to me that with DaBoll gone and the more controllable Dorsey running the O McD can shape the offense to a form that he prefers. I suspect that McD & DaBoll went at it a few times over the offenses approach.

 

 

 

 

[Aimee75]

One of the FEW podcasts I am willing to watch/listen to today.

 

I am always and forever with Chris Simms on the topic of our offense.

 

"The whole game is on him. I'm sick of it!"(regarding Josh)

 

[TheBrownBear]

40 minutes ago, Mango said:

Josh runs on just wing it and sling it. 
 

My guess is there’s a lot going on here part is on the OL, but part of it is Josh identifying and setting the protection at the LOS. 

My sense is that this is a huge weakness in his game that is setting us back, but that's just based on how often we see him stuck in jailbreak situations.  I have no clue what, if any checks, he's making at the LOS.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

It seems like Allen doesn’t trust the 1st read.  He holds it, scrambles out and tries to make the great play throwing on the run.

 

What happened to snap, 3 step drop and out?

It’s there, on the sustained scoring drives 

[Billsfan1972]

NE pressured 40.9% yesterday and there were 18 hurries.

 

How is that acceptable?

 

Add to that Davis never seems to get open and throws to the middle of the field and room to run are non-existent.

[All_Pro_Bills]

28 minutes ago, Best Williams Available said:

The ball control style is being force fed to them by McD, who as a D guy doesn’t want his D on the field too frequently or for too long.

Think about that Chiefs game. The O scored too fast too often leaving 13 sec on the clock for the D to then give it up. He took all the wrong lessons from that game and is trying to win tight ball control games vs shootouts. But how has that worked out the last 2 weeks? His D effectively gave up 2 game winners. Let your O put up 30+ guy and trust your guys on D to win games.

Too much thinking.  These players seem to excell when the pace is fast.  The identity the group was developing isn't slow, milk the clock.  Ball control is disturbing the entirre space-time continuum of this offense. 

Go hurry up or no huddle all game.  In the 4th 2 weeks in a row that's gotten the offense moving and scoring.  Start the game with it not after going down two scores.  Be aggressive and McDermott needs to stop playing scared and timid.

[jlgarsh]

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Can the QB for being massively late on the throw to the starting TE with hands issues turning an easy catch into a contested catch?  

He drops the easy catches too sometimes. The nickname Dropsome Knox didn't come overnight 

[Best Williams Available]

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Too much thinking.  These players seem to excell when the pace is fast.  The identity the group was developing isn't slow, milk the clock.  Ball control is disturbing the entirre space-time continuum of this offense. 

Go hurry up or no huddle all game.  In the 4th 2 weeks in a row that's gotten the offense moving and scoring.  Start the game with it not after going down two scores.  Be aggressive and McDermott needs to stop playing scared and timid.

I think he’s playing based on the strengths of his D. It shapes his whole philosophy. His D can’t play fast, it’s filled with old guys and slow guys. He rotates DL to combat this. He doesn’t want these old slow guys out there every 5 minutes so demands we perfect some sustained style of O. It worked great against the Raiders but sometimes you need to win shootouts. Against Miami he conceded this and won but they then went and f*cked with the program.