How Good is Josh Allen Really?

[GoBills808]

11 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

Third in EPA, second in qbr, first in completion percentage, first in fantasy points. Made 3 or 4 throws in that giants second half that no other human can make. 
No doubter first ballot hall of famer even if the bills don’t win a Super Bowl. 

 

Also first in TDs

 

again

[Gunsgoodtime]

Good enough to dump the coaching staff and any players not named Diggs if necessary 

[hondo in seattle]

For those making Kelly-Allen comparisons, one difference is that Kelly could rely on Thurman when he was having a bad days, or receivers were struggling to get open, or the OL was screwing up passpro.  Josh can't do that.  He carries the load by himself. 

 

Insofar as there is a problem, that's part of it.  

[Buffalo716]

Really ***** good

[dollars 2 donuts]

 

It boggles my mind to imagine Josh Allen playing behind Will Wolford, Jim Ritcher, Kent Hull, John Davis and Howard Ballard.

 

it would be “Josh Allen: The Record Mutilator.”

 

 

 

 

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, dollars 2 donuts said:

 

It boggles my mind to imagine Josh Allen playing behind Will Wolford, Jim Ritcher, Kent Hull, John Davis and Howard Ballard.

 

it would be “Josh Allen: The Record Mutilator.”

 

 

 

 

He will still do that : )

[Pete]

How Good is Josh Allen Really?

 

REALLY FRIGGIN GOOD!  SPECTACULAR EVEN!

[thenorthremembers]

8 hours ago, Utah John said:

Are you sure about the HOF?  Look at how QBs of 20 years ago, and how they're evaluated.  How many SBs did he win?  How many times was he All-Pro?  How many times was he picked for the Pro Bowl?  No one asks about the eye test, how good the guy was, because 20 years from now people will not remember the terrific plays.  With luck, before Josh is done, he'll have checked all those boxes, but there are so many good QBs including the consensus best, Mahomes, he'll struggle to get that done.

Am I sure he'll make the HOF, no.  What I said was, if he keeps up the numbers he has, he will be in the top 5-10 of every statistical category for QBs.   I am not sure he will keep those numbers up, a lot can happen, injury etc.

 

I think the Bills will win a Superbowl with Josh.  If he gets one and keeps putting up the numbers his career will be very comparable to Favre's.  If he never wins one, he probably ends up just a bit better than Rivers, also a very good QB.

 

Bottom line is this, going back to the original question, he is a fantastic QB.

Edited October 21, 2023 by thenorthremembers

[Freddie's Dead]

JP Allen is the best QB in the NFL. 

[Buffalo03]

18 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

We all know fans who believe McD should be fired if we don't get to the Super Bowl when we have Josh Allen as our QB.

 

But Josh has given us some clunkers.  There are games when he bails out of the pocket when he doesn't need to, makes bad decisions with the ball, and delivers errant throws.

 

But are Josh's subpar games truly his fault?

Sometimes I put the blame squarely on Dorsey for poor play design and bad play-calling.

 

And when I blame Dorsey, McD deserves his share of blame too.  He made Dorsey the OC and oversees the entire team.  He doesn't escape culpability.

 

But sometimes I blame the receivers who, at times, struggle to gain separation.  (Though maybe that's more of a Dorsey problem).  

And some games I blame the OL.  Josh has spent much of his career in Buffalo scrambling for his life.

 

Of course, Beane deserves some blame, too.  He's never prioritized the OL.  You would think that when you've found a generational QB, you'd build a line to protect his health and well-being as well as give him time to throw.  Beane didn't do that.  

 

There are days when Josh looks like one of the best to ever play the game.  Other times, not so much.  So, I've been wondering how good Josh really is and who's principally to blame when he's not as productive and efficient as he 'ought' to be.  

Why does it need to be explained to you that every QB has clunkers. That shouldn't have to be explained. And you sound like you can't make up your mind

 

You: "how good is Josh Allen, really? He's given us clunkers. But sometimes I blame McDermott and Dorsey. Other times I blame our WRs that don't get open the way they should. Sometimes I blame Beane for just drafting him. Other times I wanna say it's the fans being to loud. Most times I think the referees hate Josh and our oline really sucks. But is Josh really that good? It makes me wonder"

 

Make up your mind. And for the 2nd time in this post. All QBs have clunkers. No QB is spot on all the time and again, this shouldn't have to be explained 

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

The second best football player on the planet.

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

37 minutes ago, Buffalo03 said:

Why does it need to be explained to you that every QB has clunkers. That shouldn't have to be explained. And you sound like you can't make up your mind

 

You: "how good is Josh Allen, really? He's given us clunkers. But sometimes I blame McDermott and Dorsey. Other times I blame our WRs that don't get open the way they should. Sometimes I blame Beane for just drafting him. Other times I wanna say it's the fans being to loud. Most times I think the referees hate Josh and our oline really sucks. But is Josh really that good? It makes me wonder"

 

Make up your mind. And for the 2nd time in this post. All QBs have clunkers. No QB is spot on all the time and again, this shouldn't have to be explained 

This year especially…like idk if people have blinders on or what haha. Kc,philly,cincy,baltimore have all been very up and down on offense.  KC is getting carried by their defense or they’re a .500 team right now most likely…unfortunately we don’t have that luxury missing all our best defensive players.  
 

the whole Super Bowl or bust because your qb is good mentality is kind of ridiculous…the best qbs in recent history not named Brady have won 0 or 1 or 2 in their entire careers. Mahomes will likely get more but time will tell how many more 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[Bookie Man]

[Buffalo03]

18 minutes ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

This year especially…like idk if people have blinders on or what haha. Kc,philly,cincy,baltimore have all been very up and down on offense.  KC is getting carried by their defense or they’re a .500 team right now most likely…unfortunately we don’t have that luxury missing all our best defensive players.  
 

the whole Super Bowl or bust because your qb is good mentality is kind of ridiculous…the best qbs in recent history not named Brady have won 0 or 1 or 2 in their entire careers. 

Exactly. There really isn't that completely dominant team this year. Some much better than others obviously. But asking if Josh is really that good because he has given us clunkers? Which great QBs didn't from time to time?

[frostbitmic]

Clearly he's the right Josh -

 

When he's on, he's as good as any QB in the game. Week 4 vs Miami was a masterpiece.

 

When he's off he looks confused, hurried, and makes bad decisions. I think he can focus too much on Diggs at times and misses open receivers.  In 6 games this year, he's had 2 good games, 1 phenomenal game and 3 off games.

 

Sometime during the off season, Josh said something that raised an eyebrow... he said that this year he'd be more focused ... When I heard that I thought,WTF, Why aren't you always focused ? ... Anywho, I much prefer having him in a Bills uni than in an opponents uni.

[starrymessenger]

As many have said when he's on there is quite simply nobody better. He's been compared to Favre based on his remarkable skillset and gunslinger mentality. The Bills are trying to manage his aggressiveness by having him execute from the pocket and that remains a work in progress. If he cannot continue to mature and develop above the shoulders within the offence they want him to run it may well be that the Favre comparison winds up being even more accurate. Favre´s career was up and down with incredible highs and quite a few head scratching lows, some mediocre seasons and some gut wrenching turnovers ( even when he was playing well).. Sometimes I get resigned to the opinion that that is what Josh will serve up rather than executing at a high level with consistency. Of course Favre is an all time great and fully deserving of his admission to the HOF. Allen is not less talented than Favre and with any luck he will win a championship. There is every reason to think that Allen can follow the same path as Favre. Of course Josh is a bright guy and while IQ, even football IQ, is not necessarily the same as QB processing speed, there is a chance he can actually get even better.

Mahomes is a great player but I'm not sure that with an offensive minded HC like Reid Josh might not have turned out even better than he is or with the Bills that Mahomes would be nearly as successful as he's been in KC. Mind you the Bills have so done a good job developing Allen. They haven't done to him what the Colts did to Luck, a great QB that will never make the Hall.

[Niagara Dude]

20 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

We all know fans who believe McD should be fired if we don't get to the Super Bowl when we have Josh Allen as our QB.

 

But Josh has given us some clunkers.  There are games when he bails out of the pocket when he doesn't need to, makes bad decisions with the ball, and delivers errant throws.

 

But are Josh's subpar games truly his fault?

Sometimes I put the blame squarely on Dorsey for poor play design and bad play-calling.

 

And when I blame Dorsey, McD deserves his share of blame too.  He made Dorsey the OC and oversees the entire team.  He doesn't escape culpability.

 

But sometimes I blame the receivers who, at times, struggle to gain separation.  (Though maybe that's more of a Dorsey problem).  

And some games I blame the OL.  Josh has spent much of his career in Buffalo scrambling for his life.

 

Of course, Beane deserves some blame, too.  He's never prioritized the OL.  You would think that when you've found a generational QB, you'd build a line to protect his health and well-being as well as give him time to throw.  Beane didn't do that.  

 

There are days when Josh looks like one of the best to ever play the game.  Other times, not so much.  So, I've been wondering how good Josh really is and who's principally to blame when he's not as productive and efficient as he 'ought' to be.  

13 Secs ,  end of story

[Einstein]

Maybe Allen saw this thread? 😂

 

 

[TheFunPolice]

I would say good.... to quite good

[ToGoGo]

2 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

This year especially…like idk if people have blinders on or what haha. Kc,philly,cincy,baltimore have all been very up and down on offense.  KC is getting carried by their defense or they’re a .500 team right now most likely…unfortunately we don’t have that luxury missing all our best defensive players.  
 

the whole Super Bowl or bust because your qb is good mentality is kind of ridiculous…the best qbs in recent history not named Brady have won 0 or 1 or 2 in their entire careers. Mahomes will likely get more but time will tell how many more 

They don’t know what winning looks like. How many perennial winning season did the Ravens or Steelers have compared to their SBs? 10:1? 
 

Pats and Chiefs are serious exceptions, and whether people want to ignore it or not, the Pats SBs have been tied to cheating. 
 

These fans play the game of extremes. If you are not as good as the very best, then you are no good at all. A projection of their own internal low self esteem. 

[billieve420]

1 hour ago, frostbitmic said:

Clearly he's the right Josh -

 

When he's on, he's as good as any QB in the game. Week 4 vs Miami was a masterpiece.

 

When he's off he looks confused, hurried, and makes bad decisions. I think he can focus too much on Diggs at times and misses open receivers.  In 6 games this year, he's had 2 good games, 1 phenomenal game and 3 off games.

 

Sometime during the off season, Josh said something that raised an eyebrow... he said that this year he'd be more focused ... When I heard that I thought,WTF, Why aren't you always focused ? ... Anywho, I much prefer having him in a Bills uni than in an opponents uni.

I think Josh gets by on talent alone and sometimes it works out. However, he is going to have to take his game to another level if team wants to win Super Bowl. So whether it is the questions on film study, diet, etc.. he needs to do whatever it is going to take to get to the top of the mountain. Him and Dorsey need to be in sync where the offense becomes the strongest component on this team. For McDermott’s defense you can live with middle of the pack if they are coming up with timely turnovers. However, if this team is going anywhere the offense needs to carry this team.

[ToGoGo]

49 minutes ago, Niagara Dude said:

13 Secs ,  end of story

The fault of Frazier and special teams coach. McD got rid of them both. 
 

A man who fixes the things wrong with his system.
 

That makes McD a GREAT coach.

[DuckyBoys]

Josh is elite.     McDermott/Beane and the rest of this roster are not

[Billl]

16 hours ago, Einstein said:

 

Allen is in his 6th season.

 

In Cams 6th season he was already toast. He had 19 TD’s and 14 INT’s that season.

 

Allen is so superior to Cam that i’ve never understood the comparison.

 

.

 

 

Josh has played 5 seasons.  2 of them were bad.  At this point in their careers Cam had won ROY, MVP, and a conference championship.  People forget how good Cam was because he played several years after being busted up, but if you only compare their first 5 seasons, Cam was the superior player.  He simply couldn’t maintain it due to the toll injuries took on him.  Hopefully the same thing doesn’t happen to Josh.

[SoTier]

58 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

They don’t know what winning looks like. How many perennial winning season did the Ravens or Steelers have compared to their SBs? 10:1? 
 

Pats and Chiefs are serious exceptions, and whether people want to ignore it or not, the Pats SBs have been tied to cheating. 
 

These fans play the game of extremes. If you are not as good as the very best, then you are no good at all. A projection of their own internal low self esteem. 

 

Well said.  Aaron Rodgers has won 1 SB.  I don't think that he's been to another.  That's as many as Joe Flacco and Nick Foles have won.  Peyton Manning, the best QB of his generation, only won two.  His younger brother, Eli, who was an excellent QB but not nearly as good as his sibling, also won two, including one against the Patriots on the infamous "helmet catch". 

 

Football is a team game, and it's well balanced teams -- teams good at all three phases of game -- that have a lot of luck on their side, particularly in terms of injuries to key players -- that win Super Bowls.   In the salary cap era, putting together a well balanced team when a team has to pay an elite QB is a very complex proposition.

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by SoTier

[Success]

23 minutes ago, Billl said:

Josh has played 5 seasons.  2 of them were bad.  At this point in their careers Cam had won ROY, MVP, and a conference championship.  People forget how good Cam was because he played several years after being busted up, but if you only compare their first 5 seasons, Cam was the superior player.  He simply couldn’t maintain it due to the toll injuries took on him.  Hopefully the same thing doesn’t happen to Josh.

 

I suppose the bolded is true if you ignore JA's improvement in years 3, 4 & 5.

 

By his 3rd year, JA was better in just about every aspect of the game.  Years 3-5 aren't really comparable between the 2 players.  Cam was only over 60% completion once.  He was only over 4,000 yards once.  He threw for fewer TD's than Allen in that timeframe, and his QBR was worse.  

 

It would be more accurate to say Cam was better in the 1st 2 years of both of their careers. After year 2, there isn't a comparison.

 

[GoBills808]

3 minutes ago, Success said:

 

I suppose the bolded is true if you ignore JA's improvement in years 3, 4 & 5.

 

By his 3rd year, JA was better in just about every aspect of the game.  Years 3-5 aren't really comparable between the 2 players.  Cam was only over 60% completion once.  He was only over 4,000 yards once.  He threw for fewer TD's than Allen in that timeframe, and his QBR was worse.  

 

It would be more accurate to say Cam was better in the 1st 2 years of both of their careers. After year 2, there isn't a comparison.

 

I love Cam Newton. Big Cam guy here

 

That said your IQ automatically goes up like 15-20pts if you put that guy on ignore

[BullBuchanan]

If a Super Bowl comes we will need a drastically better team and/or coach OR Allen will have to be playing like the best player in the league for an entire playoff run. The problem with evaluating him is that he's only capable of doing it one game at a time where a guy like Mahomes and even Burrow can put together multi-game stretches. In the case of Mahomes, he's on more than he's off and when he's playing like the best, it's effortless. For Allen, we've only seen him be the best when he's in Hollywood mode, and to no surprise, that's also when he's at his worst.

The version of Allen we've seen this year is championship caliber, but not with this roster. He's playing the overall best football of his career, and if they find themselves with the best record in the conference, he just might have an outside shot at MVP if he plays more games like he did against Vegas, Miami and Washington than he did against NYJ, Jax, and NYG.  He doesn't have the stacked team that Philly or San Francisco does, he doesn't have one of the best coaches in the league like KC or SF, and he isn't Mahomes where it just comes easy.

Allen can be anywhere from #1- #20 on any given day, but on average I put him at #3. When he's in Hollywood mode, he's more likely to be at the extremes which gives him a higher ceiling but a far lower floor. if they figure out the balance of Game manager Allen vs Hollywood Allen, or just call better plays, he could cement in at #2.

[ToGoGo]

I think it’s becoming clear after reading through this thread, that you need to have a distorted view of reality to think Josh Allen is not a great QB. 

[That's No Moon]

4 minutes ago, ToGoGo said:

I think it’s becoming clear after reading through this thread, that you need to have a distorted view of reality to think Josh Allen is not a great QB. 

Physically? Yup great. Mentally? It varies between average to dumb as a brick. 

[Generic_Bills_Fan]

1 hour ago, Billl said:

Josh has played 5 seasons.  2 of them were bad.  At this point in their careers Cam had won ROY, MVP, and a conference championship.  People forget how good Cam was because he played several years after being busted up, but if you only compare their first 5 seasons, Cam was the superior player.  He simply couldn’t maintain it due to the toll injuries took on him.  Hopefully the same thing doesn’t happen to Josh.

Certainly debatable but I think each of Josh’s last 3 seasons have been in the neighborhood of cams mvp season and cams mvp season was really his only great season.  If cam was at his peak for longer maybe the story is a little different

but 2015 was a pretty big outlier for him.
 

josh has put up mvp type numbers the last three years and he has no control over rodgers/mahomes absolutely going off lol. If we got peak cam the last couple years he likely doesn’t win mvp based on who he was up against 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Generic_Bills_Fan

[3rdand12]

16 minutes ago, That's No Moon said:

Physically? Yup great. Mentally? It varies between average to dumb as a brick. 

I cant agree with the range.
 But i do agree the range varies each week.

One of our biggest gripes is wishing to see a more steady Josh. Cerebral even.

 

But then folks are unpleased he is playing what the defense gives him. And thats when the Dorsey blame (for me ) fires up.

 Give Josh direction along with accountability, and create opportunities for success more often during the game.

Some games I have watched , I absolutely wondered where his head was at.

Also still see him growing into a more responsible owner mostly

 he might need 5 more years to get us to the Promised Land though  arrrggh

[Don Otreply]

23 hours ago, hondo in seattle said:

We all know fans who believe McD should be fired if we don't get to the Super Bowl when we have Josh Allen as our QB.

 

But Josh has given us some clunkers.  There are games when he bails out of the pocket when he doesn't need to, makes bad decisions with the ball, and delivers errant throws.

 

But are Josh's subpar games truly his fault?

Sometimes I put the blame squarely on Dorsey for poor play design and bad play-calling.

 

And when I blame Dorsey, McD deserves his share of blame too.  He made Dorsey the OC and oversees the entire team.  He doesn't escape culpability.

 

But sometimes I blame the receivers who, at times, struggle to gain separation.  (Though maybe that's more of a Dorsey problem).  

And some games I blame the OL.  Josh has spent much of his career in Buffalo scrambling for his life.

 

Of course, Beane deserves some blame, too.  He's never prioritized the OL.  You would think that when you've found a generational QB, you'd build a line to protect his health and well-being as well as give him time to throw.  Beane didn't do that.  

 

There are days when Josh looks like one of the best to ever play the game.  Other times, not so much.  So, I've been wondering how good Josh really is and who's principally to blame when he's not as productive and efficient as he 'ought' to be.  

You really worked this one, speculation based on more speculation, with no underlying factual foundation. 

[McBean]

On 10/20/2023 at 2:20 PM, Big Turk said:

 

This.  

 

1st ballot HOF QB. End of discussion.

 

/Thread

bingo

[Billl]

1 hour ago, Success said:

 

I suppose the bolded is true if you ignore JA's improvement in years 3, 4 & 5.

 

By his 3rd year, JA was better in just about every aspect of the game.  Years 3-5 aren't really comparable between the 2 players.  Cam was only over 60% completion once.  He was only over 4,000 yards once.  He threw for fewer TD's than Allen in that timeframe, and his QBR was worse.  

 

It would be more accurate to say Cam was better in the 1st 2 years of both of their careers. After year 2, there isn't a comparison.

 

Cam won MVP and made the Super Bowl in year 5. He was easily superior in the first two seasons of their respective careers.  If Cam was doing that today, there would be a debate regarding who was better.  The difference between them is that Cam fell off a cliff after his 5th season and we’re assuming Josh won’t.  

 

If the arm injury Josh sustained last season had been serious enough to affect him for the rest of his career, they would end up being thought of pretty similarly (other than the MVP and Super Bowl).  As it stands, it certainly looks like Josh still has a long career ahead of him that could ultimately include both of those things and very likely end in Canton.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Billl

[BananaB]

17 hours ago, 90sBills said:

Yup. They were also getting bounced in the first playoff game all but 1 year and never got closed to making a superbowl much less winning one. Mahomes changed all that from the time he stepped on to the field. 

 

Josh is a great qb and hopefully will take the Bills where they want to be. But we don’t need to diminish the best qb in the league to praise our qb. It’s ok to be 2nd best. 

Mahommes was the missing link to a team with a good supporting cast an offensive minded coach who made his fair share of mistakes in the to know what they needed to accomplish their ultimate goal. 
 

Allen on the other hand was drafted to a team rebuilding and a rookie  defensive HC who was bound to make some mistakes along the way.

 

Both great players in totally opposite situations.  I don’t think it’s fair to compare these players by Superbowls and MVPs. Jmo. 

[Billsfan1972]

5 hours ago, Generic_Bills_Fan said:

This year especially…like idk if people have blinders on or what haha. Kc,philly,cincy,baltimore have all been very up and down on offense.  KC is getting carried by their defense or they’re a .500 team right now most likely…unfortunately we don’t have that luxury missing all our best defensive players.  
 

the whole Super Bowl or bust because your qb is good mentality is kind of ridiculous…the best qbs in recent history not named Brady have won 0 or 1 or 2 in their entire careers. Mahomes will likely get more but time will tell how many more 

So if they don't get to the Superbowl or win it, then who is to blame?

 

Yes I think Josh Allen is the best player in the NFL,and yes held back by coaching.

 

They better win multiple with him as that should be the floor.

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Billsfan1972

[34-78-83]

18 hours ago, Einstein said:

I saw this today and couldn’t help but laugh. There is a bit of truth to it.

 

Still, no other QB id rather have. Ride or die with Josh!

 

 

Seriously... No meat to that claim whatsoever when the Bills have blown out more teams that they are "Supposed to beat" than any other team in football since 2020.

[LeGOATski]

All franchise QBs look terrible sometimes. There were times when terrible Bills teams made Brady look like crap.

 

Fans get this unreal expectation that a QB is going to consistently put up 300 yards and 3 TDs every Sunday.

At this point, we know what Josh has. It's mostly on the coaches now to get the whole team playing at a championship level.

[Aimee75]

I am not going to comment on how "great" Josh is. Most people with any sense or no bias knows he is elite.

 

My issue is it is 2023, and I am seeing a lot of fans longing for the offense of 2020 and 2021, when we had some talented old heads like Beasely, Sanders and John Brown. I AGREE! Those guys complimented Diggs and made our offense run smoother. Now it's just the Allen and Diggs show, and we don't have the reliable old guys anymore. Instead we have Davis and Knox who SOMETIMES make a great play, but often drop some easy passes, making Josh look for Diggs to get open instead of taking what's open because he doesn't trust the guys.

 

I feel sad that I don't think we have an offense/team that can win the AFCCG/Super Bowl and truly don't understand how we are still here. How? We went through some heartache the past few years and saw that needed more to get past some of the other AFC teams. What did we do to get us past Cincy and their loaded offense? Now we have The Jaguars, Chiefs are still The Chiefs, the Dolphins are loaded on offense(I know we dogwalked them, but we will most likely have to do that twice more).

 

Just feel like we are truly relying on Josh to make magic happen, while wasting his prime years. So disappointing.