The Official Fire Ken Dorsey Thread

[Process]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This is a reason why I don’t hate on Dorsey.

 

 

 

Still shots are generally useless. The game is played way too fast to make any determination from them. Also this is one play.

[BillsFan130]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This is a reason why I don’t hate on Dorsey.

 

 

 

I’m sure if you dissect every play, there will be 1-3 times a game where elite QBs don’t find the open guy.

 

I have first hand seen Mahomes not even look in the direction of wide open players

[Jauronimo]

10 hours ago, CLTbills said:

29 run plays. 2 were Josh Allen scrambles.

 

TWENTY-SEVEN called runs. 

 

When you have Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs.

And the run game was the only part of the offense that worked.  Did you need to see more of Josh throwing into double and triple coverage trying to find Stef?

[Shortchaz]

It seems like the shotgun runs used to have the added threat of josh running it (qb option/RPO) but they’ve eliminated that and kept the straight handoff which only works with the other components. Running out of shotgun is a gimmick/gimmicky play and only works as such. 

[Matt_In_NH]

10 hours ago, CLTbills said:

29 run plays. 2 were Josh Allen scrambles.

 

TWENTY-SEVEN called runs. 

 

When you have Josh Allen and Stefon Diggs.

You play the matchup.   They invited the bills to run and frankly if they had stuck to it earlier the game would not have come down to the last play.  SB25 was similar….take what they are giving you and when you finally make them adjust you can go the other way.  The chiefs will run it like this when the game dictates that.   Why is it ok for them but not the bills?   

[Nuncha]

33 minutes ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I give him credit for the halftime adjustment, but man I do not love him as an OC. 

He adjusts as slow as Christmas.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

1 minute ago, Nuncha said:

He adjusts as slow as Christmas.

Agreed with that too. 

[GreggTX]

His play calling is highly suspect. Defenses seem to know what he's going to do. Someone else needs to call plays -- someone that can adjust more quickly.

[HappyDays]

6 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

To these points..........I find it hard to believe that Dorsey,  who won a National Championship in college playing under center,  is the one totally behind all this shotgun bull####.

 

I think Allen must not be comfortable turning his back to the defense and is driving this remnant of Brian Douchebolls failures.

 

But under center is where he belongs.    He's not going to be Patrick Mahomes out there distributing dimes off-platform to 9 different receivers.   He needs the rhythm, timing and footwork that playing under center provides to elevate his game.    It's not a knock on him.......Tom Brady made a living doing it and he's the GOAT.    Getting under center largely negates the impact of the exotic fronts and that's why they are plowing thru them on the ground and receivers are coming open when they use it.   

 

I think the problem is we don't have the personnel to play a rhythm offense and that's what you need under center. Diggs gets open in rhythm, the other guys do not.

[TheyCallMeAndy]

2 hours ago, Trogdor said:

It's not a good throw. 5% Knox is some serious hyperbole though. The dude has 50/50 hands and is seriously overrated based solely on his friendship with Josh. If anything that's on Dorsey for dialing up a play to him when you can't afford a drop. 

Thats Knox THIS year, who’s dealt with a quad injury and a wrist injury (he was in a cast all week and limited participation in practice). 
 

I think if Kincaid was cleared, Dawson would have sat. 
 

Allen did straight up throw some bad passes to Knox last night. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by TheyCallMeAndy

[Buffalo_Stampede]

23 minutes ago, BillsFan130 said:

I’m sure if you dissect every play, there will be 1-3 times a game where elite QBs don’t find the open guy.

 

I have first hand seen Mahomes not even look in the direction of wide open players

Yes, but that’s because they’re using progressions and the read they made was likely correct. In this case the throw is to Diggs covered by 3 Giants.

 

So I’m going to guess Josh Allen will get a negative grade on this play by the coaching staff.

[Bangarang]

12 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think the problem is we don't have the personnel to play a rhythm offense and that's what you need under center. Diggs gets open in rhythm, the other guys do not.

That’s when scheme and play design matter a lot. You simply can’t expect the Hartys, Sherfields, and Shakirs of the world to consistently beat their guys and get open. 
 

Scheming things is not a strength of Dorsey. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Bangarang

[BananaB]

39 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This is a reason why I don’t hate on Dorsey.

 

 

 

People do realize the format of his progressions and what’s going on in the pocket affects what he sees and when he’s gonna throw the ball

Edited October 16, 2023 by BananaB

[BillsFan130]

7 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Yes, but that’s because they’re using progressions and the read they made was likely correct. In this case the throw is to Diggs covered by 3 Giants.

 

So I’m going to guess Josh Allen will get a negative grade on this play by the coaching staff.

It was a bad play by the looks of it, sure.

 

My point is all great QBs have bad plays every single game 

[26TrapDraw]

11 hours ago, Rigotz said:

Are we really proposing firing the offensive coordinator mid-season at 4-2 with a top offense?

 

You think throwing a brand new guy in there mid-season will go smoothly?

 

man…

Dude he is so predictable. Who on the planet didn’t know that play action slant was  going to Diggs. Why? Because he runs the same plays over and over. This is not high school football. Nfl DC’s are eating his lunch. No creativity no diversity. They couldn’t run a screen to save their lives (and with Cook who would thrive in space for the life of me can’t figure that one out). This is a top offense because of the players. It’s certainly not because of Dorsey’s stale repetitive garbage. 

Edited October 16, 2023 by 26TrapDraw

[HappyDays]

43 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

This is a reason why I don’t hate on Dorsey.

 

 

 

 

Here's another screenshot:

 

Defenses are doubling Diggs and no one else can get open against man coverage. The Giants secondary is pretty good but not that good. We just don't have the horses.

[Success]

Shotgun on the half yard line.

 

I repeat:  shotgun on the half yard line.

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

4 minutes ago, Success said:

Shotgun on the half yard line.

 

I repeat:  shotgun on the half yard line.

 

Nothing new. We’ve been doing it since 2018.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[JGMcD2]

11 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

Here's another screenshot:

 

Defenses are doubling Diggs and no one else can get open against man coverage. The Giants secondary is pretty good but not that good. We just don't have the horses.

Diggs was actually open there after Josh scrambled. He wasn’t Miami Dolphins open, but he was open, Josh just overthrew him. 

[BADOLBILZ]

40 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

I think the problem is we don't have the personnel to play a rhythm offense and that's what you need under center. Diggs gets open in rhythm, the other guys do not.

 

True......they aren't going to run a WCO rhythm passing game with bad hands Gabe running slants......but they don't have the right personnel at receiver to run 11 or spread out of shotgun either.........especially when it makes Allen himself less efficient throwing the ball.

 

But when they play 12 or put a 6th OL in and force the defense to contract it creates space for Diggs and Davis that flooding the field with receivers who can't get open(and rendering the RB useless) in shotgun does not.    

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by BADOLBILZ

[blacklabel]

Ugh. Go away. 

[Peter]

Quote

 

Why NFL Coaches Use Shotgun at Goal Line

 

For those of you who are incredulous that an NFL offensive coordinator might use shotgun at the goal line:

 

TD rates

 

PLAY SNAPS TD%

 

Shotgun QB rush 62 71.0%

 

Under center QB rush 215 68.4%

 

Shotgun RB rush 328 56.7%

 

Under center RB rush 1640 54.6%

[colin]

its gotta be easier to d us when we don't run the best (or tied) running qb in the nfl, can't do a screen play, and are allergic to quick slants.

 

you just avoid man D, disguise what you are doing, and let the bills call something stupid.  not to say we aren't good on O, we are near the best, but we are too ready to beat ourselves.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

One thing I loved about the play by the Giants at the half was we see that it’s not always the play caller. Normally you don’t see a coach angry at a player on the sidelines like that but QBs make checks all game long.

 

Those 2nd down and long runs people complain about I’m willing to bet most of them are Josh Allen making a decision based on the D look he’s getting.

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[All_Pro_Bills]

Just now, colin said:

its gotta be easier to d us when we don't run the best (or tied) running qb in the nfl, can't do a screen play, and are allergic to quick slants.

 

you just avoid man D, disguise what you are doing, and let the bills call something stupid.  not to say we aren't good on O, we are near the best, but we are too ready to beat ourselves.

I think the O is too predictable with formation and personal groups telegraphing way too much to the defense and their DC.  As an example, whenever I see Diggs run off the field for a couple plays my first impulse is to think the next play is a run.  If you focus on the run in those situations you'd be playing the correct percentage.  

[Alphadawg7]

11 hours ago, Comebackkid said:

Last year he sucked, but in the back of your mind you could hope it was just inexperience. I have always thought that hiring was a bad decision but I gave him a rookie year and offseason to see what would happen. So far there's been nothing this year that makes me think he has taken his play calling to another level

 

Same for me...Didn't like gambling Allen and Diggs prime on a rookie OC from the start.  And all Dorsey has done is show why those concerns by many of us were valid, he looks in over his head.  

11 hours ago, FireChans said:

Will you admit you miss Daboll now, just for me?

 

I will admit I miss Daboll in comparison to Dorsey...but Daboll showed last night what I hated so much about him too though and that he was allergic to running the ball.  How does he not put the ball in his best players hands in Saquon on the 1 yard line with 1 play to win or lose the game?  Bills defense is gashed in the middle with no Milano or Jones, plus we have been giving up one of the worst YPC in the NFL to RB's as it is the weakest part of our defense where our pass defense is one of the best.  

 

That was what I didn't like about Daboll...too cute in those moments...tries trickery rather than just line up and smash it.  Not to mention, he has Tyrod, why not playaction and roll him out where he could also maybe run it in if there isn't a pass open.  I hate the play call on the last play of the game by Daboll, not to mention on the key 3rd and 4th downs on the drive before where he turned it over on downs, he is throwing 30 yards down field instead of trying to get some of the yards at least on 3rd and then making 4th more manageable.  But again, low percentage throws on both downs that were long passes down field on a top flight pass defense.  

 

But...in comparison to Dorsey...I will give you that I miss Daboll.  

[BADOLBILZ]

2 hours ago, MasterStrategist said:

This is probably the best description of the situation.  

 

I know we don't want to put any "blame" on Josh, but he's more comfortable in the gun/wants to play recess ball more often than not.

 

Problem this year (not really a problem, but hampering offense), is the coaches have hammered into Josh head to NOT run. And ZERO designed Qb runs.  It's a good long term plan, but it's taking adjustments and removing some big plays from the weekly arsenal.

 

Back to being under center/rhythm. Part of the issue comes back to our #2 WR (Gabe).  Anyone else noticing him coming off the field much more this year in these situations?  He's just not a "timing" WR, he doesn't get into his routes/breaks fast enough.  So we essentially have Diggs, then a bunch of nobodies...which to me is partially why Dorsey is probably reluctant as well.

 

At this point, our best option is to make a trade for a another WR.  If not, it will be the same issues all season. 

 

Other knock on Dorsey is getting more creative...set up a screen for crying out loud, find ways to get Harty the ball in space/reverses, Cook in more passing routes.  Sometimes Josh isn't "seeing" the field well enough. But I've lost hope with Dorsey getting creative, it hasn't happened in almost 2 years.

 

Not to be insensitive, but Dorsey has to have some ADHD.  I know alot of smart ppl that talk just like him/mannerisms.  His playcalling is so sporadic/all over the place.  We all talk about "sugar rush" Josh.  Maybe we need to get Dorsey more calmed down.

 

 

 

Yeah barring an acquisition at receiver or some breakout from Dalton Kincaid I don't see a situation where their passing offense is going to look anything like a WCO rhythm passing offense even from under center.

 

But before virtually every team fell in love with WCO at some point and for some period of time over the last 30 years there were plenty of dynamic offense's that ran play action with 5 and 7 step (deeper) drops and threw the ball downfield more in rhythm.........and that's what suits Allen best with THIS personnel,  IMO.    A lot of what teams are using to combat the Bills passing game is defense that was adapted to slow down the WCO(as well as the cover 8 to address spreads) neutralizes the Bills passing game as well..........but is extremely vulnerable to running the ball from under center.  

[4merper4mer]

2 hours ago, BananaB said:

For some reason people think Josh gotta throw every throw perfect for a player to catch it. It was a bad throw but it hit both hands. You see that catch almost once a week around the NFL. 
 

Without Josh this team is screwed. He hides so many problems. Take away any of the rest of the people you listed and Bills will keep winning. Asking a guy to catch a ball that he got two hands on is not asking too much. That’s what they get paid for

So by your own words that catch is made once a week amongst 32 teams but Knox has to make it every time or it’s the ice floe?  By contrast any criticism of the 17th rail is wrong before it starts?

 

Clearly the Bills need Josh.  He actually had a mostly good game yesterday but pinning that throw on Knox is just flat out irrational hero worship.

[jethro_tull]

not on the train yet but i smell the diesel fumes.  his leash is getting tighter and needs to show something soon.  

[BananaB]

3 minutes ago, 4merper4mer said:

So by your own words that catch is made once a week amongst 32 teams but Knox has to make it every time or it’s the ice floe?  By contrast any criticism of the 17th rail is wrong before it starts?

 

Clearly the Bills need Josh.  He actually had a mostly good game yesterday but pinning that throw on Knox is just flat out irrational hero worship.

It was a bad throw. A very soft bad throw that Knox had two hands on, it was catchable. Allen gotta do better but so does Knox. It’s not unreasonable to expect someone to still catch that ball even though it didn’t have perfect placement 

Edited October 16, 2023 by BananaB

[BADOLBILZ]

12 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 But...in comparison to Dorsey...I will give you that I miss Daboll.  

 

 

Match Daboll against Daboll(instead of Dorsey) in that game and the Bills lose.

 

Daboll is less consistently productive than Dorsey..........and Dorsey is doing it with less skill position talent that Daboll had in 2020-2021.   

 

When it goes wrong with Daboll it's a sh!t show.

 

Watching Daboll put the worst offense that the NFL had seen since the merger on the field in the first half of the 2018 season and watching his utter stupidity in the Jags loss in 2021(and of course his very bottom of the league results at 3 prior NFL OC jobs) always seems to slip some people's minds.

 

[Alphadawg7]

1 minute ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

Match Daboll against Daboll(instead of Dorsey) in that game and the Bills lose.

 

Daboll is less consistently productive than Dorsey..........and Dorsey is doing it with less skill position talent that Daboll had in 2020-2021.   

 

When it goes wrong with Daboll it's a sh!t show.

 

Watching Daboll put the worst offense that the NFL had seen since the merger on the field in the first half of the 2018 season and watching his utter stupidity in the Jags loss in 2021(and of course his very bottom of the league results at 3 prior NFL OC jobs) always seems to slip some people's minds.

 

 

Dont get me wrong, I was often frustrated and irritated with Daboll for all the reasons you stated.  I just hate Dorsey more. 

[26TrapDraw]

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

I will say you just faced a team that knows exactly how you are going to plan to attack him. 
 

with Dorsey Vs Daboll 

 

So that HAS to be accounted for in the first half. 
 

second half whatever Dorsey did as an adjustment it did work just enough to get to 4-2. On to NE. 

Ok All true. But ask yourself if you get mad at some of the play calling. I sit there while watching and just go " why the f#$! are you running that garbage again. " it's only gonna get worse as the year goes on and DC's see his tendencies.

He has to learn to call better plays. One game where the offense struggles is an anomaly. 2 games straight is a concern. 

[Allen2Moulds]

I think we also have to account for the fact, that under Daboll, we had an inferior oline, mainly both guard positions. Teams knew we couldn't run it, and we still had success passing the ball at will.  I think the front office is to blame as well. They have continually failed to replace the Beasley position. They have invested more on TE (Knox big contract) and a 1st round pick on Kincaid, than on WR. Where is our return investment?

[Buffalo_Stampede]

It’s interesting because Allen is having his best year as a pro.

 

 

 

[BillsFanSD]

After the last two weeks, I'd say Dorsey needs to 100% get this offense turned around without further delay.  I would not object if the Bills decided to part ways with him regardless of how the rest of the season goes.  We can't afford an OC who throws away games against inferior opponents during our franchise QB's prime.

[bmur66]

I really think Josh Allen has matured and is doing his best to play within the offensive system. No more hero ball. Allowing playmakers to make plays and living to play the next set of downs when it’s not there. This puts it all on Dorsey as long as Allen is doing his job. This has exposed many offensive shortcomings. It will be interesting to see where it goes from here.

[JohninMinn.]

13 hours ago, 1ManRaid said:

 

Oh God thanks for reminding me about shotgun inside the 1.  We have possibly the best QB sneaker in history and I don't remember the last time a sneak was called.

On our own 1 yd line last year against Minnesota. Josh fumbled Vikings recovered for touchdown.

[MAJBobby]

23 minutes ago, 26TrapDraw said:

Ok All true. But ask yourself if you get mad at some of the play calling. I sit there while watching and just go " why the f#$! are you running that garbage again. " it's only gonna get worse as the year goes on and DC's see his tendencies.

He has to learn to call better plays. One game where the offense struggles is an anomaly. 2 games straight is a concern. 

Only time I yell at the TV about a play call is a Shotgun handoff in the redzone.  I am about done with those.  Rest of play calling you would be remised to scream about it at the broadcast angle.  wait until the all 22 is out and we will see if the route concepts are producing open routes.

 

Though I do question the progression build in certain route concepts.  Like is Diggs always the first read and everything comes off that?

[Low Positive]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Only time I yell at the TV about a play call is a Shotgun handoff in the redzone.  I am about done with those.  Rest of play calling you would be remised to scream about it at the broadcast angle.  wait until the all 22 is out and we will see if the route concepts are producing open routes.

 

Though I do question the progression build in certain route concepts.  Like is Diggs always the first read and everything comes off that?

I think that a lot of those "shotgun draw" plays are actually RPOs.